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Originally posted by Succatash:
Bush is using "Support the Troops" to get away with a terrible war. Human lives are worth more than this. It makes me sick.

I support my friends, family and all human beings. But I have a hard time separating "government" from "military" and I have a hard time supporting these institutions under current conditions.

I am ashamed and embarrased by my country's actions.

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Originally posted by Channain:

How can Bush support Rumsfeld?

What were those soldiers thinking? First, to do what they did at all, let alone take pictures of it.

Where are these pictures coming from?

What are we fighting for again?

Can someone explain this to me?

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Originally posted by Hero:
I know its hard to understand. We live in a new millenium mired in the hatreds and prejudices of the old. A thousand years ago the same religous ideas were being used to justify wars and atrocities. But there has been progress. New ideas are rising to challenge the old ways. Freedom, justice, equality of race and sex. These are the things we strive for and they strive to hold back. Have faith. We shall overcome, someday.

H

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1. Because Rumsfeld is a competent Defense Secretary and you have to back up your people when they are under scrutiny. If Rumsfeld leaves it should be because of a private choice the President makes, not because of public pressure but rather from inability to perform or desire to leave. But publically a leader should always try and support their team.

2. I suspect you can go to your local jail and ask any convicted felon the same question. They broke the law, their motives are not the primary issue.

3. The military conducted an investigation and is releasing the pictures, thats why Bush reprimanded Rumsfeld for not giving him the heads up before they hit the newspapers. The ultimate source is probably a couple well meaning whistle blowers.

4. Truth, justice and the American Way. Same as always.

5. I know its hard to understand. We live in a new millenium mired in the hatreds and prejudices of the old. A thousand years ago the same religous ideas were being used to justify wars and atrocities. But there has been progress. New ideas are rising to challenge the old ways. Freedom, justice, equality of race and sex. These are the things we strive for and they strive to hold back. Have faith. We shall overcome, someday.

H

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Originally posted by Channain:
What are we fighting for again?

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Originally posted by Channain:
How can Bush support Rumsfeld?

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What were those soldiers thinking? First, to do what they did at all, let alone take pictures of it.

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Where are these pictures coming from?

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What are we fighting for again?

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
But true freedom would also include the right to reject

" Your Truth, Your justice and Your American Way. "
B]

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Originally posted by Hero:

In the beginning all the world was America.

I think people need to understand that American ideals are not the sole property of those of us living in the United States. If the freedom is the natural state of Man, then those truths we hold to be self evident must apply to all Mankind.

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This country, this government has never claimed perfection. We claim only to be "more perfect". We recognize the importence of truth and justice. We seek to protect them and provide them to our people. Just who are "our people"? The answer is everyone, everywhere. The whole world has come here, every nation, every culture, every religion, has come to share in our vision. Sure we have our faults and bumps, but together we get by, we build, rebuild, and move foreward. That is the American Way.

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Do we have the right to inflict our ways on other nations?

Yes. Why?

Because the birthright of every child is liberty, not a suicide jacket. Every woman is born with the ability and God given right to be an equal to all, not a slave to men. Because rape, torture, and abuse are crimes, not instruments of government.

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Because instruments of mass destruction and terror are too dangerous to be left in the hands of those who would use them.

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Can you imagine where we'd be if our great experiment had simply failed. A world of slaves and tyrants locked in a cycle of war each more devestating then the last.

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Where's the hope in that?

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

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Because instruments of mass destruction and terror are too dangerous to be left in the hands of those who would use them.

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So far the US has been the only ones to use them, and the one who has threatened the use of them the most. I can understand wanting to have them to use as a deterent against the US

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Actually several nations have used WMDs during war. The US use of the A-Bomb in WWII, the Iraqi use of chemical weapons during the Iran-Iraq war and to suppress insurgents after the 1st gulf war, and the Soviets used of chemical weapons against Afghani/Foreign forces in the caves of Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation are just a few of the well known instances.

The Firefly CCG Web Site:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Bllm119/firefly_ccg_web_site.htm

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Originally posted by Zoriah:
I'm enjoying this discussion, but I have a newbie question: what is the 'straw man' in reference to? I have seen it mentioned before and don't understand its meaning.

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Originally posted by fireflywildcard1:

Where are the WMDs? That is the sole reason Bush started this war, he stated that as the reason in his State of the Union address. I would really like to see the pictures that the intelligence community allegedly showed Bush. Because so far, the forces in Iraq haven't found any. Nor have they found traces of such weapons.

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Originally posted by Coward:
Hero:
Is it really possible that you think of your country as better than the rest of the world? Is it really possible that you without scrutiny accept this as a universal truth?

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Believing that you are superior in every way possible is called nationalism.

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Believing that citizens of you country deserve better because your country is superior is called national socialism, not something anyone would generally want to associate themselves with.

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I have never claimed that any country is the greatest, best or "most perfect" in the world,

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I do not doubt your reasons, bringing democracy and equality to the rest of the world is a noble cause. Just never ever assume that your way is the right way. It may be the right way for you, but consider whether the Iraqi people are really better of without Saddam. Remember the months without water or electricity, the collapse of infrastructure and oil-production. Remember how the next governament will undoubtedly have a more extremist interpretation of Islam than Saddam, where women will be oppressed more than they were before, then consider whether it was all really worth it.

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I won’t say that I don’t support limited torture, because I do, but I have mixed feelings about this, principally because I’m uncertain as to the reason or extent of it.

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Originally posted by Zoriah:
Have you not seen the recent pics of the prisoner being deliberately threatened (while naked and blindfolded) and apparently bitten by a vicious dog? Or the dead body on ice that has numerous bruises and wounds to the face and upper torso (a death being investigated). Or the prisoner forced to stand on a box with electrical wires attached to him and warned that if he stepped/fell off the box he would be electrocuted.

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Originally posted by Zoriah:
I'm sorry but this is TORTURE. Torture is not only a physical abuse, but also mental. Check out the Geneva convention, I believe that mental torture of prisoners is also deemed unlawful.

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And the Geneva Convention applies to declared wars, and uniformed soldiers and innocent civilians. It does not applied to non-uniformed combatants without a recognizable banner.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
So if I grabbed a couple of your " civilian contractors " or " mercenarys "

How much torture can I put them through before you'd object?

Hey just looking to help out the guys on my side so that makes it ok, right ?

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Originally posted by Zoriah:
For your perusal Finn mac Cumhal

The International Red Cross details Abuse claims made in report to US and UK officials in February
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3700975.stm

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Originally posted by Zoriah:


The allegations include-

Prisoners were kept naked in cells, in darkness and without facilities

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Originally posted by Zoriah:



Prisoners were held for prolonged solitary confinement in cells with no daylight

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Originally posted by Zoriah:


The actions of coalition forces in arresting suspects appeared to go beyond any legitimate use of force

Prisoners were beaten, in one case leading to death

Soldiers fired on unarmed prisoners from watchtowers, killing some

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Originally posted by Zoriah:


The ill-treatment was widely tolerated, especially with regard to extracting information from Iraqis

Methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence to gain confessions

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Originally posted by Zoriah:



The report also says some troops told the Red Cross that 70% to 90% of those detained had been arrested by mistake.

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Originally posted by Zoriah:



Amnesty International claims that UK troops shot civilians while under no threat
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3701351.stm

Some Highlights: British troops have been involved in the deaths of 37 civilians since 1 May 2003, Amnesty says.

Only half of these are being fully investigated by the armed forces.

The most tragic case in the report was that of eight-year-old girl Hanan Saleh Matrud, alleged by her family to have been killed by British soldiers who had been stoned by mobs. No investigation was made.

Amnesty highlights the case of Hassan Hameed Naser, killed as he walked near a demonstration where stones were being thrown at a British armoured vehicle. No investigation was made.




CNN's latest article on the investigation into the Abuse by Maj Gen. Taguba
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/11/politics.abuse.main/index.ht
ml

Note this little tidbit:

Stephen A. Cambone, undersecretary of defense -
Cambone said that the U.S. government "made clear that the Geneva Conventions apply to our activities in that country" and said that "members of our armed forces should have been aware of that.



BBC's report of Taguba:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3703751.stm

Highlight - Gen Taguba told the committee: "A few soldiers and civilians conspired to abuse and conduct egregious acts of violence against detainees and other civilians outside the bounds of international laws and the Geneva Convention."

Detainees at Abu Ghraib prison were forced to commit sexual acts, were threatened with torture, rape or attack by dogs, and were hidden from Red Cross visits, "in violation of international law", according to his 53-page report which focused on blocks where interrogation took place.




And as for pics - check out the New Yorker
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2

Some graphic detail on a few of the images as described by the publication:

Another image shows that the man, an Iraqi prisoner, is naked. His hands are clasped behind his neck and he is leaning against the door to a cell, contorted with terror, as the dogs bark a few feet away. Other photographs show the dogs straining at their leashes and snarling at the prisoner. In another, taken a few minutes later, the Iraqi is lying on the ground, writhing in pain, with a soldier sitting on top of him, knee pressed to his back. Blood is streaming from the inmate’s leg. Another photograph is a closeup of the naked prisoner, from his waist to his ankles, lying on the floor. On his right thigh is what appears to be a bite or a deep scratch. There is another, larger wound on his left leg, covered in blood.

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Originally posted by Zoriah:



Don't take my word for it though, how about President Bush himself:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/11/1084041400746.html

"The president's reaction was one of deep disgust and disbelief that anyone who wears our uniform would engage in such shameful and appalling acts," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

"It does not represent our United States military and it does not represent the United States of America."

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Originally posted by Zoriah:



Bush said in his public remarks: "The conduct that has come to light is an insult to the Iraqi people and an affront to the most basic standards of morality and decency."

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Originally posted by Zoriah:
Geee I guess a NAKED unarmed terrified man surrounded by multiple guards and 2 barking dogs was posing some kind of threat hmmm? Have you actually looked at that picture?

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Originally posted by Zoriah:
Geee I guess a NAKED unarmed terrified man surrounded by multiple guards and 2 barking dogs was posing some kind of threat hmmm? Have you actually looked at that picture?

The New Yorker didn't publish the ones that show the same man wounded and bleeding and being sat on. I wish they had, I hope that all the torture pictures come out so that nothing can be hidden behind.

I abhor what Saddam and his cronies got up to when he was in power, and I abhor this blatant misuse of power as well.

Cruelty, barbarism, and the abuse of power over the weak and the helpless should be universally condemned no matter which side the perpetrators are on.

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Originally posted by Zoriah:


Yes, I suspect there will be the usual absolution of blame from the higher ups. The lowly reservists and other personnel who are charged will likely bear the brunt of it and be labelled as 'bad apples'.

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Originally posted by Zoriah:


Some tidbits from the Taguba Report which point to the fact that the prison was overcrowded with detainees of which many were deemed no longer a threat but where still being detained:

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Originally posted by Zoriah:


"33. The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.” On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees” (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law. (Annex 53)"

"24. The screening, processing, and release of detainees who should not be in custody takes too long and contributes to the overcrowding and unrest in the detention facilities. There are currently three separate release mechanisms in the theater-wide internment operations. First, the apprehending unit can release a detainee if there is a determination that their continued detention is not warranted. Secondly, a criminal detainee can be released after it has been determined that the detainee has no intelligence value, and that their release would not be detrimental to society. BG Karpinski had signature authority to release detainees in this second category. Lastly, detainees accused of committing “Crimes Against the Coalition,” who are held throughout the separate facilities in the CJTF-7 AOR, can be released upon a determination that they are of no intelligence value and no longer pose a significant threat to Coalition Forces. The release process for this category of detainee is a screening by the local US Forces Magistrate Cell and a review by a Detainee Release Board consisting of BG Karpinski, COL Marc Warren, SJA, CJTF-7, and MG Barbara Fast, C-2, CJTF-7. MG Fast is the “Detainee Release Authority” for detainees being held for committing crimes against the coalition. According to BG Karpinski, this category of detainee makes up more than 60% of the total detainee population, and is the fastest growing category. However, MG Fast, according to BG Karpinski, routinely denied the board’s recommendations to release detainees in this category who were no longer deemed a threat and clearly met the requirements for release. According to BG Karpinski, the extremely slow and ineffective release process has significantly contributed to the overcrowding of the facilities. (ANNEXES 40, 45, and 46)

25. After Action Reviews (AARs) are not routinely being conducted after an escape or other serious incident. No lessons learned seem to have been disseminated to subordinate units to enable corrective action at the lowest level. The Investigation Team requested copies of AARs, and none were provided. (Multiple Witness Statements)"

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Originally posted by Zoriah:
I wish they had, I hope that all the torture pictures come out so that nothing can be hidden behind.

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Originally posted by Zoriah:
Cruelty, barbarism, and the abuse of power over the weak and the helpless should be universally condemned no matter which side the perpetrators are on.

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