About that "50% Pay No Taxes" Myth by Niki2

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Guess what, they live here that mean they pay for those things regardless if they use them.

That was my point. They pay taxes to support services they never use. So should they get a rebate?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

No.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 7, 2011 3:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Niki, Six's basic philosophy is pretty much in line with Rappy's.

"I got mine; FUCK YOU!" Oh, and if you get sick, then fuck you in both ears. If you get blown up by terrorists, you clearly made the wrong choices in life. If they see someone starving to death, their "solution" is to tease that person with a sandwich. If they see a sick person, they'll laugh at that person for being weak.

I'm actually surprised they both don't go out and celebrate 9/11 every year as that day when the government got downsized by a bunch of foreigners.

Odd how I got tossed into the mix here. Nothing of what you claim has any semblance of my positions.

" I got mine... ". Well, yes, I do have mine. I worked for it, ergo, it is mine, to do with as I see fit. Sames goes for you, and everyone else. Not real sure how that's an issue, for anyone.

If you get sick, same as if I get sick. Neither one of us are DUE a portion of someone else's life, simply because it makes someone else feel good about themselves. But feel free to OFFER what you'd like, I have no issues w/ that. It's just that when it's taken , at the point of a gun, that I then have an issue.

The rest of Kwickie's post is meaningless troll garbage, and not even worthy of a reply.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, October 7, 2011 9:47 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Niki, Six's basic philosophy is pretty much in line with Rappy's.

"I got mine; FUCK YOU!"

Yeah, Mike, I pretty much got that. It continues to blow my mind that so many think that way, tho'. It's pretty clear from what he writes that he thinks I should sit back and have the same attitude. It would never occur to me to do so.

I have a friend I met on a mental health website over ten years ago. She got really screwed; her husband was a drunk and in leaving him, she had a really bad car accident which left her in hospital for a long, long time, with major surgeries on several places in her body. The first surgeon screwed up her hip surgery; he didn't even get the PIN in the socket! After trying to work (not knowing what was wrong) and being unable to stand all day at a cashier's job, she went to another surgeon, who found the problems. He re-did the surgery, and soon after that the PLATE BROKE--not his fault, just "shit happens". But they then told her that further surgery at her age (she's 53) would weaken the bone and the hip would probably re-break, so she lives with it.

Although she cared for her mother for several years up until her death and put a lot of money into fixing up the house, her sister screwed her out of it after her mother's death. She had divorced the husband, so was left with no home and, having used up some of her 401K to fix it up, was forced to use up the rest of it to survive. She was living with one of her sons, who then said they needed the room because they were planning to have another child.

Choey could find no work she could do with her bad hip, and her disability wasn't enough to afford anywhere to live where she could take her dog. She was considering having Kiowa, her dog, put down because she couldn't be certain if she found her another home that the dog would be okay (Kiowa is totally and completely bonded to her, I'd have worried about the same). She had a friend who had a parrot and with whom she felt safe leaving her two much-loved parrots. I couldn't conceive of putting one of my dogs down in such a situation, so I convinced her to move out here; we have a basement room we had made into a bedroom when my mother came to live with us (whom both Jim and I hate, but whom we cared for until her death), and she moved in there.

She's been with us for over four years. She helps immensely around the house, and insists on paying $100 a month rent, tho' her son got her a cell phone and she doesn't use anything like that much utilities or anything else. Out of her $600 a month disability (!) she buys mostly her own food, cooks for us sometimes, joins us for dinner when I cook, insists on paying gas when she uses the car. She paints and sells on e-bay as a small addition to her disability, but I don't know how she'll ever get a job. There are other injuries which will never heal and she lives with a lot of pain every day, but never fails to walk daily, because if she didn't the hip would totally seize up. I don't know how she does it, but I admire her greatly.

This is a woman who worked her entire life, even through having two sons, put away money, was extremly responsible and ended up in this situation through no fault of her own. This is the kind of person Six would throw out with the trash. She has enhanced both Jim's and my life immensely, does things for me that I can no longer do myself because of my OWN physical problems, and is one of the best friends I've ever known. I'd give her the shirt off my back any time she wanted it, but she'd never ask for it, she's the kind of person who'd die first, and it was damned hard to convince her to move out here.

In other words, this is a person of quality, a responsible person and a very giving one who was a professional all her life, did everything a responsible person is supposed to do, and ended up with nothing through no fault of her own. Oh, she's also paying off child support because when they divorced she was making a good wage which he was living off. The kids are long grown, but she's still eeking out what she can every month to pay off the bill.

Yeah, we should trash these people, sure. 6ix and his ilk will never get it in a lifetime; Choey has ENHANCED our lives and taken as little as humanly possible from us, constantly (to the point of embarrassment) thanking us for rescuing her; her company is a joy and we take our dogs out together, watch movies together and have fun together. They'll never get that, I understand. They have my pity.

What 6ix doesn't get, also, is that I'm not "bitching" and there's no "stress". I speak up for things because I believe in them. My fellow humans are my brothers and sisters; if it's in my power to help, I will, and I get far more in return. I'm disgusted by the bullshit that they are freeloaders and bums, I KNOW that "but for fortune" I could have ended up in their place, and while we don't have much, we get by, for which I'm GRATEFUL, not snotty. The idea that taxes are taken "at the point of a gun" is so assinine it makes me sneer; we are one country, and the Founding Fathers intended for the government to be responsible in part for the WELFARE OF ALL. Raptor, 6ix, Wulf, Geezer, would seemingly be quite happy in Ayn Rand's world, but I don't think it would be quite what they think it would, and they're all paupers in their way far more than we are or ever could be.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, October 7, 2011 11:00 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Niki, Six's basic philosophy is pretty much in line with Rappy's.

"I got mine; FUCK YOU!" Oh, and if you get sick, then fuck you in both ears. If you get blown up by terrorists, you clearly made the wrong choices in life. If they see someone starving to death, their "solution" is to tease that person with a sandwich. If they see a sick person, they'll laugh at that person for being weak.

I'm actually surprised they both don't go out and celebrate 9/11 every year as that day when the government got downsized by a bunch of foreigners.

Odd how I got tossed into the mix here. Nothing of what you claim has any semblance of my positions.

" I got mine... ". Well, yes, I do have mine. I worked for it, ergo, it is mine, to do with as I see fit. Sames goes for you, and everyone else. Not real sure how that's an issue, for anyone.

If you get sick, same as if I get sick. Neither one of us are DUE a portion of someone else's life, simply because it makes someone else feel good about themselves. But feel free to OFFER what you'd like, I have no issues w/ that. It's just that when it's taken , at the point of a gun, that I then have an issue.

Lets all pay attention to how someone can be a complete hypocrite in under seven sentences...

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Nothing of what you claim has any semblance of my positions.

" I got mine... ". Well, yes, I do have mine. I worked for it, ergo, it is mine, to do with as I see fit. Sames goes for you, and everyone else. Not real sure how that's an issue, for anyone.

No you don't owe any single person anything, you and everyone else owes society.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 7, 2011 11:09 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... the Founding Fathers intended for the government to be responsible in part for the WELFARE OF ALL."

Also, the FF weren't against taxation. Their issue was it was when it was imposed > 'without representation' <.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Friday, October 7, 2011 11:17 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, Kiki, both the Tea Party and everyone who thinks like them seems to conveniently forget that fact as quickly as they hear it. Interesting, that...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, October 7, 2011 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Niki, Six's basic philosophy is pretty much in line with Rappy's.

"I got mine; FUCK YOU!" Oh, and if you get sick, then fuck you in both ears. If you get blown up by terrorists, you clearly made the wrong choices in life. If they see someone starving to death, their "solution" is to tease that person with a sandwich. If they see a sick person, they'll laugh at that person for being weak.

Wow... that's a little unfair, I think....

I spent 6 months of my unemployment time trying to work with my alcoholic brother who had a brain hemmorage when he was 6 years old try to make it on his own. He's angry and bitter at the world and after quitting a job that fell in his lap he's hit rock bottom now and currently living with my dad who is actually making great strides helping him to hopefully become a self sufficient man someday. Unfortunately, I couldn't tell him not to drink or smoke, because I drank and smoked. Now that he has nothing and is living at my Dad's as an alternative to blowing guys on the street for his next booze cruise, my old man has him off the smokes and beer and is trying to teach him how to live on his own without f'ing everything up for himself again next time.

I also spent a lot of time helping my Mom and Step-Dad's business. For months I lived at their place with free room and board and I spent that time A) looking for a house in the right market/property tax bracket, B) helping the family business, and C) doing all sorts of rehab work on their home that they're just too old to do at their age. I also did all of their yard work and repainted their porch and the siding that had been sun damaged while I was there.

Also, I mentioned in my last post that I'm willing to help my friend out financially, if he's willing to come here and help me with some of the work I need to do on my house in his free time. He's always telling me how his dad's remodeling business is hurting these days and he can't rely on his dad for extra income anymore. I know my friend would love to be in a position to just come over here and help me out without being paid, but he needs money and I'd be happy to help him out if he helps me out.

Let me make it VERY clear........

I don't laugh at the unfortunate.

I laugh at those who are unfortunate because they are STUPID.

I laugh at those who are unfortunate today because they WERE stupid and just now realize how stupid they have been when times were good.

Obviously they didn't watch Disney cartoons when they were kids.

1) I watched a Disney cartoon with squirrels (non-recognizable characters for the most part) and all the other squirrels made fun of the one squirrel who was packing away acorns in his tree all summer long instead of playing and having a good time. When winter came around, everyone was begging him for food because they didn't do what they needed to do.

2) Scrooge McDuck and his famous saying "Work smart, not hard.

Speaks for itself.....

I'm more than willing to help people out who can also help me out and are actually trying to make a difference in not only their own, but other people's lives. I'm just tired of the "entitled" and the "entitlements" and the millions of people in this country who sit back and do nothing and believe that they are owed something for their lethargy.

If you really want to make a difference, volunteer, or if you have some cash on hand help those you care about who need money by paying them for some honest labor.

But please.....

STOP VOTING TO TAKE MY MONEY AWAY FROM ME VIA TAXES!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
What 6ix doesn't get, also, is that I'm not "bitching" and there's no "stress". I speak up for things because I believe in them. My fellow humans are my brothers and sisters; if it's in my power to help, I will, and I get far more in return. I'm disgusted by the bullshit that they are freeloaders and bums, I KNOW that "but for fortune" I could have ended up in their place, and while we don't have much, we get by, for which I'm GRATEFUL, not snotty. The idea that taxes are taken "at the point of a gun" is so assinine it makes me sneer; we are one country, and the Founding Fathers intended for the government to be responsible in part for the WELFARE OF ALL. Raptor, 6ix, Wulf, Geezer, would seemingly be quite happy in Ayn Rand's world, but I don't think it would be quite what they think it would, and they're all paupers in their way far more than we are or ever could be.

This is just as ridiculous as the other post....

I can't speak for the others mentioned in this post, but I pull my own weight and the weight of several others who are in need in my own family.

You can give me all the sob stories you want about an individual you know who needs money legitimately and I'll throw just as many I know right back at you.

I'm just tired of carrying the dead weight through taxes.

Do you know that last year alone 1% of this country filed for disability because of how bad the job market is?

This means that if my brother, who suffered an aneurysm, brain hemorrhage, and several strokes at six years old and was told he'd never walk or talk again (but did!) will probably have to wait about 2 years before he receives any benefits because Uncle Sam has to sift through all the bullshit claims before getting to him.

Pluuueassseee.....

You KNOW the system is f-ed.

If you want to help people, do it on a local level.

Stop raising my taxes to pay for stupid people who deserve bailouts on an individual level the same way that AIG did.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Friday, October 7, 2011 1:44 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
So 0.016% of the US taxpayers made at least 1% of the total money.

Yes. And pay 9% of the total Federal Individual Income taxes on it.

And come to think of it, there's probably a lot of tax-supported expense these folks don't incur.

Although they pay taxes that support public schools, I doubt too many of them send their kids there.

But they could.

Quote:

Bet they don't used tax-subsidized public transportation much.

But they could.

Quote:

Doubt that they file many Medicare claims.

But they could.

Quote:

Due to their use of limos, they probably pay more in gasoline taxes than most folks.

But they could avoid that, by using public transportation.

If we're going to play the "I don't use this so I shouldn't pay for it" game, I'll play along.

Never in my lifetime has the U.S. military protected me personally from any threat. Yet I've been forced to support this murderous beast for as long as I've been working.

I've never had a fire. Therefore, I should not have to pay tax dollars to equip and train firefighters. Right? Fires are someone else's problem. Specifically, the person whose stuff is on fire.

I don't use the police. Shitcan 'em.

I've never needed a corporate tax rebate. GE got $3 billion dollars back from Uncle Sam last year, and paid $0 in taxes. Fuck 'em - I don't need to pay for that.

Homeland security? Never needed it. Hasn't protected me from shit. Neither has Blackwater. Or the Coast Guard.

Capital gains tax rates? Never used 'em. Get rid of 'em - capital gains should be taxed the same as all other income. Ditto estate taxes.

What a fun game!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, October 7, 2011 1:53 PM

Quote:
This means that if my brother, who suffered an aneurysm, brain hemorrhage, and several strokes at six years old and was told he'd never walk or talk again (but did!) will probably have to wait about 2 years before he receives any benefits because Uncle Sam has to sift through all the bullshit claims before getting to him.

Why do you assume that everyone else's claims are "bullshit", any more than your brother's would be "bullshit"?

And isn't your brother that very "dead weight" you speak of, whom you don't want to carry via taxation? I mean, you imply that he's applied for disability, but if he hasn't worked and paid into the system, isn't he leeching off society? That *IS* how you see it, isn't it?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, October 7, 2011 2:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

No you don't owe any single person anything, you and everyone else owes society.

Huh?

That doesn't even make any sense. What are you even trying to say here ?

How is that, or what I said, in the least bit hypocritical ? It starts off with, " I got mine ", but it ends there. There's no "FUCK YOU" nonsense that Kwickie tries to claim.

About the only thing I or anyone owes to society is to not be a burden on society, when we're mentally and physically capable of working and taking care of ourselves.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, October 7, 2011 2:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
This means that if my brother, who suffered an aneurysm, brain hemorrhage, and several strokes at six years old and was told he'd never walk or talk again (but did!) will probably have to wait about 2 years before he receives any benefits because Uncle Sam has to sift through all the bullshit claims before getting to him.

Why do you assume that everyone else's claims are "bullshit", any more than your brother's would be "bullshit"?

And isn't your brother that very "dead weight" you speak of, whom you don't want to carry via taxation? I mean, you imply that he's applied for disability, but if he hasn't worked and paid into the system, isn't he leeching off society? That *IS* how you see it, isn't it?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

I have an ex-girlfriend who is married to another dead weight who are both, not only, getting paid to sit around and do nothing because of their depression, but they get extra money because of her previous children (see: not mine). They're both white, and they're both capable of work, and they're despicable.

Don't act like there aren't plenty of people out there taking advantage of the working class.

EDITED TO ADD: In the last 10 years, he has worked jobs. He's worked at goodwill, several grocery stores, and a security firm.

Unfortunately, he's not good with people (like Buster Bluth from Arrested Development) and always sabotages himself at jobs in the end.

F--- .... at least he's trying......

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Friday, October 7, 2011 4:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, comes to it, I don't mind my tax dime feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless - sure, some percentage of em is gonna exploit it maybe, but frankly given the amount of shit they have to put up with, and the inherent pride of an individual, I don't think that percentage is very high, certainly nowhere near what assholes who profit from fucking the poor would have us think.

Nor do I mind financing useful infrastructure like roads, schools, libraries, etc.

What I *DO* mind, is financing imperial aggression, a war machine with an infinate, ravenous appetite, corporate welfare, and a whole lot of alphabet agencies and their budgets both public and secret which shouldn't even exist in a free society...

And compared to the MASSIVE chunk of our budget which is poured down the aforementioned rathole, which pays off in nothing but misery, the amount we spend propping up the poor in this country is the teensyiest, tinyest pittance - one we'd barely even fucking notice were it not for the jealousness of the rapacious fuckers of the war machine having a hissy fit about every penny not financing THEIR imperial aspirations.

Fuck that.

CHOOSE LIFE.

You wanna cut, start cutting the stuff which does nothing but harm, and first on the list is the military-industrial-"intelligence"(misnomer) complex and their unsatiable appetite, like a giant, angry demonic infant which does nothing but eat and eat and eat, and then shit on us as a reward for feeding it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, October 7, 2011 5:29 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Never in my lifetime has the U.S. military protected me personally from any threat.

Proof?

Or more to the point, prove that the U.S. - military or government in general - hasn't protected anyone you care at all about from harm.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, October 7, 2011 6:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Never in my lifetime has the U.S. military protected me personally from any threat.

Proof?

Or more to the point, prove that the U.S. - military or government in general - hasn't protected anyone you care at all about from harm.

1) Prove that they HAVEN'T protected me? Yeah, right after you prove that you no longer rape goats.

2) Anyone I care about at all? That's a long way from what I posted, if you can read what you quoted. They did kill my dad, though, so there's always that.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 4:14 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Never in my lifetime has the U.S. military protected me personally from any threat.

Proof?

Or more to the point, prove that the U.S. - military or government in general - hasn't protected anyone you care at all about from harm.

1) Prove that they HAVEN'T protected me?

Well yeah. You made the statement, you apparently believe it's true. You should have some evidence to support that belief.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 4:17 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

About the only thing I or anyone owes to society is to not be a burden on society, when we're mentally and physically capable of working and taking care of ourselves.

Only if you don't use any of the things society has provided for you, but you do so.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 4:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

About the only thing I or anyone owes to society is to not be a burden on society, when we're mentally and physically capable of working and taking care of ourselves.

Only if you don't use any of the things society has provided for you, but you do so.

Boy, you're so completely brainwashed, I don't know where else to go w/ this one.

ROFLOL!

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 4:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Never in my lifetime has the U.S. military protected me personally from any threat.

Proof?

Or more to the point, prove that the U.S. - military or government in general - hasn't protected anyone you care at all about from harm.

1) Prove that they HAVEN'T protected me?

Well yeah. You made the statement, you apparently believe it's true. You should have some evidence to support that belief.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Okay, I'll play.

1) The U.S. has not been invaded in my lifetime. Ergo, the military has had no need to "defend" me, as is their sole constitutional duty.

2) No nation has declared war on the U.S. in my lifetime and attacked us.

3) Conservatives claim that regulations and bureaucracy do not protect Americans, ergo my government could not possibly have protected me from harm.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 5:13 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

6ix; so you've helped family, and would help one person if he worked for you. Doesn't count. The right says we're SUPPOSED to personally help family, etc., not that we should make the lives of people survivable if they can't do so for themselves. There are, surprisingly, a lot more of them than there are those who take advantage of the system.

I love the way they came up with "entitlements", it's such a perfect buzz word. Yeah, I'm entitled to disability (which will turn into Social Security when I reach that age); I PAID INTO IT. It's a contract I made with the government, they OWE me, it's not that I'm entitled to it just 'cuz I live here or something, it's because I paid my own money IN all my lifetime.

"What Frem said"...

Quote:
sure, some percentage of em is gonna exploit it maybe, but frankly given the amount of shit they have to put up with, and the inherent pride of an individual, I don't think that percentage is very high, certainly nowhere near what assholes who profit from fucking the poor would have us think.

I'd far rather have my taxes go for the things that help other Americans than see it go overseas to some other country and have our citizens killed in the process.

I did volunteer; mostly for animal rehab because that's where my interests lie, but I also volunteered for something called LITA (Love Is The Answer) where I took my dogs to convalescent homes, etc. Unfortunately they sent me to the wrong place, another time at the wrong time; the organization was so screwed up I gave up. I also cooked a gigantic batch of spaghetti, got french bread from the local bakery, and hauled it all into S.F. to feed those who'd been made homeless by the Loma Prieta quake. Volunteering individually doesn't do nearly as much good as giving money to organizations which can use that money more effectively than I, so I sponsor two kids by Save The Children.

It's too bad that everyone isn't as "smart" and together as you are; me, I don't blame those who lost their jobs because of the economy, lost tons of their savings, 401K or retirement because of what Wall Street an the banks did to us. I don't figure I'm that much "smarter" than the average bear, so they're people just like me who had some bad breaks. And again, I believe those who abuse the system are in the minority, so I don't believe in throwing out the baby with the bath water. Sure, it needs overhaul, desperately, but I don't believe in "I did everything right and it worked out for me, so screw you if you did everything right and got screwed anyway".

Shouldn't take your brother two years; I got State Disability the day I applied, and later SSDI within a month. I don't believe it's up to YOU to judge who should get assistance and who shouldn't. If you mean what you say and it bothers you so much, work to improve the system, don't bitch and moan about how it's screwed up.

Quote:
Unfortunately, he's not good with people (like Buster Bluth from Arrested Development) and always sabotages himself at jobs in the end.

F--- .... at least he's trying......

That's an apparent dichotomy, because you're judging those on disability or unemployment as being "stupid", so how is he different? I understand you're griping about those who abuse the system, but wanting to do away with the system because of them would mean doing away with the system that you hope to have help your brother. Again: if it bothers you to this extent, fix it, don't destroy it for everyone.

We could go back and forth forever about WHO the safety nets protect and whether they deserve it or not, and you can bitch and moan all day about people who disabuse the system; the question is should we have the system or not, the way you phrase it. Either we keep the system and let the government pay back the money it took via contract with us, and if it bothers us take action to fix it, or we toss the whole thing out. If the latter, hoo, boy, watch what happens to the country! With the rate of poverty we have NOW, even with safety nets, I can't even imagine what this place would look like if we took it all away!

I'll tell you what aspect of the government, which is a freebie to those who don't even NEED it, I'd like to do away with completely; gimmes to big corporations who are making tons of money but want more, more, MORE! Loopholes for them and the wealthy who truly DO believe "I've got mine, fuck you!" Start with those; take away some of the profit from those who don't even NEED it; THEN we can talk about those who do.

Geezer,

Quote:
prove that the U.S. - military or government in general - hasn't protected anyone you care at all about from harm.

That's a very, very poor statement. Did Vietnam threaten us? Did Iraq? Did Afghanistan? A few PEOPLE in Afghanistan hurt us, but we "invaded" the entire country. Neither I nor anyone I care about has ever been protected by our military--in fact some I cared about very much were KILLED fighting wars our government sent them on, so actually quite the reverse.

We don't have to prove the military has never protected us; in our lifetimes, the only things the military has done is go overseas to invade other countries, countries who were literally incapable of harming us. They didn't even "protect" us from 9/11, or any of the other terrorist destruction that's happened here. How you can think they HAVE is what's weird, and the onus should be on YOU to provide proof they have, given that nobody IN this country has been threatened in such a way that the military protected them.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 5:20 AM

Quote:
Posted by Niki:

We don't have to prove the military has never protected us; in our lifetimes, the only things the military has done is go overseas to invade other countries, countries who were literally incapable of harming us. They didn't even "protect" us from 9/11, or any of the other terrorist destruction that's happened here. How you can think they HAVE is what's weird, and the onus should be on YOU to provide proof they have, given that nobody IN this country has been threatened in such a way that the military protected them.

Exactly. I'm far more threatened by the mighty-whitey-righties around here than I've ever been by any Viet Cong or Taliban. Apparently Geezer thinks our military should invade the GOP in order to protect America from the real enemy!

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 2:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
We could go back and forth forever about WHO the safety nets protect and whether they deserve it or not, and you can bitch and moan all day about people who disabuse the system; the question is should we have the system or not, the way you phrase it.

Though I largely have problems with much of what you posted here (big surprise), I'm going to make my reply short and sweet and simple so it doesn't get lost in the rest of what I would say.

1) My brother had a massive brain hemmorage at 6 years old and after the surgery the doctors said he'd never walk or talk again. My dad volunteered for a layoff when that happened and spent the next 6 months making him work out and do flash cards and all sorts of other things. Growing up, my other brother and I resented him so much for the extreme attention he was getting from our father, but today I'm so happy it was done because he just might still be a vegetable today if it hadn't been done.

Yes! My brother deserves it!!!!

No... I don't know where the line should be drawn, but when you have a kid who shouldn't be alive today who suffered more strokes than Keith Richards when he was only 6 years old, I think debate should be thrown right out the window!

Quote:
Either we keep the system and let the government pay back the money it took via contract with us, and if it bothers us take action to fix it, or we toss the whole thing out. If the latter, hoo, boy, watch what happens to the country! With the rate of poverty we have NOW, even with safety nets, I can't even imagine what this place would look like if we took it all away!

Oh.... so here you want to agree with my post in the other thread, huh?

"hoo, boy!"

Yes, Niki, what would this place look like if they took it all away??????

Tell me

Let me remind you that this is exactly why I said that you better be prepared to take care of you and yours when times get bad.

This IS the FUTURE here!

Once China cuts off our credit, a lot of people you probably know personally will seem a lot more like animals when the government shuts everything down because they're bankrupt.

Good luck!!!!!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 2:37 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Once China cuts off our credit, a lot of people you probably know personally will seem a lot more like animals when the government shuts everything down because they're bankrupt.

That is simple not going to happen. If our economy tanks there's will follow. They need us to buy their goods.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 2:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
That is simple not going to happen. If our economy tanks there's will follow. They need us to buy their goods.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Sure....

I'm sure there has been a few times that people have said something similar....

1) I'll never buy a color TV because it's expensive and it's just a fad.

2) Blockbuster and Hollywood Video CEOs say "This Netflix is just a fad. People love paying top dollar and driving to a store to rent a video."

3) The CEO of Columbia House decided against R&D into internet technology and after iTunes became successful the only people who know what Columbia House is are at least my age or older.

4) General Custer.

5) Personally, I think Jim Henson said it best when he said "Anybody got an aspirin? I think I've got a cold." ~ Dennis Leary

Expect the unexpected brother. Do you think China is just sitting back and jacking off all over their profits? They laugh at us collecively since we have, for years, been giving them (what used to be) very valuable American currency for plastic shit at dollar stores and WalMart and they've been stockpiling gold, silver, iron and copper that was ored from here in the mean time.

Do you really believe, in your gradeschool brainwashed mind, that we'll be on top forever, even if we have nothing at all to offer anyone else??????

Enjoy your Ikea furniture and Sauder shit from WalMart.

What is it, exactly, that we even have to offer the world anymore today??????

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 3:08 PM

Quote:

1) My brother had a massive brain hemmorage at 6 years old and after the surgery the doctors said he'd never walk or talk again. My dad volunteered for a layoff when that happened and spent the next 6 months making him work out and do flash cards and all sorts of other things. Growing up, my other brother and I resented him so much for the extreme attention he was getting from our father, but today I'm so happy it was done because he just might still be a vegetable today if it hadn't been done.

Yes! My brother deserves it!!!!

No... I don't know where the line should be drawn, but when you have a kid who shouldn't be alive today who suffered more strokes than Keith Richards when he was only 6 years old, I think debate should be thrown right out the window!

Not to be too much of a dick about it, and trying to simply be OBJECTIVE, what you're saying is that your brother deserves special treatment that you feel nobody else deserves, simply because you know him personally and know how hard he's had it.

Everybody's got a story, and many of them are sad. But according to you, we should just laugh them off because they're dumb-asses, and leave them to die.

What I can't get my head around is this: If you think it's fine for governments to leave others to die (which, make no mistake, *IS* what you're advocating here), why should your brother be treated any differently?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

1) My brother had a massive brain hemmorage at 6 years old and after the surgery the doctors said he'd never walk or talk again. My dad volunteered for a layoff when that happened and spent the next 6 months making him work out and do flash cards and all sorts of other things. Growing up, my other brother and I resented him so much for the extreme attention he was getting from our father, but today I'm so happy it was done because he just might still be a vegetable today if it hadn't been done.

Yes! My brother deserves it!!!!

No... I don't know where the line should be drawn, but when you have a kid who shouldn't be alive today who suffered more strokes than Keith Richards when he was only 6 years old, I think debate should be thrown right out the window!

Not to be too much of a dick about it, and trying to simply be OBJECTIVE, what you're saying is that your brother deserves special treatment that you feel nobody else deserves, simply because you know him personally and know how hard he's had it.

Everybody's got a story, and many of them are sad. But according to you, we should just laugh them off because they're dumb-asses, and leave them to die.

What I can't get my head around is this: If you think it's fine for governments to leave others to die (which, make no mistake, *IS* what you're advocating here), why should your brother be treated any differently?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

Either you're stupid or being obtuse....

Have you never known people in your own life taking advantage of that system?

For every 1 person who really deserves benefits, there are 5 taking advantage.

Fuck you for not noticing and recognizing....

seriously....

I usually censor my swears, but double fuck you

EDITED TO ADD:

Thankfully, now that my brother has actually hit rock bottom, he's just now come out of an institution and has gotten a government paid psychological evaluation which lead the county to overload him on anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. Hopefully this is enough to finally get him the help he needs. Binder and Binder (on TV) wouldn't even talk to me about him a few years ago. Only one lawyer talked to me about 20 minutes and said he'd be able to get him SS benefits if he had a psych eval.

Seriously.... ignore my brother otherwise....

Don't pay him benefits.....

He'll probably string your sister or your wife up on a supporting beam if they work in close quarters if they cross him if you don't.

Fuck you for judging me and fuck you for judging him.

There are so many NIGGERS (color of our skin not included in that comment) mooching off the system.

Hopefully it's not somebody you know who pays for it when the system fails.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 3:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

1) My brother had a massive brain hemmorage at 6 years old and after the surgery the doctors said he'd never walk or talk again. My dad volunteered for a layoff when that happened and spent the next 6 months making him work out and do flash cards and all sorts of other things. Growing up, my other brother and I resented him so much for the extreme attention he was getting from our father, but today I'm so happy it was done because he just might still be a vegetable today if it hadn't been done.

Yes! My brother deserves it!!!!

No... I don't know where the line should be drawn, but when you have a kid who shouldn't be alive today who suffered more strokes than Keith Richards when he was only 6 years old, I think debate should be thrown right out the window!

Not to be too much of a dick about it, and trying to simply be OBJECTIVE, what you're saying is that your brother deserves special treatment that you feel nobody else deserves, simply because you know him personally and know how hard he's had it.

Everybody's got a story, and many of them are sad. But according to you, we should just laugh them off because they're dumb-asses, and leave them to die.

What I can't get my head around is this: If you think it's fine for governments to leave others to die (which, make no mistake, *IS* what you're advocating here), why should your brother be treated any differently?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

Either you're stupid or being obtuse....

Have you never known people in your own life taking advantage of that system?

For every 1 person who really deserves benefits, there are 5 taking advantage.

Do you have ANY kind of evidence which backs up these ridiculous claims?

Quote:

Fuck you for not noticing and recognizing....

seriously....

I usually censor my swears, but double fuck you

Why? For being honest and objective, when you clearly can't be?

Quote:

EDITED TO ADD:

Thankfully, now that my brother has actually hit rock bottom, he's just now come out of an institution and has gotten a government paid psychological evaluation which lead the county to overload him on anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. Hopefully this is enough to finally get him the help he needs. Binder and Binder (on TV) wouldn't even talk to me about him a few years ago. Only one lawyer talked to me about 20 minutes and said he'd be able to get him SS benefits if he had a psych eval.

Seriously.... ignore my brother otherwise....

Don't pay him benefits.....

He'll probably string your sister or your wife up on a supporting beam if they work in close quarters if they cross him if you don't.

Fuck you for judging me and fuck you for judging him.

Who did I judge?

Look at your own words - look how often you sit in judgment of others. And now you want to be pissed of AT ME about it. You're nothing but another right-wing hypocrite, Jack.

Quote:

There are so many NIGGERS (color of our skin not included in that comment) mooching off the system.

Well aren't you just a bundle of fluffy love...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 3:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

1) My brother had a massive brain hemmorage at 6 years old and after the surgery the doctors said he'd never walk or talk again. My dad volunteered for a layoff when that happened and spent the next 6 months making him work out and do flash cards and all sorts of other things. Growing up, my other brother and I resented him so much for the extreme attention he was getting from our father, but today I'm so happy it was done because he just might still be a vegetable today if it hadn't been done.

Yes! My brother deserves it!!!!

No... I don't know where the line should be drawn, but when you have a kid who shouldn't be alive today who suffered more strokes than Keith Richards when he was only 6 years old, I think debate should be thrown right out the window!

Not to be too much of a dick about it, and trying to simply be OBJECTIVE, what you're saying is that your brother deserves special treatment that you feel nobody else deserves, simply because you know him personally and know how hard he's had it.

Everybody's got a story, and many of them are sad. But according to you, we should just laugh them off because they're dumb-asses, and leave them to die.

What I can't get my head around is this: If you think it's fine for governments to leave others to die (which, make no mistake, *IS* what you're advocating here), why should your brother be treated any differently?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

Either you're stupid or being obtuse....

Have you never known people in your own life taking advantage of that system?

For every 1 person who really deserves benefits, there are 5 taking advantage.

Do you have ANY kind of evidence which backs up these ridiculous claims?

Quote:

Fuck you for not noticing and recognizing....

seriously....

I usually censor my swears, but double fuck you

Why? For being honest and objective, when you clearly can't be?

Quote:

EDITED TO ADD:

Thankfully, now that my brother has actually hit rock bottom, he's just now come out of an institution and has gotten a government paid psychological evaluation which lead the county to overload him on anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. Hopefully this is enough to finally get him the help he needs. Binder and Binder (on TV) wouldn't even talk to me about him a few years ago. Only one lawyer talked to me about 20 minutes and said he'd be able to get him SS benefits if he had a psych eval.

Seriously.... ignore my brother otherwise....

Don't pay him benefits.....

He'll probably string your sister or your wife up on a supporting beam if they work in close quarters if they cross him if you don't.

Fuck you for judging me and fuck you for judging him.

Who did I judge?

Look at your own words - look how often you sit in judgment of others. And now you want to be pissed of AT ME about it. You're nothing but another right-wing hypocrite, Jack.

Quote:

There are so many NIGGERS (color of our skin not included in that comment) mooching off the system.

Well aren't you just a bundle of fluffy love...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

At least you didn't edit my full comment..... I'll give you that.

Still.... fuck you

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 3:46 PM

BTW, you've completely missed the point, as usual, Jack.

What we're trying to make you see is that we want EVERYONE who needs help to get it. Your brother included.

What YOU are arguing is that HE deserves it, but nobody else does. You think that his story is so much more tragic than anyone else's, but that's only because you're so close to it.

It's easy to write people off if you don't know them. You've clearly shown that you are completely willing to do so. I'm trying to make you see that from a distance, ANYONE can look like someone who isn't worthy of our help.

Do people scam the system and take advantage? Sure they do. Some of them then go on to be voted Governor of Florida! But your solution isn't to go after the scammers and criminals; it's to abolish the system. There are corporations that abuse the system, too - shall we do away with corporations? There are churches that abuse the system - shall we do away with religion? There are soldiers that abuse the system - shall we do away with the military?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 4:17 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Guess what, they live here that mean they pay for those things regardless if they use them.

That was my point. They pay taxes to support services they never use. So should they get a rebate?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

No.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Without reading this whole depressing thread, I can tell you that here in Australia you do get a rebate if you are covered by medical insurance and your income is over a certain level, otherwise you are hit with an extra tax to cover hospital benefits.

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Saturday, October 8, 2011 4:29 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm just tired of carrying the dead weight through taxes.

Do you know that last year alone 1% of this country filed for disability because of how bad the job market is?

This means that if my brother, who suffered an aneurysm, brain hemorrhage, and several strokes at six years old and was told he'd never walk or talk again (but did!) will probably have to wait about 2 years before he receives any benefits because Uncle Sam has to sift through all the bullshit claims before getting to him.

Pluuueassseee.....

You KNOW the system is f-ed.

If you want to help people, do it on a local level.

Stop raising my taxes to pay for stupid people who deserve bailouts on an individual level the same way that AIG did.

Stupid people should just be allowed to die, is that right? You'd step over bodies of people in the street and feel okay knowing that their IQ wasn't up to par.

Seriously, your attitude is horrible.

A lot of people screw over the system, all systems. I know plenty of people who use a variety of methods to reduce their tax, morally fradulent if not actually illegal. They still demand their fair share of services, I notice, including banging on about any cut in services or benefits that affect them. But this country is rife with middle class welfare that a conservative government introduced, including funding for PRIVATE SCHOOLS, if you can believe it.

I also know of a lot of people who screw over their employees, who do dodgy, poor quality work, who do morally dubious things in order to make money. I know of a lot of contractors making a lot of money out of government contracts.

A lot of people screw over the system(s) including some people who misuse welfare. Should you try to minimise the amount of welfare fraud that takes place - of course! Should you remove welfare because some people misuse it, hell no.

America traditionally has been the worlds wealthiest country, a place where innovative ideas have flourished and great achievements have been made. It's also had a reputation as being a bad place to be less fortunate, unwell, out of work.

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 5:19 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Excellent, Magons, and a point I'd forgotten. For every welfare fraud, there are plenty of corporations and wealthy people who abuse the system just as badly, for far more money! If the idea is to go after fraud, let's go after ALL of it, not just those who game the system to survive.

Would be neat if someone would look up how much those people get from the government and contrast it with how much the people who game the system on the other end get. I'll bet dollars to donuts the wealthy and corporate interests make off with FAR more of "our tax dollars" than the poor or middle class who game the system. Let's talk about BOTH, because both affect US. I know what's coming; the rich who get SSI and Medicare despite not needing it DESERVE it, 6ix will say...they worked for it, etc., whereas those who are getting welfare are stupid and bought into the idea of getting rich without realizing the bubble would burst and they'd lose everything, right? I don't buy it.

And yes,

Quote:
For every 1 person who really deserves benefits, there are 5 taking advantage.

requires PROOF from some valid source; otherwise, it's just what you believe and has nothing to do with reality.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:25 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
What we're trying to make you see is that we want EVERYONE who needs help to get it. Your brother included.

I think the point he is trying to make is regarding the people the "mooch" off the system. Perfectly able bodies, and souls that put more work into beating the system, than working for a living.
I have my share of neighbors that do so. It doesn't bother me much anymore, because every time I see them BBQ ing and spending morning noon and night in folding chairs in front of their garage I realize they have absolutely no structure. Without structure life becomes boring. These poor souls are in agony begging for something to keep them occupied. A little work would handle that(even yard work around their house) but when they actually choose to be lazy, then boredom is sure to follow. Note: These people are mid 30's.
They have many children(4) and it looks like the lazy man's wife is pregnant again.....but here is the kicker:
In Michigan, Snyder killed Welfare for those that have been on it for more than four years. Looks like their luck has run out, and they will be forced to live an honest life. Yes, they will work to put food on the table and pay utilities. And having 5 children wasn't the wisest thing to do to get more welfare money. Now those meal tickets are going to become their hindrance.

----------------------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:36 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Why are you so pissed of about small-change pikers, and not so pissed off about the rich people who are ripping off working Americans to the tune of 10s of trillions of dollars a year?

I mean really, where's you sense of proportion?

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Why are you so pissed of about small-change pikers, and not so pissed off about the rich people who are ripping off working Americans to the tune of 10s of trillions of dollars a year?

I mean really, where's you sense of proportion?

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

Indeed. Wall Street execs gamed the system to take TRILLIONS out of this country, and I have yet to see a single one of them in jail.

Florida Governor Rick Scott ran a company that bilked Medicare out of BILLIONS - so much money that they were able to pay a $1.7 BILLION DOLLAR FINE, and still leave him a very rich man.

The right is walking around in a room filled waist-high with $100 bills, kicking them out of the way because they want to find that dime they think someone stole from them.

They want to punish ALL the poor and needy for the misdeeds of a few, and they say that's perfectly acceptable behavior, yet they cry "UNFAIR!" if you merely suggest that maybe we should treat millionaires and billionaires in anything approaching the same fashion. If a few are shown to be pikers and grifters, then shouldn't all of them have to pay the consequences?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
What we're trying to make you see is that we want EVERYONE who needs help to get it. Your brother included.

I think the point he is trying to make is regarding the people the "mooch" off the system. Perfectly able bodies, and souls that put more work into beating the system, than working for a living.

So go after THEM. Rather than throw out the whole system, why not go after the lawbreakers?

Or have you just now realized that if you do away with regulations, you're actually making it EASIER to scam the system?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 9:56 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So go after THEM. Rather than throw out the whole system, why not go after the lawbreakers?

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what needs to be done. It is much of the lazy attitude by scammers that gum up the works...and cost the state many millions of dollars.

Here is a perfect example:

My friend works at the Gap, she is a manager there.
She said a girl(probably late 20's) comes into the store, and asks if she can sign a paper from the unemployment offices that proves she is looking for employment. My friend said "sure, no problem". She signs the sheet, and tells the girl she will grab an applications for her. The girl in turn says "I don't want no application". My friend is perplexed by this and asks her "But I thought you were looking for a job?"
The girl walks away mumbling something under her breath, and she did hear the word "bitch" in the mumble.

So the girl will most likely get her unemployment extended, for the simple reason of being a worthless, depressed individual. Rather than try her hand at actually working.
These things make me sad.

----------------------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 10:02 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Why are you so pissed of about small-change pikers, and not so pissed off about the rich people who are ripping off working Americans to the tune of 10s of trillions of dollars a year?

I mean really, where's you sense of proportion?

BEcause, it's the small change pikers that we can do something about.....The rich will never be held accountable for fixing our financial fiasco. In a sense we are powerless to change that, so better to not even think about it.

----------------------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Why are you so pissed of about small-change pikers, and not so pissed off about the rich people who are ripping off working Americans to the tune of 10s of trillions of dollars a year?

I mean really, where's you sense of proportion?

BEcause, it's the small change pikers that we can do something about.....The rich will never be held accountable for fixing our financial fiasco. In a sense we are powerless to change that, so better to not even think about it.

This is analogous to dropping all the murder cases so we can concentrate on jaywalkers.

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 1:19 PM

Here's the BOTTOM LINE, people....

YES, there are some people who diserve to be on "welfare" of some type.

NO, most people recieving benefits don't deserve them.

FACT 1: Those who take advantage of the system are facilitating the destruction of this system we all agree should exist for people who REALLY need it.

FACT 2: Our 13 Trillion Dollar debt is doing nothing but rising. Yes, illegal wars and other major factors are at play here, and Obama has dropped the ball on a lot of those issues now that Bush is out, but all sorts of abused welfare from people who are too lazy to work to illegal immigrants scamming the system and getting free education and health care is a HUGE factor.

FACT 3: One of the 3 credit bureaus actually downgraded the US credit rating in the last few months.

FACT 4: There WILL come a day when China is a full fledged super power and their dependence on us will be a non issue.

FACT 5: When the printing presses stop, we're all screwed.

Taxes are too high on everything now as it is. They will only get higher as our completely unpayable national debt continues to rise.

Better to cut back drastically on these programs and make sure the truly needy get them, rather than lose it all for everyone 10 years from now.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 1:29 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
That is simple not going to happen. If our economy tanks there's will follow. They need us to buy their goods.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Sure....

I'm sure there has been a few times that people have said something similar....

1) I'll never buy a color TV because it's expensive and it's just a fad.

2) Blockbuster and Hollywood Video CEOs say "This Netflix is just a fad. People love paying top dollar and driving to a store to rent a video."

3) The CEO of Columbia House decided against R&D into internet technology and after iTunes became successful the only people who know what Columbia House is are at least my age or older.

4) General Custer.

5) Personally, I think Jim Henson said it best when he said "Anybody got an aspirin? I think I've got a cold." ~ Dennis Leary

Expect the unexpected brother. Do you think China is just sitting back and jacking off all over their profits? They laugh at us collecively since we have, for years, been giving them (what used to be) very valuable American currency for plastic shit at dollar stores and WalMart and they've been stockpiling gold, silver, iron and copper that was ored from here in the mean time.

Do you really believe, in your gradeschool brainwashed mind, that we'll be on top forever, even if we have nothing at all to offer anyone else??????

Enjoy your Ikea furniture and Sauder shit from WalMart.

What is it, exactly, that we even have to offer the world anymore today??????

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

Lets see, we are still the largest economy in the world. We are still the worlds largest exporter. The dollar is still the worlds currency.

China can stock pile gold, silver and anything else it wants. In the end those are only valuable if people continue to put a value on them. The world economy goes south things will only be worth anything if it can be eaten or used to catch something that can be eaten.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 1:34 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Here's the BOTTOM LINE, people....

YES, there are some people who diserve to be on "welfare" of some type.

NO, most people recieving benefits don't deserve them.

FACT 1: Those who take advantage of the system are facilitating the destruction of this system we all agree should exist for people who REALLY need it.

FACT 2: Our 13 Trillion Dollar debt is doing nothing but rising. Yes, illegal wars and other major factors are at play here, and Obama has dropped the ball on a lot of those issues now that Bush is out, but all sorts of abused welfare from people who are too lazy to work to illegal immigrants scamming the system and getting free education and health care is a HUGE factor.

FACT 3: One of the 3 credit bureaus actually downgraded the US credit rating in the last few months.

FACT 4: There WILL come a day when China is a full fledged super power and their dependence on us will be a non issue.

FACT 5: When the printing presses stop, we're all screwed.

Taxes are too high on everything now as it is. They will only get higher as our completely unpayable national debt continues to rise.

Better to cut back drastically on these programs and make sure the truly needy get them, rather than lose it all for everyone 10 years from now.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

China is a super power. Taxes have been higher in the past. We are not printing more money, and the credit downgrade has not amounted to anything.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 2:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Lets see, we are still the largest economy in the world. We are still the worlds largest exporter. The dollar is still the worlds currency.

China can stock pile gold, silver and anything else it wants. In the end those are only valuable if people continue to put a value on them. The world economy goes south things will only be worth anything if it can be eaten or used to catch something that can be eaten.

Let's see.... We are still the largest economy in the world because nations who are good with their money like China haven't called their debt in yet.

The dollar is still the world's currency because nations who are good with their money like China enjoy deflating and inflating their own currency when it suits them because they are powerful enough to rock our currency when they do so.

Oh yeah.... People will ALWAYS put value on finite resources like silver and gold. Sure... when the "end of days" comes, most people will be more concerned about food since those resources will be completely unattainable, but the top 1 to 10% will place a very high value on them while they're shuffling the rest of us around like pawns in their sick game of world chess.

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
China is a super power. Taxes have been higher in the past. We are not printing more money, and the credit downgrade has not amounted to anything.

Yes... China is a super power. Indeed.

I don't think people here either understand that, or understand the ramifications of that.

Yes... we are constantly printing more money. And the scary thing is that our money isn't even backed up on the paper it's printed on since a majority of it is simply 1's and 0's on the internet.

And, maybe the downgrade doesn't mean anything yet, but who are you kidding?

Talk about hubris.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 2:48 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Let's see.... We are still the largest economy in the world because nations who are good with their money like China haven't called their debt in yet.

The dollar is still the world's currency because nations who are good with their money like China enjoy deflating and inflating their own currency when it suits them because they are powerful enough to rock our currency when they do so.

Good with there money...really?

http://the-diplomat.com/2011/07/05/china%E2%80%99s-ticking-debt-bomb/

If you calculate debt to GDP for China the way it is for the US and everyone else China's debt to GDP ratio is around 80%. Much higher then the US.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Oh yeah.... People will ALWAYS put value on finite resources like silver and gold. Sure... when the "end of days" comes, most people will be more concerned about food since those resources will be completely unattainable, but the top 1 to 10% will place a very high value on them while they're shuffling the rest of us around like pawns in their sick game of world chess.

The top 1% to 10% had better worry about things like Iron, lead and saltpeter when the end comes.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Yes... China is a super power. Indeed.

I don't think people here either understand that, or understand the ramifications of that.

Yes... we are constantly printing more money. And the scary thing is that our money isn't even backed up on the paper it's printed on since a majority of it is simply 1's and 0's on the internet.

And, maybe the downgrade doesn't mean anything yet, but who are you kidding?

Talk about hubris.....

We are printing new money to replace old money. Not adding money. No one backs their money to resources anymore. It is a fiat currency.

What has the downgrade caused?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Let's see.... We are still the largest economy in the world because nations who are good with their money like China haven't called their debt in yet.

The dollar is still the world's currency because nations who are good with their money like China enjoy deflating and inflating their own currency when it suits them because they are powerful enough to rock our currency when they do so.

Good with there money...really?

http://the-diplomat.com/2011/07/05/china%E2%80%99s-ticking-debt-bomb/

If you calculate debt to GDP for China the way it is for the US and everyone else China's debt to GDP ratio is around 80%. Much higher then the US.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Oh yeah.... People will ALWAYS put value on finite resources like silver and gold. Sure... when the "end of days" comes, most people will be more concerned about food since those resources will be completely unattainable, but the top 1 to 10% will place a very high value on them while they're shuffling the rest of us around like pawns in their sick game of world chess.

The top 1% to 10% had better worry about things like Iron, lead and saltpeter when the end comes.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Yes... China is a super power. Indeed.

I don't think people here either understand that, or understand the ramifications of that.

Yes... we are constantly printing more money. And the scary thing is that our money isn't even backed up on the paper it's printed on since a majority of it is simply 1's and 0's on the internet.

And, maybe the downgrade doesn't mean anything yet, but who are you kidding?

Talk about hubris.....

We are printing new money to replace old money. Not adding money. No one backs their money to resources anymore. It is a fiat currency.

What has the downgrade caused?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Please man....... In the last 10-12 years we've seen gas prices normalize at $2.50 a gallon more than they were back then.

Because of that, everything costs more today.

In the mean time, we've all been having more kids than the generation before and welcoming illegals with open arms.

Hell... I remember driving to Indiana when I was 17 because I could get gas there for 78 cents a gallon and buy smokes for 14 bucks a carton.

I feel like an old man when I say that.

Regardless of what the media says, inflation has been much higher than normal in the last decade, and it will likely only increase unless some serious changes are made.

The only way to keep the country running, giving these HUGE changes, is by printing way more money.

I don't have any hard evidence of this because I'm sure those figures don't even exist to the public.

I remember when I first had an ATM card in my late teens and getting old beat up 20 dollar bills when I took money out. Now it seems that every time I go to the ATM I get brand spakin' new bills every time. Most of them aren't even green anymore.

Monopoly money, anyone?

When there is an ever increasing population and a need to spread that money to others to keep people afloat and the economy going, ESPECIALLY since we have a fiat currency, there is a strong need to print more money than we burn every year.

Consider it the "hidden tax" that nobody ever talks about.

If they admit to inflation of on or about 4% than there is at least 4% more paper currency every year. My guess is that there's been at least three times that much more paper currency created every year in the last 5 years.

Consider every dollar you have saved as being like stock in the market that has had a split every year of at least 4% and you don't get the equivalent of the split after the fact, let alone any dividends..... any measly interest you're making in the bank doesn't even compare to the inflation rate... so any way you look at it you lose.

That's why I got myself into a house and I'm working 60 hours a week fixing it up until I need to get a job. Even though I bought it at about 1/3 of the selling price 7 years ago, I have no illusion that I'll make a bundle selling it someday.

I just want to make it a place I love to live and because of the cheap property taxes here, I figure I'll be making about 6-7 hundred bucks a month living here when I get another good job because I don't have to pay rent to somebody else or pay a mortgage.

But.... with Eminent Domain being a factor, I'm not living the illusion that this property is really mine. I know our good 'ol Unkle Sam could take it out from under me without any real reason at any time.....

It's all a crap shoot.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Sunday, October 9, 2011 8:42 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'm glad that SixString cares about his family. I think I relate to people when they talk about their families, the people they love and care about. So I might have an easier time relating to Six now. I've never seen Raptor talk about people he cares about, family or otherwise, so I have a hard time relating to him.

Six, I hope that now things will start improving for your brother, hopefully the ball is rolling in that direction now after all this recent difficulty he's been going through. I really really hope he can stay off the excessive alcohol and all the street drugs, they only make brain differences more intensive, at least in the majority of cases.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 10, 2011 3:05 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Please man....... In the last 10-12 years we've seen gas prices normalize at $2.50 a gallon more than they were back then.

Because of that, everything costs more today.

In the mean time, we've all been having more kids than the generation before and welcoming illegals with open arms.

Hell... I remember driving to Indiana when I was 17 because I could get gas there for 78 cents a gallon and buy smokes for 14 bucks a carton.

I feel like an old man when I say that.

Regardless of what the media says, inflation has been much higher than normal in the last decade, and it will likely only increase unless some serious changes are made.

The only way to keep the country running, giving these HUGE changes, is by printing way more money.

I don't have any hard evidence of this because I'm sure those figures don't even exist to the public.

The price of gas has risen because of increased demand. That is not inflation.
The price of cigarettes has risen because of increased taxes on them, that is not inflation.

So you have no evidence, but it must be true. How does that work again?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, October 10, 2011 3:56 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
most people recieving benefits don't deserve them.

Please show facts, because I do not believe that is true.

You've never answered the question about corporation and the rich who are gouging the system. You want to go after the little guys who are scraping by off the government, but even going after ONE of the big guys would save more than all the little guys put together, I'm guessing.

It's easy to point to those gaming the system on the bottom, they've been made easy prey from the right forever. But all your arguments mean nothing until you care about changing the system for the ones at the TOP, who cost us, I'm guessing, ten times what the guys on the bottom do, and just as fraudulently if you count buying the government to get loopholes, gimmies, etc. that technically "legally" allow them to squirrel away their money and avoid paying THEIR SHARE of taxes. Let's talk about them, then maybe your desire to hunt down the little guys will have merit. As it is, it's pure hypocrisy in my view, just given the comparable amounts alone.

I see it as somewhat akin to the death penalty. It's cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than to execute them, yet people holler and push to keep the death penalty for VISCERAL reasons, things like revenge, belief it's a deterrent (it's not), "I don't want my tax dollars paying for them for life", etc. So too do people holler about welfare fraud, for visceral reasons like anger, and "I don't want my tax collars paying for them for life", while vastly more of our tax dollars are being squandered by corporations and the wealthy by AVOIDING paying their own taxes. Neither one is logical.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, October 10, 2011 4:44 AM