Confused Cain by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Confused Cain

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 06:27
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Monday, October 24, 2011 5:50 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

He's having trouble making sense, it seems to me. And/or he just doesn't "get it".

Quote:
"Although people don't agree with me, I happen to think that it is a personal choice," Cain said about homosexuality in the Wednesday night interview.

When CNN host Piers Morgan said he believed Cain's comments were akin to a gay person telling the candidate that he chose to be black, Cain responded: "You know that's not true. I was born black," adding his race "doesn't wash off."

In that one, I think he just doesn't get it. The idea is that people are BORN GAY, just as he was born Black, yet he's obviously unclear on the argument.

He's even more confusing on abortion. In February he said

Quote:
“If I were president, I would sign legislation that would protect the sanctity of life”

Yet now he says

Quote:
"The government shouldn't be trying to tell people everything to do, especially when it comes to social decisions they have to make."

and that it should be a matter of choice.

That's not just a flip-flop from what he said back in February, because he said the same opposing things within a very short time span: October 23:

Quote:
I believe that abortion should be clearly stated and illegal across this country and I would work to defund Planned Parenthood."

But on October 19:

Quote:
"It gets down to that family," he said in the interview. "And whatever they decide, they decide."

So which is it? Should abortion be illegal, or a choice? I think the man has some difficulty understanding the issues and where he stands on them.

It gets even weirder when he tries to clarify his position by adding

Quote:
Look, abortion should not be legal. That is clear. But if that family makes the decision to break the law, that’s that family’s decision. That’s all I’m trying to say.

What kind of statement is that??? It should be illegal, but if it is, it's the family's decision whether to break the law or not...??? Something about "unclear on the concept" at work here, it seems to me.

Quote:
Quote:
No, it comes down to is, it’s not the government’s role — or anybody else’s role — to make that decision. Secondly, if you look at the statistical incidents, you’re not talking about that big a number. So what I’m saying is, it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make. Not me as president. Not some politician. Not a bureaucrat. It gets down to that family. And whatever they decide, they decide. I shouldn’t try to tell them what decision to make for such a sensitive decision.
Big difference between (a) the government shouldn’t tell you what to do about “sensitive” social decisions and (b) the government should tell you what to do by criminalizing one of your options. It’s an odd note for a man in his position to sound. Rarely do would-be presidents acknowledge lawbreaking as an option in any context, however disapprovingly. (Klein, applying Cain’s logic, goofs, “Theft should not be legal, but if a family decides they have to steal, that’s their decision.”) And rarely do pro-lifers suggest that criminal penalties might not be much of a deterrent. http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/21/cain-clarifies-again-abortion-sh
ouldnt-be-legal-but-some-families-might-decide-to-break-the-law-anyway/

If he twists himself much further, he's going to end up a pretzel!

I'm getting the impression this man has difficulty with complex issues; he can say the proper buzz words, but he doesn't understand "politispeak" and that there are things you just don't say out loud, whatever your personal opinion. He seems to be trying to cater to both those who want less government interference yet keep the approval of the anti-abortion crowd. He doesn't seem to grasp that the people he's talking to don't really give a hot damn about government interference, as long as the interference is in areas of which they APPROVE.

And they called Obama a neophite!

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Monday, October 24, 2011 12:44 PM

PENGUIN

That's what happens when you change your views to satisfy the audience you're pandering to.

King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Monday, October 24, 2011 1:21 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think that same sex sex is a choice, but the physicality behind one's body's response to the idea isn't. Such physicality malfunctions can be innate or can occur through conditioning during one's growing up years. I wish someone would do a study on it so we could understand that better and how that happens, but I don't think anyone ever will.

When one tries to be all things to all people then one gets mixed up and forgets what one said to whom and then we get a candidate who seems to "flipflop".

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 24, 2011 1:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

How many dicks did Cain have to suck before he figured out he was straight? When did he make that choice?

Riona, when did you choose YOUR sexuality? Did you try both sexes before choosing?

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Monday, October 24, 2011 2:01 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm kind of equally offended by both the last two posts. Riona, do you KNOW any gay people, that you can judge them so easily? I do, and have, numerous ones, and some were no different from anyone else I knew. I'm bisexual; so what "malfunction" or "conditioning" do you think caused that? I was brought up totally hetero by hetero parents, didn't even know I was bisexual until a few years ago, mostly because nobody ASKED.

I'm guessing what you're saying is that one can be born with a "malfunction" that makes one attracted to the same sex, but ACTING on it is a "choice". In other words, if one is unfortunate enough to be born with that "malfunction", one shouldn't have sex, period. Or at least unless they can somehow force themselves to have proper, heterosexual sex.

I'm attracted sexually to both males and femals. In other words, I'm attracted to the PERSON, not the sex. It's a totally physical response, and yes, in my case it IS a choice. But if I were homosexual, it wouoldn't BE a "choice", because for them, it's just not possible to FEEL what one needs to feel for the opposite sex. I've been married for over 35 years and never had any problem with hetero sex. Once I'd experienced sex with another woman, I'd certainly choose that in future, if I had a choice. But I don't see any of it as a "malfunction".

I worked for three lawyers; one was a homosexual, another a lesbian. You'd never know that in a million years if someone didn't tell you, so excuse me if on their behalf I am offended. Both were perfectly normal, bright people who were extremely good at their profession; the ONLY difference between them and you was that their sexual orientation was different. Oh, and they weren't ultra-religious, that too.

I try very hard to respect your religion; I wish you could make an equal attempt to show respect to those whose sexuality is different from yours. I repeat: How many homosexual friends have you had, that you can judge them so easily as "malfunctioning" or "conditioned"??

Why do we need a study, I might ask. I firmly believe it's nobody's business who someone has sex with, and I have no desire to study them like lab rats to try and figure out some kind of malfunction or conditioning...what if they did very in-depth studies and found NEITHER? Would that make them any more acceptable to you, or would you just be convinced there was some kind of malfunction, they just didn't find it.

Equally I don't much care for your remark Mike, tho' I get your point. I'm just really pissed off at the "conditioning" and "malfunction" thing, and I don't think Riona knows very many homosexuals, or knows them very well, yet like Cain is quite happy to label it a choice. That's offensive to me. [/rant]

Okay, that touched a sore spot. I DESPISE bigotry in any form, especially ignorant bigotry, be it race, gender, sexual orientation, religion or whatever. I'll shut up now.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, October 24, 2011 2:04 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
I think that same sex sex is a choice, but the physicality behind one's body's response to the idea isn't. Such physicality malfunctions can be innate or can occur through conditioning during one's growing up years. I wish someone would do a study on it so we could understand that better and how that happens, but I don't think anyone ever will.

Actually there've been lots of studies. It was assumed for years that homosexuality was a psychiatric disorder. But there was never any evidence for that position, nor for the position that homosexuality comes from upbringing or other childhood experiences. Instead several biological factors have been identified including genes (though no single 'gay gene'), and chemical conditions/phenomena in the mother's uterus.

Wikipedia has a good section on what are thought to be the causes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Etiology

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, October 24, 2011 2:07 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

In other words, it's like being born a redhead, as opposed to being born bipolar--which IS a malfunction--or being born Black, which many consider "less than" to this day. I guess that could be considered a malfuntion too, couldn't it.

Time to get off the computer, smoke's starting to come out of my ears...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, October 24, 2011 2:14 PM

KWICKO

NIki, if my post was offensive to you, I apologize, but I fully intended it to be quite blunt to any idiot who thinks their sexuality is a choice.

If people think that sexuality is a choice FOR GAY PEOPLE, that rather implies that they themselves also made a conscious choice at some point.

I simply ask them how many same-sex experiences they had before they made the decision to be straight. I mean, if it IS a choice, then obviously it's one we all have to make, right? And if they're so sure it's a choice, surely they'd want to be fully informed themselves before choosing, wouldn't they?

Me, I never had to try a dude to figure out I love my wife. Had to try quite a few women before I found her, though. Or should I say, "Got to"?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 24, 2011 2:18 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
In other words, it's like being born a redhead, as opposed to being born bipolar--which IS a malfunction--or being born Black, which many consider "less than" to this day. I guess that could be considered a malfuntion too, couldn't it.

Time to get off the computer, smoke's starting to come out of my ears...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

Don't let it get to you. You've got it right.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 24, 2011 2:35 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

The only thing that I found offensive Mike was the dick sucking. But like I said, I got it.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, October 24, 2011 5:40 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I was born with lots of "malfunctions", things that don't work the common way in my body. They aren't good persay, they aren't evil, they just are. But they technically are malfunctions and its just a neutral statement.

Yeah I've had gay friends and it doesn't really come up in our friendship very often, how their bodies react and what they choose to do with that aren't my business, nor does it affect our friendship. I hear often enough that someone was always that way in their body, that they noticed it on their own without influence once they hit the age of checking folk out so to speak. I've also heard from many that they ended up in a situation where they were influenced by a physical experience, concentual or not, with someone and their body molded that way as a result of that being their first sexual encounter. My friend D went with boys through middle school until ninth grade when a girl had a major crush on her. This girl had been hurt by her father when she was little and wasn't interested at all in boys and men because it was scary for her to think of being with them. So she started asking D to date her. D thought about it, figured she wasn't really interested in that but the girl wanted it so much and so forth. So she said yes, they went together, had sex (ages 14, D and 15, the other girl) and continued on together for a while. After they broke up she fancied female folk because her body had had that experience so that's what it reacted to. She tried being with men later but it didn't evoke the physical response that being with women had come to evoke.

And some people have just said that their bodies are flexible and either will do, both are technically sex after all.

I don't believe that the physicality of it is a choice, I only think that the act of rutting is a choice. And I don't think there's a psychiatric componant to it, never did think that, it was misproven a while back after all.

I'm basing these physicality/nether feelings observations on what I've gleaned from others experiences, I'm not just pulling them out of thin air. I've heard others' experiences and extrapolated from them. Maybe I'll be proven wrong about those things someday, we'll just have to see and I think I'll go read that wikipedia article now and see what it says on the causes because that might be useful.

Quicko, I've never rutted yet so I've had sex with neither thus far. I fancy menfolk, that's who I imagine myself with when I think about it. That's who I hope to be with. I see womenfolk as potential close friends and menfolk as potential mates, though of course I see menfolk as potential friends too, but not on the same level as womenfolk.

I've never been in love, the only people I've really loved that aren't related to me are best friends, three of them that I love very deeply. But never was the idea of being physical with them appealing, it isn't that kind of love.

I'm sorry that this discussion is bothering you so much Niki a chara. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just talking honestly about what I've experienced/how I feel. Note that I haven't brought religeon in to this because it isn't part of this discussion. I never said whether I thought the act was wrong, because that's not what this thread was about. I think we can agree that Quicko's dick sucking comment was uncalled for. And bringing skincolor into this is bizarre. I don't think anyone under the sun (except maybe people I don't want to be friends with at all) thinks that skincolor matters, no matter what their beliefs or experiences are in life. And if you want to be pedantic we could reason that since light skin is the rarest color of all it is the malfunction, if you want to go there.

Shrug.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, October 25, 2011 2:16 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I was born with lots of "malfunctions", things that don't work the common way in my body. They aren't good persay, they aren't evil, they just are. But they technically are malfunctions and its just a neutral statement.

Just because something is not common does not make it a malfunction.

....or let me put it this way, normal people are just people you don't know very well yet.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, October 25, 2011 2:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

He won't be choosing whether abortion is banned or not. This is nothing but an attempt from the Left ( and nut case theorcrats on the Right ) to attack Cain. Like most Americans, Cain doesn't really care for the idea of abortion, for what it truly is, but also understands that it's a very private, personal matter.

For me, I think ( and I've said this previously) that the 1st trimester or so, the mother has the right to do with with HER body what she wants. But after that, save for the life of the mother, I think the choice should be come less and less her own, and more thought to the unborn should be taken into consideration.

Over all, with the state of the country as it is, I don't think abortion should even be an issue brought up in this election cycle. Cain is far from the most anti-abortion candidate out there, and this issue amounts to less than trivial.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 25, 2011 6:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yet another shocking incident where I actually agree with Raptor (the last two paragraphs at least); it's not his STANCE on abortion, it's the dichotomy of it, as well as his other stances. At this time in particular, we need to have leaders who make SENSE, and he doesn't. For someone running for President to say he thinks something should be illegal, but if the family chooses to break the law, that's their decision, is pretty insane.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, October 25, 2011 6:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

President's don't get to make those decisions. Even their SC choices, once confirmed, may or may not vote the way they'd like them to, so this whole issue of abortion is inane and really a waste of time.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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