REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

An example of "fiscally-responsible, small-government" Republican actions

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 16:58
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Sunday, June 5, 2011 8:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I mentioned Florida Governor Rick Scott’s new law which requires anyone applying for temporary assistance to undergo drug testing, as an example of the right-wing TALKING about fiscal conservatism and small government while doing the opposite. Turs out there’s more to it than that. First, possibly his stance might have more to do with something other than wanting to keep druggies from getting welfare:
Quote:

Controversy over the measure was heightened by Scott's past association with a company he co-founded that operates walk-in urgent care clinics in Florida and counts drug screening among the services it provides. In April, Scott transferred his ownership interest in Solantic Corp. to a trust in his wife's name.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/05/florida.welfare.drug.testing/in
dex.html?hpt=hp_t2


I’m not saying there IS a connection, and it probably means nothing, just that it’s amusing to me.

Far more seriously, I discovered that it’s not only this, but Scott has pushed through a measure to do random drug testing on public employees:
Quote:

On the measure requiring public employees to undergo drug testing, Simon noted that public employees -- workers in city, county, state and federal government -- are protected by the Constitution and should not undergo "intrusive" drug testing without probable cause to believe a person is using drugs.
Same

Mind you, in both cases, this is blood and urine testing without any cause to believe those being tested use drugs.

Both represent cost to taxpayers and intrusion by government in people’s private lives. The vast majority of those applying for temporary assistance will show no drugs, which means the state has to compensate them for the cost of the test. The testing of public employees will be paid for entirely by the state. Neither law will stand up in court, and both are being litigated currently. MORE taxpayer money going for what will inevitably be a losing proposition, if the Constitution is upheld. Of course, Scott isn’t giving in that easily:
Quote:

...he'll take the lawsuit to the Supreme Court if that's what it takes to implement a common sense policy that is appropriate and fair to taxpayers," Scott spokeswoman Amy Graham said in an e-mail.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/aclu-sues-scott-over-state-emp
loyee-drug-test-1512966.html


So he’ll take it as far as the Supreme Court, where if they go by the Constitution, it will fail, as such laws have before. It’s definitely not a “common sense policy”, nor is it "appropriate and fair" to taxpayers; those applying for TEMPORARY assistance wouldn’t be costing the state as much as reimbursing all those whose drug tests come up clean would. Not only that, but it wouldn’t do what he thinks it would:
Quote:

Those who fail the required drug testing may designate another individual to receive the benefits on behalf of their children, and do not receive a refund for the test.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/05/florida.welfare.drug.testing/in
dex.html?hpt=hp_t2


The measure makes Florida the only state to test all recipients of the federal program. A version of this law was truck down in Michigan in 2003. The “Temporary Assistance to Needy Families” is a program which provides a maximum $300 a month cash assistance to needy families, with a 48-month lifetime cap on benefits. Track that against the cost of reimbursing drug tests to the vast majority of assistance recipients.

Regarding this issue,
Quote:

Other states have studied the issue and decided testing all recipients was not cost effective. Most states have drug assessment programs that do not include urine or blood tests. Some require drug tests from recipients who have been convicted of felony drug crimes.

During debate about the law, critics pointed to a pilot testing program in Florida that was shut down in 2001 after it showed no significant difference in drug use between welfare recipients and the population at large.

"The wasteful program created by this law subjects Floridians who are impacted by the economic downturn, as well as their families, to a humiliating search of their urine and body fluids without cause or even suspicion of drug abuse," said Howard Simon, executive director of ACLU Florida, in a statement.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/31/us-florida-welfare-drugs-idU
STRE74U6W320110531


In other words, Scott is determined to fight for a law which no other state thinks is cost effective, which has been struck down elsewhere as unconstitutional, the pilot program of which was shut down in Florida itself in 2001 because it showed no significant difference in drug use between welfare recipients and the population at large. So can any of our “small government, faiscal responsibility” righties defend these laws? They are directly in opposition to the idea of small government AND fiscal responsibility. Yet Scott is more than willing to spend taxpayer money to defend both of them all the way to the Supreme Court, where it will lose.

This is an issue which illustrates exactly the difference between what the Republican Party SAYS it stands for and what it’s actions show are the exact opposite. Anyone care to debate this issue? For me, it’s important, in that it refutes the idea Republicans actually stand for what they say they do, which is what often gets them elected to office.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:40 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Anyone care to debate this issue?


*crickets*

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, sigh, I noticed that, and really don't expect any of them to chime in. They'll just ignore it and go on claiming they're for fiscal responsibility and small government. It just amazes me that the American people BUY IT, over and over, despite their very clear ACTIONS to the contrary. Oh, well...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:31 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Keep going, Niki - take it further down the rabbit hole.

If the law requires EVERYONE receiving benefits to undergo the testing, then shouldn't they test every single employee of any hospital, clinic, etc., which receives any kind of Medicare or Medicaid payments from the government?

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:36 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Just add this one to the long list of intrusive, over-reaching big-government "conservative" measures that are sweeping the red states this year. Lots and lots of laws about abortion, unions, drug testing, and the like, but not a single jobs bill.

Should I pretend to be surprised?

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You forgot birth control pills:
Quote:

Petitions to amend the Florida Constitution over the possible banning of birth control and abortions have been the center of debate in Tallahassee this month.

The group behind the amendment, Personhood Florida, is a Christian-based movement run by volunteers.

The group has the support of the American Life League, a Catholic anti-abortion organization based in Virginia that has filed amendments like this in more than a dozen other states.

Pat McEwen, the co-sponsor of the proposed legislation and leader of the group, called the amendment pro-life.

"Florida's constitution gives rights to persons, but it doesn't say who a person is," McEwen said. "We like to say [the amendment] is pro-life. It gives rights to all sorts of people."
According to McEwen, the group wants to be able to have the amendment placed on the ballot in 2010.

According to the amendment, the words "person" and "natural person" apply to all human beings, irrespective of age, race, health, function, condition of physical and/or mental dependency and/or disability, or method of reproduction, from the beginning of the biological development of that human being.

It is the wording of the amendment that has critics opposing not only its legality, but its intentions as well.

The problem lies with the line "the beginning of biological development," which McEwen defines as the moment the sperm and the egg meet.

It could lead to the banning of most forms of female contraception, specifically birth control.

Adrienne Kimmell, the executive director of the Florida Association of Planned Parenthood Affiliates, said she opposes the Personhood movement. She said that it restricts access to reproductive healthcare and would send women's health backward.

"This is something that is being pushed by an extremist, fringe group nationally," Kimmell said. "We've seen these attempts and we know that they [American Life League and Personhood USA] failed."

They have tried in Oregon, Montana and Georgia and failed to get it on the ballot. In Colorado, they were defeated in a 3-1 margin, when it was on the ballot."

According to Erin Kettles, the director of marketing for UCF Health Services, the pharmacy fills out approximately 1,500 birth control prescriptions per month and the women's clinic writes nearly 1,300 prescriptions for birth control per month.

Kimmel said that 98 percent of women use birth control at some point in their lives and nearly 1.7 million women are in need of birth control as it is a part of women's health.

Ashley Lee, a senior women's studies major, decided to research the topic further after hearing about it on campus.

Lee, who is also a member of the UCF chapter for the National Organization for Women, believes that if passed, the amendment would change women's lives as we know it.

"I definitely think it is an absurd proposal because it is dangerous to women and to people as a governed body," Lee said. "Everyone has their own beliefs and it just seems that certain groups of people want to impose [their beliefs] on others or at least work really hard to impose it on others."

"I think that Floridians are going to see this for what it is: an attempt by an extremist group to come in and amend our Constitution and by the government to intervene in our lives," Kimmell said.

Even if the amendment were written into the state constitution, it would be in direct violation of Roe v. Wade, a 1973 Supreme Court decision that held the U.S. Constitution gave women the right to have an abortion.

Moreover, a subsequent ban on birth control would go against Griswold v. Connecticut, which stated that the use of birth control was protected under the Constitution's right to privacy.

http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/birth-control-ban-a-possibility-1.
1937489


Florida, again. Just think of all the taxpayer money that might go into defending THAT one!

Yeah, where ARE those jobs? Or, not even the jobs; where are the bills/laws/etc. to TRY and create jobs? I sure haven't seen 'em.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to the testing thing, I believe it only applies to GOVERNMENT employees, not people receiving benefits from Medicare, etc. The testing of people applying for the Temporary Assistance program is only for those applying specifically to that program.

Which doesn't make ANY of it any less assinine. And I'm still waiting for someone to either defend this, or explain how all this is "fiscally responsible" and/or "small government". I'm not holding my breath...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, June 5, 2011 1:38 PM

HARDWARE


How about this? No aid, no testing. Sounds like a surefire way to reduce the size of government.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 2:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:
How about this? No aid, no testing. Sounds like a surefire way to reduce the size of government.




Sounds like a great way to reduce the size of the military, too. No testing, no paycheck. For contractors, no testing, no contract. Same for every employee of every military supplier, manufacturer, etc. Test 'em all. Hey, it's MY tax dollars they're being paid with, right? Why should I pay for their bad habits?

Let's expand it to include alcohol and tobacco, too, shall we?

[/sarcasm]

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 3:33 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I think he was saying "do away with both", yes? Not "if you don't get tested, you don't get ____" You probably got that and I'm misunderstanding your post...

I thought of responding to this, but it seemed such a waste of effort, I didn't. Came back and what the hell, I've posted so I'll address it. The idea some of you so love about not helping anyone, whatever their circumstance, is nothing but a reflection of a false mentality: that we're all created with equal chances and everyone can stand on his own two feet all the time. Exactly like "deport all illegal aliens", this makes no sense. Calamity can befall ANYONE, even those born (apparently) into enough comfort to actually believe that horseshit. Take your placard to the Midwest and see how all the tornado survivors feel about "no aid".


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, June 5, 2011 3:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I think he was saying "do away with both", yes? Not "if you don't get tested, you don't get ____" You probably got that and I'm misunderstanding your post...



Oh, I got it. I was just playing his game. His suggestion seems to be, "get rid of both, or take whatever conditions are imposed on you for the government's largesse." I'm taking that position to the next level.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:13 PM

HARDWARE


I actually meant do away with both mandatory drug testing and public aid. One is an artifact of the war on some drugs. The other is a leftover from FDR's time. Sure the economy has recovered well enough in the 80+ years that we can drop those programs, right?

After all, there's no place in the Constitution granting the government the power to provide for the indigent.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:26 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I see. So anyone in need of assistance is "indigent", and because there isn't anything specifically in the Constitution about assisting the needy, it has no right to be. Just as all the other things not specified in the Constitution should not exist in America. Gotcha.

Needless to say, I disagree on both fronts. Rather than repeat myself, I will refer you to my last post.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA



What's becoming more and more clear is that all these anti-choice efforts are in fact a thin fiction behind which those responsible intend to roll back the clock and deprive women of ALL civil rights, once again placing them in the same category we unfortunately place folk who haven't reached "the magic number" - I mean, listen to these assholes, and they sound JUST like racists who don't wanna admit that's the core of their agenda, to them womens sufferage and the right to vote are an affront, to be rectified just as soon as they can put them in their place regarding their function as sex objects and baby makers.

And yeah, verily, I think male-folk NEED to stand up and shout out on this one, because *I* consider it an affront to humanity that these dickheads are even allowed to gain so much as a single inch, cause if you think it through to the very fuckin END....

They'd have us all living in the caves again, wouldn't they ?

Fuck that.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, June 6, 2011 1:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:

After all, there's no place in the Constitution granting the government the power to provide for the indigent.



"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It's all in how you read and interpret the words, isn't it?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, June 6, 2011 1:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

What's becoming more and more clear is that all these anti-choice efforts are in fact a thin fiction behind which those responsible intend to roll back the clock and deprive women of ALL civil rights, once again placing them in the same category we unfortunately place folk who haven't reached "the magic number" - I mean, listen to these assholes, and they sound JUST like racists who don't wanna admit that's the core of their agenda, to them womens sufferage and the right to vote are an affront, to be rectified just as soon as they can put them in their place regarding their function as sex objects and baby makers.

And yeah, verily, I think male-folk NEED to stand up and shout out on this one, because *I* consider it an affront to humanity that these dickheads are even allowed to gain so much as a single inch, cause if you think it through to the very fuckin END....

They'd have us all living in the caves again, wouldn't they ?

Fuck that.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.




They ARE the American Taliban.

"They hate us for our freedoms!"

Truer words have never been spoken. That is exactly what "conservative" Christo-fascists hate about America, and why they're determined to destroy it and remake it into a Christian theocracy.

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Monday, June 6, 2011 2:26 AM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:

After all, there's no place in the Constitution granting the government the power to provide for the indigent.



"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It's all in how you read and interpret the words, isn't it?




So, my general welfare, in not having to pay higher taxes has to take a back seat to people who won't earn for themselves? I have zero problem providing for folks who are disabled through no fault of their own. People who contract a disabling illness like MS. Or those that are born with physical ailments or mental retardation. But when disability is being granted for morbid obesity? I think that goes too far.

You know once upon a time, when a man got a girl in a family way they had an institution called a shotgun wedding. The man was going to stand up and do the right thing by that woman or her family was going to make sure he wasn't going to go on and do it with some other girl. This charming little cultural curiosity came about because the financial burden of providing for that child would have then fallen on her family. Now, thanks to welfare, the financial burden fall on the taxpayers! Let's have lots and lots of kids who never know who their father is! That'll be great! And if the mother has the desire to have more than a minimum income, minimum life, that child will have no adult supervision while mom is trying to make a better life!!! Awesome!

Now who the fuck thought that was a good idea?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, June 6, 2011 5:05 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:

After all, there's no place in the Constitution granting the government the power to provide for the indigent.



"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It's all in how you read and interpret the words, isn't it?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



Love ya, agree with ya, but I will point out, as a History prof once did to a lecture hall full of us, that the Preamble is not actually part of the Constitution-- it is an introductory document stating generalized unenforceable principles. The Constitution, he went on, is a very specific list of powers and prohibitions, with very strict rules, proceedures, and numbers -- ages, numbers of votes, time periods, etc.

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Monday, June 6, 2011 7:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, you just amply illustrated your mentality, little more needs to be said.
Quote:

So, my general welfare, in not having to pay higher taxes has to take a back seat to people who won't earn for themselves?
That little fallacy has been around for so long, and used by so many like you, that its stupidity has long outlived its usefulness. In other words, unless one is born with a disability or injured beyond the ability to work, they don’t deserve any help. Like I said; take that placard out to the folks hit by the tornadoes, or the floods, and see how well you get along. This discussion has been about TEMPORARY ASSISTANCE which doesn’t last more than two years and only pays $300 a month; your argument has no validity in this case. It has nothing to do with disability, obesity or anything else, your response is just the usual knee-jerk reaction to helping ANYONE, ANY TIME, for ANY REASON.

Shotgun weddings, eh? That’s your answer? That puts you square in the category Frem described. How many of those women spent the rest of their lives stuck in a loveless marriage, many abused, beaten by husbands who didn’t want to be in the marriage in the first place? That’s a hell of an improvement, yes indeedy. Frem is right on target about people like you; you want women back in the kitchen, pregnant and with no power whatsoever. The current situation isn’t a good one, but AGAIN, what we’ve been talking about is TEMPORARY, pitiful little, assistance to families, and DRUG TESTING of government employees with no cause.

You want to debate how it’s “fiscally responsible” and “smaller government”, please do so. You want to spout about unrelated subjects, go right ahead, but you have nothing to stand on.

I don’t agree with Frem 100%, but there’s some truth to what he wrote. Obviously you’re one of those he’s talking about, from what you wrote.

NewOld...sigh...what a shame it ISN’T in the Constitution, eh?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, June 6, 2011 9:11 AM

HARDWARE


You know what Niki? You don't offer any alternatives except to reach deeper into my pocket. There will never be an end to the begging hands and bleeding hearts.

It is funny that you mention tornadoes. 3 of my relatives were hit by tornadoes in Massachusetts last week. The government is still trying to find it's own ass with two hands and a flashlight and failing at it. Meanwhile my family has already mobilized and replaced all the windows, will have the roofs repaired this weekend and has one of the 2 destroyed cars replaced.

But others are content to sit around and wait for Uncle Sugar to rescue them.

I kind of hope some day you fall into desperate straits. That way you'll get to see how much assistance the government actually gets down to street level.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, June 6, 2011 12:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:


You know once upon a time, when a man got a girl in a family way they had an institution called a shotgun wedding. The man was going to stand up and do the right thing by that woman or her family was going to make sure he wasn't going to go on and do it with some other girl. This charming little cultural curiosity came about because the financial burden of providing for that child would have then fallen on her family. Now, thanks to welfare, the financial burden fall on the taxpayers! Let's have lots and lots of kids who never know who their father is! That'll be great! And if the mother has the desire to have more than a minimum income, minimum life, that child will have no adult supervision while mom is trying to make a better life!!! Awesome!

Now who the fuck thought that was a good idea?



Arnold Schwarzeneggar?

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Monday, June 6, 2011 12:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

I kind of hope some day you fall into desperate straits. That way you'll get to see how much assistance the government actually gets down to street level.




I think the people of Iraq have had an ample education at how pitiful our government is at getting assistance to anyone. They're worse off now than they were under Saddam!

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Monday, June 6, 2011 5:24 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

But others are content to sit around and wait for Uncle Sugar to rescue them.

I kind of hope some day you fall into desperate straits. That way you'll get to see how much assistance the government actually gets down to street level.

What you are inferring, as you did before, is that anyone and everyone is ABLE to take care of themselves. My argument is that there are those who AREN’T. Not everything is black and white, see? Shades of grey. I HAVE fallen into desperate straits. My parents are dead and I have not one single relative in the world. My husband was hit IN A CROSSWALK by a hit-and-run driver and unable to work for over six months. The government got us through, and we did what we could do on our own. I worked all my life, so did Jim. Something hit us out of the blue. THOSE are the people I’m talking about---to you and your ilk, anyone who takes anything from the government is a slacker. It’s a sad mentality. I repeat: The drug testing is for people applying for temporary assistance (and they have to be a “family” to even apply) consisting of $300 a month (try living on that) for a maximum of two years. That you envision this as being completely made up of slackers illustrates your mentality.
Quote:

You don't offer any alternatives except to reach deeper into my pocket.
My pocket and my husband’s too, by the way. And given this is a country where supposedly the majority rules, I guess you’d have to poll the whole country on whether they want some of their tax money spent on helping those unable to help themselves or whether they’d rather have it go to the military-industrial complex, wouldn’t you? It’s not all black and white, as I said. I’m grateful for the assistance we got and have desire to give back, which I do through volunteerism and contributions (which I don’t claim on my taxes). We see it differently.

Jim and I did whatever we could to get by during that time. We sold my camper, knowing we'd never have enough money to buy another. We sold a lot, and wiped out our savings. Neither of us has any relatives (well, he has kids, but one of them is in bad shape and the other we wouldn't ask, tho' she and her yuppie husband are quite well off--neither did they offer), so we're on our own, and we'd have lost our home if we hadn't had any help. Jim got back on his feet earlier than he was supposed to and went back to work in a lot of pain (he nearly died from loss of blood when he was hit).

We bust our butts, take care of ourselves, and sometimes Jim's son; we've taken in two people, one from England and another from Back East (who still lives with us) who were in bad situations, people we'd never met in person before they came; the first lived with us for over 4 years, Choey's been here almost 3. I'll bet I've done more volunteer work than you ever have, and tho' we don't have much, I give what I can to several worthy causes. We're the last thing from "slackers" there ever was, but for a time, we needed help. I believe we reflect the majority of those applying for that temporary assistance, rather than the "slackers" and "begging" hands you envision anyone needing temporary help to be.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 3:07 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm not going to say some of the things I feel like saying to Hardware right now. We've been getting along lately, but this isn't my speed. If we lived in a culture and society where family took care of their own, where people did for each other, where we all looked after one another, then we might not need as much government assistance for those who need a bit of help. But as it stands now a lot of folks don't live in families and communities like that and so the assistance is necessary. I guess that's all I wanted to say really.

On the surface making sure people aren't going to blow their monthly amount on unnecessary substances sounds reasonable to me. But there are the logistics: paying for the tests, personal privacy, the unconstitutionalness thing, it really isn't such a good idea in the end.


Frem a chara,
Somewhat unrelated, but you brought it up: I am someone who believes in "magic numbers" I'm actually a big fan of age designation. I guess I want to know how much, if any, things should be reserved for grown folk? And how would you define grown if you had your way? I think of 18 as grown, I view 18 and 19 as when someone is grown but still has a bit of boy or girl left in them, but they have man or woman in them too now. When someone is 20 I believe that they are a full man or full woman. I think that age designation is good because it is equalizing and without it on a legal level I worry about kids being taken advantage of. I should also point out that everyone's manhood or womanhood is different, it looks different for everyone. My womanhood is different than my best friend Jennifer's womanhood and from J's womanhood (one of my favorite folk at the day center I help at on Mon.) but we are all women.
END OF RANT"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 6:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Riona, I am learning towards the idea of a more graduated system rather than an on/off switch, which is ridiculous in and of itself cause folk mature at different rates anyways.

To that end there would be testing at each stage, something like the old tests of manhood/womanhood, but refined into something more fitting for modern society and the maturity/knowledge/skills required to operate within.

Problem with the latter is that many adults (those that wouldn't be grandfathered in as pre-existent) would throw a complete fucking hissy cause for a fact there ARE many so-called "Adults" who *lack* those skills/knowledge/maturity, and they'd be none too happy about being called on it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 8:04 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think I'll stick with my system, but we can agree to disagree. What you say in principle makes sense under certain conditions. But I think my system is more fair and equal. Besides under your system, who knows, I might not pass the test. :)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 7:13 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Niki - the appalling part of that, is how all of them refuse to countenence the notion that folks PAID INTO THAT SYSTEM, under what amounts to a contractual agreement that if injured/disabled, the Gov will return some of the money paid in (and you bet your ass they do so in direct proportion to what YOU paid into it, always skimming it down to the lowest possible level by any means necessary, up to and including downright lies) so that you can (kinda-sorta-maybe) survive until you are back on your feet...

Which doesn't often happen cause they don't offer enough for most folk to do so, just barely enough to keep em hanging on and hoping, but never quite enough to climb out of the hole, thus ensuring their eternal dependancy and placing the Gov firmly in control of their lives.

Still, this is CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT - admittedly a gunpoint one under duress cause you have no option to refuse, but still it functions in much the same manner of insurance, and that's THEIR money, jacked from them via Fed and FICA taxes, which is coming back to them for the most part, and yet you hear these fucking pricks whinge and whine about folks using services THEY PAID FOR ?

They gonna complain when we plug in appliances or make phone calls too ?
Cause how dare we actually use services we paid for, don't we know our place is to shovel our treasure into corporate coffers without complaint?! *snarl-snark!*

Fuck that - and worse, the Gov has this little problem with not living up to their end of the bargain, often illegally so (since they're also in charge of the law, enforcing it against them becomes... problematic, at best) such as when I learned Social Security Disability was stalling off terminal patients (which at the time included me, despite not ACTUALLY being terminal, damn idiot doctors) in hopes that they would die before their case wended it's way through the blockade of obfuscation and red tape - an act of sheer meanness no doubt cheered on in private by our mean-spirited so-called "conservatives" no matter their desultory and half-hearted (often obviously so) attempts not to appear complete and total dickheads.

End of things though, I really don't give a fuck about their rules concerning this, so much as one of mine - YOU. DO. *NOT* BREAK. CONTRACT. WITH. ME. - can I say that any louder ? is that not clear enough ?
I pay for a service, I GET that service, I *WILL* get that service, even if I have to take it by force, chicanery, or in-extremis, legal action. (which amounted to garrotting them with their own red tape, since what else to DO when so badly crippled but study their own regs, neh ?)

Anyhow, the way the so-called "conservatives" sleaze around the simple fact that most of the folk on the receiving end of these benefits at one time or another paid for them is very telling - and bugs me because after the money has been taken and chewed to the bone by administrative costs, in many cases it might have been better not to have taken it in the first goddamn place.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 7:51 AM

HARDWARE


Maybe the essential difference between us is I had it drilled into my head as a child that the government will not be there when you really need them. Or if they show up it will be half-assed and inappropriate.

E.G. I have an acquaintance who is in the Missouri Milita. They showed up when asked by the state to help out in Joplin. First thing first FEMA was all over them for paperwork. They made sure their i's were dotted and their t's were crossed. Handed in their paperwork and asked; "What do you need us to do?" The FEMA coordinator said; "Hell if I know, I just wanted the paperwork." After being turned away at 2 coordination centers, one for law enforcement ONLY and one for the Red Cross, they just hit the streets and started helping people clean up the wreckage. Since they showed up with equipment and the National Guard showed up with boots and gloves the "evil militia" was a hell of a lot more effective than the official response.

More and more I see this. First it was hurricane Hugo, then Andrew, the Mississippi flooding in '96, (or was it 97?) Katrina, the list goes on and on. The incompetence crosses all administrations. There are too many people and not enough resources. There will never be enough resources even if you bleed every single taxpayer dry.

The solution? I've got some ideas that I'm not willing to share here. Suffice it to say I am not counting on the government to be there for me at retirement. I intend to be as self sufficient as possible before that time comes.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 8:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Yeah, Michigan Militia gets some of that, but not so much - they do show up for missing persons, search and rescue, devils night - stuff where you need more bodies and being picky about it is just stupid, since they have at least enough competence to do these things, and more importantly, the will.

As for the Gov not being there when you need em, well, personal experience, as above - that's a fact and no denyin it, lesson learned and preparations made, although with my recent illness it came on quick enough I was unable to activate them (since rectified) which required finagaling that temporary hospital discharge.

One thing we might find agreement on is thus - regarding such Government "help", particularly welfare and whatnot, is that the Gov takes from these people, especially the working poor since they often work multiple jobs and don't get single-employer exemption, nor are they learned enough in tax law (which is difficult even for clever folk!) to avoid most of the ruinous exploitation within, so they get hammered pretty heavy.

And then when they fall below the "waterline" - all that money they paid in, you think about this, the administrative costs of collection, enforcement, counting and accounting, then the overhead of the social services dept itself, then payout, accounting and auditing (cause if nothing else, the Gov looks for any excuse to not let go of it, of course), by that time whatever resources are left to offer have been gnawed down to the marrow - and perhaps if they had not taken so goddamn much from those folk they'd not have fallen into poverty and needed this assistance in the first freakin place, neh ?
I mean, taking someones joint of beef, chewing it to the bone and throwing it back is NOT a gift, nor is it any kind of act of benevolence cause we all know how public services budgets get robbed for pet projects and pork besides, don't we now ?

Ergo, I am a big, big fan of Tax Exemption for the poor - Alan Grayson had a hell of an idea in his "War is making you poor act" in that trimming some of the ungodly pork from the military/defense budget could have offered this without impacting any other budget item whatsoever.
(This is well worth the five minutes, and how often do you see a "liberal" stand for fiscal conservatism?)



Too bad that didn't fly, cause it woulda done wonders for our current economic situation by putting more "fuel" in it's engine - can't run an economy on no money, just like you can't run a car on no gasoline, eh ?

Philosophically you and I might be all but shooting at each other, but if you focus on the PRACTICAL, you might find a surprising amount of correllation of ideas.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 1:04 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Frem has some really good points here.

I guess I see what you're saying in your above post Hardware, I hope that you are in a position to do that, to be able to have enough of your own money when you retire.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Friday, June 10, 2011 6:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, Frem, Hardware:
Quote:

If we lived in a culture and society where family took care of their own, where people did for each other, where we all looked after one another, then we might not need as much government assistance for those who need a bit of help. But as it stands now a lot of folks don't live in families and communities like that and so the assistance is necessary.
Bang on, Riona, but you see, for the “haves”, that’s not an argument. “I got mine, fuck you” is the reigning mentality, and that will never change.
Quote:

the appalling part of that, is how all of them refuse to countenence the notion that folks PAID INTO THAT SYSTEM, under what amounts to a contractual agreement that if injured/disabled, the Gov will return some of the money paid in (and you bet your ass they do so in direct proportion to what YOU paid into it, always skimming it down to the lowest possible level by any means necessary, up to and including downright lies) so that you can (kinda-sorta-maybe) survive until you are back on your feet...
Yeah, Frem, that’s one of the things that gets me so about the issue. It’s like a few of the other right-wing “talking points”; they cheerfully forget any of that and go right on calling anyone who wants a RETURN on any part of that “contract” as “leeches”, etc.

As to
Quote:

Maybe the essential difference between us is I had it drilled into my head as a child that the government will not be there when you really need them. Or if they show up it will be half-assed and inappropriate.
A valid point, as is the rest of what you wrote. The difference is, that your view is to simply do away with any safety net, mine is that “something is better than nothing” and we should try to FIX what’s wrong. And that contract thing Frem spoke about. Disaster assistance is one aspect; Social Security, Medicare, Disability are what Frem’s talking about, and those are NOT “gimmes”, I paid into all of those and DO consider it a contract. Essentially I paid into a system for INSURANCE, just like I’d pay an insurance company. Insurance is a bet; the company is betting you’ll die or in some other way not need what you paid in, so they get to keep your payments. We’re betting we’ll NEED that insurance. JUST like health or life insurance, if I win (stay alive long enough or need the assistance), it’s the government’s JOB to make good on the contract. You guys would rather call it “entitlements”, like we think we’re entitled to special treatment. That’s bullshit.

Frem:
Quote:

I mean, taking someones joint of beef, chewing it to the bone and throwing it back is NOT a gift, nor is it any kind of act of benevolence cause we all know how public services budgets get robbed for pet projects and pork besides, don't we now ?
Right on! And we all know how aptly that applies to Social Security...having been robbed by government for decades, now they tell us we have to work longer or face cuts (or have it done away with entirely) because it’s running out of money. BULLSHIT!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, June 10, 2011 6:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There's also the point that my husband and I busted our BUTTS to put money away, paid off our house with our entire savings (RIGHT before he was hit, talk about irony!), don't use credit cards, put together a retirement account since that disaster and put as much as we can into it. Nonetheless, we will be hard pressed to survive our old age, if we live that long, and Jim is still working at 72 (tho' he's JUST managed to drop back to 3-4 days a week, as he's so tired all the time that he spends his days off mostly resting).

If WE'RE in that position, I can only imagine how it must be for millions of others who aren't that lucky, like the ones who Wall Street robbed of their retirement accounts, the vets who were instantly forgotten the minute they came home, stuck in Vet hospitals that would shame a slum, or sent back for another tour with PTSD, or the people who bought into the MASSIVE offers of credit cards in a society which hits us over the head with "buy, buy, BUY!" every day in every way. Those people are going to be in HELL if they live long enough, so not offering any safety net, aside from being just plain wrong, is FISCALLY wrong as well.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, June 10, 2011 6:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


DAMN! I tried going back to the old format to edit that for my colors/fonts, and there's not even an "edit" button for posts ON that format! This is ridiculous; I e-mailed Haken, but haven't gotten any response. Does anyone else have the problem that they are unable to edit in Beta or that there's no "edit" button at ALL in the original? It's getting VERY frustrating...!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, June 10, 2011 9:52 AM

HARDWARE


I've resigned myself to the fact that I will not be retiring. I'll work until I drop in the harness. Who I work FOR that is the important part. Something I will share is that I am looking to have a farm before too much longer. I'll leverage it against my IT work so I have an income stream while I am setting up. I hope to have enough acreage to support a significant portion of my immediate family. Sounds too much like a commune. Let's call it a freehold. Anyhow, I don't believe the government has figured out a way to tax you on food and livestock you raise and consume yourself... yet.

Too much to do, always have preparations to make. And yes, I realize that if the worst case scenario occurs we won't have the same standard of living that we currently enjoy, but we will have a living. And hopefully that will be enough.

But the federal government's takings from my paycheck? I've written them off. No use chasing them, spending good money going after bad. I try to find as many loopholes as I can to get my money back every year. I pay good people to do it, but they still keep a good chunk.

Barter is good, or trading work for goods. Easier when you've got a skilled discipline that people need. What the government don't know won't hurt them.

But the final thought I have is this; the culture of dependence formulated by welfare is itself an evil. Knowing that there's always a safety net affords people the opportunity to be rash or sloppy. And worse still, dependent on the government. Build your own safety net. And remember that there are no guarantees against a rainy day. Having a good roof is a better plan than getting the government man to loan you a tent.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Friday, June 10, 2011 10:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

And yes, I realize that if the worst case scenario occurs we won't have the same standard of living that we currently enjoy, but we will have a living. And hopefully that will be enough.
No, the worst-case scenario is if a flood or something wipes you out, or you get too old or disabled to work the land or afford others to work it with you (unless you're surrounded by enough family to do it for you and none of the younger ones want to work off the farm).

You're right, there are no guarantees. Obviously you're in favor of "survival of the fittest". And luckiest. I'm not. Simple as that. I think something is better than nothing; I experienced it and I'm grateful for it.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, June 10, 2011 4:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

DAMN! I tried going back to the old format to edit that for my colors/fonts, and there's not even an "edit" button for posts ON that format! This is ridiculous; I e-mailed Haken, but haven't gotten any response. Does anyone else have the problem that they are unable to edit in Beta or that there's no "edit" button at ALL in the original? It's getting VERY frustrating...!



Stupid question, but did you make sure you LOGGED IN on the old system as well? If you're logged into the beta site, you're not automatically logged in on the old site. I have to log in on both.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, June 10, 2011 6:22 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:
I've resigned myself to the fact that I will not be retiring. I'll work until I drop in the harness. Who I work FOR that is the important part. Something I will share is that I am looking to have a farm before too much longer. I'll leverage it against my IT work so I have an income stream while I am setting up. I hope to have enough acreage to support a significant portion of my immediate family. Sounds too much like a commune. Let's call it a freehold. Anyhow, I don't believe the government has figured out a way to tax you on food and livestock you raise and consume yourself... yet.


Oh just you wait till you have to deal with Gov/DNR regulators and Monsanto cronies and local Gov, there's REASONS why farmers are, as a rule, paranoid and angry people.

And heaven help you if you so much as make one single gallon of biofuel yourself and use it, cause then you'll get slapped with a tremendously punitive motor fuel tax on everything you grow whether it can even BE rendered into biofuel to keep you on the petroleum tit...

Alas it's not quite as simple as one would think, and the need to lawyer up just to keep the local-gov vultures off is something you need to take into account, as is the notion of needing sufficient discouragement force against the idea of winding up like Randy Weaver even if one holds no peculiar or controversial beliefs simply because the local law needed an excuse to use their pretty toys or a high profile incident in order to look good and secure more funding.

I did mention before, I think - that during the FLDS fiasco, certain hippie-type folk with their own collective become terribly concerned and used the funds they'd been saving up for a John Deer to buy a used but functional T-72 from the asset liquidator for the former Tankride, LLC...
WITH three live rounds.
(albeit the main gun was converted to a smaller 75mm M2/M3 at some point)
Although at the time I thought this a needlessly provocative and dangerous act, that and certain measures taken by other isolationist groups did indeed have a substantial impact on shutting down further aggression from the state, so who am I to argue with what worked.

The amusing irony to it all is that the damn T-72, once fitted with an attachment to use much of the same gear the tractor would have, apparently not only does an excellent job as a friggin tractor, but also runs quite well on biodiesel - not to mention, of course, the notion of a bunch of hippies with a damn T-72, complete with peace sign flag flying from the radio aerial.
*shaking head*

Still, it's worth considering measures to protect yourself because the Gov, and society, as a rule, do not take well to someone who not only won't drink the kool-aid, but is no longer dependant on them, giving them no 'hook" to control with.
You'll be pretty shocked and surprised at just how visceral and nasty that reaction is gonna be, if you don't lay your social and other groundwork down well in advance.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, June 13, 2011 7:56 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hey Hardware, I hope your farm plan works out, it sounds like a nice idea and I don't care if you call it a commune, I have no problem with them in the right context, in the right context I think they can be pretty cool. But freehold works too.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:20 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mike, it's not a stupid question. I didn't know that about logging in, but given my computer automatically logs me in, I don't think it pertains to me. I did PM Haken, and as usual, bless his heart, he fixed it. Much grateful!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, June 14, 2011 2:24 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem: Thanks! I don't know all the ins and outs of the stuff you mentioned, but I know it exists, and I know "farming" ain't what it used to be, nor is it any kind of guarantee against being wiped out.

NOTHING is easy these days, and working for oneself (in any capacity) is harder than it used to be. I don't put it down necessarily to bad people in government, just to GOVERNMENT trying to do everything and failing miserably at the vast majority of it. EVERYTHING is too complex these days, and working for oneself is more complex than just about anything else, unfortunately!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, June 14, 2011 4:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh man, that one could go on for it's own topic, not only do you have crack brained crusading regulators and ever-ambiguous and changing regs NO ONE can afford to keep up with, you also have fucking Monsanto in the mix, and their all too cozy relationships WITH those regulators - I hear about this all the damn time from the Beet Farmers up here.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18777.cfm

And here's a classic example of that kind of wackery.
Criminalizing everyone
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/05/criminalizing-everyone
/?page=all#pagebreak

Quote:

“You don’t need to know. You can’t know.” That’s what Kathy Norris, a 60-year-old grandmother of eight, was told when she tried to ask court officials why, the day before, federal agents had subjected her home to a furious search.

The agents who spent half a day ransacking Mrs. Norris’ longtime home in Spring, Texas, answered no questions while they emptied file cabinets, pulled books off shelves, rifled through drawers and closets, and threw the contents on the floor.

The six agents, wearing SWAT gear and carrying weapons, were with - get this- the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

Kathy and George Norris lived under the specter of a covert government investigation for almost six months before the government unsealed a secret indictment and revealed why the Fish and Wildlife Service had treated their family home as if it were a training base for suspected terrorists. Orchids.

That’s right. Orchids.


As usual, the greatest danger to us and our liberties comes not from our supposed enemies, but from our so-called protectors.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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