Cops use pepper spray on 8 year old during tantrum by canttakesky

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Being in the middle I get shot at from both sides.

I'm in the middle too, but I don't get "shot" in the same way you get "shot."

That is because, despite your so-called "socially liberal" platform, your social/non-fiscal positions conform to an overall pattern of "conservative" values that justifies the use of force and punishment.

Just off the top of my head because of recent threads....

Pepper spraying an 8 year old? You think it is justified. I think it is not.
Bradley Manning's treatment? You think it is justified. I think it is not.

Even though you and I are both "libertarians," your social/non-fiscal positions are more consistent with those of conservatives and right-wingers. My social positions are more consistent with those of liberals and left-wingers.

So I don't get shot by liberals that much, even though my fiscal positions are conservative (e.g. I want to end all federal income taxes). Even my conservative fiscal positions have liberal streaks. (e.g. I believe ending corporate/military welfare should be a priority over ending public welfare.)

From an outsider, non-libertarian perspective, it looks like you find the jackboot of authority and govt force in many situations justified. You just don't want that jackboot on your pocketbook.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 7:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Being in the middle I get shot at from both sides.

...Just off the top of my head because of recent threads....

Pepper spraying an 8 year old? You think it is justified. I think it is not.
Bradley Manning's treatment? You think it is justified. I think it is not.

The pepper spraying of an 8 year old I said was understandable, given that police were called in. I also said the failure lay with the school and the parents. But that got glossed over in your version of events.

Bradley Manning is receiving appropriate treatment for his legal situation, based on the uniform code of military justice. If you don't have an understanding of military justice, it is much harsher than civilian justice. As I recall you characterized his treatment as "torture" when it could be at best characterized as discomfort.

Label yourself if you want to. Don't pretend to tell me what my politics are or are not.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 7:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
The pepper spraying of an 8 year old I said was understandable,

Is "understandable" not another way to say, "justified"? I mean to say, whereas I would vote for sanctioning the cops who did this, you wouldn't.

Quote:
Bradley Manning is receiving appropriate treatment for his legal situation, based on the uniform code of military justice.

Again, "appropriate" is another word for "justified." Whereas I would change the policies that make this type of treatment appropriate/justified, you wouldn't. The point remains the same.

Quote:
If you don't have an understanding of military justice, it is much harsher than civilian justice.

I understand that. And I said that extra harshness is wrong.

Quote:
Don't pretend to tell me what my politics are or are not.

I do not believe the use of the word "justified" misrepresents your position. But if you wish, I would be happy to change my statement to this:

Pepper spraying an 8 year old? You think it is understandable. I think it is not.
Bradley Manning's treatment? You think it is appropriate. I think it is not.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 7:53 AM

The police should not have been called. Given that they were a less-than-happy outcome was inevitable. Parse that however you want. But, as usual, more details are emerging.

Quote:

By SHEILA V KUMAR, Associated Press – Thu Apr 7, 10:45 am ET
DENVER – The staff at the Colorado elementary school said no one could calm 8-year-old Aidan Elliott.
He had just thrown a TV and chairs and was now trying to use a cart to bust through a door to an office where teachers had taken some young students for safety.
They called the police.
The officers found him with a foot-long piece of wood trim with a knife-like point in one hand and a cardboard box in the other.
"Come get me, f-----," he said.
When they couldn't calm him down, one squirted Aidan with pepper spray. He blocked it with the cardboard box.
A second squirt hit the youngster in the side of the head, and down he went, according to an account of the Feb. 22 standoff in a police report first obtained by KUSA-TV.
Aidan and his mother went on national talk shows on Wednesday to say using pepper spray on an unruly 8-year-old was too much.
Police in the Denver suburb of Lakewood and officials at Glennon Heights Elementary in Lakewood say it could've been worse.
"Had the officers chosen to be hands-on with him, the potential for him getting some type of injury and, maybe even officers, would have been much higher," police spokesman Steve Davis said.
"It was the best choice made," he said.
It wasn't the first time officers had been called to pacify Aidan, Davis said. They'd been able to talk him down in two other incidents.
Mandy Elliott said she wished authorities had chosen to talk him down in the latest incident. She also wanted police to get special training in dealing with children. Aidan has since transferred to another school.
When asked about the pepper spray and what he did, Aidan said: "I kind of deserved it."
Aidan started acting up while on the bus to school, the police report said. He began screaming and then continued after breakfast while throwing chairs at his teachers.
"He was being very aggressive, very violent," said Melissa Reeves, the school district spokeswoman.
There were eight students with Aidan in the classroom, Reeves said, and teachers removed them after he became violent. They barricaded themselves in an office, as he tried to bust in, Davis said.
Aidan was swearing and shouting expletives at his teachers and threatening them, Davis said. He taunted police when they arrived.
"I wanted to make something sharp, like if they came out, `cause I was so mad at them," the boy said on NBC's "Today" show. "I was going to try to whack them with it."
After hitting him with the second squirt, officers took Aidan outside for some fresh air to help dissipate the spray. Paramedics were treating his red, irritated face with cool water when his mother arrived.
According to the report, Mandy Elliott asked her son what he did.
When he told her he had been hit with pepper spray, she is quoted as saying, "Well, you probably deserved it."

Here, let's repeat the important paragraph for the slow students.

Quote:

"Had the officers chosen to be hands-on with him, the potential for him getting some type of injury and, maybe even officers, would have been much higher," police spokesman Steve Davis said.
"It was the best choice made," he said.

So, this was an established pattern of behavior from an out of control child. The teachers were so concerned for their safety and the safety of other students that they had to barricade themselves in another room and this little barbarian was trying to force the door open with an improvised battering ram. Then the grade school viking grabs his sword and shield and hurling curses, throws himself at the police.

You know, I think the police were totally justified.

Now, onto Private Manning. Military justice has to be more harsh than civilian justice. These people swore an oath that states they will follow legal orders. When orders don't get followed, especially in a war zone, people get dead. Did he violate orders? Almost certainly, given that the documents he released are classified, not to be disclosed to unauthorized personnel. He released them. Open and shut.

I suppose by your logic a murderer should receive the same sentence as a person who runs a red light. After all, there shouldn't be more harsh justice.

Even in civilian law there are levels of responsibility that can merit more harsh justice. For example, if one is a possessor of a concealed weapons permit and knowingly violates the weapon laws of the issuing state the courts hold you to a higher standard as you have been educated on those laws.

Private Manning is going to get his day in court. A military court. He is a member of the military. He is accused of violating orders. If he is convicted he will receive military justice. It is harsh. Military life is harsh. Deal with it.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 8:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:You know, I think the police were totally justified.

As I said, I knew I did not misrepresent your views on that point.

Quote:

I suppose by your logic a murderer should receive the same sentence as a person who runs a red light. After all, there shouldn't be more harsh justice.

More harsh justice is not a problem with me. I never said I objected to different levels of punishment.

But harshness must have a limit. Crossing that limit is a problem with me.

I don't have a problem with military prison being harsher than civilian prison, under a certain limit. Manning's treatment, routine or not, crosses the limit of acceptable harshness.

For me, you do not use pepper spray on a child. It is a dangerous and painful chemical weapon that is banned or controlled under firearms laws in most countries. The cops crossed the line here.

For me, you do not subject someone to solitary confinement for more than a few weeks. More than that crosses the line into mental torture.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 8:36 AM

So, let me get this straight. You don't want the police to use pepper spray on a child. You want two full grown men to wrestle the 8 year old down to the ground and slap the cuffs on him, without regard for what injury might occur?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 11:18 AM

I'd still like to know what set him off.

There's kind of an eerie, ironic echo in his behavior to what usually happened when the jerkass jock and his goons at the top of the social pecking order decided to play that shit with me - something which stopped utterly around 4th-5th grade, but till that point resulted in a complete berserkerang of this type.

I still don't think public school is equipped to handle this kid, mind you - but consider, just for a moment, if the provoking factor was one of the various factions or cliques pushing him around, and how at that state of mental development he's gonna see it as the school/teachers backing the bastards up, and consider ANY further reinforcements to be aggressors.

And, yanno, in most cases - he'd prolly be right.

As always, easier to blame the target and deal with one set of irate parents than several, yes ?

Over time, this can, and DOES, result in a behavioral problem of this nature, a low grade version of PTSD and reactive hypervigilance prodded by obvious (to THEM, cause they assume the adults KNOW, even when they're kinda clueless about what's really going on) injustice, resulting in drastically disproportionate aggression in response to perceived threat.

So yeah, this kid is beyond public schools ability to handle - but I find myself wondering more about his motivations cause from the admittedly slim info we have, SOMETHING about this reads strange... I don't necessarily accept the consideration that the kid is sociopathic, cause at that age and stage of mental/emotional development, you *don't* feel any fucking guilt if you think your actions were justified in some way - not that he's gonna SAY that to adults, cause obviously the little sucker is quite clever.

Frankly, he scares me - when I look at those eyes I see what I once was staring out of them, and they have NO IDEA what they're potentially dealing with - they really, really need to consult CITIVAS and Doc Perry, cause even conventional psych personnel will be completely out of their league here.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 1:35 PM

Damn, the whole situation is creepy - just as an afterthought, I was thinking about other discussions we've had here, related to the concept of NOT trying to impose your will on folks capable of real destruction without damn good reason - and yet folks do it, or try to, cause they can't stand anything outside of their control.
This never has good results.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BullyingADragon

Sure, it's easy enough to do to kids, even tough and clever ones, but yanno, eventually they grow up, and provided they survive (most of them don't) they also eventually become able to subvert, deflect or otherwise befoul efforts to "control" them - and most of them spend the rest of their lives retaliating for it.

And yea, verily, escalating the violence till they break, Dobson-style, will TEMPORARILY make them obey, put them in your control, for a while, while you're looking... but one day that leash is gonna snap, and then...

FYI, if you can stomach it, I do reccommend Elfen Lied, cause the inherent morality behind it is firmly rooted in the Nature vs Nurture debate, in that HOW YOU TREAT PEOPLE, determines in large part what they become.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture

And you wonder where monsters come from.

-Frem

For the record, my opinion is that genetics loads the gun, but environment pulls the trigger.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 2:02 PM

Seems all the rage, as of late.

Bibb County Teacher Arrested, Accused of Pepper Spraying Student
http://www.41nbc.com/news/local-news/3090-bibb-county-teacher-arrested
-accused-of-pepper-spraying-student
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/barbara-neely-teacher-who-pepper-spraye
d-student-quits-2775251.html

Guess she cut out the middle man, eh ?

Oh, and in regards to Aidan, from his grandfather.

Quote:
his grandson Aidan experienced a painful and private "trauma" prior to 2009, that has since triggered angry outbursts at school.

"Something traumatic has happened that's caused the problems," he said, "and I can't really go into it right now. It's confidential and under investigation."

"That's not excusing his behavior. But that's a reason why he acts out," he said.

I knew damn well I was gonna find that, and have a pretty good idea of the specifics with no more information than has been given, simply because these things follow very predictable (in that the youth takes most of the blame and psychological damage) patterns, all initiated by some level of abuse, betrayal of trust, and mistreatment - the spark that lights the fuse, as it were.

And sure as day follows dawn, until someone who knows what the hell they're doing (which excludes most conventional pill-pusher pysch folk) gets involved, it snowballs until it goes bang, sometimes repeatedly in an ongoing pattern with each explosion of violence only temporarily releasing the pressure, and attempts to use force just increase it.

#ETA: While I still do think pepper spray was inadvisable, just to clarify - despite the "hug of life" USUALLY being very effective without being needlessly violent/forceful...
In this case no, in fact hell no - ok, yes, he's eight years old, but from the description of his tactics and the background I have so far, NO - you DO NOT want to get in arms reach of this kid when he's lit up, he WILL fuck you up, adult or not, this is a different kind of situation than any of you realize. /ETA End. #

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 2:07 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
I don't necessarily accept the consideration that the kid is sociopathic, cause at that age and stage of mental/emotional development, you *don't* feel any fucking guilt if you think your actions were justified in some way - not that he's gonna SAY that to adults, cause obviously the little sucker is quite clever.

Absolutely. I wanted to address that one to NOBC, but I wasn't sure how to fit it in. But yes, that one is consistent with what I've seen of eight year olds, and hell, adults too. You don't have to be a sociopath to react that way to something like what happened. No one is going to be remorseful if they think on some level that maybe they were in the right, or even if they weren't right, much less remorse if they feel there was an overreaction or disproportionate retribution.

Quote:
I knew damn well I was gonna find that, and have a pretty good idea of the specifics with no more information than has been given, simply because these things follow very predictable (in that the youth takes most of the blame and psychological damage) patterns, all initiated by some level of abuse, betrayal of trust, and mistreatment - the spark that lights the fuse, as it were.

mmm hmm.

I never had it as bad as you did, but I can see the pattern here myself. They only difference is I never went so far as to try to get a shank, I fought most of my battles with my fists, which was a product of being in a much better environment.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 2:34 PM

Byte: What's creepin me out the worst, is how relevant it is to what happened back in 1978-1981, posted in the Miranda thread - turn it around and present those exact same events from an EXTERNAL, rather than internal viewpoint, and wouldn't they look almost exactly like this ?

About the only real difference of note is that my "issues" were physical/emotional abuses exclusively, which I suspect is not the case here.

Knowing the mindset that intricately, dude, this kid is looking to kill someone in retaliation for how society has treated him, and till someone defuses him it's a damn good idea not to paint the bullseye on oneself by using threat or force, not against a berserkerang with a revenge kick riding him and knowledge of how effective common objects can be as weapons or force multipliers.

On a snide, dark humor kind of note, one can almost say we're lookin at the next Fremdfirma.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 3:45 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Being in the middle I get shot at from both sides.

...Just off the top of my head because of recent threads....

Pepper spraying an 8 year old? You think it is justified. I think it is not.
Bradley Manning's treatment? You think it is justified. I think it is not.

The pepper spraying of an 8 year old I said was understandable, given that police were called in. I also said the failure lay with the school and the parents. But that got glossed over in your version of events.

So you're saying that any time the cops are called, for any reason at all, pepper-spraying whomever is at the scene is "understandable"?

Quote:

Bradley Manning is receiving appropriate treatment for his legal situation, based on the uniform code of military justice. If you don't have an understanding of military justice, it is much harsher than civilian justice. As I recall you characterized his treatment as "torture" when it could be at best characterized as discomfort.

You're one of those guys who calls waterboarding "discomfort" too, right? Hey, all John McCain ever went through was a bit of "discomfort", eh?

Quote:

Label yourself if you want to. Don't pretend to tell me what my politics are or are not.

Why's that? Is that a game only you are allowed to play? You have plenty of fun labeling others and telling them what their beliefs are; why do you get sand in your vagina when it's thrown back at you?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 5:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

The pepper spraying of an 8 year old I said was understandable, given that police were called in. I also said the failure lay with the school and the parents. But that got glossed over in your version of events.

So you're saying that any time the cops are called, for any reason at all, pepper-spraying whomever is at the scene is "understandable"?

Quote:

Bradley Manning is receiving appropriate treatment for his legal situation, based on the uniform code of military justice. If you don't have an understanding of military justice, it is much harsher than civilian justice. As I recall you characterized his treatment as "torture" when it could be at best characterized as discomfort.

You're one of those guys who calls waterboarding "discomfort" too, right? Hey, all John McCain ever went through was a bit of "discomfort", eh?

Quote:

Label yourself if you want to. Don't pretend to tell me what my politics are or are not.

Why's that? Is that a game only you are allowed to play? You have plenty of fun labeling others and telling them what their beliefs are; why do you get sand in your vagina when it's thrown back at you?

Let's break it down. I said that the police should not have been called, based on the original information. When I found more information that went into more depth about the actual conditions and the actions of the child I retracted that. Calling the police was appropriate. In this situation, with the child's actions, the pepper spraying was probably the best action the officers could have taken.

Now, if the police are called the next time Kwicko goes off the medicine and Special K is waving a butcher knife in the street, screaming obscenities at the neighbors with a McCain/Palin sticker on their car. When the officers arrive and Kwicko charges at them, waving a knife and screaming; "I'm going to kill you fuckers!" No, pepper spraying would not be appropriate. Shots from a duty sidearm to center of mass until the assailant was down would be appropriate there.

So, to answer your question. No, pepper spraying is not always appropriate.

PFC Manning isn't being tortured. What is his torture? He's not in solitary. He's not being forced to be naked, and I would question the torture value of that in any case. He is forcibly detained, but there is ample evidence to hold him. Waterboarding is torture. Putting someone in a cage where they cannot stretch is torture. Denying someone needed medical treatment is torture. None of these things are happening to PFC Manning.

You know, I'm not going to discuss the issue of labeling with someone who has a signature directly antagonistic to anyone more conservative than they are.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 8, 2011 6:47 PM

Hardware, I know he's winding you up on purpose, but really, put down the shovel while you're still knee deep.

Otherwise your rabidly psychotic hatred of anyone who doesn't think and act just as you desire will be more revealed than it already is.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 9, 2011 2:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Hardware, I know he's winding you up on purpose, but really, put down the shovel while you're still knee deep.

Otherwise your rabidly psychotic hatred of anyone who doesn't think and act just as you desire will be more revealed than it already is.

Actually it is a rabid hatred of people who don't use and cannot recognize logic.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 9, 2011 6:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Hardware, I know he's winding you up on purpose, but really, put down the shovel while you're still knee deep.

Otherwise your rabidly psychotic hatred of anyone who doesn't think and act just as you desire will be more revealed than it already is.

Actually it is a rabid hatred of people who don't use and cannot recognize logic.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

I hear ya. There's not one logical thing in this rant of yours:

Quote:
Now, if the police are called the next time Kwicko goes off the medicine and Special K is waving a butcher knife in the street, screaming obscenities at the neighbors with a McCain/Palin sticker on their car. When the officers arrive and Kwicko charges at them, waving a knife and screaming; "I'm going to kill you fuckers!" No, pepper spraying would not be appropriate. Shots from a duty sidearm to center of mass until the assailant was down would be appropriate there.

Plenty of rabid hatred for those who don't believe as you do, though. We all get that; we understand that you rabidly hate and really, really want to kill anyone who disagrees with your police-state mindset, or questions your authori-tie. Really, we get that.

We also all get that you're The Original Internet Tough-Guy™.

ETA: By the way, in the future, in case you were wondering, *REAL* Libertarians, of whom there are a few here, rarely post up their fantasy scenarios about how they'd love to murder Kwicko. I notice it's a trait that *MOST* right-wing authoritarians can't seem to suppress, though. It's almost Pavlovian - I ask a few pointed questions, call your authoritarian belief system into question, and you can't help but post up your murder fantasies or how you'd love to shoot me full of holes.

I get that you love your "freedom". I also get that you don't extend that love of freedom to others, that you have no respect at all for others' freedom to believe differently than you.

See, Can'tTakeSky and AnthonyT, they're *ACTUAL* Libertarians. Frem, too, to an extent (though he hates being lumped into ANY group, really). DreamTrove, on some days. SergeantX, who's rarely here. I can't really recall a time when any of those people posted about their rabid desire to kill me, despite the fact that we share some quite pointed disagreements between us. Seems *REAL* Libertarians believe that "freedom" also means the freedom for others to disagree and the freedom of others to believe differently without it being a threat to their existence. Right-wing authoritarians don't believe that at all. To them, any dissent must be silenced, by murder if necessary. (Actually, that's all too often the PREFERRED method of right-wing thugs - not their last resort, but their very first)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 9, 2011 6:15 PM

Kwicko,
Let me know when you have something to add to this conversation.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 9, 2011 8:06 PM

Kill ? ... no.

Beat upside the head with a broken Honda clutch drum... okay, sometimes.

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 2:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Kill ? ... no.

Beat upside the head with a broken Honda clutch drum... okay, sometimes.

-F

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Plenty of rabid hatred for those who don't believe as you do, though. We all get that; we understand that you rabidly hate and really, really want to kill anyone who disagrees with your police-state mindset, or questions your authori-tie. Really, we get that.

Your selective editing skills are so great I suspect you must work for San Francisco Chronicle, Los Angeles Times, Chicago Sun-Times or some other liberal bird cage liner.

Here is the original question you asked;

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So you're saying that any time the cops are called, for any reason at all, pepper-spraying whomever is at the scene is "understandable"?

My reply;

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Now, if the police are called the next time Kwicko goes off the medicine and Special K is waving a butcher knife in the street, screaming obscenities at the neighbors with a McCain/Palin sticker on their car. When the officers arrive and Kwicko charges at them, waving a knife and screaming; "I'm going to kill you fuckers!" No, pepper spraying would not be appropriate. Shots from a duty sidearm to center of mass until the assailant was down would be appropriate there.

As I just demonstrated, this is merely a hypothetical situation where the use of pepper spray would not be appropriate. You got some sand in your pussy and seemed to think it was some fantasy I had cooked up over how your days are going to end. The truth is; I don't care about you enough to care how you end up. I mean, for the self described "angriest man on the internet" I'd have to guess you'll go from a massive stroke while posting some leftist blather on some board you troll.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
We also all get that you're The Original Internet Tough-Guy™.

Worried about someone taking away your title? For someone who describes themselves as the "angriest man on the internet" you don't seem to use that anger very well. Mostly your attacks seem to be about twisting words and making personal attacks instead of sticking to the actual issue. Exactly the same passive-aggressive tactics that a woman would use.

But I don't really expect logic from a leftist.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 7:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

For someone who describes themselves as the "angriest man on the internet" you don't seem to use that anger very well. Mostly your attacks seem to be about twisting words and making personal attacks instead of sticking to the actual issue. Exactly the same passive-aggressive tactics that a woman would use.

But I don't really expect logic from a leftist.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

I would say that Kwickie has worked long and hard on his M.O., but I doubt he's ever done any real 'work'. In fact, the ' attack the individual, avoid dealing w/ the issue' method is a tried and true Leftist game plan, from Saul Alinky himself.

Rules for Radicals - Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it.

“The first step in community organization is community disorganization.”

Liberals by their very nature refuse to stay on topic, and insist on meandering tactics which interject personal insults. Dealing with facts buries their position, so instead, they attack their rivals on a personal level. It's literally all they have.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:33 AM

So you're a liberal, Rappy ?

Who woulda thunk it.

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 9:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
You want two full grown men to wrestle the 8 year old down to the ground and slap the cuffs on him, without regard for what injury might occur?

No. This too would be unacceptable. This is called a false forced choice. You must choose between A or B. There is nothing else.

Wrestling him without regard for his personal injury is not the only option available if pepper spray isn't used.

It is about a commitment to resolve the situation without ANY injury to anyone. Then you figure how you make that happen, regardless of time and cost.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I would say that Kwickie has worked long and hard on his M.O., but I doubt he's ever done any real 'work'. In fact, the ' attack the individual, avoid dealing w/ the issue' method is a tried and true Leftist game plan, from Saul Alinky himself.

One question: Who the hell is "Saul Alinky"?

Quote:

Conservatives by their very nature refuse to stay on topic, and insist on meandering tactics which interject personal insults. Dealing with facts buries their position, so instead, they attack their rivals on a personal level. It's literally all they have.

Fixed that for ya. You're welcome.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 11:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

Your selective editing skills are so great I suspect you must work for San Francisco Chronicle, Los Angeles Times, Chicago Sun-Times or some other liberal bird cage liner...

You got some sand in your pussy...

I mean, for the self described "angriest man on the internet" I'd have to guess you'll go from a massive stroke...

Mostly your attacks seem to be about twisting words and making personal attacks instead of sticking to the actual issue...

Exactly the same passive-aggressive tactics that a woman would use...

So you're a woman? Aren't those exactly the same tactics you've been using since you showed up here? Seems you know them well, ma'am.

Quote:

But I don't really expect logic from a leftist.

And I don't really expect anything but personal attacks and revenge fantasies from a fascist. Looks like I had you pegged all along. Thanks for proving my point.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 12:16 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
You want two full grown men to wrestle the 8 year old down to the ground and slap the cuffs on him, without regard for what injury might occur?
No. This too would be unacceptable. This is called a false forced choice. You must choose between A or B. There is nothing else.

Wrestling him without regard for his personal injury is not the only option available if pepper spray isn't used.

It is about a commitment to resolve the situation without ANY injury to anyone. Then you figure how you make that happen, regardless of time and cost.

^ Voice of sanity. Clearly a few posters have no ideas on how to deal with a cross little boy other than force.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 3:06 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
^ Voice of sanity. Clearly a few posters have no ideas on how to deal with a cross little boy other than force.

OK. From what I'm catching from this story, this was NOT merely some cross little boy. This was a fucking nutjob in the training, young enough that he can be saved if he's given the right tools. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be what's happening. He'd acted out several times before this. Seems like the "hug" was likely tried more than once, and what did that help? He's just gotten more extreme. So what do you want to do, follow in the mom's footsteps and teach this lesson:

"Poor little boy, people were mean to you, and that's not your fault because you have a *condition*, and no matter what crazy shit you do everyone ought to give you nothing but hugs and chocolates and roses, because you're a poor wittle boy with a *condition*, and you can do whatever your poor wittle *conditioned* heart wants and nothing's your fault..."

OMG, this is so not good for this kid! Yeah, maybe it ain't his fault - maybe he's acting out because he's a victim in some way we don't know. Hell, I've seen it. I'm a teacher and spoke up this year for a kid who'd been acting "odd", and every other teacher seemed out to dismiss him as dangerous, and I had to point out that he might need help.

But let's look at the message that many here seem to want to send to this kid: go ahead and brandish your weapon and threaten people who've done nothing to you. Because you have a "condition" it's A-OK. That's a fine and dandy solution, and nothing even briefly unpleasant should happen to you in response.

OMG. Really? That's what you want to teach a kid with anger issues? He should go ahead and act out - nothing's his fault and no harm will ever come to him because of it.

Whatever happened to the teacher's right to defend him/herself, and the other students? Seems like this kid got the minimal backlash he could have earned for threatening lives. If I had a kid act up like this in my classroom, multiple times, I'd sure as hell call the police. No matter what this kid has been through, he has no right to threaten or harm other students. Or me. But it's not just self-interest. The best thing for a kid who's this far gone is to get some light shone on his issues. Maybe it'll make him step up and look at himself. If he keeps trying this shit without ever having to pay a price, and if he tries it 5-10 years from now when he ain't so a small, he'll be lucky to get nothing but pepper spray. He needs to learn to try something besides violence, and he needs to learn it now.

Seems from the interview he gave that he isn't learning the lesson he needs. Instead, he's learning that he doesn't have to be responsible for himself. If anything's teaching him that he just needs bigger weapons and more resort to violence, it's those who are so eager to make excuses for him. You might make yourself feel good but you're doign this kid no favors.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 3:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

And I don't really expect anything but personal attacks and revenge fantasies from a fascist.

AAAAANNND,.. that's close enough to call a Godwin.Thanks for playing Kwicko. Your signal to noise ratio has just dropped too low for me to pay attention to you.

Don't go away mad. Just go away.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:55 PM

Mal4 - I think EVERYONE in that situation is inadvertantly "teaching" him that might makes right and he needs more force and better weapons, whether they intend it or not.

Again, they have NO idea what they're dealing with, and public school is not by even the remotest possibility capable of dealing with this kid, nor are more conventional psychologists - this is not just a different scale of thing, but rather a whole different TYPE of thing, than they have any experience dealing with.

What folks don't understand is that force isn't gonna work here save on the most tenative, temporary level - he will outwait you, outwit you, and repeat the cycle till you throw up your hands, give up, and leave him the hell alone - which is what he wants.

The only way you'll get through to that kid is to start from scratch, and convince him of the benefit of society, and the ideal buried within the ugly, twisted realities of it, and I mean CONVINCE, and not with force, but with reason - only them will you reach his empathy.

This is a situation which requires specialist intervention, if not full-time care for a period of time - while too many are, not all mental health care facilities are pyschic butchers, and that *IS* where the kid needs to be - if unavailable there are some workarounds, but not bloody many, and it requires some level of trust he's unlikely to invest given what adults have previously done with it.

One of those workarounds was actually the idea of a former teacher of mine, who got a large lop-eared bunny as a class pet in hopes my empathy for the critter would bleed over onto my classmates - she was right, too.

Anyhows, this is less a matter of enabling it than it is the sure and certain knowledge of what DOES NOT WORK, and no knowledge of what might - in fact that very acceptance of who he is may well be the ONLY lever left to work with in order to get through his psychological defenses and reach his empathy, if he has any left.

From his point of view - we're the enemy, us and our society, convincing him otherwise is going to take serious effort if it's even possible, and every use of force is going to set the process back by just that much.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:59 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
^ Voice of sanity. Clearly a few posters have no ideas on how to deal with a cross little boy other than force.
OK. From what I'm catching from this story, this was NOT merely some cross little boy. This was a fucking nutjob in the training, young enough that he can be saved if he's given the right tools. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be what's happening. He'd acted out several times before this. Seems like the "hug" was likely tried more than once, and what did that help? He's just gotten more extreme. So what do you want to do, follow in the mom's footsteps and teach this lesson:

"Poor little boy, people were mean to you, and that's not your fault because you have a *condition*, and no matter what crazy shit you do everyone ought to give you nothing but hugs and chocolates and roses, because you're a poor wittle boy with a *condition*, and you can do whatever your poor wittle *conditioned* heart wants and nothing's your fault..."

OMG, this is so not good for this kid! Yeah, maybe it ain't his fault - maybe he's acting out because he's a victim in some way we don't know. Hell, I've seen it. I'm a teacher and spoke up this year for a kid who'd been acting "odd", and every other teacher seemed out to dismiss him as dangerous, and I had to point out that he might need help.

But let's look at the message that many here seem to want to send to this kid: go ahead and brandish your weapon and threaten people who've done nothing to you. Because you have a "condition" it's A-OK. That's a fine and dandy solution, and nothing even briefly unpleasant should happen to you in response.

OMG. Really? That's what you want to teach a kid with anger issues? He should go ahead and act out - nothing's his fault and no harm will ever come to him because of it.

Whatever happened to the teacher's right to defend him/herself, and the other students? Seems like this kid got the minimal backlash he could have earned for threatening lives. If I had a kid act up like this in my classroom, multiple times, I'd sure as hell call the police. No matter what this kid has been through, he has no right to threaten or harm other students. Or me. But it's not just self-interest. The best thing for a kid who's this far gone is to get some light shone on his issues. Maybe it'll make him step up and look at himself. If he keeps trying this shit without ever having to pay a price, and if he tries it 5-10 years from now when he ain't so a small, he'll be lucky to get nothing but pepper spray. He needs to learn to try something besides violence, and he needs to learn it now.

Seems from the interview he gave that he isn't learning the lesson he needs. Instead, he's learning that he doesn't have to be responsible for himself. If anything's teaching him that he just needs bigger weapons and more resort to violence, it's those who are so eager to make excuses for him. You might make yourself feel good but you're doign this kid no favors.

You've misread and misinterpreted what I have said. In an earlier post I said that teachers need to protect themselves and other students from harm, and that I had actually called the police on an out of control young person myself, albeit reluctantly because they often make such a hash of it. This particular time they didn't because they were actually two very well trained young women who listened to what we needed to diffuse the situation, rather than going in capsicum spray blazing.

You don't always need to fight aggression with aggression, and in truth, use of force and aggression as response to aggression will most certainly escalate a situation, rather than diffuse. That being said, there are times when force and aggression need to be used, but it should be sparingly on adults, more sparingly on young people and probably hardly ever on a child.

This is not about whether the child not facing the consequences of his actions, this is about safely diffusing a situation. Appropriate consequences should come later.

As for diffusing such situations, there is plenty of training out there that police and teachers could access, but people have to have some belief that diffusion is better than confrontation. Sadly, that seems to be rather lacking in armed forces training for the most part.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 5:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

AAAAANNND,.. that's close enough to call a Godwin.Thanks for playing Kwicko. Your signal to noise ratio has just dropped too low for me to pay attention to you.

You know that calling a Godwin is the new Godwin, right?

But thanks for pointing out that anyone who ever brings up fascism or Nazis instantly loses all relevance and credibility. You've just confirmed that I never need to pay any attention to anything the GOP, teabaggers like yourself, FauxNews, or any of the whole right-wing media apparatus has to say; all can be dismissed out of hand.

Quote:

Don't go away mad. Just go away.

No thanks. I think I'll stay.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:41 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think Mal for Pres and Frem both are right. The kid needs help, that's for sure. I'm hoping as part of that help he will come to understand the idea that actions have consequences and that he can't just act like that whenever the rut he wants. Its a complicated situation.

Hardware, I don't think I've ever seen you have a liberal position on a social issue. That doesn't mean you haven't, I just don't ever find any on this forum. But hey, I've been here for only 2 months, maybe they all happened before?

Frem, I like your "genetic loads the gun but environment pulls the trigger" line, I don't believe it is true 100 percent of the time, sometimes genetics does both in my opinion, but I think most of the time you're right, a great phrase, I'll remember that one.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 11, 2011 5:29 AM

Here you go Kwicko, fill this out.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 11, 2011 10:47 AM

Dude, seriously.

And THAT, for the both of ya.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 11, 2011 2:40 PM

MAL4PREZ

Frem, Magon,

I got a very different understanding from the article than the one I interpreted in this thread, especially given the title of the thread. If it were merely a child stamping his foot and demanding a new ice cream cone after he dropped his, and police ran up and pepper sprayed him to shut him up, hells ya that's wrong. That's a tantrum. What this kid had was no tantrum!

This kid was throwing computers and furniture, threatening people with a weapon, and clearly whacked on some brain aggression crazy making chemicals. I don't in any way blame the teachers for calling the police, or the police for the spray. (The handcuffs sound like a bit much, but then I wasn't there.)

Who I blame (and meant to say last night but too into my rant) is the mother (parents?). That child had put out warning signs, and he did not belong in that situation. In that we're in agreement - the boy needs help. The mom needs to pull her head out and realize that this kid can't be leading the normal 8 year old life until he finds a way to channel this "condition" of his.

To be clear though - what I don't like about this thread (maybe it's that title) is how it seems to be blaming the police. They did what they needed to do because idiot let this situation arise (I'm talking to you, mom), and I don't think they over-acted. They did their job, and sounds like they shut this kid kid as gently as possible.

Perhaps I just don't accept that "talking down" was an option here. Or maybe I mistrust teachers and police less than other posters, so I assume that the "talking down" was tried. It certainly sounds like the kid was beyond hearing any reason.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 11, 2011 3:12 PM

KANEMAN

Hardware to Kwicko... "You got some sand in your ASS-PUSSY and seemed to think it was some fantasy I had cooked up over how your days are going to end. The truth is; I don't care about you enough to care how you end up" ...

Fixed...kwicko is .."the gayest gay on the interweb.....Well, it's true....

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 1:09 AM

Oh no, Mal4, tantrum doesn't *begin* to describe it, that was berserkerang - although without the radically increased strength/endurance which starts kicking in around puberty, in THAT case pepper spray would not have stopped him either, and in either case tasering would carry a substantive risk of death due to elevated heart rate.

The only way to properly deal with a gone-berserk is to get the hell OUT OF RANGE, once deprived of targets the blood madness fades into melancholy and depression, and he would have been easy to take into custody at that point - thing is the teachers got stupid and chose a piss-poor escape route, retreating to closet still within close range and with no other exit, and the police thought there was danger of physical harm, besides being impatient, because we have to accept the typical law enforcement attitude about these things, to deny it is ridiculous.
In a different situation I would attribute it to the usual asinine concept of ego-involvement and impatience, but in this case the police really did thing there was immediate danger of physical harm, while I may not agree with their solution - given their training and lack of experience with this sort of thing they went with the only options they could think of.

Plenty of blame to go around, but I don't see the mother as an enabler so much as completely out of her depth, apparently whatever abuse the boy went through was at the hands of someone with enough economic/political clout to more or less get away with it, and having that happen to your family is a blow many parents never really recover from - so likely she has some "issues" going untreated too, which she dares not admit cause it would put her custody in jeopardy, despite the grandparents taking up a lot of the slack.
I know the dynamics all too well, the poor lady is lost, adrift, and sees in her sons rage against society some level of justification, as well as a lot of self-blame for not catching out/preventing the abuse, and probably some passive-aggressive malice of her own towards society over what happened.
That one is a delicate issue, and the lack of proper confidentiality in psychological treatment just makes it all that much harder, you know ?

As for the kid, to be a bit more detailed about it, the root cause of his aggression is very likely to be a cascade failure of social acceptance - not acceptance BY society although that's true in this case as well, but a failure of HIS acceptance of society, which he has rejected and repudiated, prolly cause of what happened before...
Basically he choked on the notion of our social values at some point, no doubt seeing obvious injustice and hypocrisy, started to reject them as unpalatable, and then when the mask came off and "or-else" came into the question, began to regard them as poisonous and oppressive.

Think of this from a slightly different angle to understand his perspective - think of an adult leaving a cult, it starts with questions and doubt, then when the cult starts to get nasty it tends to get adversarial rather quickly, and THAT is the childs mental position right now versus our society and its values, you understand ?

What he needs, most of all right now, is someone who he can place trust or confidence in, to introduce him to the ideals of society beneath the ugly realities and convince him that yes, they DO have value, yes there ARE good reasons, and do it in the face of a social structure that pays little more than lip service to them, as well as treating him as sub-human, and that is *NOT* an easy challenge - you can talk about consequences all you want and not budge him an inch, as he's ALREADY decided or accepted that he's going to face them whether or not he plays by the rules, cause in his experiences that's how it has gone.

Again, this is a situation which utterly requires specialist intervention by someone who knows what the hell they're doing, preferably in a controlled environment, but the family itself is too "involved" in the situation to even realize that because of the catastrophic psychological fallout from the previous incident, the school may or may not realize it but that kind of thing is (properly) outside their jurisdiction, and nor is it the responsibility of the police.

It's OUR responsibility, as a society, as human beings - to realize that need for assistance and offer it, without blame or condition - and our inability to do that is one of the many failings we ourselves, as individuals, can often correct.

Anyhows, my concern in this isn't that the school and police partially fumbled a ball they were never mentally equipped to handle in the first place, so much as what to do about it NOW - and explaining the details of the situation in hopes that should anyone reading this run across a similar problem in the future, they might have enough understanding to have a positive effect on it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 5:55 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hey Frem, a while back I looked up berzerker on wikipedia and found little of import, I wondered if, since you mention the state often enough, you know something about that in a historical context, Vikings etc.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:19 PM

BYTEMITE

It's not really a diagnosable thing as far as I'm aware, but is some sort of hyper-aggressive adrenal complex thing that when triggered is very destructive and hard to shut down. It's when fight or flight becomes screaming rage fight fight FIGHT FIGHT and the person in question doesn't stop until the threat does, no matter how much they're hurt in the process.

Frem will know more about the specifics, but I have some experience with it myself.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Think of this from a slightly different angle to understand his perspective - think of an adult leaving a cult, it starts with questions and doubt, then when the cult starts to get nasty it tends to get adversarial rather quickly, and THAT is the childs mental position right now versus our society and its values, you understand ?

What he needs, most of all right now, is someone who he can place trust or confidence in, to introduce him to the ideals of society beneath the ugly realities and convince him that yes, they DO have value, yes there ARE good reasons, and do it in the face of a social structure that pays little more than lip service to them, as well as treating him as sub-human, and that is *NOT* an easy challenge - you can talk about consequences all you want and not budge him an inch, as he's ALREADY decided or accepted that he's going to face them whether or not he plays by the rules, cause in his experiences that's how it has gone.

...

It's OUR responsibility, as a society, as human beings - to realize that need for assistance and offer it, without blame or condition - and our inability to do that is one of the many failings we ourselves, as individuals, can often correct.

Frem, this entire post made a lot of sense to me.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:44 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I know that Byte, but I've been curious for the last couple of years and there's not much to go on, I guess no one really cares about it, I'm curious about it from a historical standpoint and in regard to how they were the rest of the time etc. Everyone has their own pet theories, from shrooms to behavioral conditioning from an early age etc.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 11:04 PM

Well what do you wanna know - I don't have time for a detailed precis at the moment, but I can reccommend at least one book for you, although it's not exactly the primary topic of it.

Skull Session, by Hecht
http://www.amazon.com/Skull-Session-Daniel-Hecht/dp/0451195922

Damn, I can't remember the name of the band offhand, but I have a CD around here with a heavy-metal ode to them which includes the lyric -
"Chewin on the shield rim, gonna get some hits in.."
Which always makes me laugh, cause in days of yore once they had worked themselves up, the berserks would often chew their shield rims in frustration at not having targets just yet, in order to avoid flaking out on their own.

ETA:

Quote:
This fury, which was called berserkergang, occurred not only in the heat of battle, but also during laborious work. Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its colour. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. When this condition ceased, a great dulling of the mind and feebleness followed, which could last for one or several days

That's kind of accurate, more later.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:56 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I wanted something quick I could look up online, not a book. But thanks anyways, so are you saying that when they aren't in this state they are sort of touched and need looked after, at least for a while afterwords?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 6:08 PM

Basic overview type stuff, tho take with a grain of salt, of course, cause as always there's a lot of personal opinion/philosophy/theology wrapped up around such explainations.

http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml
http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/berserk.htm

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:04 PM