REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Bakesale

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 20:19
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Monday, September 26, 2011 6:04 AM

DREAMTROVE



http://frontpagemag.com/2011/09/26/berkeley-bake-sale-reveals-the-frau
d-of-affirmative-action
/

Okay so the story is simple: kids held a bake sale with different prices for different races.

Cookies are cheapest if you're Native American, next black, then latino, etc. and most expensive if you're white.

This is illegal of course, or rather, unconstitutional, in violation of the 14th. You actually can't charge different prices to different consumers.

The stunt is an obvious parody of California law for admissions. A recent law passed extends the unconstitutional inequality of admissions, but the study has me thinking about a couple of things.

First: The students bakesale is the only reason anyone is considering the bill, which would have silently crept into law without their stunt. It takes some fortitude because this will name them persona non-grata on campus, just as it might do for me posting this thread, but here me out, I have a point.

Second: At what point does "equality" become racism?

When I was in college this sort of thing was already going on, but it never really bugged me that I worked two jobs to pay for my tuition, my black friends did not, because they got extra assistance, even though we were of the same economic background. It didn't bother me that they were accepted on a lower academic standard than I was. Part of the reason it never bothered me was that the student body was about 30% jewish, 60% wasp, and the rest was everyone else, and there were probably as many foreign students as other minorities. I was at least twice part of an over represented minority.

However, and this is where I have to say "Maybe Wulfie has a point" this is not the case in Berkeley, California.

The student body of UC berkeley is 30% white. The population of Berkeley, California is 60% white, as is the population of California, as is the population of the USA. (counting latino as a separate ethnicity.)

The majority of poor in the US are white. The underlying assumption of the legislation is that "Whites have more money" (There are some white people who have money, but there's an assumption here that those whites will automatically share with the have-nots, in face of all history) and "Whites get better grades" assumedly because they are "more advantaged" which, given the economics of it can be inferred to mean that there is an assumption here that whites are "smarter."

This is a very disturbing policy concept. Why would it even occur to someone to set up such a policy? I mean, the very obvious thing to do if you thought that the student body was unbalanced, okay, it's unbalanced, but under-representing the disadvantaged, would be to offer a sliding payscale. My local public services here have a sliding payscale. Before I was insured I could go a psychiatrist for $10 or a doctor for $80 (okay, a physician's assistant most likely, but the same is true in many clinics and hospitals.)

Sliding admissions are trickier, but there are two ways this has been done in the past: a) offering tutoring programs to help bring prospective students up to speed, and b) conditional enrollment where new students who don't meet academic standards go into their first year in either remedial classes or take normal first year classes but get college tutoring from TAs to help them get through (I worked for two years at such a job tutoring minority students, this does work for most students, those it doesn't simply don't belong in college. Face it, if you can't read or do simply math, you should not be a physics major.)

But none of these policies are inherently racist, because they all seek to create equality, rather than to set a double standard.

I find it disturbing that the overall demographics of it disturbing. It seems outdated notions of inequality are creating a new inequality. Even the overall California enrollment statistics, whites are over 60% of the student age population and under 50% of college enrollment.

I recall when I was in college I was told that instead of working I was eligible for loans, and I imagine that new white students at UC will be told the same thing. I could not do today what I did then, to work my way through, because of the absurd rising cost of education. If you were to take out loans, you would end up working for years to pay them off, with the average graduating student loan debt around $100k. What this amounts to is a system of indentured servitude, worse yet, classified by race.

Obviously the kids with the bakesale are being assholes, but I think they're making their point.

Shouldn't this just be a blind standards system?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 6:17 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Did you read the bill?

In part it goes like this:

This bill would authorize the University of California and the California State University to consider race, gender, ethnicity, and national origin, along with other relevant factors, in undergraduate and graduate admissions, to the maximum extent permitted by the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution, Section 31 of Article I of the California Constitution, and relevant case law.

(a) In determining the standards and criteria for undergraduate and graduate admissions to the University of California and the California State University, it is the intent of the Legislature that the governing boards do all of the following:
(1) Develop processes which strive to be fair and are easily understandable.
(2) Consider the use of criteria and procedures that allow students to enroll who are otherwise fully eligible and admissible but who have course deficiencies due to circumstances beyond their control, and, when appropriate, provide that the admission requires the student to make up the deficiency.

(c) (1) Pursuant to subdivision (b), the University of California may, and the California State University may, consider race, gender, ethnicity, national origin, geographic origin, and household income, along with other relevant factors, in undergraduate and graduate admissions, so long as no preference is given. This consideration may take place if and when the university, campus, college, school, or program is attempting to obtain educational benefit through the recruitment of a multifactored, diverse student body.

Nothing here about student aid, about lower admissions standards, about violating the 14th.



Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 26, 2011 6:37 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Also, your 'facts' are wrong yet again. California is 40% Caucasian, not 60%. OOPS. (The population of Berkeley, California is 60% white, as is the population of California, as is the population of the USA. (counting latino as a separate ethnicity.)) And if Anglos are losing out to anyone, it's to Asians, not Blacks, Hispanics, Indians or 'Other'.


US Census California
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html
Black persons 6.2%
American Indian and Alaska Native 1.0%
Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin 37.6%
Asian persons 13.0%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander 0.4%
Persons reporting two or more races 4.9%
White persons not Hispanic, persons 40.1%

UC Berkeley Census 2010
http://opa.berkeley.edu/institutionaldata/campusenroll.htm
African-American 3.4%
American Indian 0.8%
Chicano/Latino 11.5%
Asian-American 45.7%
White 31.7%
Not Given 7.0%



Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 26, 2011 6:42 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Overall, I don't know why you continue to post such factually wrong stuff. Google is right at your fingertips.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 26, 2011 7:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kiki, could you clarify please. You wrote "California is 40% Caucasian, not 60%", immediately followed by "The population of Berkeley, California is 60% white, as is the population of California". That's a contradiction; or were you quoting what he said? My brain isn't functioning too well this morning, so help me out, if you would.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, September 26, 2011 10:19 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Anybody got any current numbers about the student body of U C Berkeley, as opposed to the population of the city? I'm too lazy to look 'em up myself.

OOPS!! misread the titles of the tables. the second one was the student body. Sorry!

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Monday, September 26, 2011 11:24 AM

DREAMTROVE


Kiki

Nothing you posted disagrees with what I just posted.

I find a racially defined policy worrisome. I find it as worrisome here as I do in Arizona.

To say you will abide by the 14th here is just acknowledging the unconstitutionality of your measure, since the 14th actually does not permit any multiple standard at all.

You do realize the numbers you posted were the breakdown (ethnic) of Berkeley.edu, and not the City of Berkeley, CA, right?

Also, the small discrepancies, I got my numbers from wikipedia, the US census says the state is 57.6% white.

I'm not going to go all Wulfie on this one, but I just wanted to vent about the wrong solution to a problem. If the problem is that minorities are under-represented in higher education, maybe one should look to the quality of secondary or primary ed, or the way local property tax ensures that the wealthiest will get the most money in their district for education. Of course, over-represented here are asians, not whites or blacks.

I imagine a fair number of asian students in this case would be foreign born.


A little digging weakens the case of the young republicans: They've been holding this bakesale annually for 20 years. In that time, the white enrollment at the school has fallen off quite a bit. While they might be right about the bias of the system, their tactic is not working, even though it gets them in the news.

Nob, it was in my original post as well. 30% to 60%, or perhaps 31% to 56%, they are correct, they're an under-represented minority. I suppose that they could take their case to the CA supreme court and get a white minority quota if Kiki's #s are correct, but it would make more sense to end this madness, just void all racially targeted laws as unconstitutional and focus on economic disparities and education.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 11:35 AM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

She was trying to quote me


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Overall, I don't know why you continue to post such factually wrong stuff. Google is right at your fingertips.


Kiki

For the same reason you just did. Carelessness. You posted the class enrollment demographics for UC Berkeley as the Census data for the City of Berkeley. Obviously I looked up all this data before posting.

I knew a post like this would get flamed, but I was just averring that they had a point. They don't have to be catered to anymore that minorities who claim that their under-represented at universities, but they do illustrate that they are an under-represented minority, and yet, I suspect, are still paying more and requiring higher standards.

To me, this is just one more in a long run of racially focused policies to crop since 2000, and it's a disturbing trend, no matter whose side it's on. Remember, it's not always the downtrodden who get their axe on a block in such nonsense, sometimes it's the ruling class. We're all better off if we do not measure people by the color of their skin.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 11:45 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Sorry Niki - the statement in parrens was what DT posted, I reposted it to allow for easier comparison between his claims (CA is 60% non-Hispanic white) and the actual US Census data for California (CA is 40% non-Hispanic white).

If you are white, as I am, you are a minority (< 50%) even though as a group Caucasians are still the largest single demographic.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 26, 2011 11:47 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Anybody got any current numbers about the student body of U C Berkeley, as opposed to the population of the city? I'm too lazy to look 'em up myself.



And I wasn't entirely clear with the titles - both the US Census data for CA and the UC Berkeley data are from 2010. Apples to apples and all that.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 26, 2011 12:04 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Not in response to anything in particular, but I went to an extremely large university in NY State. It also had many post-graduate MS, PhD academic programs in everything from hard sciences to literature, art, social sciences and business; as well as medical, dental and veterinary MD, DDS, DVM programs; pharmacy, physical therapy, occupational therapy, med tech, and nursing schools to name a select few; etc. What I am trying to relate is how large and diverse it was. The BEST part of going there, for me, was meeting people from all over the country, indeed all over the world. I had my Pakistani friends, Indian friends, Chinese friends, Egyptian friends, Korean friends, my friends from the rough and tumble southside, first-generation Italian and Estonian friends, and yes, my NYC Jewish friends. Why ever would you NOT want to have a diverse student body?

It was the most awesome thing, ever.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 26, 2011 2:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I wish I lived close to the site of this bake sale. The idea of getting free baked goods appeals to me.

And unless they have an intrusive verification procedure set up, my status as a Native American Female will entitle me to free baked goods. (And add something to the debate, I wager.)

Mmmm. Muffins.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, September 26, 2011 2:44 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Yeah DT, this is weird and you have every right to point it out.

Also, I hate the term WASP. Everyone else gets a nice hyphinated adjective to describe themselves, I get a painful insect. Or I get an adjective, Caucasian, which doesn't make sense because none of my ancestors came from eastern Europe to my knowledge, so the Caucasus mountains aren't present in my lineage. Thusly whenever I get forms to fill out I always choose other and write in European American in there, that way I can have a pretty hyphin too."A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, September 26, 2011 7:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"You posted the class enrollment demographics for UC Berkeley as the Census data for the City of Berkeley."

Just to point out - no, I posted UC Berkeley data as UC Berkeley data, and CA data as CA data. I didn't post the City of Berkeley data, as Berkeley is part of the UC system (similar to the SUNY system) and draws students from all over CA.

Also, you may not have been paying attention to the language of the bill - they are not focused on 'race' (race, gender, ethnicity, and national origin, along with other relevant factors) as much as they are on background, in order to have a diverse student body as part of an educational experience.

I remember when I got a scholarship to Rensselaer - I swear I would have been the only female in a place chock full of Anglo male nerd droids with white short sleeved shirts, slide rules in their breast-pockets and skinny dark ties. Ugh. Now THAT was a place crying out for diversity.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 26, 2011 11:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Also, I hate the term WASP. Everyone else gets a nice hyphinated adjective to describe themselves, I get a painful insect. Or I get an adjective, Caucasian, which doesn't make sense because none of my ancestors came from eastern Europe to my knowledge, so the Caucasus mountains aren't present in my lineage. Thusly whenever I get forms to fill out I always choose other and write in European American in there, that way I can have a pretty hyphin too.


I prefer the term Cracker-Hillbilly myself...



Ken I get a yeehaw on that ?

-Frem

PS. Do we qualify as endagered species due to urbanisation ? - cause we can so exploit that!

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:00 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


You could write that in, that's what the "other" category is for.

Weeeee Dowgie

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, September 28, 2011 6:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Caught the bakesale thing on TV last night, had me giggling. Neat to know even the RIGHTIES in Berserkeley are as crazy as the lefties! Found this:
Quote:

Today's WSJ has a story (link for subscribers only) on how young Republicans are "flourishing at liberal Berkeley." According to the story, the College Republicans chapter is among the largest student groups on campus, with over 600 members. While liberals still outnumber conservatives by a large margin on the campus, the story claims, the young Republicans are more unified, while liberal students are splintered.
Quote:

The growth of the Berkeley College Republicans at one of the nation's most liberal campuses echoes some broader political trends. At Berkeley, while leftist students still dominate and outnumber conservatives, the liberal groups have splintered and are now spread across factions from the Cal Democrats to the International Socialist Organization to groups formed to oppose the war in Iraq. At the same time, several faculty members say, there are more conservative-leaning students than in the past, propelled by swells of patriotic feeling after events like Sept. 11 and an increase in the number of religious student groups.

The modus operandi of the Berkeley Republicans over the past few years has been to be provocative. In 2003, its members opposed affirmative action with an "Affirmative Action Bake Sale," where students paid for pastries on a sliding scale: White students were charged more, while Hispanics and African-Americans paid less. Under Mr. Prendergast's presidency, the group this year protested the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, or PETA, by giving away hot dogs and encouraging students to eat meat. Mr. Prendergast also held an "Anti Antiwar Rally" in nearby San Francisco, and staged a "Dunk a Republican" contest. The group gets several thousand dollars a year from the Berkeley student government. It also does its own fund raising and will sometimes get donations from local Republicans and others.

The story discusses the growth of the group, and closes with this cute anecdote from last year's annual student organization fair:
Quote:

UC Berkeley Chancellor Robert Birgeneau walked by. When he saw President Reagan's cardboard figure, the chancellor chuckled and stopped to talk.

"I gave an interview to a British newspaper recently, and the journalist asked me about Berkeley's liberalism," said Mr. Birgeneau to the group. "I had to tell him that the largest student political group on campus is Republican. You should've seen him: He was so disappointed."

http://volokh.com/posts/1161347737.shtml. Shouldn't actually surprise me, if I thought about it. The whole country has leaned so far to the right that it would be surprising if Berserkeley DIDN'T reflect it. That's okay, politics will always swing right and left; Berserkeley libs will always outnumber cons. But it's amusing, nonetheless.

So this isn't their first bakesale, from what it says. Too bad they can't come up with something more imaginative, tho' it HAS captured the attention of the MSM, so maybe it's effective enough for their purposes.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:19 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


That's interesting Niki.

I like hotdogs. Although I had a nasty one the other day, the daytime option where I teach singing hosted a lunch for all its members on Sat. right before my singers had their concert, kill two birds with one stone ya know. So there were these guys barbecuing and doing a good job, but the hotdogs (I think they might have been chicken dogs :( weren't good at all, I blame the meat quality. But everyone else seemed to like it fine and they did great at the concert.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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