REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Courts: is it about justice or making money?

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Thursday, February 10, 2011 14:40
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Thursday, February 10, 2011 9:21 AM

CANTTAKESKY



http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=14248165

Quote:

SALT LAKE CITY — It was a shocking experience for Dena Long-Christensen, sitting in a cell in the Salt Lake County Jail for nearly two weeks among people charged with serious crimes.

Her cellmate, for example, was spending time on charges of aggravated assault. Long-Christensen's crime? Selling flower baskets from her home.



Justice courts also have an incentive to make sure those who owe money pay it. If they don't, Hart said, "When somebody does not pay the court, the judge then becomes in essence the creditor and that judge can order the person to jail."

John Oliver said he is a perfect example of municipal court judges using the threat incarceration in order to extract payment.

In April 2006, Oliver was cited for driving on a suspended license, revoked registration and operating a vehicle without insurance, all misdemeanors. He pleaded guilty in West Valley Municipal Court to all three charges and was fined $700 and given a 30-day suspended sentence. When he fell behind on his payments to the court, Judge Ronald Kunz issued an order for Oliver to appear.

Prior to that date, court documents show that Oliver had caught up on his payments. Court records also indicate that Oliver had a heated phone conversation with the judge's court clerk. Oliver was upset that he had to miss work to go to court for simply missing payments.

"He was told that he must appear or pay (the) balance, otherwise warrant will be issued. Defendant said that he will just sit in jail for an hour and then he will be released," the clerk wrote in the court docket.

Oliver, 49, said when he appeared before the judge, Kunz began reading aloud the clerk's notes from the phone conversation.

"I just kind of snidely said (to the clerk on the phone), ‘Whatcha going to do? Throw me in jail for three days?' And she put these comments in the folder. And that's what he did. He threw me in jail for three days."

Oliver wasn't sent to the Salt Lake County Jail. Instead, he was kept in a cell next to Kunz's courtroom for three days.





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Thursday, February 10, 2011 10:17 AM

DREAMTROVE


Neither, It's about power. Any independent action or enterprise represents independence. Independent people are free of shackles, so they must be re-shackled.

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Thursday, February 10, 2011 11:57 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Well, they _should be about justice.

It irritates me when people freak out about little enterprises like this. A little girl and her mom got in trouble because the little girl's lemonaide stand wasn't a licensed business, pa-lease! I got so pissed off when this happened, she's a little girl for goodness sake, the point of being little is to sell things on the side of road and get excited about it, when I was young we were always selling candy and cookies and it is a very fond memory. And this woman in the article, I don't think selling a few flower baskets from home constitutes a crime. I understand that there are zoning laws and I partly understand why, so people aren't clogging up residential neighborhoods. But I doubt there was any clogging going on here, so why does the government care? Just being bossy and extracting money I suppose. That's just snotty and they need a good lil' smack to knock some sense into them, this just isn't fair. :(

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:07 PM

DREAMTROVE


I think my business has been killed by the recent changes here. It's all part of a plan to kill independence. I think we're slipping back into an FDR govt-labor society, which if history is any indication, is just a stepping point to world war. After all, that's what's required to fight one, that's why our wars have been so pathetic, our military industrial complex is weenie. In order for that transfer to work, the independent individual enterprise has to end. This is becoming a very scary country.

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Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA



No, it's about the money, for money *IS* power.
And the difference between an actual courtroom and a sham star chamber?
Perceived Legitimacy.

Clipped From: http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101029/NEWS02/31029
9896

Quote:

Published: October 29. 2010 11:55AM
Attorney General goes to court to shut down Erie debt collector

The state Attorney General's Office has gone to court to stop an Erie debt collection company from using what it says are misleading, confusing and coercive tactics to extract payments from debtors, including summoning them to hearings held in a fake courtroom and threatening them with arrest by Sheriff's deputies.

The lawsuit against Unicredit America, Inc. was filed in Erie County Court by Deputy Attorney General Leslie M. Grey and Senior Deputy Attorney General Jesse F. Harvey of the Attorney General's Bureau of Consumer Protection.

It seeks restitution for all consumers who have been harmed by Unicredit's alleged unfair trade practices, along with civil penalties of up to $1,000 for each violation or up to $3,000 for each violation involving a victim age 60 or older. Accompanying the lawsuit is a petition for special and preliminary injunction that asks the court to freeze all Unicredit assets and prohibit the company from engaging in any debt collection.

Authorities additionally ask the court to order the company at 1537 W. 39th St. to immediately cease all bogus hearings or depositions and provide detailed information about company bank accounts, assets and business records.

A hearing has been scheduled for Dec. 13 before Erie County Judge Michael E. Dunlavey.

Michael Covatto, president of Unicredit, said this morning that he had no knowledge of the court action.

Erie lawyer Larry D'Ambrosio is accused of orchestrating the hearings held in the mock courtroom at 1537 W. 39th St. He could not immediately be reached for comment.

Authorities charge that Unicredit used civil court subpoenas to summon consumers to fake court hearings that were used to intimidate consumers into providing access to bank accounts, making immediate payments or surrendering vehicle titles and other assets. Sometimes, the complaint charges, Unicredit employees were sent to consumers' homes in order to retrieve documents or have consumers sign payment agreements.

The fake courtroom allegedly contained furniture and decorations similar to those used in actual court offices, including a raised "bench" area where a judge would be seated.

During some proceedings, authorities charge, an individual dressed in black was seated where observers would expect to see a judge.

"This is an unconscionable attempt to use fake court proceedings to deceive, mislead or frighten consumers into making payments or surrendering valuables to Unicredit without following lawful procedures for debt collection," Attorney General Tom Corbett said.

"Consumers also allegedly received dubious 'hearing notices' and letters -- often hand-delivered by individuals who appear to be sheriff deputies -- which implied they would be taken into custody by the Sheriff if they failed to appear at the phony court for 'hearings' or 'depositions'."


Corbett said Unicredit is accused of violating Pennsylvania's Consumer Protection Law and the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. He said the company also failed to comply with state and Erie County Court rules in order to extract payments from consumers.

Corbett urged consumers with complaints or questions related to Unicredit debt collection practices to call the Attorney General's Consumer Protection Hotline at 1-800-441-2555 or file an online consumer complaint using the Attorney General's website, at www.attorneygeneral.gov. (Click on the "Complaints" button on the front page of the website and select the "Consumer Complaint Form" from the menu list).

-- Lisa Thompson


Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh, and Riona, you haven't seen insane till you've seen some of the OTHER stuff involved in this...
Quote:

“You don’t need to know. You can’t know.” That’s what Kathy Norris, a 60-year-old grandmother of eight, was told when she tried to ask court officials why, the day before, federal agents had subjected her home to a furious search.

The agents who spent half a day ransacking Mrs. Norris’ longtime home in Spring, Texas, answered no questions while they emptied file cabinets, pulled books off shelves, rifled through drawers and closets, and threw the contents on the floor.

The six agents, wearing SWAT gear and carrying weapons, were with - get this- the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

Kathy and George Norris lived under the specter of a covert government investigation for almost six months before the government unsealed a secret indictment and revealed why the Fish and Wildlife Service had treated their family home as if it were a training base for suspected terrorists. Orchids.

That’s right. Orchids.


Full Story Here: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/05/criminalizing-everyone/

Not to mention simply HAVING a substantial sum of money is grounds for Asset Forfeiture under suspicion of heaven-knows-what.

Which is why I bang the drum so much, the only DIFFERENCE between a Government Agent and any other thug or thief is simply a matter of scale and perceived legitimacy, the latter of which I seriously wanna revoke, and locally have been doin a damned good job of.



Cause in the end, does it MATTER whether the goon who beat, robbed, or otherwise abused you had official sanction, a spiffy uniform and a tin badge ?
Cause I can roll out two of those three my damn self!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:44 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


well I think they end up costing a lot of money to run a trial, so they charge a lot of money. And yes, there can be a lot of dosh made from the law.

There are actually lots of places you can settle disputes cheaply or even freely without going to court - I'm not referring to criminal matters here. But people sure want to have their day in court in my experience, even though it's never how they imagine (based on American television usually) and they often don't get the satisfaction they imagine. But they seem to have this longing for 'justice' ie Tell me I am right, Your Honour'

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Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:52 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition.

THAT is going in my sig line.

-------
Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition. - Frem

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Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:55 PM

BYTEMITE



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Thursday, February 10, 2011 2:40 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:



Cat got your tongue?


Quote:

Frem:
No, it's about the money, for money *IS* power.



I disagree. It's one weapon in an arsenal of power.

Quote:


And the difference between an actual courtroom and a sham star chamber?
Perceived Legitimacy.



I agree.

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