How to win an argument with Liberals-Progressives-Socialists-etc... by Wulfenstar

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

By the way, you never did answer my question: Why is it that you say Obama deserves NONE of the credit for killing Bin Laden?

Bringing this back because it seems like Wulfie doesn't want to answer this one.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, June 7, 2011 7:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
P.S. You pissants don't know anything about anime.

Oh, now *THAT* I take exception to, given that it's one of the few things besides rabble rousing that amuses me.

Fair warning though, what with all the ugliness I've dealt with in life and whatnot, I *do* happen to have a high tolerance for, and actually like, some of the most ridiculously cute stuff.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TastesLikeDiabetes
Anything on that bottom right shelf is so overwhelmingly adorable normal folk should have an airsick bag handy.

Of course, that's not the entirety of it, and I wish they'd get their thumbs out on the R1 release of season three of Black Lagoon.
(a series which you'd actually like, seriously.)

Not to mention I'm damn picky about it, and have no interest in franchise milking shovelware garbage, which leaves many supposedly popular series right on out.

Oh, and an obligator picture of the cat, cause she was there.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, June 7, 2011 7:58 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Magon's: I agree with you that a political category cannot encompass everything a person believes in, there are lots of gray areas and I think that as we get older we see those more, both in ourselves and in the world. Of course I'm not meaning that in a "anything goes" kind of way, I mean it in a having-a-wider-understanding-of-the-merrits-of-being moderate way. I think/hope that's what you meant too.

DMAANilil (your name is hard): This board is a place where extreme individuals seem to congregate. Sure there are those of us in the middle, but people here per capita are more extreme one way or the other than the general American public. If you picked 10 participants here and compared them to ten randomly chosen Americans you would find the randomly chosen folk to not be nearly as argumentative about politics as those here. So the whole of the US isn't as intense as this board.

Byte, yay for swords! I found your car vs. gun monologue entertaining/interesting.

I agree with Happy and DT about Wulf, I think his interest in saving a person in that situation is admirable. I like seeing people express a desire for heroism in the world. I think though that part of why people don't always fancy you Wulf is your presentation of your ideas, the way they come out of you, not necessarily the sentiments behind them.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, June 7, 2011 10:02 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Magon's: I agree with you that a political category cannot encompass everything a person believes in, there are lots of gray areas and I think that as we get older we see those more, both in ourselves and in the world. Of course I'm not meaning that in a "anything goes" kind of way, I mean it in a having-a-wider-understanding-of-the-merrits-of-being moderate way. I think/hope that's what you meant too.

I see myself as a moderate, and generally dislike extremists, but I guess my point was that Wulf sees people in black and white, no shades. It's hard to predict how people will behave based on their political leaning, bravery, integrity, honesty and a whole lot of other virtues cannot be predicted by the political spectrum, not are they characteristic of race or nationality or religion, they defy those sort of categories because they are qualities that belongs to an individual.

Regardless of whether you categorise someone as a hero or not, I think the quality of going to the assistance of other people and or animals who are being abused is a good quality, and I'd like to think that I possess it, not of course, in a gun wielding way either. I'd hate to think of myself or someone close to me being injured and there being people around who didn't intervene to prevent it, and I think on the whole I live somewhere where that wouldn't happen. I can think of many instances where people have stepped in to stop abuse, both in my own experience and through hearing about it in the media. None of those interventions have involved use of firearms, for the record.

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Tuesday, June 7, 2011 11:36 PM

Well then, consider this.

Preventing it, also qualifies as stopping it, for if the abuse never happens in the first place....

Why else do what I do ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 12:45 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Just came across this from another site I visit...

"I'm a native San Franciscan, great great grandson of native San Franciscans and I think the most wonderful city west of New York is going crazy. I came of age in the 60's and was one of the free speech peace and love kids and I have remembered those values. But so many of my contemporaries have gone off into this misguided fascist progressive malarchy about building a better world from the top down, and they are at the top because they are so right because they are so progressively moral - more moral that is, and everyone else had better agree or risk being morally benighted. Oooohh! The world and the city were better places before the high hand of the moral fanatics held such sway. Somebody sneezes don't say "bless you", or you'll get sued or lectured if you're lucky. I still love the city. Its worth the earthquakes to live there. But this (now) old flower child is wondering how it went from do your own thing to do as we think you should. Its the same people, and now they are the fascists we used to denounce, but of course they can't see it."

Thats the kind of hippie-liberal you can have a worthwhile conversation with.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 12:57 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well then, consider this.

Preventing it, also qualifies as stopping it, for if the abuse never happens in the first place....

Why else do what I do ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Totally get that and agree. That is why the heroism part doesn't sit well with me. Plenty of people dedicate their lives to such things and never get the same kudos as someone who stumbles onto a situation and acts and then gets the glory. The world needs both types of action like that.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 12:59 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Just came across this from another site I visit...

"I'm a native San Franciscan, great great grandson of native San Franciscans and I think the most wonderful city west of New York is going crazy. I came of age in the 60's and was one of the free speech peace and love kids and I have remembered those values. But so many of my contemporaries have gone off into this misguided fascist progressive malarchy about building a better world from the top down, and they are at the top because they are so right because they are so progressively moral - more moral that is, and everyone else had better agree or risk being morally benighted. Oooohh! The world and the city were better places before the high hand of the moral fanatics held such sway. Somebody sneezes don't say "bless you", or you'll get sued or lectured if you're lucky. I still love the city. Its worth the earthquakes to live there. But this (now) old flower child is wondering how it went from do your own thing to do as we think you should. Its the same people, and now they are the fascists we used to denounce, but of course they can't see it."

Thats the kind of hippie-liberal you can have a worthwhile conversation with.

How about you try and have a discussion without using the terms 'hippie (sic) liberal socialist fascist' and see if you can get your point across. I think you'll find it will go a long way in freeing up some of the clag in your mind.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 1:54 AM

*THAT'S* who he reminds me of...
A young Archie Bunker, only with even less redeeming qualities.

-F

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 3:56 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"*THAT'S* who he reminds me of...
A young Archie Bunker, only with even less redeeming qualities."

Thats... AWESOME!

lol

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 4:56 AM

Who didn't see that coming? Anyone?

Other teenage girls had posters of shirtless boys with moppy hair. I had posters of swords. I blame all the fantasy novels I used to read.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 5:17 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Considering the amount of shit I usually have to take around here... thats as close to a compliment as I can expect.

So I'll take it.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 5:20 AM

Fair enough.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 5:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
This INTERNET is a place where extreme individuals seem to congregate. Sure there are those of us in the middle, but people here per capita are more extreme one way or the other than the general American public. If you picked 10 participants here and compared them to ten randomly chosen Americans you would find the randomly chosen folk to not be nearly as argumentative about politics as those here. So the whole of the US isn't as intense as this board.

Right on. But it’s not just here, it’s almost the entire internet. It’s a mentality that has come to be, so much so that it's become a joke. There was a line in West Wing that was hilarious, someone trying to be reasonable on the internet and getting shit back, and being told "You need to remember, a lot of those people haven't taken their medication" (paraphrasing).

For example, I’m not aggressive in real life, I’m downright peaceful, and never talk to people the way I write here. The difference is, here I put myself in the path of people who ARE extreme (or seem to be, from the way they write); they get nasty, I respond, they respond, and away we go.

I, too, am all in favor of taking action and helping people and animals, but wasn’t about that. It was about Wulf looking for a rationale for using a 30-clip magazine; he titled the thread something like “When a 30-clip magazine is NEEDED” (paraphrasing). That’s the crux of what he was trying to say, it wasn’t about people having the courage to help those in need, tho’ it morphed into that later in the thread. I can’t believe we’re going all the way back to that discussion, especially as it goes nowhere. What people are saying now is what we all said then, and it has no more impact on him than it did then.

Funny that the title of this looooong thread has turned out to be exactly how one DOES NOT win an argument...with anyone. It’s easier for me to see that Wulf doesn’t make his own arguments when he posts URLs rather than the actual videos. Example:

Someone remarks that they believe the government should be there to help brings this response from Wulf:

“A note on this statement:

VIDEO”

A remark that Wulf seems to equate people wanting the government to provide a safety net to the belief they wouldn’t step up and help: nothing BUT a video.

Wulf, if you can’t say it in your own words, most people here won’t even bother to hear you because we’re not going to take the time to watch your videos. The choice is to either take the time to write your own points, which people will take the time to read, or recognize that by putting up just videos, people won’t take the time to watch them and you end up having nothing to say. It also has no MEANING, like your post:

“VIDEO

This cracks me up, especially evertyime I read someone here going on and on and on and on about the environment....”

It doesn’t MEAN anything, do you get what I’m saying? It’s literally NOT the way to win any argument, because utilizing videos to such a large extent means your points really don’t exist. I guess if you just want to snark or you get a kick out of videos, it’s what you should do. But if you actually want to communicate, or “win” an argument, you’d be better off to SAY things than put up videos.

Quote:
I think though that part of why people don't always fancy you Wulf is your presentation of your ideas, the way they come out of you, not necessarily the sentiments behind them.

How about you try and have a discussion without using the terms 'hippie (sic) liberal socialist fascist'

Sadly, Magons, that’s kind of like asking PN to stop using “Jew” in everything, not to mention all the other terms he loves so much. I wish Wulf would, because it makes him impossible to communicate with, and that’s frustrating and does not contribute to any discussion.

Gawd, Frem, you’re right. A young Archie Bunker. That is SO right on. With the exception that Archie Bunker wasn’t SUPPOSED to be taken seriously, he was deliberately overblown so as to be a caricature of a certain mentality. It’s sad that Wulf seems unable to see that, because, unlike Archie, he’s SERIOUS about what he says. I think. Unless he’s just here to get people’s goat, but I don’t think he is. That’s more how Raptor seems.

Wulf, the “amount of shit” you take is equivalent to the amount of shit you give OTHERS. If you could let up a bit on that, and listen to what people have been saying to you in this thread, you’d have a much better time here and people would treat you with respect. Tho’ I guess if you LIKE being compared to Archie Bunker, that puts you so far outside the bounds of REAL people, you really don’t want to be taken seriously. Nonetheless, you can complain about taking shit, but it’s not a valid complaint; you give at least as good as, and often worse, than you get. It’s your own choice.

p.s. However, thanx for pulling me up short, Happy, I really appreciate people deciding as you have, it reminds me of my own intentions. I’ve fallen back into responding in kind, and will once again try to avoid being triggered into that. It’s tough to keep remembering, dammit, and so much easier to let fly! But I’ll start from scratch once again. I TRIED to write this post as humanely as possible and leave out any attacks, but I’m sure it won’t be seen that way, especially as it’s all advice others have given Wulf and in a way a PLEA to him to become more a relevant member of the forum, all of which have been done before to no avail.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 6:43 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Nicki, you are missing a few things here.

So let me be clear.

I don't hate some flower-freak, hippie that just wants to live their life and not bother anyone. Some patchuli mess, that just wants to grow their garden and make glass sculptures.

These folks usually want, and MEAN, live-and-let-live.

Them and I have no quarrel.

I have business with the militant, socialist, "change" crowd.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 8:48 AM

I call bullshit.

And furthermore...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActivistFundamentalistAntic
s

Quote:
Some psychologists have argued that the reason why some cultists are behaving like that is that they are desperately trying to convince themselves of the righteousness of their cause.

Not that it works when reality intrudes on your little bubble, but consider well that I'd have nothing to say to you if you and yours *didn't* have the intention (whether or not you have the balls to admit it) of destroying all that is not like you - one way, or another.

And that in and of itself is indicative of a completely failed worldview, the idea that if there is any alternative at all, that if an alternative even exists, your worldview will not be accepted - a wholesale admission of it's failure.

Not only that, but worse, that you'd wanna drag all existence down to hell with you rather than accept that failure.

And thus a Jackboot is born.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 10:16 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Aww, Frem... poor thing.

Dude, I understand your pain. I really do. Anarchy, and the resulting... well... anarchy.. doesn't work.

Its the pipe dream of spoiled rich kids in their parents basement.

Oh yes. You've dealt with the products of a failed system. What you can't see is that the failed system is the one you support.

Yes, the children you've helped (and don't ever think that I don't see a pederast intention in your "help") are the failings of a society that has bought into the idea that a single parent household is best.

So, we have single parent families, living on welfare, while the rest of society is burdened with carrying them. Introduce drugs.

Ok for some, outlawed for others. The drug trade is born.

But, you also have gun-control... stop the killing. Then you CAN'T protect yourself/others without the governments permission.

And then PC... want to speak out against this bullshit? Can't. Not ok.

Want your kids to go to a school that will actually teach them? Nope. No vouchers. And forget about homeschooling. Even if you could find the time working two jobs... too weird.

One day, if things go right... the future generations will look at these times and be like... WTF?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 10:39 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Oh and this.

I love the slant.

Let me break this down for those who refuse to watch it.

"Blacks should not be allowed to have guns. But since we can't say that... we should outlaw all guns."

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 10:55 AM

This thread just took a turn.

Frem wasn't right saying that to you, but calling him a pedophile is nasty business. You also try to make an argument about introducing the drug trade requiring both no government but somehow some drugs "outlawed" and you can't seriously tell me you think Frem is pro-gun-control, anti-homeschooling, anti-speech, or any of your other completely random accusations. Nowhere in that word salad do you explain just how Frem is responsible for single parent households, which boils down to what you believe is the cause of all society's ills.

Also, if you're really a Libertarian, look up the synonyms sometime. You'll find Anarchist among them.

You are lashing out indiscriminantly and you just pulled me in. Do you mean to burn every bridge you have on this board? I may have to wonder what spurred this on, I don't recall having seen you for a while, and now this.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 11:01 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

I wanted to return to this:

Quote:
The thing you are missing when you deride me for equating all of the leftist isms into one massive clusterfuck of wrong thinking, is this; all of them have one flawed premise at their core. That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.

This is wrong. Or at least, you missed one major 'ism' out - conservatism. You're not an anarchist are you HW? You believe in a government of some size and scope? Then you believe in a system of taxes - taking money off citizens at the point of a gun, and spending their money on services for them, whether they want those services or not. Right? That's what governments do, tax and serve. A good example is your belief (I assume) in a decent-sized, well-funded military, to serve the country by defending it against external threats. But some citizens, pacifists or whatever, don't want a decent-sized military to protect them, and you might never be able to talk them around. But you still believe in taking money off them in taxes, to provide them with that service anyway?

You believe in a system of government HW, indeed, it would be unthinkable to you that your country should try to function without one - therefore government is at the core of your political philiosophy. Therefore you believe in taxing people and that, as you say "someone else is better suited to decide what is best for them". You probably believe in it grudgingly, and call it a 'necessary evil' or somesuch. But you subscribe to it; and believe in it at the core of your political worldview.

So is your criticism of liberals that they believe the same as you, only not as grudgingly? Please explain.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 11:10 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

For people like Frem their "help" always has a price. Thats been my experience. Hey, maybe Frem is just a nice guy who never gets his kicks off the kids he helps. I could be wrong and am being all... irrational.

Also, I never said that he/she was anti-gun, anti-homeschooling.

Just that the modern day "liberals" were.

"No where in that word salad do you explain just how Frem is responsible for single parent households, which boils down to what you believe is the cause of all society's ills."

Is he/she responsible for all ills? No.

But a philosphy that encourages gun control, single parent households, spreading wealth, welfare, PC, and all of the other garbage.... IS.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 11:13 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

P.S. Hardware speaks as I wish I could speak.

I just don't have the patience or the kindness.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 11:22 AM

...It's kinda sad that you don't trust that anyone can do something decent for someone, just to be decent. I'm sorry, Wulf.

Quote:
But a philosphy that encourages gun control, single parent households, spreading wealth, welfare, PC, and all of the other garbage.... IS.

I still don't see how that ties into any system Frem supports, but okay. I can see how you could come to the conclusion that single parent households are a potential cause of messed up upbringing. In the very least, you have a reduced income to support the family, and you have split attention between work and childcare. I can't tell if this is a chicken or egg thing, or whether income alleviates this or not, but setting that aside.

So what causes single parent households? Can be part culture, I'll admit, and teenagers being foolish, though I also think poverty may play a role.

Right now your argument looks like: liberalism ... single parent households, messed up generations, ineffective schools, increased crime, gun control, reduced speech, nanny state. I need the ellipses filled in for me. Is it secularism, feminism, both?

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
For people like Frem their "help" always has a price. Thats been my experience. Hey, maybe Frem is just a nice guy who never gets his kicks off the kids he helps. I could be wrong and am being all... irrational.

Also, I never said that he/she was anti-gun, anti-homeschooling.

Just that the modern day "liberals" were.

Really? I'd wager I've got more guns than you do, Wulfie.

Homeschooling? Depends on how effectively it's done.

Quote:

"No where in that word salad do you explain just how Frem is responsible for single parent households, which boils down to what you believe is the cause of all society's ills."

Is he/she responsible for all ills? No.

But a philosphy that encourages gun control, single parent households, spreading wealth, welfare, PC, and all of the other garbage.... IS.

Not sure what "philosophy" you're thinking of, but I've never heard anyone ENCOURAGE single-parent households. Wait, that's not true - I *have* heard one group promote such a thing: Conservatives. How else do you explain what would happen if you got your dreams of outlawing all abortion, banning sex education, and insisting on abstinence-only education?

Or are you proposing a law that says that a man MUST marry any woman whom he impregnates?

'Cause if not, YOU are the ones promoting single-parent households.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 1:49 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Wulf.
I agree that your assertion that Frem hurt the kids he helped is inapropriate and below the belt and just groty to say since you have no evidence of this idea. I think what has happened to you is that you're frustrated and feeling outnumbered, ... or something ... and so you are resorting to personal attacks that you have no evidence of because you feel like you're in a corner and so you're lashing out like a cornered animal of some kind. I don't think that's a very mature way to handle those feelings. Have I done it beofore? (the lashing out and being plain old mean, not the accusational part), yes I have, and I found it woefully ineffective and felt stupid afterwords.
So can we leave grotiness of that ilk out of this?

And for the record I've never seen Frem advocate gun control.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 3:25 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
P.S. Hardware speaks as I wish I could speak.

I just don't have the patience or the kindness.

Or the ability.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 3:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
P.S. Hardware speaks as I wish I could speak.

I just don't have the patience or the kindness.

Or the ability.

Or the talent. Or the smarts.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 5:37 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Homeschooling, what a great idea. We can take more chances (and liberties) with our children's education while delaying their social development. Everybody wins!

I realize this can work out differently under the right circumstances with intelligent and dedicated enough parents, but in general I think it is a bad idea, even more so then public school. Remember, while you are training your children your children are also training you, they're crafty and perceptive like that. There is a real benefit to having multiple instructors and peers for them to develop socially along side.

As to the Wulf thing, they aren't exactly letting up. They do seem to be intentially baiting and provoking the desired nasty responses. I don't see this pattern ending any time soon. I don't think any of them want to hear an intelligent, polite, or insightful comment from Wulf. Doesn't make either side right and IMO doesn't even make it less wrong. Just pointless really, unless you enjoy the vitriol.

((don't remember who I clicked reply to or why, but this is a general comment, not aimed at one person))

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 6:13 PM

Meh, he's just having a tantrum cause someone called his worldview into question, as stated, evidencing a lack of maturity and good sense, as usual.
(Yes I'm mean as hell to him, and I have my reasons, let's leave it there.)

As for the folk I help, one of the *first* things I encourage them to DO once they reach the "i'm gonna be allright" point is to GO THE HELL AWAY - while his dimwitted assertions are meaningless, I know damn well imma terrible role model, and getting sucked into the biz of fighting some of the fights, and in the manner I do, is not good for anyones mental health whatever, thus to encourage that seperation yeah, I can be kind of mean, sure - but he's just being an ass, all that is.

And Gun Control ? HA! - yer talkin to someone who feels that *ANYTHING* man-portable should be legal without question, period.
The ONLY concession I'd ever make is requiring proof of competence as a condition of sale, and by NO means would I ever want THAT decision in Government hands, oh hell no.

But let him rant, just shows what lies beneath the facade he's tryin to sell.

-Frem

PS. Oh I wouldn't MIND, Happy, and on a rare occasion you'll get one, but only after his little bumrush of bullshit gets trampled and he has to think for himself - which I really wish the hell he'd DO on a more frequent basis!

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 6:39 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Wulf

"The world and the city were better places before the high hand of the moral fanatics held such sway."

Moral fanatics like you perhaps who have the only truth of individualism, aggression and, oh yes,guns? Or do you refer to the American Family Association and its chief spokesman Bryan Fischer who repeatedly demands that the US deport all Muslims?

I could go on, but rather than be tedious I HOPE you understand from these examples that there are many, MANY intolerant, self-righteous, closed-minded fanatics - of all ideologies.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 6:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But a philosphy that encourages gun control, single parent households, spreading wealth, welfare, PC, and all of the other garbage.... IS.

Well, I have no idea what single philosophy that would be. Even the dreaded librulizm doesn't do that.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 6:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hardware speaks as I wish I could speak. I just don't have the patience or the kindness.- Wulf
Or the ability- Story
Or the talent. Or the smarts.-Kwicko

Gotta say, guys, even Hardware doesn't have ability, talent or smarts.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 7:56 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'm with ya on home schooling Happy, I'm opposed to it most of the time. If you live in the arctic wilderness and there isn't a school around then sure. But otherwise uh uh. I do however think that home school co-ops are okay, where a group of parents form a collective and all teach and the kids are interacting with each other etc. That is okay with me and I consider it different than home schooling.

But I wouldn't make home schooling illegal, I just don't approve of it. Legally it should probably be allowed as long as the kids are meeting benchmarks for their age group.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 1:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hardware speaks as I wish I could speak. I just don't have the patience or the kindness.- Wulf
Or the ability- Story
Or the talent. Or the smarts.-Kwicko

Gotta say, guys, even Hardware doesn't have ability, talent or smarts.

Well true, but when compared to Wulfie, he's a Rhodes scholar.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 1:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Homeschooling, what a great idea. We can take more chances (and liberties) with our children's education while delaying their social development. Everybody wins!

I realize this can work out differently under the right circumstances with intelligent and dedicated enough parents, but in general I think it is a bad idea, even more so then public school. Remember, while you are training your children your children are also training you, they're crafty and perceptive like that. There is a real benefit to having multiple instructors and peers for them to develop socially along side.

((don't remember who I clicked reply to or why, but this is a general comment, not aimed at one person))

1) You clicked to reply to me, apparently, because I got a notification. :)

2) I don't take it personally. :)

3) Pretty much with ya on homeschooling. I don't have a HUGE problem with it, as I've said, but I have concerns. 'Course, I have concerns with public education, too, but tend to view just about ANY education as preferable to NO education.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 4:11 AM

Homeschooling. Not opposed to it, somewhat neutral so to speak. I can see the points for both sides.

The main thing about homeschooling is that the biggest group that wants it are the religious fundamentalists. There's nothing too wrong with that, though we'll have to walk a tightrope of individual rights versus rights to practice religion. Definitely ritualistic murder shouldn't be tolerated, and backwards punishments of rape victims. But I also think we have to support some degree of diversity and culture so humanity isn't some homogenous soulless thing, everyone the same.

I figure that most of the kids who are coming from a background like that aren't going to accept science anyway or become scientists, so it's not like we damage human prospects for revolutionary new theories or technology by people believing any of this stuff.

I do have some qualms about parents overriding their own children's will in terms of beliefs and life choices, and I also find those parents who want to live vicariously through their children pretty offensive, so I consider those pitfalls as well.

There's also questions of convenience: in this fast paced world with ever increasing inflation, it can be hard for even one of the parents to stay home for the schooling. And there's some children with needs that might overwhelm the parents.

But on the plus side of the equation, homeschooling is probably less stressful, what's more, it's been done for a LONG time before now. I hesitate to say it might be more natural, because that's usually shakey grounds for an argument, but I also think it's probably not an unreasonable conclusion.

Public schools have a lot of downsides, with very few upsides, at least how they're organized right now. Really they're best for the aforementioned kids of busy parents and kids with needs.

Kids are going to make friends and socialize wherever, they don't need to go to a building for that. So I question that assertion, especially since schools also trap kids with kids and sometimes adults who are decidedly not their friends. The big kids on campus become psychopaths, and the bullied kids, well, Frem's article on violence geeks is probably apt.

Schools are also geared towards breaking down free will, but they do it as a matter of course, so the kids will "function" in society. But maybe the problem isn't the kids, maybe the problem is a society that needs a bunch of cubicle dwellers at desks. School also trains kids to submit to authority and not to question, it creates a culture of victimhood and lack of self-determination.

I appreciate what teachers are trying to do, and I don't think any of this is particularly their fault (unless they happen to be abusive teachers, then they're contributing to the problem). But there are some major problems with the schooling system that I think we can all agree with, and that's not even getting into the latest trends where we have security guards and police patrols and certain schools become more like a prison.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 4:34 AM

Sorry to just put my 2 cents in here but, I knew several children who were home-schooled.

One of them was raised by extreemly religious people and did have real difficulty in making friends.

The others were home-schooled by their parents because they wanted to make sure their children got a good education. They were really nice people, and their kids were really intelligent.

I guess its just a matter of who is teaching what and how.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 4:42 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Byte, children may have the ability to make friends, but that won't mean much if they are not given the opportunity. (Also the ability is not flawlessly innate, it does have to be practiced and acquired). Granted my experience is primarily children within the Autistic spectrum, but I have observed a HUGE difference between the children who go the school and those who stay at home. The children who go to school are far more vocal and responsive and not because they are receiving quality special education in the schools. I go there in the mornings and they are too overwhelmed, often resorting to group teaching that most of the children are unable to follow. It's being with their peers. In a school (or even a day care arguably) they are with their age group. In theory this can be accomplished in homeschooling as well, but I haven't seen it yet.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 4:47 AM

Back in the old days, kids just used to make friends in their neighborhoods, or go to parks, or maybe even they'd join a group like the cub scouts (though I'm leery of that organization's religious connections). It's really not as tricky as people make it out to be. There are other kids everywhere.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 4:54 AM

STORYMARK

Socials skills, like any other skill, are learned. Throwing them out in the neighborhood and saying "go learn to interact, with all these kids who've been doing it far, far more. Good luck. Bye." doesn't tend to yield ideal results. The notion that homeschooled kids have social issues didn't just spring up from nowhere.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 5:33 AM

HARDWARE

KPO,
Sorry, I missed your question in the noise. I'm something of a rational anarchist. If you have read the novel Freehold by Michael Z. Williamson, that would come closes to my ideal government. Laws should be prohibitions on certain types of behavior. Murder, rape, assault, simply put an act of two parties to which one party has not consented. Not the same as an act of two parties by consent which one party changes their mind in the middle of. There should also be laws against abuse of office, with extremely stiff penalties. Penalties like death.

Governments should be formed for the purpose of undertaking projects the citizens themselves cannot perform. Sewage can be handled by a corporation. Water supply can likewise be handled by a corporate entity. (in fact, it is where I live) Power supply, corporations. Phone or network connectivity, again corporations. EMS in my area is handled by a volunteer fire company. They take donations or they charge you for an ambulance ride. Some fire companies also have subscription plans or charge for call outs. Sounds horrible? I don't know. It is my choice to pay ahead of time or pay for the services I use. So, really, what does my tax dollar buy? Schooling? I don't use it. Surface streets? I'm okay with that, although I wish we had more sidewalks and a livable neighborhood that didn't require you to own a car.
Public safety? A misnomer. Even if I am attacked all that happens if a police officer will come around to get a description of my attacker and file it. No investigation, no pursuit unless the attacker is still present. Basically the only crime that gets investigated by police any more is murder.

So why do I need a government? Seriously? I have a large tax burden for which I receive next to nothing in return. Doesn't really sound fair.

My question back to you is this; what services do you receive from the Feral Government (no typo) that you could just not live without?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 6:09 AM

HardWare, I guess my answer would be the military? Maybe the mail?

I like the idea of most services being run by local people and companies. If your trash doesnt get picked up on time, you can change companies. Same goes for the condition of roads, and the school system.

Even the police can be outsourced and run by local people.

Medicare and Medicaid are a problem. But maybe companies could be given insentives to offer 401k Matched Asset Plans to all their employees?

Then you have the problem of small business not having the capitol to offer those benefits.

Is there a way around that?

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 6:30 AM

Storymark, I think that might be relative, though. As I think Skydivelife noted, they've seen both homeschool kids who had socialization issues, and ones who didn't. It really depends on who's doing the teaching at home and what the kids get up to in their free time.

Furthermore, it's not like I'm saying drop one completely. Even the ye olde days I'm trying to compare to, you had homeschooled versus kids who maybe went to a single room classroom provided by the community, who paid to hire a teacher.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 7:58 AM

Take the Third Option.

Sudbury-Model or Free-School - something I support wholeheartedly and intensely, we have a couple of these (several more than Wiki lists) in Ann Arbor, including a High School, and get this - they have a WAITING LIST, despite tuition there being slightly more than average.

And yes, I've subsidized a few of the students, one might almost call that an Anarchist Scholarship Program, but I see it as a good investment since I've found these schools to be educationally superior as well as not so morally and socially reprehensible as public schools.

S'funny, Hardware, I know Mikey-Z, and while Freehold is prolly his best work, not too impressed with the rest of his stuff, especially Better to beg forgiveness (He's got *issues* racially-socially, but not without some cause) which turned my stomach, although I pointedly did *not* offer a bad review of it cause him and his family gotta make a buck somehow.
From the other end, you might try Le Guins The Dispossessed as an interesting counterpart to Freehold.

And also, yes, there ARE things worth collectively bargaining for even without Government, that would even with Anarchists mostly function the same way, as noted, public utilities, sewage, trash collection...
Only those societies would be less inclined to allow exploitive sponsored monopolies as is the current state of affairs.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 8:13 AM

Correction: Skydivelife.

Hi! Are you new?

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 8:24 AM

Hi Bytemite, yeah I'm new. I've been reading here for a little bit. Just wanted to make a statement about being home schooled and the rest.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 8:27 AM

Well, don't let us scare you off. :) We do have some fun sometimes, and even with some of the volatile infighting, we often have some excellent commentary on real world events and issues. Welcome to the board.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 8:29 AM