Legal? or Not.? I'm just a Bot. by Mockromancer

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Not one word you've ever said is true.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:51 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think getting rid of laws is a bad idea.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:01 PM

BYTEMITE

Yeah, otherwise how would I break them?

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Yeah, otherwise how would I break them?

With a smile and an air of gleeful abandon? That's always worked for me.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 4:53 AM

DREAMTROVE

Mike:

The

Riona:

Would get rid of crime

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 7:34 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Yeah, otherwise how would I break them?

With a smile and an air of gleeful abandon? That's always worked for me.

...And Obama...and Bush...

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Friday, March 25, 2011 9:10 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

DT, good luck with that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mockromancer:
If we continue to bestow rights on those that break our laws how then, do we keep from becoming a lawless society? We do not want to punish children, where do we draw the line?

I'm with DT. Get rid of immigration laws. Then there are no laws to break, and everyone is legal.

If you don't want to go totally lawless, then get rid of MOST immigration laws. 99% of our immigration laws are bureaucratic red tape that has nothing to do with anything except employing hordes of paper pushers.

Legality is an arbitrary line you draw so you can feel powerful when you punish those who cross it.

Open our borders. Anyone who isn't a wanted criminal or carrying a plague is welcome. Just like the old days.

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Monday, March 28, 2011 5:49 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I've stayed out of the immigration debate here so far, but its time. I think we do indeed need immigration laws, if we don't have any then everyone floods in and all our resources like Medicare and Medicaid etc. get used up in a hurry. Obviously we have to have immigration because this is America so its a country founded on/by immigrants. Not to mention that that is part of America, new people coming and adding to what we have here in collective experiences etc.

But if I want to go and live in Ireland for instance I can't, I'll get deported as soon as they find out I've been there longer than I said I was going to be. We met a woman who tried to stay on in Belfast (the north, but same principle) and was promptly deported back here as soon as they caught her. So if I can't do that then why should other people be allowed to hang out here illegally?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, March 28, 2011 6:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
... if we don't have any then everyone floods in and all our resources like Medicare and Medicaid etc. get used up in a hurry.

That is a legitimate concern.

The only way open borders like the old days can work is if we have no public assistance like the old days. I am in favor of both open borders and no public assistance.

But say you don't want to go that far. At least reform immigration laws. Most of the system doesn't make any sense at all.

For example, check out this article at Reason Magazine.

"What part of legal immigration don't you understand?"

http://reason.com/blog/2008/09/24/new-at-reason-mike-flynn-shikh

Get rid of the Godzilla of bureaucracy and streamline the system. Watch all the "illegals" disappear just like that.

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Monday, March 28, 2011 6:24 PM

HARDWARE

Get rid of public assistance, medicaid, medicare.

Continue with granting citizenship to people born in this country. Granting an infant citizenship gives their parents no rights to stay in this country. If they want to give up their parental rights to the child, then the child can stay, otherwise, take your US citizen and go on back home.

Immediately seize any company employing illegals in any capacity. Any company, of any size. If you employ illegals in your home, you forfeit your house. If you rent, your landlord loses his house. Get ready to be sued by your landlord.

Watch the illegal alien problem disappear.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, March 28, 2011 6:32 PM

Quote:
Immediately seize any company employing illegals in any capacity. Any company, of any size. If you employ illegals in your home, you forfeit your house. If you rent, your landlord loses his house. Get ready to be sued by your landlord.

Heck, why just limit it to companies that employ illegals? Why not just immediately seize any company that breaks ANY law? Pollute a stream? Lose your company (and all assets). Release radiation? Buh-bye, electric utility! Skimp on maintenance on your oil rig? Thanks for the conglomerate, BP! Blow off the safety citations on your coal mine? I'll have that property, thank you very much!

I mean, heck, if we're going to enact draconian rules, let's apply them EQUALLY. All of these corporations knowingly broke the law, so obviously all of them should now be wholly owned by the government.

Right?

What if your company hires a company that hired illegals? Does that count? Like, say, WalMart hires a landscape company in one town that they should reasonably suspect is employing illegals - do you seize WalMart, the entire corporation, or just the local superstore?

What if an illegal opens a bank account at BankAmerica? Can we seize BankAmerica? Please?

I like the way you're thinking, HW. I'm sure it will never pass muster, though. Meagan Whitman, former Republican candidate for California governor, would have lost her mansion due to hiring an illegal housekeeper! Christine O'Donnell would lose her condo AND her office for violating election laws.

But who seizes the "company" when the government breaks the laws?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:37 AM

HARDWARE

Actually, this was a "taken to the absurd" statement. I'm not saying those things are the easiest or best way to handle the illegal alien problem. I'm certain that ending public assistance, medicaid and medicare would have all of our cities burning in a day.

Kind of makes a fence seem cheap by comparison though, doesn't it?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:45 AM

Sure a fence *seems* easier - until some enterprising Mexican company sets up a factory building and selling ladders right on the border. Or trampolines. Or ropes.

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
If they want to give up their parental rights to the child, then the child can stay, otherwise, take your US citizen and go on back home.

Uh, that is already the case.

I don't believe your first two suggestions would make a difference.

America was teeming with immigrants back before public assistance. Most folks don't come to America for free Medicaid--our health care system is not that great. Everyone who's had health care in another country knows it. They come for the hope of opportunity to escape their caste, an opportunity that is actually unique to America. They come for the Bootstrap Dream. So shutting down public assistance, while a good idea, won't address the real reason most people come to the States.

The second is already in place, and it hasn't made a dent.

Quote:
Immediately seize any company employing illegals in any capacity. Any company, of any size. If you employ illegals in your home, you forfeit your house. If you rent, your landlord loses his house. Get ready to be sued by your landlord.

Oh, I see. War on Illegals. More excuses for forfeiture abuses. That won't go badly.

You guys don't understand how easy it is to be illegal without being wrong. Think War on Sudafed. Think how you would feel if the IRS were empowered to seize property for making errors on your tax forms. That is how easy it is to become illegal.

Quote:
Watch the illegal alien problem disappear.

If you resort to draconian measures, sure. Any problem can disappear if you jackboot people hard enough.

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sure a fence *seems* easier - until some enterprising Mexican company sets up a factory building and selling ladders right on the border. Or trampolines. Or ropes.

Or tunnels, as is the case. That is what most people do with fences they want to cross, the world over.

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:24 AM

OK, I figure most of you aren't first generation immigrants, and therefore aren't familiar with how easy it is to become illegal. I'll give you an example.

My old, somewhat senile mother went back to the home country for a visit. When she came back, she brought one of her favorite fruits to eat on the airplane. Except she didn't eat them all.

At customs, they found undeclared fruit. That's contraband, right there. Then my old senile mom made another mistake: she asked if she could please keep it and eat it cause she can't buy that fruit here. So now, she was refusing to surrender her contraband.

They confiscated her permanent residency card. They sent her to deportation proceedings. I had to hire an immigration lawyer, go with her to immigration court to get her cleared, and reapply to get her legal residency back. It cost me thousands of dollars.

Over one piece of fruit and a request to keep said fruit.

Now imagine if she had no support system. Imagine if she had no money to hire lawyers and reapply for her PR card again. She would have been deported. And if she decided to just go home and live her normal life, she would be here as an illegal alien. Despite having had legal residency for over 10 years.

Imagine if she became homeless, being senile and all. And some very nice Christian family gave her a couch in their basement so she wouldn't have to freeze to death in the streets. Or give her odd jobs so she could eat. Now they are hiring and sheltering an illegal alien.

Imagine forfeiture laws sic'ed on this nice Christian family if we were to implement a War on Illegals.

All these lives would be destroyed. Over one piece of fruit.

Despite the mantra, "Illegal is illegal," illegal is not always wrong. Illegal happens very easily without anything immoral ever having been committed.

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 6:21 AM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Immediately seize any company employing illegals in any capacity. Any company, of any size. If you employ illegals in your home, you forfeit your house. If you rent, your landlord loses his house. Get ready to be sued by your landlord.

Heck, why just limit it to companies that employ illegals? Why not just immediately seize any company that breaks ANY law? Pollute a stream? Lose your company (and all assets). Release radiation? Buh-bye, electric utility! Skimp on maintenance on your oil rig? Thanks for the conglomerate, BP! Blow off the safety citations on your coal mine? I'll have that property, thank you very much!

I mean, heck, if we're going to enact draconian rules, let's apply them EQUALLY. All of these corporations knowingly broke the law, so obviously all of them should now be wholly owned by the government.

Actually, I am in favor of doing away with corporate personhood. And in cases of willful negligence or illegal behavior, holding corporate officers liable.

Quote:

But who seizes the "company" when the government breaks the laws?

That would be We, the people.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Immediately seize any company employing illegals in any capacity. Any company, of any size. If you employ illegals in your home, you forfeit your house. If you rent, your landlord loses his house. Get ready to be sued by your landlord.

Heck, why just limit it to companies that employ illegals? Why not just immediately seize any company that breaks ANY law? Pollute a stream? Lose your company (and all assets). Release radiation? Buh-bye, electric utility! Skimp on maintenance on your oil rig? Thanks for the conglomerate, BP! Blow off the safety citations on your coal mine? I'll have that property, thank you very much!

I mean, heck, if we're going to enact draconian rules, let's apply them EQUALLY. All of these corporations knowingly broke the law, so obviously all of them should now be wholly owned by the government.

Actually, I am in favor of doing away with corporate personhood. And in cases of willful negligence or illegal behavior, holding corporate officers liable.
Quote:

But who seizes the "company" when the government breaks the laws?

That would be We, the people.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

I call "Dibs!" on all Halliburton's shit.

Actually, we aren't that far apart on corporate personhood.

But I stand pretty squarely with CTS on the idea of asset forfeitures. It's been abused quite a bit already, and I'd rather not give any government - city, state, neighborhood (look up homeowners' associations for some real horror stories!), federal - any further tools to make us criminals. At least, not until they show that they can responsibly use the laws and tools they've already got!

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
If they want to give up their parental rights to the child, then the child can stay, otherwise, take your US citizen and go on back home.
Uh, that is already the case.

I don't believe your first two suggestions would make a difference.

America was teeming with immigrants back before public assistance. Most folks don't come to America for free Medicaid--our health care system is not that great. Everyone who's had health care in another country knows it. They come for the hope of opportunity to escape their caste, an opportunity that is actually unique to America. They come for the Bootstrap Dream. So shutting down public assistance, while a good idea, won't address the real reason most people come to the States.

The second is already in place, and it hasn't made a dent.

Quote:
Immediately seize any company employing illegals in any capacity. Any company, of any size. If you employ illegals in your home, you forfeit your house. If you rent, your landlord loses his house. Get ready to be sued by your landlord.
Oh, I see. War on Illegals. More excuses for forfeiture abuses. That won't go badly.

You guys don't understand how easy it is to be illegal without being wrong. Think War on Sudafed. Think how you would feel if the IRS were empowered to seize property for making errors on your tax forms. That is how easy it is to become illegal.

Quote:
Watch the illegal alien problem disappear.
If you resort to draconian measures, sure. Any problem can disappear if you jackboot people hard enough.

This should be a sticky!

+ 1,000,000 !!

Oh, and CTS, if I haven't told you lately (or ever), I'd definitely miss you if you left RWED. We've not always seen eye to eye, but your input is valuable here.

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Oh, and CTS, if I haven't told you lately (or ever), I'd definitely miss you if you left RWED. We've not always seen eye to eye, but your input is valuable here.

Aw, that's sweet. Thank you.

I value your comments too. Even when I don't agree with you, you still represent your views with a lot of sense. I'm very glad your level-headed presence is here.

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Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:55 PM