America is raising a bunch of sheep by PirateCat

This is an interesting theory that merits further study.

Therefore, I suggest that bring you to the third floor of a building where we can start shooting at you, to see how you react. I'm sure you'll be able to demonstrate this "bumrush" of yours without difficulty.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:46 PM

PIRATECAT

Well I do have a metal for my courage not all of us are victims, hippie. But before you start bashing me because I am not like you this is off the radio. Another right we are given the first amendment. Talk radio.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:50 PM

I didn't bash. I said it was an interesting theory and we should test it.

I don't have a gun, but I'm sure we can find someone here willing to shoot you without too much difficulty. Anyone?

Oh, and I see you've edited your initial post, since before it just seemed to be your own opinion. Just making sure that the person who made the point gets credit, I'm sure. Someone who has a medal for courage would be more than able to stand by his opinion after all, wouldn't he?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:14 PM

I kinda agree, in a world where everyone packed a gun and knew how to use it this guy would have been dead by number 3 or 4.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:26 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And in a world where everyone had a gun, how many more thousands dead would there be in a year? It's all a trade off. You - rather counter intuitively - think the answer to gun violence is more guns. I don't think that's the right track.

BTW, if people had been willing to swarm the guy, with or without guns, there would have been fewer dead.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:53 PM

PIRATECAT

Hippie boy, check your eyes when reading no one edited any post. I listen to the radio and more than one person called in saying the same thing. Same with the cops not rushing in. A nut with a gun has to be taken out either by the students or the police. Sirhan Sirhan got taken to the floor when rfk was murdered yet they didn't have any guns. I just don't get it. Our we sheep or men.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:04 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

So let me get this straight:

Young people today are wussy's (with a P)

All police are inept cowards

Fighting blacks (i assume you mean black people) makes you tough

Being a sailor makes you tough

Do I have all that right?

---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:11 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Pssst, I think you will find that DeskTopHippie is a girl, not a boy.

Oh and the in the case of RFK, he was subdued by an Olympic Gold medalist and an member of the NFL, both of whom worked as private security, and were therefore expecting trouble, but not before at least 6 people including the President were shot.

Now these athletes are a lot bigger, have faster reflexes and were in a room with their very good friend who was the target. Sirhan Sirhan was targeting 1 man, he was a known assailant and he was contained in a room.

These kids were hit from out of nowhere, the sheer confusion of the situation adds to the whole thing - oh and they were IN SCHOOL not in an area they would expect to be fired on.

FORSAKEN original

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:52 PM

SUCCATASH

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And in a world where everyone had a gun, how many more thousands dead would there be in a year? It's all a trade off. You - rather counter intuitively - think the answer to gun violence is more guns. I don't think that's the right track.

I think the problem is simple futility. Banning guns doesn't work, it's as ineffective as the war on drugs. Bad guys have guns.

We can't very well live as if life is an airport, with metal detectors, baggage checks and searches everywhere we go, either.

I think "good" citizens, who have passed a background check and received proper training, should be armed. Because the bad guys have guns, and we don't. Fight fire with fire, I say, it's futile to do otherwise. Not without sacrificing our freedom and making life one big airport terminal.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:59 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Yes, 99.9% of college "kids" (aka adults) are sheeple slaves, brainwashed and braindamaged from birth, illiterate, stupid and cowardly. As adults, they can be drafted into the military to kill and die using fullauto weapons and cannons at age 17, male or female or in-between. As US citizens or lawful aliens, they have the right to self defense by use of personal firearms, yet none of the victims wanted to exercise their right to life, which is what the Revolutionary War was all about. As citizens, they have the right to travel by driving a car without a license, yet they all waiver that right to freedom, with most never fighting and winning a simple bogus traffic ticket trial. Most "think" that Bush is their god on campus today, never mind that he's the Butcher Of Bagdad and terrorist mastermind,er, frontman of 9/11.

Perhaps they got a wakeup call yesterday? Especially if they were the lucky ones with police state death squads pointing guns at their heads threatening to blow their heads off at Virginia Tech, then thrown of the ground and handcuffed, as the real shooter(s) remained free.

So the official shooter was officially under mind control by "therapists" and psymeds.

Quote:

The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.

The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on one of his arms.

Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.

Cho was an English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service, the Associated Press reported.

Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when, or what the outcome was.

Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression. They are examining Cho's computer for more evidence.

According to court records, Virginia Tech Police issued a speeding ticket to Cho on April 7 for going 44 mph in a 25 mph zone, and he had a court date set for May 23.

www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070417vtech-shootings,1,17
6236.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

So the triggering event was a bogus traffic ticket, from the same police state death squads who stood down for two hours while the killing spree took place...

Quote:

"Man burns down city hall to beat a speeding ticket!"
–Weekly World News headline, November 3, 2001, reposted by CityNewsStand.com Top Ten
www.citynewsstand.com/TopTen.htm

If you want to know how to win in traffic court, without freaking out, visit:
www.piratenews.org/how-to-win-in-dragon-court.html

Quote:

VIDEO: UT Tower Shooting: Cop Ray Martinez

Ray Martinez the "official" hero of the 1966 University of Texas Tower Shooting who shot Whittman, the US Marine Corps tower sniper. This was one of the most infamous mass murder cases in US crime history, with suppression fire from the heavily armed citizens (ignored by the Media Mafia).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4419115466870548681&hl=en

In other news, Daniel Sunjata, co-star of the critically-acclaimed FX Network television series, Rescue Me and Tony Award nominated actor who has performed in film, television and in the theater and has recently come forward with his support of the 9/11 Truth Movement.

www.911blogger.com/node/7634

"You can't stop the signal. Unless you kill me with that sword. Damn I wish I'd bought a gun!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:03 PM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
These kids were hit from out of nowhere, the sheer confusion of the situation adds to the whole thing - oh and they were IN SCHOOL not in an area they would expect to be fired on.

Speaking from personal experience, there were few places I was less aware of my surroundings than Monday morning engineering classes.

I wouldn't have stood a chance.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:17 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Oh and the in the case of RFK, he was subdued by an Olympic Gold medalist and an member of the NFL, both of whom worked as private security, and were therefore expecting trouble, but not before at least 6 people including the President were shot.

RFK Sr was shot by his own Mafia security guard assassin. The tacklers tackled the "wrong" shooter, who was mind-controlled, who still has no memory of the event. Police destroyed all the evidence, including the "extra" bullets found in walls that weren't fired by Mr Sirhan (a Palestinian Arab Semite). LAPD and Secret Service had refused to provide security for RFK, who was leading the presidential race.

Lessons to be learned at Virginia Tech, which most likely has many govt contracts for psychiatric mind control experiments, who was probably providing "mental health counseling" and psymeds for the alleged shooter (a Korean citizen). College police stood down for two hours afterthe first murders, to allow the shooter(s) to complete the homework assignment.

Today the Butcher Of Bagdad Bush is lecturing at Virginia Tech about the horrors of mass murder, after murdering over 600,000 innocent people in the Jewish holyland of Babylon/Iraq, and the stupid sheeple will worship him as their child-sacrifice god Molech.

Bush Gang and Bill Clinton-Blythe Rockefeller performing "mock" human sacrifice to 50-foot tall idol of Molech/Lucifer/Satan at Bohemian Grove. That's a "live" human body burning as it screams in agony over the loudspeakers. Photo copyright Bohemian Club annual yearbook
www.piratenews.org/bohemian-grove-page1.html

"You can't stop the signal!"
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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA

While I wouldn't take it that far, I do think we've conditioned people against self-defense to the point of ridiculousness.

That whole cooperate with the assailant thing is moronic, especially when they decide to cap you anyway to avoid leaving a witness... and has it's roots in the days of yore viewpoint that in the case of rape a woman should just lay back and take it.. an offensive idea at the very least.

Fact is, criminals have come to DEPEND, even rely, on that cooperation in order to operate, which I see as a semi-incestuous bond between law enforcement and criminal.

The cops want you to cooperate and "be a good witness".
The crook wants you to cooperate and hand it over.

Am I the only one who sees a cause and effect circle here ?

I know I don't think like most people - but for me, if I think my life is in imminent danger, and have no quick avenue of escape, they'd damn well better do for me first, and even then not count me out for the few seconds it takes for the brain to run out of air.

The criminal DEPENDS on your cooperation, and every time it's given it reinforces that behavior... and this cycle has fed itself to the point of lunacy in our society, aided and abetted by a police force that does not want people defending themselves, because then they might question why we need such annoying and dangerous parasites feeding on our tax dollar.

I don't give that cooperation if it's only my life at risk for it's refusal, cause that's mine to risk as I please - nor is it in any way my responsibility to protect someone else, but if someone comes up to me and demands my wallet, they are going to HAVE to take it from me.

Most times, the rare few, that situation has presented itself, a flat refusal and/or immediate violence has sent them off looking for easier prey.

But again, I'm not most people... I really don't see an easy answer either, but I DO know that vilifying self-defense will never come to a good result no matter how folks dress it up.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:32 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
These kids were hit from out of nowhere, the sheer confusion of the situation adds to the whole thing - oh and they were IN SCHOOL not in an area they would expect to be fired on.

Speaking from personal experience, there were few places I was less aware of my surroundings than Monday morning engineering classes.

I wouldn't have stood a chance.

Yes, I felt the same way in engineering class, but I liked most of my teachers enough to complain to administrators when students talked publicly about killing all of us. And I'd have been dangerous with a pointy compass in my hand. Assuming, of course, that I didn't carry my concealed carry permited handgun into class, just in case, which is my God-given Constitutionally protected inalienable Natural right under the 2nd Amendment. "Necessity" is always a valid legal defense in any trial.

I was REQUIRED to carry a full-auto M-14 308-caliber assault rifle to jr high school class at Tennessee Military Institute, back in 7th grade. Damn gun was taller than I was. In US Air Farce, Uncle Scam paid me to build Gatling guns firing 6,000 grenades per second, and load nukes on supersonic bombers that tend to suck people into shredders.

But the average slave is too skeert to go to Walmart or pawn shop and invest $100 for life insurance.

Those are the same idiots who listend to the Port Authority Police order sheeple to stay at their desks at the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001. Or walked to the sports stadium in New Orleans after Bush bombed the levees in New Orleans, and 75,000 of those slaves are still living in a concentration camp beside Bhopal Union Carbide toxic waste dump in Lousiana, as their relatives still rot in 100,000 abandoned homes. Over 500 cops "disappeared" during that emergency, when they weren't looting stores and stealing guns from little old ladies and licensed gun owners in homes high and dry. DOH!

Police are now mere criminals, paid to protect the elite criminal kingpins running all local, state and fed governments. That's why copsters arrest over 100-million Amerikans every year for traffic "crimes", and perp summary executions without trial on 1,000 US citizens during civil service of process of frivilous civil lawsuits for alleged breech of voluntary civil driver license contracts. But cops are too chicken to arrest school shooters, who might shoot back. How many parking tickets did Virginia Tech Police sue against students, while the slaughter was taking place? Then police pointed guns at the bloody victims, promising to blow their brains out, and handcuffed them face down in the dirt. THAT'S HOW YOU TREAT SLAVES.

"You can't stop the signal!"
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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:35 PM

ALLIETHORN7

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And in a world where everyone had a gun, how many more thousands dead would there be in a year? It's all a trade off. You - rather counter intuitively - think the answer to gun violence is more guns. I don't think that's the right track.

BTW, if people had been willing to swarm the guy, with or without guns, there would have been fewer dead.

Problem with that is a bit tricky, though- since people have guns, no one would get ta shooting if they knew they'd be gunned down after the fourth shot. Like the fool who tried to rob a gun store. But, see, the less guns, the harder it is to stop the individual with a gun. So it is a trade off- but opposite of what you said. Or, maybe not. I ain't the one to repeal gun laws- although, ya gotta admit, people chafe more under more laws, and are more likely to break them.

Having fun yet?

-Danny

A Ghost is all that's Left,
Of everything we Swore we Never would Forget,
Tried to bleed the Sickness,
But we drained our Hearts instead,
We are... We are the DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:41 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Hey Pirate Cat...I cannot honestly contemplate the largess of your position, but I do know that if your'e being mocked by the fucking scumbag America-hater, Nazi motherfucker, psychopath asshole, friend of Bin Laden cocksucker Pirate News, then I'm on your side pal, 100%.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:44 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

SUCCATASH, and
ALLIETHORN7

Brazil reduced the number of guns and so reduced the number of murders. It worked for them, and they started with more guns, more drugs, more gangs and more violence.

You see there are, I think different categories of people with guns who shoot other people. In order of numbers (gun homicides):

- 'Unknown' takes the prize at 37%.
- Then there's arguments that spiral out of control and end up in shootings - that's 27% of intentional gun deaths.
- During commission of a felony is 16%.
- That's closely followed by 'other' at 11%.
- There's your everyday average gansta, who, though preferring to use guns is actually less than 10% of gun murders.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/circumguntab.htmfelony

And then there's the nutcases like in Scotland in 1996, who shot killed himself "after killing or injuring all but one of a class of 29 five- and six-year-olds at Dunblane primary school" and killing the teacher. http://century.guardian.co.uk/1990-1999/Story/0,,112749,00.html
While their killings are attention-getting, they don't make a big dent in the numbers.

I'd argue that you would open the door to 75% of gun killings (unknown, argument and other) to prevent the other 25%. It seems counterproductive.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:55 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Soupcatcher

I was thinking the same thing myself. From the desciption of the campus, it's rural, set away from any city. It's very spread out and very peaceful.

Whenever I was on the USC campus (I was using some equipment they had) I was VERY aware it was in the middle of a not so great area of the city. So I was pretty much on guard. But out there in green bucolic Virginia, away from everything, AND in an AM engineering class ... talk about being caught off guard.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:55 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Hey Pirate Cat...I cannot honestly contemplate the largess of your position, but I do know that if your'e being mocked by the fucking scumbag America-hater, Nazi motherfucker, psychopath asshole, friend of Bin Laden cocksucker Pirate News, then I'm on your side pal, 100%.

Homeland Security has been notified of your membership in AlCIAduh. The police state death squad will be knocking down your door any second. You might as well blow your brains out right now, so your Manchurian programming won't be deprogrammed.

Jean Charles de Menezes beheaded by 11 bullets from British police state death squad for the crime of buying a train ticket and sitting calmly in his seat. Cop shooter was promoted, later shooting another unarmed innocent man during a botched 100-cop raid on the home of innocent "terrorists".

"You can't stop the signal! Jongsstraw is a pussy."
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:02 PM

JONGSSTRAW

PN...go back inside the cave..Osama needs you NOW to lick his sweaty balls some more.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:13 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
PN...go back inside the cave..Osama need you NOW to lick his sweaty balls some more.

Before he died in a US military hospital in 2001, USAma worked for Bushes and CIA, Jewish code name Tim OSSman while picking up free SAM missiles from FBI in California. His brother Salem Bin Laden was Bush Jr's 1st business partner in ArBUSTo Oil in Texas, before he had a little boo boo flying his plane into a power line. His other brother Shafig Bin Laden was eating breakfast with Sir George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire, with Queen's Carlyle Group in Washington DC on 9/11/2001, then allowed to flee USA without a body cavity search at Gitmo.

Quote:

“The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it. I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons. I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders’ rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations.”
—Usama bin Laden (Saudi Arabian Wahabi Jew), CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/
www.public-action.com/911/oblintrv.html

"A CIA agent allegedly met with suspected terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden in July, while the Saudi underwent treatment for kidney problems at an American hospital in Dubai, France's Le Figaro newspaper reported Wednesday. Bin Laden reportedly checked into the American Hospital Dubai, a 100-bed, acute-care general hospital, July 4 and stayed until July 14. Besides a stream of local dignitaries and family members, bin Laden's visitors included a local CIA agent, the newspaper reported. The agent was widely recognized locally, Le Figaro said, and later told several friends of the meeting. Le Figaro said bin Laden had serious kidney problems, and reportedly had a dialysis machine imported to Afghanistan last year. Citing a March 2000 report by Asia Week, the newspaper said bin Laden's illness stemmed from 'a renal infection that has spread to the liver, and needs specialized treatment.'"
—Elizabeth Bryant, UPI, "Bin Laden treated at US hospital," October 31, 2001

"The goal has never been to get Bin Laden."
—General Richard Myers, chairman, US Joint Chiefs of Staff at Pentagon, 9/11 Press for Truth
www.911pressfortruth.com

"I don't know whether we'll find him, I don't know that it's all that important, frankly. So we get him, and then what? There's a temporary feeling of goodness, but in the long run, we may make him bigger than he is today. He's hiding, and he knows we're looking for him. We know he's not particularly effective. I'm not sure there's that great of a return."
—General Peter Schoomaker, U.S. Army chief of staff at Pentagon, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, "General says eliminating bin Laden not priority," February 23, 2007
www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/4578111.html

“The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11. Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.”
—Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 6, 2006
www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

Question: "What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?"
George Bush Jr: "Nothing!"
—White House Press Conference

Dick Cheney: "We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming."
— WhiteHouse.gov, "Interview of the Vice President by Tony Snow" March 29, 2006
www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html

Bush owned this Manchurian candiate, to deflect the media mafia from reporting on Cheney Impeachment, just like his daddy owned John Hinkley Jr who was arrested (now released) for shooting president Reagan:

Quote:

Articles of Impeachment To Be Filed On Cheney

Looks like he's reached his boiling point.

Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio), the most liberal of the Democratic presidential candidates in the primary field, declared in a letter sent to his Democratic House colleagues this morning that he plans to file articles of impeachment against Vice President Dick Cheney.

Kucinich has made ending the war in Iraq the central theme of his campaign. He has even taken aim at the leading Democratic presidential candidates in the field for their votes on authorizing the war.

Article II, Section 4 of the Constitution gives Congress the authority to impeach the president, vice president and "all civil Officers of the United States" for "treason, bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."

Sources tell the Sleuth that in light of the mass killings at Virginia Tech Monday, Kucinich's impeachment plans have been put on hold. There will be no action this week, they say.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/2007/04/articles_of_impeachment_
to_be.html
www.jonesreport.com/articles/170407_kucinich_impeachment_cheney.html

How CONVENIENT!

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:20 PM

JONGSSTRAW

I think I've figured out what happenned to PN as a child to cause him to become a fucking psychopath Jew-hating piece of shit...his mommy rejected him from her titties, and he was forced instead to nurse on her many heroin-addicted boyfriends' dirty dicks. And most of them were un-circumsized...yep, that's it!

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:41 PM

PIRATECAT

Its good to vent. Venting is good. Boy I am going back to the AM dial. Talk is good. I lived in Roanoke VA in 1990 to 1991. Great place, Blacksburg is south of there just a beautiful place. Sad so much death there now. Work with the airlines for 18 years never understood why the pilots didn't use the crash axe below the pilots seat on the righ hand side on 9/11. In 1970 an Eastern Airlines pilot shot dead a hijacker with his gun. Now I just think things have change that people don't understand that ya have to fight back. When I lived in Charlotte the closest bank to my house was robbed the dude was shot on the way out by a citzen who returned fire from the lowlife shooting as he came out. Never had any problems in that area since. But all them young people dead just seems something could have been done sooner.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 4:55 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I think you're missing the big picture. These kinds of events don't cause even a blip in gun-related homicide numbers. While there is good reason to second-guess what happened - and there will be plenty of that over then next few months - by far the larger issue is the vast number of gun-related deaths. There were 16,611 homicides in the US in 2004, 11,250 (68%) were gun-related. ( http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm )

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:25 PM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by trogdor1289:
You have to give PN credit he is very creative with the random nonsense he comes up with.

LoL!

This is all very entertaining!

-River

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:28 PM

SUCCATASH

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I think you're missing the big picture. These kinds of events don't cause even a blip in gun-related homicide numbers.

Rue, I ask you now to think back to Star Trek 3, the Search for Spock. Kirk realizes that sometimes "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

Math isn't the answer when something like this happens. Forcing good citizens to be helpless to defend themselves is too high of a price for statistical safety.

Meet my friend the straw man, who knows that there are far, far more car accident deaths than gun deaths, but no one is going to take away cars.

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Forcing good citizens to be helpless to defend themselves is too high of a price for statistical safety.

Agreed

Quote:
Meet my friend the straw man

I know him, he hangs around the creation-evolution "debate" all the time.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:19 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Video: Sheep Surfing the Apocalypse
www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=175116

"You can't stop the signal! But you might be too stupid to give a darn."
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

PNTV banned at Gitmo!
www.piratenews.org/hollywood.html

Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:52 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well, cars have good uses - we get from here to there with them. Handguns? Not so much.

As for life and death statistics, I'll go with the odds any day. Would I rather take my chances getting caught in a rarity or being in gang crossfire? That's right Bob, I'll take door number one. You both OTOH, prefer door one for some reason.

And there's more - see my post below.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:58 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

PirateCat

First impressions are only that, but here is the first impression you made:

Its good to vent. Venting is good. ... Eastern Airlines pilot shot dead a hijacker with his gun. ... ya have to fight back. When I lived in Charlotte the closest bank to my house was robbed the dude was shot ... Never had any problems in that area since. ...

You seem to prefer guns, death, violence as the only 'meaningful' response. Extrapolating, I would guess you were all for going into Afghanistan and Iraq. How did that work for you ? Can you see there might be other, more fruitfull answers?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Well, cars have good uses - we get from here to there with them. Handguns? Not so much.

Again, I disagree.

When you're 12 feet away from some coked-up homeboy with a knife who wants your wallet and your woman, being able to MAKE him go away, one way or another, is a "good use", and far more effective than thinking the law is some kind of iron wall that will prevent him from doing harm to you.

Reality is not an ideal place, and nowhere on earth is a utopia where you would be completely safe from harm.

Until that day comes, I myself plan to have the effective means to defend myself against it's ugly realities when avoidance is not possible or effective.

You're welcome to call the cops and try to reason with a strung out aggresor jonesing badly for a fix however you like, and if it works for you, more power to you - I simply prefer to have a more substantial argument at immediate hand, and resent any attempt to deny me that.

I file this whole argument we're having in the same class as telling women to carry condoms in case of a rape on the idiotic assumption that they could convince a rapist to use one.

I find the idea that you could reason with a coked-up or jonesing homeboy every bit as idiotic - the ONLY thing a sociopathic gangbanger understands is force, and the only thing they fear, if they fear anything at all, is imminent bodily harm, and if you can't present that threat to them effectively, you *will* be their victim.

This is something I know a bit about, mind you, and worth reading on the topic is this speech by Andrew Vachss, who's credentials in this respect are above impeccable.

http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/lifestyle.html

And while running into dangerous folk is perhaps a rarity in your own life, I drive a cab in a major urban center every day, often dealing with or even transporting some very unstable, possibly dangerous folk, and with a majority of them can get enough communication and understanding going that they leave well enough alone - but when you run up against one of these monsters in our midst, your ONLY recourse is force and the threat of imminent bodily harm - yes that is unfortunate, yes that is a damned sad state of affairs.

But it's also the truth, and denying it will only get you hurt or killed.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:23 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"You're welcome to call the cops and try to reason with a strung out aggresor jonesing badly for a fix however you like" This is something I've actually done. And it worked out well - we both walked away unharmed. And me with all my money still in my wallet.

(Some of these stories courtesy of my time with the county hospital and surrounding area.)

Frem, do you know any Canadian cabbies? I'm just curious if their jobs are as dangerous as US cabbies. Though I suspect not.

But to continue on that thought experiment, as SignyM calls it - WHAT IF there were a place that was extraordinarily safe ? Would that kind of life be for you ? Would you want to know why it was that way ? Might you want to make that happen in your life ?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PirateCat:
Hippie boy, check your eyes when reading no one edited any post. I listen to the radio and more than one person called in saying the same thing. Same with the cops not rushing in. A nut with a gun has to be taken out either by the students or the police. Sirhan Sirhan got taken to the floor when rfk was murdered yet they didn't have any guns. I just don't get it. Our we sheep or men.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

You're a liar. You changed your post after I replied. Which is why your second post says it's an opinion from talk radio when - according to you - you'd already said that. Your initial post didn't make any reference to talk radio at all. It just launched straight into bashing America's youth in general.

So tell me again how you expect American kids to stand up to a gunman when a tough guy like you can't even stand up for his opinion. Unless the tough guy wasn't you at all? Was it a talk radio caller who grew up "fighting blacks?" Is he the same guy who got the medal for courage?

Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:50 PM

Fred - you know what scares me more than a crazy person armed to the teeth walking around a building and systematically shooting people? A bunch of terrified, untrained people shooting back. Because in that scenario my chances of surviving are even lower.

I live in a country where it's illegal to bear arms and so far I have survived just fine. The only people I know who have been anywhere near a firefight are some friends of mine in the Gardai - the Irish police force - and it's pretty rare even among them. But if Americans absolutely have to have guns then I would suggest everyone carrying one should have a certain amount of hours mandetory training so they at least know how to handle one and what to do if something like this ever happens. They should get at least as much training as you get when you learn to drive, and they should have to pass a test too. I don't know if that's how things are done in the US. I get the impression it isn't.

Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Frem, do you know any Canadian cabbies? I'm just curious if their jobs are as dangerous as US cabbies. Though I suspect not.

Two, and not for love or money will they come here, lol - although that has more to do with how psychotic our "homeland security" KGB wannabes have gotten than how rough detroit can be, but that's certainly part of it, sure.

Quote:
But to continue on that thought experiment, as SignyM calls it - WHAT IF there were a place that was extraordinarily safe ? Would that kind of life be for you ?

Ironic, I grew up in the ghetto warzones of south baltimore, ok ?
Most of my childhood friends and associates are in the ground, and I have a lot of ghosts to carry about things that were mere survival then.

And now I live in this puny little burg somewhere between Detroit and Ann Arbor that's like mayberry RFD, believe me, it's not as easy an adjustment as you would think - in some ways I will probably never adjust, the phrase "damaged goods" comes to mind in best explaination of why - and to detail it would require intense technical discussion about how the developing brain is use-dependant and how permanent learned reflex memories can become.

I don't think the way most folk do, I know it, and adapt by actively working to make myself understood by folk who think "normally", most times I can get it across, sometimes I... just can't, they don't have the background or experience, I guess.

Also, there's the detatchment.. just imagine the difficulty of having most of your emotional responses so badly muted you can barely figure out what the heck they are ?

So, as much as is possible, sure, I've adjusted to living here, but some wounds never close, Rue.

Quote:
Would you want to know why it was that way ?

I know why it is this way, or rather, I know damn well, all too well, WHY most places ain't, and it would take more time than I have to explain in detail, but you've *seen* me touch on it - our whole society, at least in america, is a sociopathic and evil thing, and we take innocent children and forcibly pound them into a mold suitable for it, mentally, emotionally, oft-times even physically, and then act all surprised when they come out the other end despising all of humanity ?

Believe me, I know all too well, and have spent a lot of my life trying to mitigate it, warn folks of the looming dangers, etc - this has jack shit to do with guns, it has to do with how our society here in the US destroys all that is good, noble and decent in a child to turn them into a proper adult corpo-drone.

Like I say, PN's crazy, but he's not *THAT* crazy when it comes to our screwball society.

Quote:
Might you want to make that happen in your life ?

Not if it costs me the ability to self-defend, even in the absence of ALL danger, no.
In all truth I would prefer to never *have* to do such a thing, but as long as I live, I wish to have that option and will resent any attempt to forcibly take it because mentally I will then class the attempted taker in with the coked-up homeboy and view them accordingly, as a threat.

Quote:
Fred - you know what scares me more than a crazy person armed to the teeth walking around a building and systematically shooting people? A bunch of terrified, untrained people shooting back. Because in that scenario my chances of surviving are even lower.

Well yeah, that's idiotic - don't take me for one of these 101st keyboard brigade types, MY first instinct is to get the hell out of dodge, anyone else is on their own, screw em.

But if I have no clear avenue of escape, imma find good cover, get my back against a wall and ensure as best I can that *I* walk out of there alive.. you.. well, that's what I call a YOYO situation.
(YOYO = You On Your Own, buddy, not my problem!)

Quote:
But if Americans absolutely have to have guns then I would suggest everyone carrying one should have a certain amount of hours mandetory training so they at least know how to handle one and what to do if something like this ever happens. They should get at least as much training as you get when you learn to drive, and they should have to pass a test too. I don't know if that's how things are done in the US. I get the impression it isn't.

Good call, some states do require a certain level of training and classwork, some don't, and in most cases it's *not* enough, I completely agree with such a requirement, but the problem is that no one in their right mind trusts the US Government NOT to misuse it in such a way as to deny certain folk, minorities in particular, a CCW.

This is a case where industry self-regulation would probably be a better deal, encouraged by discounts to purchasers having passed a certified course, yadda yadda.

Me, I have extensive training and practical experience with my chosen piece, it's an old colt in a small and less respected caliber (380ACP), but it's been a friend and a comfort to me in several situations, having directly saved my life at least twice.

Life isn't a movie, if I feel my life is in imminent danger and I cannot effectively flee, AND I am not gonna clip some bystander behind the perp, oh yes I will shoot, and advance while doing so and KEEP shooting till they stop twitching, believe it.
At which point imma get the hell out of dodge in case the shooter has friends, if the cops wanna discuss it, they can talk to my lawyer, cause I ain't sayin a damned thing.
(Cops hate hate hate self defense, it leads people to question why we need them.)

But no mistake about it, I carry it as a last ditch measure, muchlike the puny and pathetic spare in the trunk of most cars, nobody WANTS to use it (hell most folk call AAA), but when it's down to having utterly no other choice, you'll be glad to have it.

I think I've made myself clear enough on this, and I reallllly gotta get off to work now.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
But if Americans absolutely have to have guns then I would suggest everyone carrying one should have a certain amount of hours mandetory training so they at least know how to handle one and what to do if something like this ever happens. They should get at least as much training as you get when you learn to drive, and they should have to pass a test too.

Certainly, in fact I think that training in the safe operation of guns should be mandatory, and if you can't demonstrate the ability to shoot somewhat straight under pressure then you shouldn't be allowed to own a gun until you can pass the test.

Quote:
I don't know if that's how things are done in the US. I get the impression it isn't.

Got $50? No criminal record? Here's your rifle, thank you come again.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 7:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You seem to prefer guns, death, violence as the only 'meaningful' response. Extrapolating, I would guess you were all for going into Afghanistan and Iraq. How did that work for you ? Can you see there might be other, more fruitfull answers?

You pointed this at Pirate but I'd like to give my take on it. Violence is not usually the best immediate course of action, sometimes it will be possible to talk your way out of a situation but if you say "I will not consider violence as an answer", or even "Violence will be the absolute last thing I will consider" then you are taking away an option and it's never a good idea to give up options when your life is on the line.

As for Afghanistan and Iraq, Iraq was a retarded move that we didn't need to take and shouldn't have taken, but Afghanistan was necessary, the Taliban was (actually is) an immediate threat that had no intention of talking it out, showing weakness would have simply invited more attacks similar to a shark smelling blood.

As for more fruitful answers, yes if I talk to the mugger I may convince him to not mug me, but then he goes and mugs someone else. If I use violence to detain him then he goes to jail and when he gets out will probably think twice about mugging a slightly overweight nerdy looking white guy since he might just have a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26W_Model_500

So by all means, if a rapist attacks you feel free to try to talk him out of it calmly, and then when that fails don't resist or anything, but be aware that you are simply emboldening him for the next target and allowing yourself to be victimized.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 7:30 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I've fipped back and forth on the gun question. I used to be anti-gun, nowadays not so much. IF we could ban guns and make it stick for everyone we'd have a safer society. The problem is

1) We have an ammendment that creates a right to have guns, and even registered guns are shifted to illegal activities, and

2) A lot of our law enforcement is half-assed. Just look at the number of people who drive 65+ mph and get away with it (speaking of auto deaths).

I agree with the need for more gun training. It occurs to me that if we also made a high school diploma a requirement for gun ownership we'd solve our dropout problem. And if you don't have the mentation or focus to pass high school, perhaps you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 7:54 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hi Fred,

I was noticing that in that one post violence was the ONLY solution he/she offered. Which is where I got my first impression.

I've gotten myself out of more than 1 seriously sticky situation by my wits alone. More than once it took recognizing I was being targeted and literally running away, once I had a guardian angel (not Sliwa, the metaphorical kind in the form of an alert but unarmed person) keep watch, once I talked the guy out of looking to me for his fix, once I went on the attack and scared off the potential attacker, and once it took literally standing on my feet while I got punched and pushed around 'cause it was the safest thing to do. (Since I didn't go down, the attacker soon fled.)

The only things that really scare me are: multiple attackers and attackers with guns. 'Cause I know for sure that if anyone gets close enough for me to reach them and I feel like my life is on the line - they aren't going to have any eyes left.

Which makes me wonder why a women could ever be forced to perform oral sex. Teeth - meet penis.

FightsDirtyIsAll

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hi Fred,

I was noticing that in that one post violence was the ONLY solution he/she offered. Which is where I got my first impression.

It's understandable, when this subject comes up those of us who are perfectly willing to use violence without a second thought to defend ourselves usually don't make it clear that doesn't mean that we are ONLY willing to use violence.

Quote:
Which makes me wonder why a women could ever be forced to perform oral sex. Teeth - meet penis.

Well would you bite the dick of a guy with a gun in your face? Sure you get the satisfaction of causing a lot of pain, but you're probably gonna die for it, not a good trade IMO.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:54 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well would you bite the dick of a guy with a gun in your face?

That comes in the category of 'people with guns' - one of the things that does scare me. But as to what I'd be willing to do with a gun pointed at me - I'm about 9 for 9 getting out of 'situations'. I'd certainly consider it if I thought the circumstances were right. I can imagine other things to do - pretend to faint and become an unwieldy object to manipulate comes to mind as useful. People who get out of situations - hostage situations, plane crashes and such - get out with luck and pluck. If it's not your day you're toast. But inevitably the lucky people who have time and who keep thinking and keep trying different things are the ones who get through.

--------------------------

That said, I'm VERY safety/ security conscious. I don't go into buildings or drive under/ on overpasses without checking out what I'd do in case of an earthquake. I always lock doors. I make sure my cell phone is charged and at hand at all times. I have motion sensors at home on either end of the hall - and the bedrooms off the hall have locking doors and window exits. I got my EMT license and keep refreshed on CPR. I ALWAYS stop for accidents to render aid when there is no on scene. I sit near the exits on airplanes and review the instructions. I even introduce myself and make deals with the people sitting next to me - I'll do this if you do that. And so on.

I don't consider myself a wishful-thinking space case. And I don't think we 'need' guns to make us safer. The statistics say otherwise.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:54 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Did I ever tell you about the time we were broken into, and I met the guy in my dark dining room early AM? I almost got my head blown off by a cop that morning when he mistook me in the dark for the robber. I later spoke to our downstairs neighbor, dear Mrs McClusky, the sweetest little old lady you'd ever want to meet. She showed me the revolver that she had... said she squeeezed the trigger but nothing happened so she looked down the barrel (showed me how) to see if there were any bullets in it. I had two pieces of advice: NEVER point the gun at yourself, and point the gun DOWN to test it. (We lived upstairs.) Well, we got the shortest-barreled shotgun that was still legal that day. And I was SOOO jumpy I almost blew the mail-carrier away the next day! If he'd known what was on the other side of that mail slot, he would've crapped on the spot. Since the robber was unarmed, guns had the real potential for a bad situation far far worse. Like the Keystone Cops, but armed.

And then there was the hole that got blown in our ceiling by accident on New Year's Eve. Let me tell you, guns and alcohol don't mix. After a moment of shocked silence, in which I pictured our townhouse neighbors dialing 911 as fast as their fingers could work, I yelled out "HAPPY NEW YEAR!"

I own a gun. I used to go "plinking" so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with them. But I've been in enough situations to reqalize that guns are not the answer, and in a lot of cases they can be the problem.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Let me tell you, guns and alcohol don't mix.

There's an enormous number of things that don't mix with alcohol, unfortunately our society is so obsessed with alcohol that everything that shouldn't be done with alcohol inevitably is.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:25 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
There's an enormous number of things that don't mix with alcohol, unfortunately our society is so obsessed with alcohol that everything that shouldn't be done with alcohol inevitably is.

So, let's look at college campuses. Rife with binge drinking. Add football games. Add frat parties. Add guns.

Everyone thinks that if only "someone" had a gun they could have taken Cho out. In the IDEAL world that's what would happen. But now lets assume that Cho is shooting. Someone or perhaps several someones take out their guns and shoot back. More bullets flying. Perhaps it becomes difficult to know who the original shooter is because TOO MANY people are shooting. Possibly "contagious shooting" takes over. Is that really a better situation?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:56 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I own a gun. I used to go "plinking" so I'm not entirely unfamiliar with them. But I've been in enough situations to reqalize that guns are not the answer, and in a lot of cases they can be the problem.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

Too bloody true. Look at the VA Tech shooting; guns killed thirytwo folk what didn't deserve it, and one what did.

Touching on what Rue said, though; it does no one any bloody good if people have a gun licene and you can't posess it in public. Sure, if you conceal it you should get arrested or shot, that's just stupid and asking for it. But, if you have people walking about, with weapons in the open, then most folk are unlikely to try any activities involing shooting at other folks. It's a balance.

Also, you said that 9/9 times you were able to use your wits to get out of a sticky situation? Well, Rue, what if, on the tenth time, you can't? When that guy is determined to shoot you or mug you or rob you or somesuch and he WILL NOT STOP UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD? There are some really fucked up folk out there, and no amount of resoning or consueling or consoleing will stop them. Now give them a gun. Now give them some type of trigger. Now you have Colombine. Now you have VA Tech.

Not to sound like I'm attackin' you, cuz I ain't, but I'm pretty sure that the crying mothers would have liked some folk there to have a gun or somesuch to STOP that guy before he got to the second spot.

Maybe I'm wrong; maybeif you give more folks guns, the murders will skyrocket. But, until that happens, we'll never know. And until somebody finds a better way to stop these psychos, I will continue to stand behind the idea that more folks should go around armed, just in case.

Do you mourn yet?

-Danny

A Ghost is all that's Left,
Of everything we Swore we Never would Forget,
Tried to bleed the Sickness,
But we drained our Hearts instead,
We are... We are the DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:11 AM

CHRISISALL

"...someone tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!"

Dumb planet...Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:18 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Which makes me wonder why a women could ever be forced to perform oral sex. Teeth - meet penis.

FightsDirtyIsAll

I have considered the question myself and have come to the following conclusion. If for some reason it doesnt work or at least isn't completely debilitating then the guy WILL kill you or leave you in a very bad condition. I think women in that situation cooperate in the hope that doing what the perp wants will minimise the chances of her own injury and death, once the teeth come out that chance goes away.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:27 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

What if "he WILL NOT STOP UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD?

If I'm shot from a distance, I'm toast anyway. If the person who is threatening me is unarmed at a distance, that's not much of a threat, is it? If my life is in danger and I am within arm's reach I will do ANYTHING I can to stay live - and my gun will not be very useful.

But there is more to your question. The problem is you're looking at one exceptional instance and trying to draw broad policy.

As I've said elsewhere, 75% of gun intentional homicides are "unknown", "other" and "argument out of control". By having guns - and I'd say specifically handguns - available, you're creating a 75% incidental problem over a 25% felonious one. If guns were not available, not only would you reduce the incidental gun homicide rate- which is by far the largest problem - you'd reduce the felonious one as well.

Further, look back to the DOJ post showing 100% rise in gun homicides that dropped precipitously right after the Brady Bill was passed.

Guns ARE the problem, not the answer.

But I know why people cling to them. It's the same reason people chose to drive rather than fly. Even though statistically driving is MUCH more dangerous than flying, people are more comfortable with risks under their (perceived) direct control. Other factors being equal, a society where people have guns is factually more dangerous, but people are comforted by having a gun which puts the situation under their (perceived) control. It's completely irrational and not a good reason to set policy, but that's why people make the judgments they do.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:28 AM