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Originally posted by canttakesky:
]I might buy that if the upper levels toppled over as the building fell. But those levels pancaked perfectly, one on top of the other, and practically disintegrated while falling. What are the chances of that happening, without some sort of demolition job?

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I buy this story as much as I buy a Ryder truck full of fertilizer exploding the Federal building in OK City--by being parked in front.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
...just don't automatically assume that because someone has a title, they're incapable of being wrong.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Since many of the so-called hijackers have since been found alive and well elsewhere - what evidence is there to identify the actual perps?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Crediting the government with this kind of ability really is giving them far too much credit- and giving yourself far too little for falling for it!

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Solipsism (Latin: solus, alone + ipse, self) is the philosophical idea that "My mind is the only thing that I know exists."

Solipsism is an epistemological or metaphysical position that knowledge of anything outside the mind is unjustified. The external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist. In the history of philosophy, solipsism has served as a skeptical hypothesis. Solipsism refers to several world views whose common element is some form of denial of the existence of a universe independent from the mind of the agent. Solipsism is first recorded with the Greek presocratic sophist, Gorgias (c. 483–375 BC) who is quoted by the Roman skeptic Sextus Empiricus as having stated:

1. Nothing exists;

2. Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it; and

3. Even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others.

Solipsism syndrome is a pathological psychiatric condition involving dissociative mental states. It is a common belief among Developmental psychologists that infants are solipsist.

Author Robert A. Heinlein often toyed with themes of a solipsistic "multiverse" in various stories and novels. A good example is his short story "All You Zombies".

George Orwell's dystopian novel 1984 features a climactic metaphysical debate: the central character, Winston, argues against "the belief that nothings exists outside your own mind," or the "fallacy" of solipsism; O'Brien, his inquisitor, explains that "collective solicism" would be a better name for the totalitarian scheme, but would also be nearly the opposite of solicism in theory. Winston ultimately loses this debate, and learns that truth defined by power and not the human mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

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September 911 Surprise as seen on History Channel TV
www.piratenews.org/flight93.html
www.piratenews.org/911con.html
www.September911Surprise.com

"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks.”
—Usama bin Laden, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming."
—Dick Cheney, "Interview of the Vice President by Tony Snow", March 29, 2006

www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html

QUESTION: "Mr President, in your speeches, you rarely mention Osama Bin Laden. Why is that?"
GEORGE BUSH JR: "I don't know where he is. I just don't spend that much time on him."

"9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”
—FBI agent Rex Tomb, June 6, 2006
www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

"The goal has never been to get Bin Laden."
—General Richard Myers, chairman, US Joint Chiefs of Staff
www.myspace.com/911pressfortruth

OPERATION NORTHWOODS - the signed confession by US Govt for perping terrorist attacks in USA
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, heh heh heh, just so long as I'm the dictator, heh heh heh."
—Governor George W Bush, November 2000

"Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. Belief gets in the way of learning. The hardest part of gaining any new idea is sweeping out the false idea occupying that niche. Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count. A monarch's neck should always have a noose around it - it keeps him upright. It is better to copulate than never."
—Robert A. Heinlein, US Naval Academy graduate, author of book and screenplay, Destination Moon (1950), The Man Who Sold the Moon (1949), The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (Tim Minear is working on a screenplay based on the novel), Starship Troopers (1959), and Take Back Your Government (1946)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
I see a lot of comments about how tiring and tedious all this "questioning" is. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinions. But why are you on this thread? The thread is about whether Jesse Ventura is right to question 9/11. You don't think he is, you've said so, move on. What is wrong with the rest of us who don't find it tedious in discussing the issue further?

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Asking the right questions is a big step, I refuse to speculate without enough evidence to do so, however it's abundantly clear that the official story is bunk, and without real information due to unanswered questions, such speculation is gonna happen in many directions.

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Originally posted by citizen:
(not to mention expressed the opinion that those with a different opinion to you should not be expressing that here on this thread),

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
Where the hell was our Air Force on 9/11?

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How did people with no flight experience successfully target the twin towers 209 feet wide flying jumbo jets 150 feet wide going 500 miles/hr? Not once, but twice.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
(You didn't really expect me to go, "Damn Citizen, thank you for answering the question in a way that I've never seen before! NOW that you've spoken, my questions have all been answered, and I no longer have any doubts about the official story." Did you?)

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Remove support and it will fall straight down because in the absence of any other forces physics says it can only fall downwards.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Iceberg my ass!

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Originally posted by citizen:
No, what I expected was you to engage in the discussion you asked for, instead you completely ignored my response.

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Originally posted by citizen:
It's really easy to second guess decisions made after the facts are known, but to presume the military not shooting down those planes means anything is little more than confirmation bias.

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They did have flight experience, and it's easier than you think.

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When the jets hit they were not going anywhere near 500 mph. I ( and a billion others ) saw the 2nd plane hit...looked like it was going pretty slow after it made its' big looping curve around to get into position to hit the 2nd tower.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
It is hard for me to believe that people with only simulator experience could do it.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
I've read your post over and over again. I didn't respond because I don't know what to say. You say, "Yes, they are designed to fall that way." I can say, "No, they're not designed to fall at all." Seems like a waste of time just to say, "I disagree."

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I think it's been well documented the Saudi terrorists trained on flight simulators to learn how to fly and steer the jets.

When the jets hit they were not going anywhere near 500 mph. I ( and a billion others ) saw the 2nd plane hit...looked like it was going pretty slow after it made its' big looping curve around to get into position to hit the 2nd tower.

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Originally posted by piratenews:
No video showed any hijackers boarding any airliners on 9/11.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
It is not one answered by the official story. They sort of just ignored it.

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See, this is why it is hard for me to answer your posts, Cit. What can I say to that? No, it's not easier than I think? You make general opinion statements--how do you counter general opinions not backed by anything? I just got to let it go, you know?

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And simply telling me "no, it's easy" isn't what I call a convincing argument.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
You know, I wondered about that. Does anyone have any good info on just how fast those planes were going when they impacted the towers?

Cause in videos, they looked pretty slow to me too. But when I read about it, people say 500 mph.

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The government's calculations put the speed of the first plane at 494 mph, and the second at 586 mph. The MIT analysis determined the first plane was traveling 429 mph, and the second 537 mph, The Times said.

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The speed of the 767 in the
second impact has been measured at 500-590 m.p.h.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by piratenews:
No video showed any hijackers boarding any airliners on 9/11.

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So what does that really mean- that they wore IMF masks?

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"Operation NORTHWOODS may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. Operation Northwoods had called for nothing less than the launch of a secret campaign of TERRORISM within the United States in order to blame Castro and provoke a war with Cuba."
—James Bamford, ABC News, "Friendly Fire: U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba", May 1, 2001
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

"We could develop a Communist Cuba TERROR campaign in the Miami area, in other Flordia cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. Hijacking attampts against US civil air and surface craft should be encouraged. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be subsituted for the actual civil aircraft and the passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone. The drone will be transmitting on the international distress frequency "MAY DAY" message stating it is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by the destruction of aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal."
—General Lyman Lemnitzer, Jewish Zionist chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff at Pentagon, Memo to Secretary of War Robert McNamara, Subject: Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba - Operation NORTHWOODS, March 13, 1962
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

"The FBI has issued a BOLO on suspected terrorists driving a white delivery van from New York City to the Mexican border. The suspects are using ISRAELI passports. They are considered armed and dangerous."
— Emergency 911 Dispatch, BOLO (Be On the LookOut), All-Points-Bulletin (APB), City-County Building, Knoxville, Knox County, Tennessee, September 11, 2001, 11am EST -- Fox News Video

www.whatreallyhappened.com/hundreds.html


American JEW Adam Gadahn Perlman runs AllCIAduh
www.fbi.gov/page2/oct2006/gadahn101106.htm

"In Sept of last year, Adam Gadahn [aka Adam Perlman], the son of Jewish parents, the son of Jewish parents [who are on the board of directors of Jewish ADL] in Southern California, who himself converted to Islam, went on to become Osama Bin Laden's spokesman."
-Rep Jane Harman (D-CA), Jewish chairman, Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing, and Terrorism Risk Assessment, CSPAN, "Use of the Internet by Terrorists: Using the Web as a Weapon", November 6, 2007

"Tasks are typically divided into small parts, and no single person can complete any job alone. Moreover, people are generally not encouraged or rewarded for doing other than their assigned jobs or for undertaking actions independent of their supervisors. It is possible for individuals... to do their jobs well and still produce a deviant action. Courageous insiders may blow the whistle and alert the rest of us, or suspicious outsiders may take a careful look and reveal what they have found."
—Professor M. David Erman, PhD and Professor Richard J. Lundman, PhD, from college textbook Corporate and GOVERNMENTAL DEVIANCE: Problems of Organizational Behavior in Contemporary Society
www.amazon.com

"'Enterprise' means any individual, sole proprietorship, partnership, corporation, business trust, union chartered under the laws of this state, or other legal entity, or any unchartered union, association or group of individuals associated in fact although not a legal entity, and it includes illicit as well as licit enterprises, AND GOVERNMENTAL, as well as other, entities."
—Tennessee Code 39-12-203, Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations RICO Act

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Originally posted by rue:
The understanding I got was that with a more traditional foundation support structure the first few floors of the towers would had to have been (virtually) warrens of small hallways carved in massive foundations. Not wanting to lose real-estate they opted for the wall/floor support structure.

Perhaps other (modern) buildings fall in their own footprint b/c they too use the wall/floor support system for the same reasons. Or is that feature built-in in some other way irregardless of structure type ?/B]

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I'm not sure what you're asking? Buildings collapse into their own footprint largely for the reasons Fletch gave, but people often make the mistake of thinking of buildings as one large piece. A single large block won't collapse in its own foot print, a stone monolith can't, it has to topple over. People seem to make the mistake that a building is the same, that it's one big block that has to topple over, when in reality they're huge systems comprised of thousands of small parts.

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Solipsism (Latin: solus, alone + ipse, self) is the philosophical idea that "My mind is the only thing that I know exists." Solipsism is an epistemological or metaphysical position that knowledge of anything outside the mind is unjustified. The external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist. In the history of philosophy, solipsism has served as a skeptical hypothesis. Solipsism refers to several world views whose common element is some form of denial of the existence of a universe independent from the mind of the agent. Solipsism is first recorded with the Greek presocratic sophist, Gorgias (c. 483–375 BC) who is quoted by the Roman skeptic Sextus Empiricus as having stated:

1. Nothing exists;

2. Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it; and

3. Even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others.

Solipsism syndrome is a pathological psychiatric condition involving dissociative mental states.

It is a common belief among Developmental psychologists that infants are solipsist.

Author Robert A. Heinlein often toyed with themes of a solipsistic "multiverse" in various stories and novels. A good example is his short story "All You Zombies".

George Orwell's dystopian novel 1984 features a climactic metaphysical debate: the central character, Winston, argues against "the belief that nothings exists outside your own mind," or the "fallacy" of solipsism; O'Brien, his inquisitor, explains that "collective solicism" would be a better name for the totalitarian scheme, but would also be nearly the opposite of solicism in theory. Winston ultimately loses this debate, and learns that truth defined by power and not the human mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, heh heh heh, just so long as I'm the dictator, heh heh heh."
—Governor George W Bush, November 2000

"Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. Belief gets in the way of learning. The hardest part of gaining any new idea is sweeping out the false idea occupying that niche. Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count. A monarch's neck should always have a noose around it - it keeps him upright. It is better to copulate than never."
—Robert A. Heinlein, US Naval Academy graduate, author of book and screenplay, Destination Moon (1950), The Man Who Sold the Moon (1949), The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (Tim Minear is working on a screenplay based on the novel), Starship Troopers (1959), and Take Back Your Government (1946)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein

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Originally posted by citizen:
why hold me to a higher standard?

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
That's an easy one to answer, I am surprised no one else brought this up.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
That's an easy one to answer, I am surprised no one else brought this up.

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Well, that is the usual answer to that question. But it is not consistent with responses of pilots that I've talked to. They say it takes skill. Of course, maybe they're supposed to say that. But I am under the impression that while automatic controls can fly a plane, they aren't very useful in the kind of target flying used to impact the towers.

Of course, I am always open to hearing more opinions on the topic.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
BUT if you’re not taking off or landing or concerned about your passengers, then any idiot can do it.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
My question specifically is if someone with no real flight experience can target a building 200 feet wide going 500 miles an hour?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, he's not right. And I'm beyond tired of having this conversation. It has now replaced the all timers, like.....

Young Earth Creationism

Moon landing hoax

2nd Shooter in JFK assassination

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
BUT if you’re not taking off or landing or concerned about your passengers, then any idiot can do it.

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Are you a pilot? Is anyone here opining on this subject a pilot? Not discounting or dismissing your opinion, but it does help to put it in context.

Everyone is saying any idiot can fly a plane. But that was not my question. My question specifically is if someone with no real flight experience can target a building 200 feet wide going 500 miles an hour? This targeting is, in my opinion, much more than just flying a plane.

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
Finally, CTS, I must note that you have not replied to any of the posts that give you exactly what you say you want: a discussion of the technical issues.

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And yet you give a big THANK YOU to the one poster who at all agreed with you, (I’m not counting PN) though he gave you no facts at all.

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But what are you really asking for? Do you really want to talk facts, or are you only out to find people to agree with your gut level suspicions?

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There has been a response to this already on this thread - your assumption of no real flight experience is wrong. Four of the pilots - one on each plane - held FAA certificates as qualified pilots. There are witnesses who went to flight school with these people. Why do you insist on ignoring this?

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
All I've been hearing are explanations parroted from PBS documentaries.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
Finally, CTS, I must note that you have not replied to any of the posts that give you exactly what you say you want: a discussion of the technical issues.

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I replied to some, though not all. At some point though, there is nothing more to say. What do I say, "Yeah, I know about center of gravity, but the issues are more complicated than that?"

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There's just been very few "facts" in this thread so far. All I've been hearing are explanations parroted from PBS documentaries. In fact, I think your post is the first to suggest where to look for more technical information that might answer my questions. For that, thank you to you too.

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I evaluate information on its own merit--context of authorship is important, but ultimately, opinions have to stand on their own.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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There has been a response to this already on this thread - your assumption of no real flight experience is wrong. Four of the pilots - one on each plane - held FAA certificates as qualified pilots. There are witnesses who went to flight school with these people. Why do you insist on ignoring this?

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Well, there is flight experience, and there is flight experience. Obviously, your idea of flight experience is nothing like mine.

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Just because someone has a pilot's license in a single-engine plane does not mean he has flight experience. That would be like saying some 16 year old who has a driver's license has driving experience.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Remove support and it will fall straight down because in the absence of any other forces physics says it can only fall downwards.

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That's just it. How did the support get "removed"?

When the supports are weakened or deformed by heat as the official story alleges, buildings behave differently. It is when the supports are removed, say by explosives, that they fall straight down. At least, that is how I understand it.

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
and yet your idea of flight experience is an automatic trump card?

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(Why do you just skip Rue's post? Does it lack merit? Why? Seriously, I'm wondering!)

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any pilot can get centered on a runway, and yet you can't believe they'd hit a building? Do you see the problem there? They got it lined up, then they accelerated. Like a 16 year old driver hitting the side of a barn with a sports car. Why is that so hard to believe possible?

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