atleast 20 killed in campus shooting at Virginia Tech by Feity

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

atleast 20 killed in campus shooting at Virginia Tech

POSTED BY: FEITY
UPDATED: Friday, April 20, 2007 16:47
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Thursday, April 19, 2007 6:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Then don't go digging in some other thread to take a comment out of context and use it here as a personal slam.

I used that post of yours as an example of your violent insulting behaviour. Someone made a post and your reply, although, started off fine, ended with several personal insults... unprovoked.

So, how exactly did I take it out of context?

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

No, I *don't* wanna discuss it with you, you're coming across in a fashion that strikes me as completely irrational and deliberately, maliciously insulting from the get go, so I suspect your motives.

1) If you don't want to discuss it, why are you still posting?

2) The irrational, etc is just in your head. In fact, if you would have read my posts (as opposed to reading /into/ them as you obviously did), you'd see many well reasoned arguments.

3) What happens when one makes baseless assumptions again?

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I have made my position abundantly clear and reasonable in a different thread (the one relating to sheep, if you care), and I plan to leave it at that, yet you felt the need to take a shot at me long after the fact, and again when I suggested we agree to disagree on this one.

1) I didn't participate in that thread. So, how I was supposed to know about it is beyond me.

2) If you wanted to "leave it at that" then why did you post here (never mind the fact that you're still posting)?

3) Posting on this forum is not a priority for me. So, from time to time I play "catch-up". If you have a problem with that then you have a problem with *many* people on this board including SoupCatcher which did exactly that this very week. Quite frankly, expecting instant (or near instant) responses is an unreasonable thing to expect on this medium.

4) You never really suggested that we agree to disagree on this one. The post that comes closest to this here:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=28209&m=482784#482708

Where you personally insult me, then prove that you didn't read my posts, then compare the US to Rwanda (!?!?). You then go onto say you did something that you clearly didn't, then say that I attacked you for some "unknown" reason when it's obvious because you attacked ME personally (which I stated prior btw), then you continue to personally insult me. After that you /apparently/ do the agree to disagree, but intwine it with more personal insults, which rather nullifies the agree to disagree part i.e. you can't be civil and insulting in the same breath and expect it to mean that you're trying to be respectful and suggest that we both walk away from the argument. Civility does _not_ work that way.

I don't understand why you can't see that (at least) in this thread, you're a walking contradiction.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I am not Cit, and will not be baited into a thread-destroying tit-for-tat game here, you wanna continue to slam and insult, fine, be my guest, but you'll be talking to yourself, cause I got nothin left to say to you, period.

And now your insulting someone who isn't involved in our discussion here!?!? Are you serious?!?!? Do you honestly think that you can take the moral high ground doing these things?!?!?

I honestly hope that you don't reply (though I'm not at all convinced that you won't) as I grow weary of reading post after post of you insulting me acting as if you aren't. But, if you really want to, go ahead, I'll let you have the last word.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:20 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I'll let you have the last word.

I'll believe that when I see it.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:29 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

please show me one single example other than this

That was hyperbole as I've seen you fly off the handle before. It was just meant to indicate that I wasn't exactly surprised by your post.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

I'm more afraid of our government than I am any terrorist or sick freak who shoots up a school.

With your particular government, this is actually quite reasonable. But, you shouldn't be afraid of what they may do militarily speaking, you should be afraid of what they /already/ are doing with your civil liberties. Fighting for those now will mean a /much/ less change of bullets being exchanged later.

Basically, I don't blame you for preparing for the worst, so to say. But, why not fight for things to have the chance for things not to "come to a head"?

NOTE: Owning a gun (I don't have a problem with this) is very different from having a CCW license (which I /do/ have a problem with). Not sure if I made that clear enough above, but just in case, there it is.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

I agree that it should have been evacuated while dipshit was out mailing his manifesto to CBS or wherever it went. And I'm sure that would have been at least as successful as the evacuations during Katrina.

Um what? All they'd have to do is post notices on all doors that classes were canceled. Get the media to distribute the message as well (similar to a snow day: just saying canceling classes is done regularly). This could be done by campus security or the cops (depending on how they feel). Also, since campus security isn't exactly a small force, so getting the people that were already there to evacuate wouldn't have taken toooo long. Especially if they had some help.

That way, when students show up, they leave straight away, if they went at all.

At the very least, the death toll would probably have been significantly reduced. And at least it would have shown that the University actually cared about the students welfare.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Quote:
Here's another question for the US'ers here, what does how this situation played out say about the mentality of your society in general. I mean seriously, a shooting occurred and it was perceived so lightly that the day went on as normal when the perp wasn't found?!?!?

You want the truth? Actually, since I know nobody who died or any of their family members I really don't care about this incident at all. My first thought was "Oh great. More fodder for the anti-gun, anti-tobacco, anti-alcahol fascists". If I didn't live in America, I would hear about a lot more incidents like this because they're happening all over the world every day. Somebody is probably getting shot or stabbed or blown up while I write this. I don't care about these people. If somebody is coming after me or mine, however, I will do whatever is in my power to protect them. And if that meant firing a weapon that was deemed illegal by an ever increasingly fascist government, I will face that music after I've made sure that the people I care about are safe.

You know, I wasn't expecting someone to be so honest.

That is actually part of the conclusion that I came to. But, don't you find that a problem? Why not "protect your neighbour" if you can?

I think I've said this before, but I'll state it again, I have no problem with people owning guns. This can and is done under strict gun control laws. Hell, in Canada we have *much* more strict gun control laws than the US and people still can get a CCW license under appropriate conditions. Though I have a problem with that. IMO there really isn't any reason for people to need to have a weapon on them with modern police force, etc around.

Basically, I'm saying that the same freedoms can be had with proper gun control laws. That, tougher laws can keep "gun crime" down. It just has to be done properly. And I must say that having one state with strict laws and a neighbouring state not, is a recipe for those strict laws to not work i.e. they can be defeated with a few hour drive not to mention the likelihood of having resentment between states.

At any rate, I'm tired and have re-read this post too many times. I post it as is.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:30 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I'll let you have the last word.

I'll believe that when I see it.

Are you trying to stir it?

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:00 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
That was hyperbole as I've seen you fly off the handle before. It was just meant to indicate that I wasn't exactly surprised by your post.

Well you still said you were waiting for me to call you a terrorist and I don't have a history of calling anyone a terrorist. Fascist, yes.... Terrorist, no.

Quote:
With your particular government, this is actually quite reasonable. But, you shouldn't be afraid of what they may do militarily speaking, you should be afraid of what they /already/ are doing with your civil liberties. Fighting for those now will mean a /much/ less change of bullets being exchanged later.

This is true about my particular government, but most governments today are in bed with each other anyhow. Ours just happens to seem like the worst in the world because we're top dawg and everybody is always hating on us. I'm not saying the hate isn't justified in a lot of cases, and I'm not even saying that ours isn't the most guilty of infringing personal freedoms (Though I truly believe UK has that title), I'm just saying that our Governments shortcommings and lack of regard of it's citizen's civil liberties, or lack of respect for other countries and their governments and people at any particular time are always at the forefront of the news. We're easy to hate because we've been the big guy for so long. Just you wait. In our lifetimes, we'll both be hating on China the way we hate on my Government now.

I absolutely loathe the infringement of civil liberties our Government is taking all in the name of "public safety" or "for the children" or "for our health". It disgusts me. I can't even go to a strip club anymore in Cook County Illinois and smoke a damn cigarette. Sure, I can make a deal and get a BJ or even more off a girl who's never been tested for STD's and I can drink until my liver rots, but I can't light a cigarette. It's ludicris. And we've got the Surgeon General telling us that we're destroying the ozone layer and that we're killing babies by giving them SIDS. Great... I'm a baby killing planet killer now. Fuck that. Save it for the Humvee driving assholes who just knocked up their girlfriends and got an abortion.

Quote:
Basically, I don't blame you for preparing for the worst, so to say. But, why not fight for things to have the chance for things not to "come to a head"?

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is anything that we can do to change the situation. No matter how much we bitch, there is still plenty of cake and circus to keep our minds off of the real issues and protecting our civil liberties. Just like they said in 1984, you're never going to get the proles to rise against. I'm waiting for the next great revolution, though I'm pretty confident our government has figured out how to keep its citizens just happy enough that they put up with all the bullshit every day while their civil liberties are slowy eroding away. It happens so damn slow that by the time anybody notices it, they're usually 50 years old and nobody listens to them complain about how it used to be when they were your age. The only way things will change now is if things get bad enough that people demand change, and yes, that may involve physical retaliation. I just hope the next McVeigh has enough foresight to make sure the building doesn't have any children in it so they can't just paint him a monster and dismiss any real reasons that might actually drive somebody to do such a monumental deed. Not trying to idolize McVeigh here... I'm just pointing out that nobody knows why he did it, but everybody knows that he killed a bunch of kids. It's easier for everyone not to start asking why a seemingly normal american kid with a military background might do such a thing when we can just paint him a bloodthirsty lunatic child killer.

Quote:
NOTE: Owning a gun (I don't have a problem with this) is very different from having a CCW license (which I /do/ have a problem with). Not sure if I made that clear enough above, but just in case, there it is.

Well at least there is some middle ground here. Here I was thinking that you were just another person saying that we shouldn't be allowed to own firearms period. Considering the state of affairs in Chicago and Washington DC, this is obviously the worst thing you could ever do to try to reduce crime. When all the criminals know that the only thing stopping them from crime is a limited police force, they know that they have a much easier time getting away with whatever it is they're trying to get away with if they don't have to worry about joe citizen popping a cap in his ass when he climbs in through the kids window and tries to molest it/steal everything/commit a terrorist act.

The only possible way I would ever be in support of a ccw ban if police officers and any sort of military personnell stateside were also banned from carrying firearms as well. I still don't think I would ever be. I do not trust police or military at all and I don't have any respect for them. The fact that they can walk around armed and the possibility that big Gov might just be able to pass laws against citizens carrying a firearm if incidents like these rise scares the crap out of me. Like I said, I don't carry one, but here in Wisconsin, nobody on the street even the boys in blue know that by looking at me.

Quote:
Um what? All they'd have to do is post notices on all doors that classes were canceled. Get the media to distribute the message as well (similar to a snow day: just saying canceling classes is done regularly). This could be done by campus security or the cops (depending on how they feel). Also, since campus security isn't exactly a small force, so getting the people that were already there to evacuate wouldn't have taken toooo long. Especially if they had some help.

That way, when students show up, they leave straight away, if they went at all.

At the very least, the death toll would probably have been significantly reduced. And at least it would have shown that the University actually cared about the students welfare.

This is all very highly subjective. Remember, no matter how much media hoopla was surrounding this incident, not that many people died. Only 32 in a school campus which had 10s of thousands. There isn't any way they could have "ghost-townified" the campus in a matter of an hour or two and if this guy wanted to find more people to kill, he probably wouldn't have had to look too far. And where would all these people go with their free day? Probalby not back home for a day. They probably would have gone to a mall or resturants and the shooter might have just brought his game to the new ballpark before braining himself. Who's to say if any intervention such as this would have lessend the death count or doubled it?

I'm confident that the school took many of these factors and possible outcomes into consideration when it tried to handle the situation, if for no other reason than a very legitimate fear of multiple lawsuits against it. This country has more lawyer pigs than anyone in the world and I personally blame them for the state of affairs in this country. Maybe if there was an evacuation, the killer would seen a bunch of screaming kids and picked them off as they were running away? You could be right, you could be wrong. No way of telling short of Superman turning back time and doing it all over again and comparing the different outcomes.

Quote:
You know, I wasn't expecting someone to be so honest.

Well thanks. I might be a lot of things, and half of them I don't even try to deny, but I don't think of myself as a liar. I think out of politeness and fear of not being politically correct people have started to sugar coat everything and lie about their true feelings on a lot of topics. This, of course, leaves me with less freinds than many, but I believe the people that I choose to associate are like minded in that we tell it like it is and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Quote:
That is actually part of the conclusion that I came to. But, don't you find that a problem? Why not "protect your neighbour" if you can?

Not sure what you're talking about here sigma. I thought the original intent of this thread was about an entire school not protecting their neighbor. I won't tell the whole story again, but I stood up for my "neighbor" once and got a knife in the back, a busted up face and a $12,000.00 hospital bill. Unfortunately, because I wasn't an illegal immigrant, that hostpital bill was all my responsibility too. I have severly limited the amount of people I would chose to protect in a situation like this. There are, however, people in my life that I would take a bullet for. I just like them a whole lot more than I like myself.

One of them is co-running the 76th. You might know him.

Quote:
I think I've said this before, but I'll state it again, I have no problem with people owning guns. This can and is done under strict gun control laws. Hell, in Canada we have *much* more strict gun control laws than the US and people still can get a CCW license under appropriate conditions. Though I have a problem with that. IMO there really isn't any reason for people to need to have a weapon on them with modern police force, etc around.

Well, at least we're at a halfway point here. I wish I could say I can agree with you about the CCW license, but I just can't. I seriously do not respect the authority, motives or actions of our modern police forces. I still have images of 21 children's skulls on fire in the wake of the Government massicre of the Waco compound, and the dead college students from the Kent State Massicre, or photos of the INS pointing M-16s at a florida family because they wanted to send little Elian back home to Fidel.

I seriously can't figure out what they were doing that was so wrong in Waco that the ATF felt the need to go in with tanks and kill everybody without even trying to save those kids first.

Waco Massacre:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/

Kent State Massacre:

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/05/04/kent.state.revisit/

Elian Gonzalez Raid:

http://home.att.net/~elian/index.html

I want to state right here, that I'm not some wacko who believe that this is standard operating procedure for our Government or Military. It's possible that it is, but I'd like to have a little more faith in humanity than that. I would also like to think that a majority of the people who are responsible for the well being of the citizens of this country aren't heartless swine such as the folks involved and behind the scenes of these instances without a doubt were.

This is just proof that even the self declaired leader of the "free world" is capable of crimes against humanity, though not as high of a death toll as the holocaust, should never be forgotten all the same. I will not forget this, and it it every American citizens responsibility to make sure that these instances are never forgotten and that we never let them take away our freedom.

Benjamin Franklin said so.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:43 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Probably a different thread, but it seems like Cho was seriously picked on in junior high and high school.

I don't see other developed countries churning out mass-murderers from their schools quite like the US does. What is it about US socialization of males that makes murderers? (I have my ideas but I'd like to find out from other people what they think.)

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 11:37 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Probably a different thread, but it seems like Cho was seriously picked on in junior high and high school.

I don't see other developed countries churning out mass-murderers from their schools quite like the US does. What is it about US socialization of males that makes murderers? (I have my ideas but I'd like to find out from other people what they think.)

I got picked on a lot in Junior High. I was 74 lbs and I had glasses and braces. Kinda tough when your friends from grade school become too cool to hang with you and turn on you. Getting a fresh start in High School when my mom and step-dad moved was one of the best things that ever happened to me. I don't think I'll ever be "normal", but I've forgiven people for what they've done to me. I've actually hung out with some of them on occasion now that we're all grown up. I certainly wouldn't hurt any of them. If anything, I'm a machochist now and I would go like my Uncle and just take myself out when nobody was around.

Interesting question, although I'm not entirely convinced that the opinion that this happens much more often here is true. I've always said I've had a huge problem with the public school system in America. The main problem is you're giving only one solution for many different types of people, and then dumbing it down on top of that. Pulling so many children away from their families and thrusting them into social situations within which many people just don't fit. Double that with the dumbing down of cirriculum to the lowest common denominator and you've got a lot of very bored, highly intelligent males who are being ridiculed for years, and forced by the government to be a part of a society which rejects them and they reject themselves. I'm willing to bet that most mass murderers are highly intelligent and probably Mensa canidates. Unfortunately even girls are starting to become much more violent and it's my prediction that it won't be another year or so before we have our first school shooting by a female.

Then, of course, we have the problem that all of the media hoopla and discussion of this incident, and similar incidents, does nothing if it does not validate the action. Look in any paper and you'll see this Cho posing for the camera with his guns as if he were taking MySpace photos to share with his friends. Taking into account also the things I've seen him quoted as saying in his video manifesto, I'm willing to bet that he's been ignored by women his entire life, picked on by bullys and racists, and probably snapped when a girl that actually gave him the time of day cheated on him or dumped him. This was premeditated murder on a grand scale and this guy was looking to become famous for what he did. He made the photos, he made the video, and he mailed it out to CBS (or wherever he sent it, I can't remember), and look what happened.....

Infamy may be bad, but it's a form of being famous nonetheless. Just ask Al Capone.

So.... the only question now is how long until we have a copycat murderer who was inspired by all of this?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, April 20, 2007 12:53 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
[Unfortunately even girls are starting to become much more violent and it's my prediction that it won't be another year or so before we have our first school shooting by a female.

Wasn't one of the first school shootings done by a girl? I honestly don't know much about the case. Just that the Boomtown Rats had a song about it called 'I Don't Like Mondays.'

*EDIT* Found it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Don%27t_Like_Mondays_%28song%29

Doesn't mention if she was a student, just that she shot the kids with a rifle from her house.

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Friday, April 20, 2007 1:28 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I did not know that actually. Current events wasn't even on my radar until after high school so I missed a lot. My first experience with school shootings was the Columbine incident. I didn't even know that the boy from Pearl Jam's "Jeremy" video was real until a few weeks ago, although he didn't take anybody else out, he just shot himself in front of the class and the teacher.

Score another one for equality!

Just kidding Hippie. :)

Gotta laugh just to keep from crying....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, April 20, 2007 1:42 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

The incident itself happened before I was around, but I just remember singing cheerfully along with the song as a kid, not having a clue what it was about.

The first time I saw the video I was sure Jeremy was based on a true story. It was a while before I found out the details though. How did we ever learn anything before wikipedia?

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Friday, April 20, 2007 4:13 PM

ROJBLAKE

"Licenses are a permission slip to do something that is otherwise illeagal.
"""

Um, where exactly do you get that? It's NOT illegal to own a gun, nor is it illegal to carry a gun. It's just illegal to do these things under certain specific conditions. This is *very* different than what you just said."

First off, the staement isn't just in reference to firearms...if you drive without a license, illeagal, hunt without= poaching, illeagal, fishing etc.

The US constitution says the right to keep & bear arms shall not be infringed (abridged statement I already know) but the thrust is keep & bear means own & carry. In NYC you have to apply for a permit/license to buy a gun, in so called "right to carry states" you pay for a license/permit to carry a gun...keep & bear, one would conclude that a right (protected by the constitution for US citizens) that one has to repurchase from the state is a little ridiculous.

"Using this logic people who are poor become once again victims, serfs, & slaves (even if by other names)
"""

Saying things doesn't make it true. Hell, your not even justifying your position. "

I thought the logic would be obvious, a permit that one has to pay for would by its very nature restrict access (again to a protected right) to poor people. Pa right now is toying with the idea of charging a yearly registration tax of $10.00 per gun.

"Not once in all the years I've had a carry permit has anyone asked my about my level of training.
"""

Because they assume you have been trained properly. That's part of what a permit means. But, at the same time, just because you have a permit it doesn't mean that you have proper judgement, nor does it mean you're able to act (or act properly) under the extreme pressure similar to the one that started this discussion in the first place. Nor does it mean that by taking such action, it will make the situation better. In fact, by any reasoning, such actions would make the situation worse."

Incorrect assuption, I have a clean record & the money for the permit...training is immaterial, I have had training but I got that on my own.

"I have lived in a neighborhood where a good friend of mines apartment was broken into 3 times, & I got to sleep for 2 nights on the floor of the outer room with a shotgun for company because the police couldn't/wouldn't take action.
"""

Um, why are you even bringing this up? Owning a shotgun wouldn't be restricted under reasonable gun control laws nor would it be restricted to have it in the home. Also, the main issue here is the carrying a concealed weapon thing, which isn't exactly in your example"

You have missed the point, you got hung up on the hardware (it seems), the point is not that I have a shotgun, handgun, crossbow, or flare gun. The point is that the police (the great protectors that gun control advocates always site as being adequate) were unable/unwilling to do anything & thus the task fell to we the unwashed citizens to take up defence for ourselves.

"In the US because we do have a level of personal freedom everyone gets a free criminal act...& if it happens to be murder...
"""

What the hell are you taking about?"

Terribly sorry I thought it would be obvious, you can't prevent the law from being broken. You can deter it, but not prevent it. The police show up after the law is broken.
ex. A party in progress, a man walks in (he is invited) he reaches into his coat (not violating the law), he pulls a revolver (not there yet), he pints it at another guest (now the law in broken no police or bodyguards on hand) so he pulls the trigger...BANG (attempted murder)...the bullet strikes his target in the temple (murder 1). No police on hand & the guests aren't carrying weapons...they begin to panic...BANG...(another victim, law broken)...BANG...BANG...BANG...a guest tries to call the police on a cell phone...BANG (dies in attempt). The shooter ejects his shells & has a reloader (2-5 seconds later)...BANG...BANG, by the time the neighbors (or a guest hiding in a closet) calls the police & they arrive the shooter continues this scenario until there's a nice set of chalk/tape outlines & a dead shooter.

Same scenario with 2-3 armed guests & there are quite a few fewer outlines. Also if the shooter knows that there are likely to be 2-3 more armed folks about he's more likely to go elsewhere. (When did you ever hear of a shooter doing this kind of crap at a gunshow or NRA convention?)

"As to the world has changed comment...is it safer, does man no longer make war against his brother, do governments no longer seek to subjugate thier people, do men no longer kill/maim to posess women/land/wealth etc.?
"""

What the hell are you talking about?"

I'm sorry, the comment was that the world had changed & that laws & rights should be changed in accordance with the changing times...I listed thigs that as far as I'm aware haven't changed in the entire history of man...what part didn't you understand?

"Would you feel better if he drove an UPS truck packed with explosives into the lobby? (I can walk into any grocery store in the world & get the chemicals nessecasry to make 1 hekuva bomb)
"""

What are you talking about?!?!?"

I am talking about the fact that the debate focuses on the hardware...the guns. One does not need a firearm to inflict a great many casualties. Any grocery store I know can provide the nessecary ingredients for some pretty impressive explosives, & they aren't regulated or even questioned. In fact in the Columbine incident within a week the press pretty much dropped the fact that they had over 2 dozen explosives planted around that school..it was all about the guns.

Sorry I didn't clarify sooner I've been busy.

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Friday, April 20, 2007 4:47 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Interesting story in my local paper. Especially considering the far left bias the paper usually exibits:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BRAVE_BEAUTY_QUEEN?SITE=WIMIL&S
ECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Quote:
Armed Miss America 1944 stops intruder

WAYNESBURG, Ky. (AP) -- Miss America 1944 has a talent that likely has never appeared on a beauty pageant stage: She fired a handgun to shoot out a vehicle's tires and stop an intruder. Venus Ramey, 82, confronted a man on her farm in south-central Kentucky last week after she saw her dog run into a storage building where thieves had previously made off with old farm equipment.

Ramey said the man told her he would leave. "I said, 'Oh, no you won't,' and I shot their tires so they couldn't leave," Ramey said.

She had to balance on her walker as she pulled out a snub-nosed .38-caliber handgun.

"I didn't even think twice. I just went and did it," she said. "If they'd even dared come close to me, they'd be 6 feet under by now."

Ramey then flagged down a passing motorist, who called 911.

Curtis Parrish of Ohio was charged with misdemeanor trespassing, Deputy Dan Gilliam said. The man's hometown wasn't immediately available. Three other people were questioned but were not arrested.

After winning the pageant with her singing, dancing and comedic talents, Ramey sold war bonds and her picture was adorned on a B-17 that made missions over Germany in World War II, according to the Miss America Web site.

Ramey lived in Cincinnati for several years and was instrumental in helping rejuvenate Over-the-Rhine historic buildings. She returned to Kentucky in 1990 to live on her farm.

"I'm trying to live a quiet, peaceful life and stay out of trouble, and all it is, is one thing after another," she said.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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