More Religion of Peace stuff ( No foolin', either ) by AURaptor

Yeah, but according to Kwicko that is no different than the lone abortion Dr. killer that happened twenty years ago.....or the witch burnings from 300yrs ago.

I think the disease that we call liberalism has wasted his brain away. Well, at least the lobe used for rationality and liking girls.

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Saturday, April 2, 2011 5:17 PM

America loves a winner!

when's the last time a bunch of Methodists got worked up in a frenzy and killed some none believers ?

Or Hindus ?

Mormons, maybe ?

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Saturday, April 2, 2011 6:11 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Mormons in particular have a pretty vicious history of this kind of shit.

So do Catholics. Ask Peter King. He supported them and helped funnel money to them (to buy weapons from Libya with which to commit terrorist acts that targeted civilians, no less! ) ;)

Hindus have lots of problems with terrorism.

Seems pretty much every religion has its nutjobs. The common thread seems to be that all these people are religious. Maybe Peter King can head up a congressional committee to investigate how all religions seem to radicalize a certain batshit element within their ranks.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, April 2, 2011 6:23 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Lordie, what would Aghanistanis have against the UN?

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 2:54 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Mormons in particular have a pretty vicious history of this kind of shit.

So do Catholics. Ask Peter King. He supported them and helped funnel money to them (to buy weapons from Libya with which to commit terrorist acts that targeted civilians, no less! ) ;)

Hindus have lots of problems with terrorism.

Seems pretty much every religion has its nutjobs. The common thread seems to be that all these people are religious. Maybe Peter King can head up a congressional committee to investigate how all religions seem to radicalize a certain batshit element within their ranks.

Are you talking of the past 20-30 years or so , or through out history? I think the problem w/ some here is that they want to compare all religions on their actions over the past 100's or 1000's of years. That completely distorts the issue, and glosses over what's happening NOW. And while we can't ignore or white wash over history, it must be understood that we live in a point of space and time in which we CAN affect what goes on around us. We can't undo the events of the past. We can learn from them, but we can't hold those living today accountable for what happened 100's of years ago.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 5:40 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

With extremist terrorism (of any kind) religion hijacked and used as a tool for gathering minions. If you can convince a group of people you are the voice of their God, BAM you know have unquestionable authority over your believers. It works even better of the followers can't or are unwilling to read the sacred text and interpret it for themselves. Worked like a charm for the Catholics before Martin Luther changed things.

And what's with the Kwicko bashing? Look, sometimes he post things that infuriate me too but I respect his intelligence and him as a person. Sure, I think he's a mite irrational when it comes to anything religious or conservative, but if we never heard any opposing voices, why would we come up with new ideas?

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 6:09 AM

America loves a winner!

Who was bashing ? I was merely stating fact. I've yet to begin to 'bash'.

Kwickie loves to make false, unsubstantiated accusations, because he knows he has no case, nothing of any real significance to add, so he just trolls away.

Stating that fact isn't in the least bit 'bashing'.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 9:44 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well said, Happy. Won't change anything, but thank you for saying it. What happened has almost NOTHING to do with Islam as a religion; it has to do with desperately poor people who are used as pawns by those who want power.

As to history, the point is, in other times and other places there has been just as ugly terrorism, violence, hatred and prejudice as there is today. It's valid...if we hate the jihadists of today, we must take into account that at other times other religions were just as ugly and hateful. If not, we are in danger of becoming (as so many already ARE) self-righteous and dehumanizing those who have been conned into believing they are doing "Allah's will", as Happy said. It's called perspective; if you remember what other religions have done through history, maybe you have less temptation to hate all Muslims and consider them "all" as terrorists, or that every mosque teaches terrorism.

Jihadists today are doing despicable things. I bear in mind that those come from countries who are still pretty undeveloped in many ways. When we were relatively undeveloped our forefathers did some horrific things. IF we had any desire to aleviate this situation we could--and are to some degree. There are organizations trying to improve conditions in those places, to improve education and civil rights; do that and things will change. They already ARE, as can be seen by the upheaval in the Middle East. Maybe if we stopped invading, bombing, lording it over them, focusing our hatred on them, etc., they'd progress faster, who knows?

We've got it in our very own country. The lower valud of life in the ghettos leads to more crime and violence; when people think they don't have much to live for, life has less value. The answer is better living conditions, education, and human rights. We don't bother with them in our OWN country, much less any other.

I know ONE thing for certain, and it's been said over and over. Even when we were a young country, we did horrific things in the name of religion, and we were never, NEVER as poor nor lived in conditions similar to those in the Middle East. England was prosperous and supposedly civilized when she did some of the things she did. The Irish were poor and persecuted, more similar to Muslim countries, but even then didn't live lives nearly as desperate. I'd like to see how civilized we'd all be if we were born into a country like Afghanistan, how much reverence we'd have for human life. I'd like to see how easily we'd swallow the lies about an afterlife, the "will of Allah", etc. It's part of the equation, and to see them as we see each other is to neglect reality. Which doesn't bother some here, I realize...they WANT to focus their hatred and love doing so every time.

I know the concept of perspective is way beyond you, Raptor, but it's important. The best way to fire people up is to dehumanize the enemy, as we know, and to give people a group or religion to focus their hatred on, and that's exactly what's been done.

Aside from all that, there are always reasons things like this happen. While I don't think we "brought 9/11 on ourselves" as has been said, I think we certainly contributed to the anger and hatred aimed at us today by our interference, invasion, etc. of other sovereign nations.

Afghans aren't a violent people; a small number of them have been conned into thinking jihad is a righteous thing, but condemning all Afghans, or all Muslims, is as evil to me as the things that small minority has done.

Me, I hold that goddamned prick "minister" (obviously I use the term loosely) to account as well. He knew what he was doing; he did it for attention. He all but DARED them to do something. The Q'ran is not at ALL viewed like the Bible. The Bible is something written by men, the followers of Christ; the Q'ran is seen as literally the word of god. He even SAID violence might ensue, but he CHOSE to take no responsibility for what he did, safely ensconced in his little corner of the world. He wouldn't have had the guts to do it in the Middle East; and I maintain, he did it for attention. What's worse, doing something you KNOW might well cost lives just for the attention, or people reacting violently to what they KNEW was his intent?

I consider him not worthy of sympathy, and I almost wish someone would off HIM...he deserves it for creating this horror DELIBERATELY!

This is not to excuse or ignore violence which is abhorrent, it is to think BEYOND surface events and recognize all that actually goes into events; without history, the "now" means nothing.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 9:46 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
loves to make false, unsubstantiated accusations, because he knows he has no case, nothing of any real significance to add, so he just trolls away.

Damn, sounds JUST like you!

Quote:
Stating that fact isn't in the least bit 'bashing'.

You rarely ever state "facts"...you state your opinions, then go on to insist they're facts, even when they're disproven, and add to it personal insults.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 10:44 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I think the problem w/ some here is that they want to compare all religions on their actions over the past 100's or 1000's of years. That completely distorts the issue, and glosses over what's happening NOW.

If you want to blame the actions of a few psychos proclaiming to support a particular religion on the religion itself, then you MUST examine the entire religion, globally by all adherents, throughout its entire history. And you MUST compare it to other religions, globally practiced throughout THEIR entire histories.

Consider putting it in historical context and side by side with other religions as sort of a "control group."

If you do this, you'll find that every religion has had its grotesquely violent period in its history. Right now, it's "Islam's" turn to be the religious reavers. But make no mistake, other religions have already had their turns. So yanno, glass houses and all.

My hypothesis is that there are always people who have proclivities for grotesque violence and hunger for control over others. Those people tend to find convenient excuses in religious thought to rationalize their violent and power hungry instincts. So there will always be some religious ideology or two that crop up to meet those needs. Those ideologies will have some mainstream religion as their root, but in actuality bear no resemblance to their parents. Their only purpose is to justify violence.

So IMO, radical Islam doesn't turn people violent. Violent people find radical Islam to rationalize their violent tendencies. And when that excuse eventually dies off, a radical branch of some other religion will take its turn as the Evil Du Jour.

You can see this pattern ONLY if you look at all the religions in context of history.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 10:47 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

What happened to "freedom of religion"?

Aren't they practicing their religion in their own country

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 10:53 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

You know Rap ...

At first you were all about revenge for 9/11, and Bush and Rush. Then you were all about WMDs and that roaring economy and killing Hussein. Then it segued into Palin and guns. Now you can't get enough of Bachman and Beck and you are as anti-Muslim as any true-believing right-wing christian-nutcase.

Quite a journey they've led you on.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 10:53 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
My hypothesis is that there are always people who have proclivities for grotesque violence and hunger for control over others. Those people tend to find convenient excuses in religious thought to rationalize their violent and power hungry instincts. So there will always be some religious ideology or two that crop up to meet those needs. Those ideologies will have some mainstream religion as their root, but in actuality bear no resemblance to their parents. Their only purpose is to justify violence.

So IMO, radical Islam doesn't turn people violent. Violent people find radical Islam to rationalize their violent tendencies.

Thank you, CTS, for so eloquently putting the issue in context and explaining why history is VERY relevant. It won't make any difference to those who NEED to believe as they do and dismiss history in order to rationalize their hate of everything Islam, but to me, it is a very valid point.

Kiki, I couldln't make out exactly what you were saying. Of course they practice their religion in their own countries, but a major tenant of AMERICAN law and expressed ideals is that we don't infringe on anyone's right to practice their religion in OUR country. It's invalid to compare ourselves to other countries, and hey, those countries allow Christians to practice THEIR religions in their countries, so that would make us WORSE in comparison. Is that what we think of our country?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 11:01 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Just that Rap has serious disconnect issues within his own brain. He's all for freedom of religion - unless it's Muslims in this country, or, indeed, any country. Freedom of expression - unless it's an idea he disagrees with. Freedom of association - unless it's a union. Freedom of action - unless it's a recall vote.

He's been led by his beliefs into many, many contradictions. Which, quite humorously, he doesn't enough notice. (Get that Rap - I'm laughing at you.)

I would take longer to explain specifics but I have to go.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Mormons in particular have a pretty vicious history of this kind of shit.

So do Catholics. Ask Peter King. He supported them and helped funnel money to them (to buy weapons from Libya with which to commit terrorist acts that targeted civilians, no less! ) ;)

Hindus have lots of problems with terrorism.

Seems pretty much every religion has its nutjobs. The common thread seems to be that all these people are religious. Maybe Peter King can head up a congressional committee to investigate how all religions seem to radicalize a certain batshit element within their ranks.

Are you talking of the past 20-30 years or so , or through out history? I think the problem w/ some here is that they want to compare all religions on their actions over the past 100's or 1000's of years. That completely distorts the issue, and glosses over what's happening NOW. And while we can't ignore or white wash over history, it must be understood that we live in a point of space and time in which we CAN affect what goes on around us. We can't undo the events of the past. We can learn from them, but we can't hold those living today accountable for what happened 100's of years ago.

Then explain to us all why you were so adamantly AGAINST the so-called "Cordoba 'mosque'" (not) at Ground Zero? Weren't you specifically holding those living today for what happened literally hundreds of years ago?

Guess it's different when you're talking about "them", right?

If you ever said "Support the Troops!", you are a socialist. You've taken money from me, by force and at gunpoint, and you've given it to people who are on a mission I don't support, and are murdering others in my name, and I am given no choice in the matter.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 11:28 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Damn, sounds JUST like you!

No, Niki, nothing like me, even remotely

Quote:

You ROUTINELY state "facts"...you state your opinions, then go on to insist they're facts, even when they're PROVEN, and add to it personal insults.

Fixed that for ya, darlin.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 11:31 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Then explain to us all why you were so adamantly AGAINST the so-called "Cordoba 'mosque'" (not) at Ground Zero? Weren't you specifically holding those living today for what happened literally hundreds of years ago?

No, 9/11/2001. Check your calendar, brah.

Quote:

Guess it's different when you're talking about "them", right?

It's what makes US better than THEM'S who did this.

Even you should know that.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Who was bashing ? I was merely stating fact. I've yet to begin to 'bash'.

Kwickie loves to make false, unsubstantiated accusations, because he knows he has no case, nothing of any real significance to add, so he just trolls away.

Stating that fact isn't in the least bit 'bashing'.

Riiiiiight. Like how you stated as "fact" that I was a "fucking liar" for pointing out that OUR little Iraq adventure had led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Yeah, I sure must've been "trolling" then, boy, and making all sorts of crazy-ass unsubstantiated accusations - all of which were subsequently shown to be true and accurate, of course. At which point you ran away from the thread, as you always do.

It's long been established that your "RapFacts™" have little to nothing to do with objective reality. We know all that already.

When I point out that you're a racist for saying that it bugs you that our President is black, you claim to have never said such a thing in your life. When I post YOUR words saying exactly that, you claim I'm lying. Then you admit that you said such things, but you didn't really *mean* them. Then you start calling me names for making you in effect admit that you really are a racist asshole. It's the same story time after time. I call you on your bullshit, and you deny, deny, deny, then rationalize, obfuscate, make excuses, and then run away. It's your standard operating procedure. It's what you do.

When I post up YOUR post about a Congressman dying whom you said should be killed, you try to deny that, too, until finally you're forced to face the truth, at which point you get angry at me for quoting your words back to you.

When you claim that 95% of Americans don't pay any taxes at all, I call you on it. When I quote your post and provide links, you deny, then offer a mealy-mouthed caveat ("I was really tired"), but NEVER admit that you were outright wrong, and NEVER offer anything close to an apology. Nope, instead you double-down on your idiocy and launch into the name-calling and insults, while accusing everybody who disagrees with you of being childish and stupid.

Meanwhile, you seem to have a lack of ability to NOT troll my every post. I post up something about a commercial, you claim you saw it first; I post something about a show, and you have to chime in to tell everyone that you know MORE about the show, despite offering no evidence at all. Just pure trolling on your part, and nothing but baseless accusations. It's all you have, all you've ever had, and it's what makes you exactly the same as KKKaney, and why nobody here would miss either of you if you left. You ran away before, and the site was much better for your absence.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 11:37 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
You know Rap ...

At first you were all about revenge for 9/11, and Bush and Rush. Then you were all about WMDs and that roaring economy and killing Hussein. Then it segued into Palin and guns. Now you can't get enough of Bachman and Beck and you are as anti-Muslim as any true-believing right-wing christian-nutcase.

Quite a journey they've led you on.

Do you even know what you mean by claiming I was " all about " ?

Sounds like you have no idea. Trust me, I'm far more than "about" what you claim. A lot more.

And you claim you're laughing at me ?

I fail to see how I'm suppose to care, even a little.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Damn, sounds JUST like you!

No, Niki, nothing like me, even remotely

Quote:

You ROUTINELY state "facts"...you state your opinions, then go on to insist they're facts, even when they're PROVEN, and add to it personal insults.

Fixed that for ya, darlin.

Note that your "fix" there still involves you adding personal insults to every debate.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 11:47 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Goodness, why is anyone trying to argue with Raptor? It's obviously a waste of energy; as I said before, he'll never admit he's wrong, he'll rationalize, defend, sidestep and attack any effort to do so, so why bother? He'll just do something childish like reverse the meaning of my statement, even tho' he's the one who most often makes statements he says are facts, without proof, then when challenged says he PROVED his point, irregardless of facts.

He turns discussions like this into bullshit about whether he said something or not (along with personal insults) to avoid addressing the real issue. It's a great way to get the discussion off track; and even when he does "address" an issue, it's with a closed, brainwashed mind.

Yes to all you said, Kiki, and thanx, I understand what you meant now.

And yes, Raptor, it does precisely describe you, despite your claims to the contrary. All the snarking in the world doesn't change that. Me, I'm not bothering further; enjoy yourselves.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 11:52 AM

America loves a winner!

Not 'deaths', murders, of 100,000's of CIVILIANS. You've yet to back that claim up.

Facts are facts. Whether you choose to believe them or not.

You accused me of being racist, but never "pointed it out" . Because that's what small minded idiots on the Left do, when they run out of intelligent things to say.

I take nothing back about what I said w/ regards to the late Congressman of which you speak.

Obama said 95% of Americans got a tax cut. That's a lie. I said 95% don't even PAY income taxes, and clearly, that was hyperbole and ridiculing Obama's asinine claim. I recall correctly pointing out that some 45% + of working Americans do not in fact pay any net income taxes, and on that,I'm 100% correct.

You're the one who trolls MY posts, not the other way 'round. What 'show' are you even babbling about ? Sounds to me that you have a certain type of envy goin' on. LOL !

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 8:02 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

About the original situation, what a mess. I do think it was irresponsable for that guy in Fla to burn a Koran and let the word get out about it, he must have known that people in the Middle East would get fanatical about it and bad stuff would follow, if he didn't know then he's not too bright. Waht a rutting mess.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, April 4, 2011 5:49 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rion, he didn't just "let the word get out", he ANNOUNCED IT--like I said, he's doing it exclusively for the attention, and he's quite willing to exchange lives--even AMERICAN lives--for a bit of fame. That's despicable beyond words, in my opinion. He also KNEW what the result might be, he said so! At the time he said he knew violence might ensue, but was determined to do it anyway.

Quote:
“Did our action provoke them?” the pastor asked. “Of course. Is it a provocation that can be justified? Is it a provocation that should lead to death? When lawyers provoke me, when banks provoke me, when reporters provoke me, I can’t kill them. That would not fly.

http://stevenleesdouglas.wordpress.com/2011/04/03/koran-burning-pastor
-unrepentant-in-face-of-furor-ny-times/

One wonders, from that, if there is more in his motivaton than the Qur'an alone...

The media actually did try to ignore it:

Quote:
Unlike the worldwide outcry that greeted the pastor’s plan to burn 200 copies of the Koran on Sept. 11 — which he ultimately abandoned — the event last week at the 50-member church was largely ignored by the news media. As of 2 p.m. on Friday, the video of the Koran’s burning on the church Web site had been viewed only 1,500 times.

“The local strategy of everybody was to ignore this,” said the Rev. Lawrence D. Reimer, pastor of the United Church of Gainesville. “It’s just a horrible tragedy that this act triggered the deaths of more innocent people.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42386587/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/

But he had teamed up with Dove and

Quote:
The Truth TV, a satellite channel out of California that is led by Ahmed Abaza, a former Muslim who converted to Christianity and who, Mr. Jones said, sympathizes with the church’s message.

The pastor said The Truth TV reached out to him last year after he canceled his plan to burn the Koran, and a partnership of sorts has since flourished. Mr. Abaza helped provide him with most of the witnesses and lawyers for the mock trial, Mr. Jones said.

This guy is a real fuckwad:

Quote:
Mr. Jones said in an interview with Agence France-Presse on Friday that he was “devastated” by the killings of 12 people in a violent protest in Afghanistan: “We don’t feel responsible for that,” he told the news service.

NOW, of course, he's in high dudgeon:

Quote:
In a statement, Mr. Jones demanded that the United States and United Nations take “immediate action” against Muslim nations in retaliation for the deaths. “The time has come to hold Islam accountable,” he said.

He also called on the United Nations to act against “Muslim-dominated countries,” which he said “must alter the laws that govern their countries to allow for individual freedoms and rights, such as the right to worship, free speech and to move freely without fear of being attacked or killed.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42386587/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/

Totally unclear on the concept--we have NO right to tell other countries to change their laws!!

The asshole actually held a MOCK TRIAL, which he made sure was videoed, and "prosecuted" the Q'ran!

Quote:
We burn it because we feel a deep obligation to stay with the court system of America. The court system of America does not allow convicted criminals to go free. And that is why we feel obligated to do this.”

Before the March 20 service, Mr. Jones asked if the church’s Web site was streaming the event, according to the video. He was assured that it was. Mr. Jones then gave the “defense attorney” the opportunity to leave.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42386587/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/

If there are sharks in the water where some people are swimming, and you throw a bunch of chum in, do you blame the sharks alone, or the guy who threw in the chum, too? There is absolutely NO excusing the horror of what they did, but I think he should be held to account too. He did it quite deliberately, knowing what the probable result would be.

It's a tiny church--many members have left and there are only a couple of dozen now, supposedly. Jones says he's "no longer welcome in Gainesville" — which he considers too small and unenlightened to understand his message — and is seeking to move.

First, though, he has to sell the church’s property, which is not easy in Florida, one of the nation’s foreclosure capitals. And as his personal stake in his mission grows deeper, his bank account is running dry. So this was a way to get attention, obviously, by an irresponsible kook.

By the way, his church has joined the good old Westboro folk for a few protests, which kind of says it all. Just a typical American Sicko...we have plenty of them, and they feel no responsibility for the results of their actions.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, April 4, 2011 5:59 AM

America loves a winner!

It's just a completely different set of values. They see their holy book as being far more precious than life itself.

I happen to disagree w/ that mindset. Allah's words can be printed , again and again. Each one of his creations, that being US, is unique.

I can kinda see the point the FL 'preacher' was making, that if he gives in to THEIR world view, and does what THEY want him to do, then they win. And I understand the sentiment for those who aren't Muslim to want to destroy their holy book... , but how 'Christian' is such an act ?

Not very , imo.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, April 4, 2011 7:37 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not 'deaths', murders, of 100,000's of CIVILIANS. You've yet to back that claim up.

We DID back that claim up, with many different sources, links, and averages. You disagree that those sources are correct. I agree there is room for debate.

But we DID back the claim up.

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Monday, April 4, 2011 7:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not 'deaths', murders, of 100,000's of CIVILIANS. You've yet to back that claim up.
We DID back that claim up, with many different sources, links, and averages. You disagree that those sources are correct. I agree there is room for debate.

But we DID back the claim up.

Even if the 100,000's number is correct in calculating "deaths"...I think you are confused on the definition of the term "murder'. So, go back read AUrapts post and try again.

I'm sure when their is collateral damage and "deaths" in American attacks...Murdering civilians is not on the minds of most military troops, however, when a suicide bomber blows up a civilian bus...murder IS his goal. Well, it's true.....

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Monday, April 4, 2011 8:00 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Religions throughout history have murdered civilians. Are you arguing that they didn't?? Just the Crusades alone murdered uncounted number of "civilians" merely because of their religion; so have other religions. You may choose to ignore history, but valid reasons have been presented as to why we CAN'T ignore it, or we are being deliberately obtuse.

I can't find where anyone said 100,000s of civilians except in your post, so I'm not sure what you're refuting, but if it's that, you haven't a leg to stand on.

Let's get current, if you like:

Quote:
Commanders in Afghanistan are bracing themselves for possible riots and public fury triggered by the publication of "trophy" photographs of US soldiers posing with the dead bodies of defenceless Afghan civilians they killed.

the deliberate murders of Afghan civilians by a rogue US Stryker tank unit that operated in the southern province of Kandahar last year.
Some of the activities of the self-styled "kill team" are already public, with 12 men currently on trial in Seattle for their role in the killing of three civilians.

Five of the soldiers are on trial for pre-meditated murder, after they staged killings to make it look like they were defending themselves from Taliban attacks. Other charges include the mutilation of corpses, the possession of images of human casualties and drug abuse.

Special agents from the US army's criminal investigations command are now re-examining an incident in 2004, when Sgt Gibbs and other soldiers allegedly fired on an Iraqi family in a car, killing two adults and a child.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/21/us-army-kill-team-afghanista
n-posed-pictures-murdered-civilians?cat=world&type=article

"Murdering" innocent civilians may not be on the mind of MOST U.S. soldiers, but it definitely occurs. These don't even involve religion, just having "fun" slaughtering innocent civilians. That current enough for you??

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, April 4, 2011 8:18 AM

Well, that may be true, but murder is on the minds of EVERY suicide bomber and I'm sure 100,000's have not been "murdered" by US soldiers. Also, this was in reponse to AUrapts point about NOW and ancient history...But you can talk about the crusades if it makes you feel better or you are trying to muddy the waters. It sucks trying to defend a losing position, don't it? Idiot.

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Monday, April 4, 2011 8:26 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

No, "idiot", perfectly valid reasons have been given why we MUST look at the bigger picture, including history. You just choose to ignore them. The Crusades are a valid point, as are any "murders" of innocents; I get no joy in bringing it up, and it doesn't deflect anything. All murders are horrific, but to my mind, moreso those committed just for the fun of it because soldiers know they won't be held responsible unless someone finds out.

Murder may be on the mind of every suicide bomber, but it was on the mind of the American soldiers who committed it too, so how does that negate the argument? Numbers? Numbers are irrelevant to the argument; the FACT is that there are American soldiers who choose to murder civilians FOR FUN. Just for fun; how does that stack up against doing it for one's religion?? That's more moral, are you saying?

Those are just the ones that were uncovered, too...we can't know how many others there are. But we have lots and lots of information on how many American soldiers did it in Vietnam, we just don't know how many in Iraq or Afghanistan. Again, your defense of the argument is no defense.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, April 4, 2011 8:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
No, "idiot", perfectly valid reasons have been given why we MUST look at the bigger picture, including history. You just choose to ignore them. The Crusades are a valid point, as are any "murders" of innocents; I get no joy in bringing it up, and it doesn't deflect anything. All murders are horrific, but to my mind, moreso those committed just for the fun of it because soldiers know they won't be held responsible unless someone finds out.

Murder may be on the mind of every suicide bomber, but it was on the mind of the American soldiers who committed it too, so how does that negate the argument? Numbers? Numbers are irrelevant to the argument; the FACT is that there are American soldiers who choose to murder civilians FOR FUN. Just for fun; how does that stack up against doing it for one's religion?? That's more moral, are you saying?

Those are just the ones that were uncovered, too...we can't know how many others there are. But we have lots and lots of information on how many American soldiers did it in Vietnam, we just don't know how many in Iraq or Afghanistan. Again, your defense of the argument is no defense.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

No. It is idiotic. The US did not partake in the crusades...at least to my knowledge. Maybe your California public school education taught you something different.

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Monday, April 4, 2011 8:44 AM

America loves a winner!

Wow...

Kaneman nails it.

re: murder

Good job

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, April 4, 2011 8:48 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think the people on both sides of this Koran burning issue are stupid. I agree that the pastor shouldn't have done what he did, I can't identify with him at all, it was childish and immature to do it that way and there was no logical point to it. And he knew it would piss off all the fanatics over there and that heads would roll, literally, maybe he should get in some stupidity/negligence trouble, but then again freedom of speech can include freedom of stupid behaviors. But that was like shouting fire in a crowded autitorium, it was just stupid. Just for kicks to quote Obama, "The whole thing was handled ... stupidly." After that speech my dad was convinced that stupidly wasn't a word, we had to look it up to show him it was. But he and I like to say that things we don't like are "stupidly", note that we're using the word wrong on purpose, even though Obama did use it right. How does that relate to this? It doesn't, except that this whole thing was indeed handled stupidly.

Is there a law by which this pastor could be prosecuted for his reckless behavior?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, April 4, 2011 2:17 PM