Anyone want to try and discuss why it did/didn't work? We keep hearing the same damned old saw from the right: "Tax cuts help the economy". It's been d..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Okay, 'Reaganomics'

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, December 9, 2010 08:56
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Monday, December 6, 2010 11:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anyone want to try and discuss why it did/didn't work? We keep hearing the same damned old saw from the right: "Tax cuts help the economy". It's been disproven out the ying-yang, right down to Daddy Bush calling it "Voodoo Economics", but the right still clings to it. Think there's a chance in hell of getting those on the right here to actually recognize the facts if we present them clearly? Anyone wanna try? I've done my bit many times over, to no avail...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Monday, December 6, 2010 11:27 AM

DREAMTROVE


Two words: Trickle Down.

I think it works for the middle to top rung, but not for the poor. It keeps businesses successful, hence, highly staffed, so there are lots of white collar jobs. This is the model Obama said he would follow, and so far I don't think he's pulled it off, but if he does, he'll get re-elected. It's not my favorite model, because it abandons the folk on the bottom, and I'm a bottom feeder

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Monday, December 6, 2010 11:46 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



It worked, amazingly well, and will always work, as long as we keep spending down.

But getting D.C. to play along w/ the 2nd part of that equation....




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 6, 2010 11:55 AM

DREAMTROVE


Rap has a point, but even in the 80s it was rough at the bottom. Rougher than it is now. I think Bush 41 was the kindest to the bottom rung, which I think is ironic because it's not the image he had. Clinton was perhaps the cruelest in my experience. I don't think it's partisan as much as personal.

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Monday, December 6, 2010 11:56 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Anyone want to try and discuss why it did/didn't work? We keep hearing the same damned old saw from the right: "Tax cuts help the economy".


Tax cuts stimulate business which creates wealth through investment, innovation, and productivity. More people making money means more people paying taxes on more transactions and income. Net gain so long as the cuts don't run too deep too quickly.

I think the results speak for themselves and the only bi-partisan tax plan in Congress is the one where everybody's taxes stay the same.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Monday, December 6, 2010 12:24 PM

STORYMARK


So, then, I guess all the Reagan fans would be okay with going back to his tax levels, right?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 6, 2010 4:07 PM

DREAMTROVE


I would, The poor didn't owe any tax under Reagan ;)

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Anyone want to try and discuss why it did/didn't work? We keep hearing the same damned old saw from the right: "Tax cuts help the economy".


Tax cuts stimulate business which creates wealth through investment, innovation, and productivity. More people making money means more people paying taxes on more transactions and income. Net gain so long as the cuts don't run too deep too quickly.

I think the results speak for themselves and the only bi-partisan tax plan in Congress is the one where everybody's taxes stay the same.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.




The results do indeed speak for themselves - less revenue and no real job creation are the results.

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 4:36 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
The results do indeed speak for themselves - less revenue and no real job creation are the results.


Reagan was President in the 1980s. Revenue went up, unemployment, interest rates, and infaltion came down.

Not to mention the birth of a new age of information and technology and the complete defeat of the Soviet Empire.

If your complaining about the Bush years, Bush largely abandoned Reaganomics after the initial tax cuts. However it is clear that the tax cuts are what halted the econimic slide the Country was in from 1999-2002 despite the 9/11 attacks. Unemployment dropped to 5%. It was not until the wheels came off of the Clinton-era Housing programs that things got really bad.

Why do you think most people think raising taxes is a really bad idea? Sure some want to raise taxes on the rich to fund their pet social experiments like ObamaCare, but there is almost universal agreement that raising taxes on everyone would be really, really bad. This asks the question...why were the tax cuts temporary in the first place? Answer: Democrats.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 4:56 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


I got news for ya, the Bush tax cuts had nothing to do with the economic resurgence.

One factor alone was responsible. The Graham-Leach-Bliley act, which deregulated banking, and led to the rise of the Sub-Prime lending boom. Suddenly everyone in the country could use their house as an atm, Billions went to irresponsible consumers who had no business getting the loans they were getting.

Its comical that the righties still believe in this tax cut myth.

I challenge any of you to find a credible study that can demonstrate the how, when and why tax cuts stir growth. I seriously doubt any of you could find one.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:00 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Also, the reason that the tax cuts were temporary, is because they are completely unsustainable. You guys flip over the cost of things like ObamaCare, when your side does things like pass a 900 billion dollar prescription drug bill that was never paid for, and now you want 700 billion to go to the top 5 percent of the country.

Guess what, The Health Care bill costs less than 900 billion.

Oh I know, lets end unemployment benefits so Donald Trump can buy another building, even though unemployment money is the most direct stimulus of the economy on a macro sense, BECAUSE EVERY FREAKING DOLLAR gets spent immediately, on food, housing, services, etc.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 8:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Tax cuts stimulate business which creates wealth through investment, innovation, and productivity. More people making money means more people paying taxes on more transactions and income. Net gain so long as the cuts don't run too deep too quickly.
Hero, that is word for word a talking point you've bought into, it has no basis in reality. If you bothered to check history, you'd understand that, but until you and those who believe like you DO look at facts and history, it will survive.

Quote:

Supposedly, top-bracket tax breaks will result in more jobs being created, higher wages for the average worker, and an overall upturn in our economy. It's at the heart of the infamous trickle-down theory. The past 40 years have seen a gradual decrease in the top bracket's income tax rate, from 91% in 1963 to 35% in 2003.

Overall, data from the past 50 years strongly refutes any arguments that cutting taxes for the richest Americans will improve the economic standing of the lower and middle classes or the nation as a whole. To be sure, the economic indicators examined in this report are dependent on a variety of factors, not just tax policy. However, what this study does show is that any attempt to stimulate economic growth by cutting taxes for the rich will do nothing -- it hasn't worked over the past 50 years, so why would it work in the future? To put it simply and bluntly, Bush's top-bracket tax cut is an ineffective attempt at stimulus that will not cause any growth -- unless, of course, if you're talking about the size of the deficit.

The drastic change in tax policy that has taken place since the early 1960s gives us a great opportunity to study and evaluate the claims that lower taxes for the rich translate to more wealth for the average American.

Let's look one by one at comparisons of key economic indicators to the top tax rate.

1. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to economic growth.



This graph shows the fluctuations of the real GDP growth rate over the period, indicating the performance of the U.S. economy as a whole. It is true that growth increased drastically after the 1982 tax cut, reaching as high as 7.3% in 1984. However, as the Reagan-Bush, Sr. administrations went on and taxes for the rich were slashed even further, growth fell to negative levels during 1991, at the heart of the last recession. And, two of the three years with the highest growth were during the 1950s, when the top tax rate was 91%. Overall, there seems to be no close relationship between the top tax rate and the GDP growth rate, and statistical analysis backs this up: the correlation coefficient between the two variables is 0.03, meaning that there is essentially no connection. (If tax cuts were strongly related to GDP growth, we would see a coefficient close to -1.) So much for upper-class tax cuts boosting the economy; now it's on to median income growth.

2. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to income growth.

Again, we see inconclusive evidence for the power of tax cuts. We do see small peaks in median income growth, a good measure of how the average American household is doing, after top-bracket tax cuts in the mid-1960s and early 1980s, but we also actually see income decreases after the tax cuts of the late 1980s, and strong growth after the tax increase of 1993. It is true that in the year with the worst median income decrease (3.3% in 1974), the top tax rate was 70%. However, it was also 70% in the year with the highest median income growth (4.7% in 1972)! Once again, the lack of connection between the two measures is backed up by a correlation coefficient near zero: 0.06, to be exact. And yes, yet again, the coefficient is positive, indicating that income has gone up slightly (though negligibly) more in years with higher taxes. Two strikes. How about hourly wages?

3. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to wage growth.



Not surprisingly, we have mixed results yet again! Growth in average hourly wages did increase during the 1980s following the first Reagan tax cuts, albeit two years after the cuts took effect. But, just like GDP growth and median income growth, hourly wages decreased following the late 1980s tax cuts, and spiked upwards after the 1993 tax increase.

Furthermore, wages grew at a level of at least 1%, and usually much more, all throughout the period when the top income tax rate was 91%. In fact, it isn't until 1972 that we see a wage growth rate of less than 1%. However, if we look at the 19 years of the study period when the top tax rate was 50% or less, we see that 8 of the years saw an increase in wages of less than 1%. Thus, it seems that hourly wages grew more when taxes were higher - indeed, the correlation coefficient is 0.34, indicating a mild positive relationship between higher taxes for the rich and higher hourly wages. This finding flies in the face of the conservative theory. As if that's not enough, now let's see about what President Bush claimed would be the biggest result of tax cuts - job creation.

4. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to job creation.



Here, we see the change in the unemployment rate laid against the top tax rate from 1954 to 2002. Thus, negative values signify a decrease in unemployment -- in essence, job creation. Once again, while the top tax rate trends downward over the period, the annual change in unemployment doesn't seem to trend at all! Although the largest increase (2.9%) did occur in 1975, when the top marginal tax rate was 70%, three of the four largest decreases in unemployment occurred in years when the top rate was 91%. The mixed results do not bode well for those who see tax cuts for the richest as a sparkplug to incite job growth. The correlation coefficient between the variables here is 0.11 -- meaning that there have been slightly more jobs created in years with lower top tax rates, but this pattern is negligible -- nowhere near strong enough to signify a relationship.

http://www.faireconomy.org/research/TrickleDown.html
Quote:

Reagan's policies did more than simply cut income taxes. A large number of tax loopholes were written into the tax code that catered to special corporate interests. In fact many of the current scandals involving companies such as Enron are rooted in laws that were passed during the Reagan administration that gave these companies more legal legroom to work with and less oversight.

In addition, the small “income-tax cuts” that were given to the middle and lower income tax brackets were countered with new taxes that were directed at middle and low income individuals

There is no realistic way for "Trickle-Down" economics to work to increase the income of the working classes of America. In fact I am certain that the developers of the theory of "Trickle-Down" economics were fully aware of this and that "Trickle-Down" has in fact worked as intended. This means that the intent behind implementing "Trickle-Down" was to benefit the wealthiest Americans at the expense of working class Americans. "Trickle-Down" hasn't failed, as many modern economists have suggested, it has succeeded in its goals, which is the increase of economic inequality and the shift of a greater portion of America's wealth into the hands of the wealthiest Americans.

The effects of "Trickle-Down" policy are evident. As would be expected from the policy, the largest beneficiaries of the "Trickle-Down" system have been the wealthy.

Individual earnings inequality as reported by the U. S. Census Bureau was falling or stable from the 1960s through the 1970s, however, beginning in the 1980s, along with the economic reforms of "Trickle-Down" policy, income inequality began to rise and has continued to rise dramatically ever since.



This next graph shows an even longer range view. This shows after tax income in 2000 dollars going back to 1913 for the top 1% and the average for the remaining bottom 99%.



The truth is that "Trickle-Down" was never intended to help middle income and poor Americans; it was intended to help the wealthy and Corporate America.
The economic policies of the Reagan era increased the trade deficit and provided easier ways for companies to "hide" money.
1980 the top 1% of tax filers received 8. 45% of American AGI (Adjusted Gross Income) and in 2000 that figure had risen to 20. 81% of the national AGI. Today the over 50% of the national income goes to the wealthiest 20% of Americans. This is the first time since 1935 that such a large portion of the national income has gone to such a small portion of the population. In 1967 the wealthiest 20% only accounted for 43% of the nation's income. The trend began in 1982. Between 1967 and 1982 middle-income households were gaining a larger share of the economy. What this means is that between 1982 and 2001 the bottom 80% of Americans have lost share in the nation's economy. This was the inevitable result of Reaganomics. It was an intended result. Political control and economic control go hand in hand. If the control of the economy is not in the hands of the majority of Americans then neither is political control.

http://rationalrevolution.net/war/trickle_down.htm

I think that guy nailed it. Trickle-down is a myth which the Republicans created, which sounded logical so people bought it. But it’s not logical, and it’s never worked.
Quote:

Trickle-down economics "is the view that to benefit the wealthy is to benefit the middle classes and even the poor. Essentially, high taxes prevent upper-income taxpayers from spending and investing. By freeing them from high tax rates, their expenditures will have a "trickle-down" effect that will benefit lower income earners. However, Republican economic policies have demonstrated trickle-down economics offer no revolutionary effect. Instead, the resulting wage, investment and job growth is on par or below levels associated with an economy that uses higher-marginal tax rates on upper-income earners.

Comparable Growth in Investment Spending
OK - corporations and individuals have more money. They must be investing that in the US to make us more productive, right?
Wrong. (All of these statistics are from the Bureau of Economic Analysis GDP reports). During the 1990s, the median level of total investment spending as a percent of GDP in the US was 15.97%. During the 2000s, the total is 15.91% -- a statistically insignificant difference. What is interesting is the median amount of non-residential investment spending was higher in the 1990s coming in at 11.18%, whereas that number is 10.45% for the 2000 expansion. In other words, nonresidential investment is less in the 2000s when pro-investment policies should have spurred higher investment spending.

So, there is no evidence that supply-side tax cuts spur a statistically meaningful increase in total domestic investment. In fact, nonresidential investment spending is lower so far for this expansion, repudiating the idea that supply-side tax cuts increase investment spending.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/28/838/71976

There are some historical facts and figures which show clearly that trickle-down economics do not work. There are, of course, other factors involved too, but as an overall history, Reaganomics fails on virtually every point.

In my opinion,

1. Trickle-down is a buzz word and sounds good, as do the reasons it should work. But it doesn’t. History has shown that.

2. The idea of Reaganomics is actually to dupe the American people which allows the rich to get richer, more tax loopholes and deregulation of corporations.

3. The argument that lower taxes are incentives for investment has been proven over and over not to be true; the rich don’t invest in ways that improve the economy when they get tax cuts.

What most gets me is the willingness to believe that tax cuts for the rich stimulate the economy, when tax cuts are actually one of the WORST ways to stimulate economic growth, and unemployment insurance the best. It should seem obvious to anyone that tax cuts for the rich mean the rich get richer and don’t necessarily spend that money; unemployment benefits get SPENT because people have to spend them. You want real, effective economic stimulus?
Quote:

Recent evidence that the economy has weakened significantly has sparked discussion of possible fiscal stimulus measures. To be effective, such measures must be timely, targeted, and temporary.

• Timely measures are those that, once triggered, stimulate new spending quickly so that businesses do not have to cut back on production or lay off workers due to weak demand.

• Targeted measures include those aimed at people who are most likely to experience hardship in a weak economy, since they are most likely to spend quickly the bulk of any new resources they receive. Targeted measures also include those aimed at entities that would quickly spend any relief they receive, such as fiscally strapped state governments. If measures are not targeted, any stimulative effect is likely to be relatively ineffective.

• Temporary measures are those that expire once the economy improves. Measures that are not temporary will increase long-term deficits, weakening the economy over the long term — and possibly in the short term as well, if the prospect of greater long-term deficits causes interest rates to be higher than they otherwise would be.

Some policymakers appear to assume that tax cuts are inherently stimulative, while spending increases are inherently less desirable as economic stimulus. Such assumptions do not withstand scrutiny. Both spending measures and tax cuts can be effective — or ineffective — as stimulus, depending on their nature and design.
As Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz and now-CBO director Peter Orszag wrote in late 2001, “Basic economic analysis indicates that increased government expenditures can indeed be stimulative, and, in fact, are often more effective as stimulus measures than tax cuts.” Similarly, two senior Federal Reserve economists found in 2002 that increases in government purchases tend to have a greater stimulative effect than tax cuts that have the same cost, because more of the increase in government spending will translate quickly into an increase in total spending in the economy, while a substantial part of a general tax cut will typically be saved.

Components of an Effective Stimulus Package

An effective stimulus package — one that meets the above criteria — should include four elements:

• Strengthened unemployment insurance. Temporary increases in unemployment insurance (UI) benefits are particularly effective as stimulus: the benefits go to workers who have lost their jobs, so the added income is likely to be spent quickly. As CBO director Orszag recently told the House Budget Committee, “research has shown that the unemployment insurance system is among the most effective dollar-for-dollar economic stabilizers that we have in terms of counterbalancing periods of economic weakness.”

• State fiscal relief. As of late-January, half the states already were reporting that they face budget shortfalls for fiscal year 2009 (which begins for most states on July 1). Nineteen of them have quantified their projected shortfalls, which total at least $32 billion for these states alone. Both the number of shortfalls and the size of the combined shortfalls are expected to rise sharply in coming weeks as more states complete budget reviews and governors unveil their 2009 budgets.

Because states must balance their budgets each year, the drop in revenues that results from an economic slowdown causes serious problems, forcing states to raise taxes or cut spending in the middle of a recession and thereby further weakening the economy. States typically institute hefty cuts in health care, education, and aid to local governments during economic downturns. Temporary fiscal relief can enable states to minimize these budget cuts and tax increases. In the last recession, Congress provided $20 billion in fiscal relief to the states.

• Temporary increase in food stamp payments. Dollar-for-dollar, this is one of the most effective forms of stimulus available. Virtually all of an increase in food stamp benefits would be spent, since food stamp households — about 90 percent of whom live below the poverty line — generally spend all their resources to meet their daily needs. Martin Feldstein, chairman of President Reagan’s Council of Economic Advisers, recently joined those calling for a temporary food stamp increase, noting that it would be stimulative because it would provide resources to people with a high propensity to consume.

Moreover, increased food stamp benefits would be injected into the economy much more quickly, and could be implemented much more easily, than almost all other forms of stimulus. Increased food stamp benefits can be issued within 60 days after enactment, and about 80 percent of all food stamp benefits are redeemed within two weeks of issuance. Some 97 percent are redeemed by the end of the month. Moreover, the administrative costs of a temporary benefit increase would be negligible. In contrast, temporary expansions of most other programs except unemployment insurance would take additional months to actually show up in the economy and, in many cases, would entail increased administrative costs.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=863

In order to SHOW that the claims about tax cuts are real, you need to show facts and figures which support it, not just mimic talking-points from those who want tax cuts because they benefit the rich and corporate interesst, while not doing any of the things they argue tax cuts will do. History and facts have proven which is right, and logic SHOULD show why other methods actually stimulate the economy more, dollar for dollar.

Can those of you who believe trickle-down works do that?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 8:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The fact that trickle down is sold as good for all and history and facts show it is actually only good for the rich can be seen clearly:
Quote:

The income gap between the richest and poorest Americans grew last year to its widest amount on record.

A different measure, the international Gini index, found U.S. income inequality at its highest level since the Census Bureau began tracking household income in 1967. The U.S. also has the greatest disparity among Western industrialized nations.

"Income inequality is rising, and if we took into account tax data, it would be even more," said Timothy Smeeding, a University of Wisconsin-Madison professor who specializes in poverty. "More than other countries, we have a very unequal income distribution where compensation goes to the top in a winner-takes-all economy."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/28/national/main6907321.shtml

We keep showing this but it keeps being ignored. If Reaganomics WORKED, everyone should have seen their income increase ("a rising tide lifts all boats"). But it's not true; it sounds good, that's all.
Quote:

Income growth in dollars, by quintile. Note the highest income group (Q5) has risen at a much higher rate than the other quintiles.


http://www.sustainablemiddleclass.com/Income-inequality.html

It's even more obvious here...note that the top 1% had their income rise 256%. Doesn't that say something about how well Reaganomics works FOR THE RICH?






Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 8:31 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
The results do indeed speak for themselves - less revenue and no real job creation are the results.


Reagan was President in the 1980s. Revenue went up, unemployment, interest rates, and infaltion came down.




But Reagan didn't cut taxes - he raised them.

But I shouldn't bother - you've proven time and again that facts don't matter to you = just talking points.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 9:01 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Of course Reagan cut taxes. He also raised taxes. The net was a tax decrease for Americans :

Legislated Tax Changes by Ronald Reagan as of 1988

Tax Cuts Billions of Dollars

Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981 -264.4
Interest and Dividends Tax Compliance Act of 1983 -1.8
Federal Employees’ Retirement System Act of 1986 -0.2
Tax Reform Act of 1986 -8.9
Total cumulative tax cuts -275.3


Tax Increases Billions of Dollars

Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 +57.3
Highway Revenue Act of 1982 +4.9
Social Security Amendments of 1983 +24.6
Railroad Retirement Revenue Act of 1983 +1.2
Deficit Reduction Act of 1984 +25.4
Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 +2.9
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 +2.4
Superfund Amendments and Reauthorization Act of 1986 +0.6
Continuing Resolution for 1987 +2.8
Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987 +8.6
Continuing Resolution for 1988 +2.0
Total cumulative tax increases +132.7




Unemployment Rate: 1980-1989
Year % Unemployed

1980 7.0
1981 7.5
1982 9.5
1983 9.5
1984 7.4
1985 7.1
1986 6.9
1987 6.1
1988 5.4
1989 5.2

"Note that unemployment numbers are usually the last to decline in an expansion, and the one of the first to rise during/prior to a recession. The reason for this is that employees and their related expenses (health insurance, pensions, training, etc.) are usually one of the highest expenses a business has.

During slow economic times a fast way to cut expenses is to lay off employees. Conversely, because they have such high costs associated with them, businesses usually wait until an expansion is well under way before hiring new people.

While some criticize businesses for operating in this manner, we each act this way when dealing with our personal finances. If we think money is tight we will not purchase a new car, for example. Only after we are sure a pay raise or new job will work out will are we willing to spend more money. To do otherwise would be to risk the overall economic well being of our family. It is no different for a company. The long-term survival of the company is more important than a short-term economic downturn for any employees. After all, if the company goes out of business then no one associated with that company will have a job, nor will there be any jobs for those laid off to be hired back to when the economy recovers.

The short-term dislocation (termed by some as creative or constructive destruction) helps enable future growth when new businesses can draw on this pool of available manpower. Indeed, the dramatic fall in unemployment was aided by new industries such as computer manufacturing, software and biotechnology that may not have grown as quickly without a pool of manpower to draw on during their formative years.

In the end, the pro-growth economic policies paid off tremendously. Over 18 million jobs were created during the Reagan expansion."




BUT IT TOOK YEARS ACCORDING TO THE UNEMPLOYMENT CHART ABOVE.....BIG TAX CUT IN 1981-82, BUT NO JOBS UNTIL 1986-87.





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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 9:22 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
The results do indeed speak for themselves - less revenue and no real job creation are the results.


Reagan was President in the 1980s. Revenue went up, unemployment, interest rates, and infaltion came down.



Deficits went up, wages went down, homelessness skyrocketed. That's the Reaganomics you don't like to remember.

Quote:

Not to mention the birth of a new age of information and technology and the complete defeat of the Soviet Empire.



None of which happened during the Reagan years, or as any kind of result of Reaganomics, unless your definition of Reaganomics is "spend blindly, putting massive debt loads on your great-grandchildren in an effort to massively overbuild the defense industry".

Quote:


If your complaining about the Bush years, Bush largely abandoned Reaganomics after the initial tax cuts. However it is clear that the tax cuts are what halted the econimic slide the Country was in from 1999-2002 despite the 9/11 attacks. Unemployment dropped to 5%. It was not until the wheels came off of the Clinton-era Housing programs that things got really bad.



Unemployment under Bush did not "drop" to 5%. It *climbed* to 5%, and continued to climb throughout his term of office, finishing at nearly double what it was the day he walked into office. The closest unemployment ever got to 4% in the modern age was in 1999, after 8 years of the Clinton presidency. You really owe the man a debt of thanks.

Quote:


Why do you think most people think raising taxes is a really bad idea? Sure some want to raise taxes on the rich to fund their pet social experiments like ObamaCare, but there is almost universal agreement that raising taxes on everyone would be really, really bad. This asks the question...why were the tax cuts temporary in the first place? Answer: Democrats.



Actually, *MOST* people agree that the tax cuts for the rich should go away. And you say it's all because of the Democrats that they were temporary, which I find curious. Republicans controlled both houses and the White House at the time, yet you blame the dems for your party's inability to craft legislation.

The fact remains, though - the tax cuts were DESIGNED to expire after a term of 10 years. They were designed that way - and passed into law - by a Republican Congress and a Republican President. Seems you should listen to their wishes...

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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 10:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Sure some want to raise taxes on the rich to fund their pet social experiments like ObamaCare
That's just, to quote Frem, a ": fullisade of jerkass rhetoric", it means nothing. If you want to accuse "some", do so by at least using the truth: they don't want tax cuts for the rich to go on because they're not paid for, they will increase our debt (and our debt to other countries, including those in the Mideast), and they're FAR less stimulative than other measures.
Quote:

but there is almost universal agreement that raising taxes on everyone would be really, really bad.
Your cute wording "raising tax cuts on everyone" completely ignores the REAL issue. The MAJORITY of Americans want the tax cuts FOR THE RICH to expire:

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2010/09/15/pie_chart_tax.9.15.10.GIF

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20016602-503544.html
Quote:

A majority of those polled by Gallup agree with President Obama that Bush-era tax cuts for the rich should be phased out.

Forty-four percent of those polled want tax cuts for individuals making less than $200,000 and families under $250,000 to be extended, but favor phasing out tax cuts for people who earn more than those thresholds.

Another 15 percent favor allowing the tax cuts for the rich to expire along with the middle-class tax cuts, according to Gallup.

That means 59 percent favor ending the tax cuts for the rich.

Thirty-seven percent of those polled by Gallup want to keep all the tax cuts in place.

A large number of Republicans disagree with Boehner, according to the poll.

Thirty-two percent of Republicans favor allowing the tax cuts for the rich to expire. Another 11 percent of Republicans polled think all of the tax cuts should be allowed to expire.

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/117995-new-poll-f
inds-americans-support-ending-tax-cuts-for-the-wealthy
Quote:

John Boehner (R-OH) invoked the elections to justify his unwillingness to budge on the Bush tax cuts. "We made clear that we believe that all the current tax rates should be extended for all Americans and permanently," Boehner said. "And the American people spoke on election night. They elected Republicans in droves."

But reality tells a different story. For the past several months, polls have consistently found that the majority of Americans want to end the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. Moreover, there is no evidence that the "shellacking" Democrats suffered in the elections had anything to do with tax rates for the top 2 percent of earners; in fact, exit polling still found that most Americans support allowing the upper-income tax cuts to expire.

http://politicalcorrection.org/blog/201011120001

By the way, as far as tax cuts stimulating job creation,
Quote:

President Bush has the worst track record for job creation since the American government began keeping records in 1939. The Bush administration created just 1.1 million jobs net, while the Clinton administration created 22.7 million
Bush had eight YEARS for trickle-down to work, so even if you say there's a lag in job growth, how do you explain that?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


By the way, as far as tax cuts stimulating job creation,
Quote:
President Bush has the worst track record for job creation since the American government began keeping records in 1939. The Bush administration created just 1.1 million jobs net, while the Clinton administration created 22.7 million
Bush had eight YEARS for trickle-down to work, so even if you say there's a lag in job growth, how do you explain that?




Man, with a track record like that, Clinton must have cut taxes down to, like, ZERO! Right? Right? [/snark]

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 6:11 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I'd rather have Bush's job creation record vs Obama's any day of the week.

And twice on Sunday.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 7:22 AM

STORYMARK


It's cute that you think they're not connected.

Good puppy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 7:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
It's cute that you think they're not connected.

Good puppy.



It's sad that you think 5% unemployment is worse then 9.8 %




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 9:41 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
It's cute that you think they're not connected.

Good puppy.



It's sad that you think 5% unemployment is worse then 9.8 %



And where did I say that???

God, do you even TRY to think before vomiting on your keyboard?

Stating that the two unemployment rates are connected is not saying 9 is lower than 5, you blithering idiot.

You're so fucking pathetic, you actually have to invent things to attack others for.


"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 9:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Aside from the fact that "job creation" and "unemployment" aren't exactly the same thing...

No comeback to Bush's pathetic job creation numbers, so let's slide it over into something else. You have nothing to say about the fact that Trickle Down is claimed to increase job creation, when the facts showed otherwise, I take it.

Clinton raised taxes: Bush's job creation numbers PALE beside his. So how does that prove Trickle Down works, please? If you want to be part of the discussion, begin by addressing the actual topic. Which you won't...wait for it. Here comes a completely irrelevant snark...

There's also the fact that Obama's been in office for two years; Bush had EIGHT years to "create" those numbers. Ergo, you wanna compare them, compare them on THAT basis!

And of course, let's completely leave out that Bush left us in the worst DEPRESSION since the Big One, which might have something to do with both unemployment AND job creation numbers. But we'll ignore that, just to give Bush a head start...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 10:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


On the other hand, if you WANT to slide off the topic of Reaganomics and into Bush v. Obama, let's talk job LOSS. Remember the "bikini chart"? It's been updated:



In other words; we're losing fewer jobs and have been since Obama took office, every month except last December, and have been creating jobs every month this year.
Quote:

In the last year of the Bush administration, the monthly job loss numbers built steadily to a peak which then began to reverse itself during Obama's first year.

Now, whether this was the result of Obama's and Bush's policies... or whether it's just a matter of timing, is obviously open for debate.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-jobs-lost-in-the-bush-
and-obama-administration-2010-2#ixzz17YIK2A9g


Obama/Dems started turning around job losses within less than a month of his taking office. Bush lost almost 800,000 jobs his last year in office. Obama turned that around and brought it flat in less than his first year in office, and it's been slowly growing (albeit WAY too slowly)ever since.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 10:16 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Stating that the two unemployment rates are connected is not saying 9 is lower than 5, you blithering idiot.


Do you think being unemployed under Bush was worse then being unemployed under Obama?

I would argue that it is far worse to be unemployed under Obama then under Bush, even with the extended benefits.

So not only are there more unemployed...they are also worse off. Shows the depth and the width of his failure.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 10:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Could you state specific reasons you believe
Quote:

being unemployed under Bush was worse then being unemployed under Obama
, please?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 10:29 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Do you think being unemployed under Bush was worse then being unemployed under Obama?



Yep, since I was unemployed under Bush, but not under Obama.

Quote:

I would argue that it is far worse to be unemployed under Obama then under Bush, even with the extended benefits.


Of course YOU would. You're Obama derangement isn't as extreme as Rappy's, but it's pretty strong.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 2:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that those who claimed to be so strongly against deficits and debt are now cheering this new addition of some $3- to $3.8 TRILLION in new debt they just "won".

Of course they never cared a bit about debts or deficits during the Bush years...

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 2:42 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Tax rates remaining as they've been isn't in the least bit adding new debt. It's excessive spending.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 3:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Excessive spending you never had a problem with between 2000 and 2008, you mean. We coulda chopped far more than $1.5 TRILLION of that "excessive spending" just by NOT going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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Wednesday, December 8, 2010 3:05 PM

STORYMARK


Sure, just keep telling yourself that.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, December 9, 2010 8:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, simplicity is always easier than thinking, and repeating sound bites is too.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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