The 13th Floor by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The 13th Floor

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Thursday, August 18, 2011 15:31
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VIEWED: 1190
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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:59 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-15-2011/indecision-2012--
-corn-polled-edition---ron-paul---the-top-tier?fb_ref=share_fblike&fb_source=search_multiline

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Priceless, Wulf.

I missed that episode, will have to catch it on the web.

Go Jon!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:54 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ron Paul, in many ways, is the candidate we can ALL support.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:13 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ron Paul, in many ways, is the candidate we can ALL support.

....until you figure out that Libertarianism makes very little sense!

http://sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:45 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Wow.

The belief that personal freedom and accountability is "wrong"? That libertarianism makes you "stupid"?

Im constantly being accused of being a jackboot... blindly following authority...

Yet, HERE, is a true example of that type.

m52nickerson wrote: http://sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php

Will ANYONE stand against it? Or is someone agreeing with you, worth ignoring their obvious intention?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 9:56 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Wow.

The belief that personal freedom and accountability is "wrong"? That libertarianism makes you "stupid"?

Im constantly being accused of being a jackboot... blindly following authority...

Yet, HERE, is a true example of that type.

m52nickerson wrote: http://sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php

Will ANYONE stand against it? Or is someone agreeing with you, worth ignoring their obvious intention?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

From the article:

"Libertarians are for "individual rights", and against "force" and "fraud" - just as THEY define it. Their use of these words, however, when examined in detail, is not likely to accord with the common meanings of these terms. What person would proclaim themselves in favor of "force and fraud"? One of the little tricks Libertarians use in debate is to confuse the ordinary sense of these words with the meaning as "terms of art" in Libertarian axioms. They try to set up a situation where if you say you're against "force and fraud", then obviously you must agree with Libertarian ideology, since those are the definitions. If you are in favor of "force and fraud", well, isn't that highly immoral? So you're either one of them, or some sort of degenerate (note the cultish aspect again), one who doesn't think "force and fraud must be banished from human relationships"."

Then we get...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Wow.

The belief that personal freedom and accountability is "wrong"? That libertarianism makes you "stupid"?

You can't write this stuff folks!

Wulfenstar, I know it is hard for you but read the article and drop the talking points.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 10:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, let's see:

Quote:
The idea that Libertarians don't believe in the initiation of force is pure propaganda. They believe in using force as much as anyone else, if they think the application is morally correct.

That's our Wulf. Force is wrong unless it's something HE thinks is approriate.

Quote:
A Libertarian can blithely argue that all problems would be solved by private charity, by people of goodwill, or if government would just get out of the way.

Yup, I've heard that one, too. And

Quote:
Thus, not only do they develop a mental block against the actual functioning of huge portions of our society, but this block then often turns into raving denial when anyone else says something outside their blinders.

how many of us are familiar with THAT reaction?

Quote:
Being against business-worship is hardly the same thing as government-worship.

Now THERE's a concept beyond some people's imagination; if we say anything anti-business, we obviously want to be sucking off the teat of government, right?

No, I think he's got some valid points. I don't agree with them all, but a number of them certainly fit our so-called "libertarians" here.

Nowhere has anyone said that the belive in personal freedom and accountability is wrong, Wulf. The problem is in that you think you OWN that concept, that it can't belong to anyone who DOESN'T think like you, so therefore anyone who believes that but also believes not all people will be accountable and that personal freedom doesn't have the right to trample on others or finds ANYTHING positive in authority, must be a jackboot. The problem is that you DO live in "libertopia" and are totally blind to it's problems in the real world.

There can be numerous disagreements with that article; saying it is "blindly following authority" isn't one of them. It's absurd. There's no talk of "authority" within the article at all, there are reasoned arguments as to why libertarianism is unrealistic. The fact that you connect the two makes quite a statemnt.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 10:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA

*snicker*
While it's always amusing to take the piss outta Libertarians for their hypocrisy and willful blindness, you know what's even MORE fun ?

Doin it to Anarchists, especially if you're one of em, cause while they don't really believe in might-makes-right, they do acknowledge the unfortunate reality that people use force against each other all the time, intentionally or not, and this does on occasion result in a bizarre form of trial-by-combat combo argument/wrestling match, where they're bouncing each other off the walls WHILE having a rather spirited verbal debate.

Rarely solves anything, but damn it's fun to watch.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 10:55 AM

DREAMTROVE

Yeha, but i'm still in the "go easy on the newbie" mode. Nick doesn't know he's on a basicslly libertarian forum, so it's just not right to assassinate him for it

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 11:05 AM

BYTEMITE

Well, Anarchist and or Libertarian, even though the world outside the US doesn't really see a distinction. Although maybe you guys are right, and I've been too hard on him.

Just another sign of Firefly's wide appeal.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 11:19 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Yeha, but i'm still in the "go easy on the newbie" mode. Nick doesn't know he's on a basicslly libertarian forum, so it's just not right to assassinate him for it

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

Please go for it, I'm a big boy and can take it.

I don't post in political threads expecting to play nice.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 1:21 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Yeha, but i'm still in the "go easy on the newbie" mode. Nick doesn't know he's on a basicslly libertarian forum, so it's just not right to assassinate him for it

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

Thing is, there are a bunch of people here who CLAIM to be libertarian, but who are in reality nothing more than right-wing fascist thugs trying to cover up their previous loyalty to the Dubya wing of the GOP.

And then there are a FEW *REAL* libertarians, who tend to actually stay pretty quiet about it, and are as likely as not to rip idiots like Wulfie and Rappy a new asshole for pissing all over the very concept of actual libertarianism.

Can'tTakeSky comes to mind, and AnthonyT, and to some degree even Frem, although he'd reject the label outright. But they embody the TRUE spirit of libertarianism, its metaphorical message of "I don't care what you do as long as it doesn't shit on my lawn." And they reject outright the so-called tea parties' highjacked astroturfed message of corporate cronyism draped in the flag and called - laughingly at best - "libertarianism".

And they also tend to realize that there IS no *perfect* form of government, and not *pure* system that honestly works for everyone. At best, you can utilize bits and pieces from several different systems and try to balance them out a bit.

Ron Paul is about as close to a real libertarian candidate as I've ever seen, and the majority of the tea party people here will be among the first to ridicule him.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 5:33 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Can't Take Sky has been absent for quite a while now, I know she was taking a break but its been a long time. I have varied and mixed feelings about her, I often disagreed with her, but we take all kinds here, her, me, and everyone else.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 16, 2011 6:00 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
he's on a basicslly libertarian forum

Are you freaking kidding me? We have no libertarians, Mike is right about the "closest thing" we have to actual libertarians. At least you're consistent in saying things that make my eyes roll, DT, but whew, what forum are YOU on?

And yes, I miss CTTS, along with many others...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 17, 2011 5:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I would very much like to see Ron Paul in control of our military. It's one of the few things he could directly control as President. I'm fairly sure he would be prevented from doing anything else. The Checks and Balances would lock him in a straitjacket. (On some of his favorite issues, this may be a very good thing.)

But he could put an immediate end to all wartime activity with the flourish of a pen.

And so he will never be President.

God Bless him for raising awareness of issues, though. I recently got a new vehicle, because my Kia needed a repair that exceeded its Blue Book value. I miss my Ron Paul 2008 bumper sticker, in nearly pristine condition, that graced the back of my Sportage.

As an aside, while I wouldn't call this a Libertarian Forum, I have no problem calling this a Freedom Forum. Just so long as we remember that people are Free to have their own ideas on what Freedom is. No two people here have the exact same conception of it, nor draw their lines in the same places.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 17, 2011 6:41 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/1113439496001/whos-ignoring-ron-paul/

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, August 17, 2011 7:12 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

The Media is not covering Paul because he is not a front runner. Most polls he ends up in third or fourth.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/republican_p
residential_nomination-1452.html

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 17, 2011 7:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I have no problem calling this a Freedom Forum. Just so long as we remember that people are Free to have their own ideas on what Freedom is. No two people here have the exact same conception of it, nor draw their lines in the same places.

Now THAT I would agree with. I don't think any two of us agree on anything...we may agree to an extent, but we disagree on other aspects or how something should be implemented. We are a very diverse bunch of folk, in general, and while we may have some hard-core partisans, even they disagree from time to time.

But a libertarian forum? That leaves me shaking my head. In MY opinion, hat's just

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 17, 2011 7:51 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
The Media is not covering Paul because he is not a front runner. Most polls he ends up in third or fourth.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/republican_p
residential_nomination-1452.html

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Oddly, he tends to come in first or second in most straw polls and polls taken at conventions of conservatives.

And it IS odd that the media - including Fox, of course - don't cover him, and tend to barely mention him, as witnessed in Iowa, where he not only came in a strong second, but more than doubled the votes garnered by the third-place finisher. Still, how many times did you see it mentioned in coverage of the events? Bachmann first, Perry "strong" or "weak", depending on the source, Romney non-existent, etc., etc., but rarely even a MENTION of Dr. Paul's virtual dead-heat with Bachmann.

I'm not a big Ron Paul supporter, but I find it more than just a bit odd how ignored he is within his own party. He's obviously got a message that is resonating with a plurality of conservatives, if not a clear majority, but it seems to be drowned out by the media, almost as if they don't want you to hear the message.

I find that troubling.

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Wednesday, August 17, 2011 8:20 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
The Media is not covering Paul because he is not a front runner. Most polls he ends up in third or fourth.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/republican_p
residential_nomination-1452.html

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Oddly, he tends to come in first or second in most straw polls and polls taken at conventions of conservatives.

And it IS odd that the media - including Fox, of course - don't cover him, and tend to barely mention him, as witnessed in Iowa, where he not only came in a strong second, but more than doubled the votes garnered by the third-place finisher. Still, how many times did you see it mentioned in coverage of the events? Bachmann first, Perry "strong" or "weak", depending on the source, Romney non-existent, etc., etc., but rarely even a MENTION of Dr. Paul's virtual dead-heat with Bachmann.

I'm not a big Ron Paul supporter, but I find it more than just a bit odd how ignored he is within his own party. He's obviously got a message that is resonating with a plurality of conservatives, if not a clear majority, but it seems to be drowned out by the media, almost as if they don't want you to hear the message.

I find that troubling.

He does do well with straw polls. I think that is more because of the loyalty his supported show for him. Iowa was incomplete because Romney and Perry did not take part. Bachmann won which was the main story, and Pawlenty dropped out was the other.

He is ignored by his own party because while he shares many common beliefs is at odds with many of them also. The social conservatives don't care for him because he does not believe that same things they do. Fiscal conservatives think he goes to far with wanting to end the fed and other such ideas. War Hawks don't like him because he speaks out against the use of the us military for anything other then defense.

He really is the odd man out.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 1:29 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
and to some degree even Frem, although he'd reject the label outright.

I'm too poor to be Libertarian.

-F

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:31 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
and to some degree even Frem, although he'd reject the label outright.

I'm too poor to be Libertarian.

-F

Hello,

What's this?

Where's my check? ;-)

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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