It's not the deeds, it's the hate. by Fremdfirma

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Frem: in my experience "human nature" is more mutable and varied than you credit. I can think of about five reasons why children would do this that have nothing to do with the sort of "intrinsic" hate that you seem to think is at the bottom of this. FWIW I think you're projecting far too much of your own personal reactions onto these kids to be grasping the full story, which is most likely not a simple story of "mean authority" versus "spontaneous revolution".

For instance, I would lay at least part of the blame on violent video games and television shows that make it far more likely to visualize vengeance as a "solution" to a problem. Because honestly, no matter what the media moguls say, if you see the same thing over and over and over and over it DOES penetrate your brain and embed itself into your wiring.

There was also probably a "leader" in this group who is more than three standard deviations away from the norm, a 1/10,000 personality. Introduce a powerful personality into the group of young, learning disabled and likely more-naive-than-average kids and that spells trouble.

We have no idea of the neighborhood, either, which may be violent.

I doubt whether we'll EVER hear the full story, and we can speculate endlessly about why this happened and use it to ride our favorite hobby-horses for the next 100 posts, but I think we need to see more information before we can begin to make sense of the whys and wherefores.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 3:45 AM

Frem, this sounds like the result of a bad teacher to me. Teachers that basically hate their jobs AND kids should not be in the schools in the first place (although hand-cuffs? That IS a little radical

).

The semi-serious Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 4:49 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Frem, this sounds like the result of a bad teacher to me. Teachers that basically hate their jobs AND kids should not be in the schools in the first place...

First of all, you have to applaud the kids for their planning and organization. They set a goal, devised a plan, and prepared to carry it out. If this were a charity fund raiser rather then a murder plot then we'd all see this differently.

Second, I think we need to encourage group activity and, lets face it, anything that gets them outside rather then in front of a TV, video game, or computer is not all bad.

Third, I think that we should all be thankful this wasn't just another teacher-sex scandal. Its refreshing to see some kind of outlet for student teacher relations then statutory rape.

Fourth, I can't say I was very fond of pop quizes either. And standing on a chair is dangerous.

There is no indication this was the ENTIRE class. When they say group I seriously doubt it was more then a handful.

I don't see how we can blame video games, tv, movies, the war in Iraq, the evil government, racism, sexism, or anything or anybody other then the parents and peer pressure (and Bill Clinton).

H

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 5:44 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
For instance, I would lay at least part of the blame on violent video games and television shows that make it far more likely to visualize vengeance as a "solution" to a problem. Because honestly, no matter what the media moguls say, if you see the same thing over and over and over and over it DOES penetrate your brain and embed itself into your wiring.

Oh for cryin' out loud. We live in a real world where waterboarding is demonstrated on the nightly news, we justify the killing of hundreds of thousands of people to depose one "bad man," where O.J. Simpson murders the hell out of his wife and gets away with it, where hatred of the right people is considered virtuous and even questioning the wrong people means you're a "terrorist" and you want to blame A VDEO GAME??? I'll grant that games may demonstrate methods but they do not manufacture the intent, they do not create motivations! Signy, please, you need to do some research on child abuse, depth psychology, something. Would you diagnose cancer without any medical knowledge?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:27 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Try to wrap your mind around the level of hatred it would take to provoke this, and you'll start to realize that when I say they hate us, it's not a joke or rhetoric, they DO hate us, much of the time with pretty good reason.

I find that level of paranoia in an adult as frightening as this incident among children.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:30 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

For show and tell I once took a plastic syringe (from a toy doctor's kit), into which I had inserted a straight pin (from a sewing kit), to school to 'inject' the others kids in class because that's what you do with a syringe. At a certain intellectual level these kids don't know what they're doing, they're miming what they see on TV. That's also why they were so efficient with their planning - how many times had they seen this on '24' or other everyday 'entertainment' ?

As to what triggered this, it was described as a kid being yelled at for standing on a chair. We'll probably never know the entire story but experience can give us an understanding of what might be reasonable to consider. Round about 4 grade I had a nun who (looking back) was demented. She would berate, humiliate and randomly whack children. (Word got back to the parents and she was retired to wherever nuns go to retire.) Despite that, no one in the class thought about killing her.

It takes more than 1 bad teacher to traumatize children, and a large breakdown in communication for an abusive teacher to go under the radar for any length of time. To put the entire incident down to 'it's all the abusive teacher's fault' and the kids were only going to give her what she deserved seems to go beyond any kind of normal logic.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:34 AM

I dunno. When I can get myself back into my third-grade mindset (which isn't hard, believe me

), I see these kids just playing a game. A joke that turns into a dare where each kid keeps playing along, upping the ante to see who has the most 'nerve'. That doesn't mean it's not dangerous, but I don't think there's necessarily seething hatred at its core.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

To put the entire incident down to 'it's all the teacher's fault' and the kids were only going to give her what she deserved seems to go beyond any kind of normal logic.

I was taking a sarcastic stab there; I never thought of messing with a teacher myself, and I had some doozies.
More probably some abuse/neglect issues at home for these students mixed with ideas from unsupervised TV-watching (they may have believed the teacher to be part of a terrorist cell, and hey- the Prez says it's okay to torture them....!).

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:44 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh hey there Chris, is all

No, I was referring to any proposal that the kids hated the teacher for some entirely justified reason.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:50 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Each of you have touched on what could be contributing to this scenario.

Taking from each of you, this could be the chain:
1. Tough teacher. Possibly bad, but not yet had administrative action.
2. Dislike of teacher by well-known or troubled student.
3. Powerful personality and influence turn words into a dare.
4. With the help of today's media (music, games, tv, news...) and a rough parent, a dare's conclusion has to be more realistic.
5. Only a real plan and a real gun will prove how on top of things the kid is.
6. And scene.

The teacher needs to evaluate the discipline methods used in class. The parents need to better regulate what their 9 and 10-year children listen or watch. Good lord, ask them how their day was! The students need to learn revenge is never okay. No matter how good it feels or how morally right it appears...It's wrong.

Frem, I don't think it's us against them. I think it's the media against us. Sure kids have always had a little adult resentment, but it peaks during wars and hard times. Which means we need to be doubly vigilant.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

I was referring to any proposal that the kids hated the teacher for some entirely justified reason.

I think the Sarge has the best take in the post just above.

You gotta do it; it's a dare Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:57 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Oh for cryin' out loud. We live in a real world where waterboarding is demonstrated on the nightly news, we justify the killing of hundreds of thousands of people to depose one "bad man," where O.J. Simpson murders the hell out of his wife and gets away with it, where hatred of the right people is considered virtuous and even questioning the wrong people means you're a "terrorist" and you want to blame A VDEO GAME??? I'll grant that games may demonstrate methods but they do not manufacture the intent, they do not create motivations! Signy, please, you need to do some research on child abuse, depth psychology, something. Would you diagnose cancer without any medical knowledge?

HK- I could... and have... gone on at some length in other posts about the pathology of our "Every man for himself and God against all" uber-capitalist society, which teaches that anything is allowed- as long as you don't get caught.

I question nearly every day the pathology of the "Jack Bauer/ Chuck Norris" model of justice (which we see in Hero, Auraptor and Finn) which justifies any action as long as it's "for a good cause"... which inevitably morphs into vengeance, the insidious fantasy of "the hero" and the attendant single-minded and self-destructive individualism which undermines our one REAL chance of overthrowing our oppressors (as opposed to the fantasies that are shoved into our eyeballs every day). I've also posted ... as you know... about the need to treat our young with respect. The fact that we allow corporations to sell to our basest drives... sex, violence, and chemically-enhanced fun... in 30-second clips, and to portray life in the most idiotic way possible, all to sell us stuff that we don't need... is just one example that our culture treats NOBODY with respect, adults OR children. I brought up media violence simply as an EXAMPLE of the factors at work that are outside of Frem's framework. And yours too, apparently.

So save our outrage for somebody who might actually learn something from it, 'cause I've been there and done that already and I feel like I'm way ahead of you on this one.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 6:58 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I and a sibling - at the tender ages of +/- 3 - walked over a mile from home across US route 20 on a dare. It all started with daring to jump over the drain grate and into the street - where we were NOT supposed to go. And once that was done what was the next level dare ?

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I double dare you.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:05 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"which teaches that anything is allowed- as long as you don't get caught"

Just a slight quibble - anything is allowed, but only as long as it's for money. What isn't allowed is people actually getting together and cooperating to change society for the common good. Because that's just wrong.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:08 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Just a slight quibble - anything is allowed, but only as long as it's for money. What isn't allowed is people actually getting together and cooperating to change society for the common good. Because that's just wrong

Eh, too true.

There's just something creepy and unintepretable about altruism because, I mean, gosh, there MUST be some underhanded motive for it!

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Because that's just wrong.

It's Communist.

Not a Pinko Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:11 AM

Yes, rue. Kids plotting to abduct their teacher is clearly a guilty verdict on the twisted mentality of free market libertarians.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:12 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Not a Pinko Chrisisall"

I believe my color is pale purple.

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It's what you get mixing red, white and blue.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:15 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Yes, rue. Kids plotting to abduct their teacher is clearly a guilty verdict on the twisted mentality of free market libertarians.
SergeantX

No, probably more a product of 'anything for a buck' mentality and damn social consequences. Oh, wait, that just might be you, aping your social betters.

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Just kidding. It's only part of the problem.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Yes, rue. Kids plotting to abduct their teacher is clearly a guilty verdict on the twisted mentality of free market libertarians.
SergeantX
No, probably more a product of 'anything for a buck' mentality. Oh, wait, That just might be you.

Now kids, if you don't play well the nice men will have to cuff & waterboard you....

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:18 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"if you don't play well the nice men will have to cuff & waterboard you...."

The nice repubican men, Chris, is all.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:22 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Yes, rue. Kids plotting to abduct their teacher is clearly a guilty verdict on the twisted mentality of free market libertarians

Eh, I hate to burst your little bubble of self-importance, but you're not the ones in charge.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:23 AM

Actually, this situation proves Marx right yet again, it's all about class. The pressures of class struggle prompted this revolt.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:25 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Don't look at me man - my color is pale purple.

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Unless of course you mean classroom struggle. Don't think Marx had much to say about that.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:31 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

But on a more serious note SergeantX - why do yout think these kinds of stories, or stories about children coming in with guns to shoot other children and teachers, don't come out of Canada ? Or Norway, Sweden, or Denmark ?

Any thoughts on the evils of any socially-constrained government and how it creates this violent mindset ? (

not)

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:32 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The pressures of class struggle prompted this revolt.

I assume by that you mean the pressures of having a metaphoric d*ck shoved up our *sses every day, the actuality of powerlessness over the most important aspects of our lives, and the absolute callousness of our societal paradigm? Well then- yes, it did!

One of the things I find interesting about Frem is at the same time that he says that people are capable of "better" he also seems to be saying that HATE is our true nature. Seems contradictory, doesn't it?

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

One of the things I find interesting about Frem is at the same time that he says that people are capable of "better" he also seems to be saying that HATE is our true nature. Seems contradictory, doesn't it?

Nah, we're still animals on many levels; we can go either way.

AC/DCChrisisall

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well on re-reading I see that Frem thinks that kids are naturally humane, and that the perversity of this level of hate comes from adults.

So I w/draw my statement. I mostly agree with Frem.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But on a more serious note SergeantX - why do yout think these kinds of stories don't come out of Canada ? Or Norway, Sweden, or Denmark ?

Well, the U.S. loves its violence. You can't sit through an evening of television without it. Especially if you hang on for the nightly freakshow called 'the news'.

But, let's see, to get back to the argument you clearly want to have, I'd say these kinds of situations are the result of kids living the bulk of their days in unsupervised 'socialization' with their "peers". It's an insular world where the most important thing, by far, is their status in this group. It's the only thing that's real to them. They're never taken seriously by adults, which is why they don't even consider the possibility that such a game might lead to real consequences.

Ever read "Lord of the Flies"?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:47 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Nah, we're still animals on many levels; we can go either way."

Just another little quibble - we are always animals. Most of our motivations come from the 90+% of stuff going on in our brains we don't have access to. It's usually our inchoate motivations that drive our thoughts, not the other way around.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:51 AM

True enough, but it's the ten percent, the rational 'firewall', that defines us as human.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:52 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Well, the U.S. loves its violence. You can't sit through an evening of television without it.

Careful, or HK will lecture you!

Quote:
They're never taken seriously by adults, which is why they don't even consider the possibility that such a game might lead to real consequences.

Kids can only mentate so far. The average human forebrain is fully developed by the age of about 25. I think it's unfair to expect kids to think too far ahead.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:55 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"True enough, but it's the ten percent, the rational 'firewall', that defines us as human."

Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal. Robert A. Heinlein

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Careful, or HK will lecture you!

Fine with me. Maybe I'll learn something.

Anyway, I'm not saying TV causes it. It's just symptom. Our nation's been headed toward empire for a long time and that requires a population ready to 'kick ass and take names'.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 7:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Our nation's been headed toward empire for a long time and that requires a population ready to 'kick ass and take names'.

We're in full agreement on that one, Sarge!

Quote:
Anyway, I'm not saying TV causes it. It's just symptom

Yes, but HOW do you prepare a population to kick ass and take names? Among other things, you show it again and again and again and again.

Let me ask you this, Sarge- How many shows on TV (aside from family sitcoms) end with a conflict being resolved by negotiation?

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Our nation's been headed toward empire for a long time and that requires a population ready to 'kick ass and take names'.

I've talked to a lot of kids (read: 17-25) that reject all the phony militaristic nonsense- I'm hoping Empire will not get it's chance to strike back....

Hopeful Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:03 AM

FLETCH2

One paradox I find interesting is that on one level we realise that kids think differently and that they are vulnerable and capable of being lead astray by external influences --- that's why we go to such lengths to keep them from being exploited. Yet when something like this happens we are happy to assign adult motivations to it.

At age 7 I had a space program in my back yard, complete with a launch tower and mission control. If I did that as an adult I'd either be a lunatic or Richard Branson. Chances are that these kids had as much chance of killing the teacher as I had of following Alan Sheppard.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The average human forebrain is fully developed by the age of about 25. I think it's unfair to expect kids to think too far ahead.

Exactly! That's why I consider it folly to 'socialize' our kids by throwing them all together with equally immature kids and expecting them to sort things out.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
At age 7 I had a space program in my back yard, complete with a launch tower and mission control. If I did that as an adult I'd either be a lunatic or Richard Branson. Chances are that these kids had as much chance of killing the teacher as I had of following Alan Sheppard.

A voice of sanity! I'm playing along with rue and Signym and making an ideological mountain out of this molehill, but you're right. Kids never even consider that they might be taken seriously. The fact that they have been, in this case, says more about the maturity of the adults involved than it does about the malevolence of the children.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07 AM

FLETCH2

You are "socialised" by your family not your peers, the values you have you get from the folks that raise you... or at least that's the theory.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It's not ever really possible to know how "serious" kids were about something becaise I don't think even the kids know! But the fact is kids DO kill people, and it's not just the "child soldiers" of Africa.

Quote:
I'm playing along with rue and Signym and making an ideological mountain out of this molehill

I lay THAT one at Frem's feet!

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:11 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

SergeantX

On the one hand you seem to say it's how the kids respond to a bad system - it's their nature to be little monsters when left unsupervised in a group. (Your Lord of the Flies reference.) In that case you seem to be blaming 'the system' for putting kids in that situation. But when a similar system (say in Canada, Norway, Sweden or Denmark) produces better results you say it's not about the school system per se, it's about empire. In other words, it's about global class struggle, which you've already dismissed out of hand as a cause.

I would like to discuss this with you but I can't figure out what you mean.

Can you explain yourself in a way that is a little less self-contradictory ?

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You seem to be dismissing Frem's post that "they" hate us with a white-hot passion. Are you?

Heh.. well, yeah I guess. I'm usually happy to tag-team with Frem, but in this case I'm not really seeing it. I'd like to see what he has to say on the matter, though, so I'll wait till he has a chance to comment further. Not really sure exactly what he meant just yet.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
SergeantX

On the one hand you seem to say it's how the kids respond to a bad system - it's their nature to be little monsters when left unsupervised in a group. (Your Lord of the Flies reference.) In that case you seem to be blaming 'the system' for putting kids in that situation. But when a similar system (say in Canada, Norway, Sweden or Denmark) produces better results you say it's not about the school system per se, it's about empire. In other words, it's about global class struggle, which you've already dismissed out of hand as a cause.

I would like to discuss this with you but I can't figure out what you mean.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Well, they're two different issues. The unsupervised socialization is what makes this sort of thing possible, and the US's glorification of violence is what makes it more likely to happen here.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:20 AM

NOBLEBROWNCOAT

WOW. All i can say is WOW.
That and "Are you

ing kidding me.?"

I'm more disturbed by the reaction on some of these posts then the story itself.

As far as Frem's origial post. Agent got it right immediately "So some third-graders decide to hurt their teacher and all children "hate us"?
Have things gone seriously wrong somewhere between parents, teachers and children in this case? Yes, obviously. But you can't take one case like this and blow it up to encompass every child, parent and teacher everywhere."

In all the explinations and justifications given for why this happened no one seems to take into account that:
"The purported target teaches third-grade students with learning disabilities, including attention deficit disorder, delayed development and hyperactivity, friends and parents said."

Except for chris who states that these kids "should not be in the schools in the first place." I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that this was either sarcastic or a typo. To say that these kids shouldn't be in school??? What, just because they're classified? They all deserve to learn at whatever level they can learn at which is why we have classes and school specificaly for them. Don't take this as falme, it's a statement. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.
And same to you Hero. I'm gonna assume the majority of your response was sarcastic in nature; but blaming bill clinton? Really?

Finally, I don't believe in blaming media (video games, movies, TV, etc.) by themselves. These things have ratings for a reason and it's up to the parents to monitor what a child is playing/hearing/seeing but at the same time use these things as an opportunity to teach our children what is and is not appropriate. You kid saw something horrible or graphic on TV? Take the time to explain to them what the saw in language they'll understand and teach them difference between what is right and wrong and WHY.

The kids seem to have needs that have to be addressed (let us not froget that these children are "students with learning disabilities, including attention deficit disorder, delayed development and hyperactivity") and the parents possibly need to regulate their media intake a little better.

I could go on about this but I've ranted enough.

Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NobleBrowncoat:

Except for chris who states that these kids "should not be in the schools in the first place."

I said "Bad teachers" shouldn't be, to be a little more precise.

The mis-read Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:29 AM