Something I saw... by Niki2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You're welcome. It just struck me so forcefully I felt I had to mention it. I'd like to get to know her, but I'm not big on approaching people, unfortunately. It was actually really tough for me to walk up to people at the College of Marin and hand them one of the little handouts, smile and say "Join us some Saturday". Luckily, only one person refused my offer, and so many smiled and said "thank you" (which surprised me) and walked away actually READING it, that it made me feel good. Didn't change the difficulty of approaching people cold, tho', unfortunately. But I'm pushing myself...

We bitch and moan about so much, and talk constantly about how screwed up our government, etc., is, that it's good to be reminded occasionally just how lucky we ARE!

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:48 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I have been pondering in recent days the conflicts between the protesters and the police.

Some things occurred to me, and I thought it might be worthwhile to mention to others in your network.

Surplus gas masks are available for ~ 13 dollars. http://budk.com/Finnish-Gas-Mask-With-Filter

They can be quickly donned in the event that mace/tear gas use seems imminent. I have used them in the past and they work very well.

Also, the front line protesters (most likely to encounter police) may benefit from painting their slogans on a more resilient surface:

http://www.outdoorpros.com/Prod/Premier-Crown-3100PL-Riot-Shield-with-
Plain-Decal-Clear/75436/Cat/77?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=livesearchcashback

These items are perfectly legal to own and carry, and are purely defensive in nature.

The gas masks should be within most people’s price range (assuming they can afford to buy lunch) while you will need to select persons with more disposable income to carry the resilient signs.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 9:29 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I have been pondering in recent days the conflicts between the protesters and the police.

Some things occurred to me, and I thought it might be worthwhile to mention to others in your network.

Surplus gas masks are available for ~ 13 dollars. http://budk.com/Finnish-Gas-Mask-With-Filter

They can be quickly donned in the event that mace/tear gas use seems imminent. I have used them in the past and they work very well.

Also, the front line protesters (most likely to encounter police) may benefit from painting their slogans on a more resilient surface:

http://www.outdoorpros.com/Prod/Premier-Crown-3100PL-Riot-Shield-with-
Plain-Decal-Clear/75436/Cat/77?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=livesearchcashback

These items are perfectly legal to own and carry, and are purely defensive in nature.

The gas masks should be within most people’s price range (assuming they can afford to buy lunch) while you will need to select persons with more disposable income to carry the resilient signs.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

Anthony, I love ya to death, and these are wonderful ideas, but do you know the likely outcome of a group of Occupiers showing up with shields and gas masks? It would be taken as an outright provocation, they'd likely be charged with inciting a riot as well as resisting arrest, and probably more.

It's funny, because I was thinking the same thing yesterday about the masks - if the cops are going to insist on firing into the crowd, the crowd should be prepared - but I've got a feeling there are a ton of police just aching for such an "escalation"...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 9:37 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I’m not sure how one mass of persons equipped with shields, gas masks, batons, body armor, and weapons could argue that another mass of persons equipped with shields and gas masks are provocative or inciting a riot.

They would have to damn themselves in the same breath.

And if the police escalated…

Well, they’d have to start shooting people, wouldn’t they? With bullets? Mow down protesters with firearms?

I think we really need to know, as a nation, if our police forces would do such a thing. Because if they would, then things are worse than they appear.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 3:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Are peoples memories really that short ?

Those questions have been answered, Anthony, it's just that most folk don't LIKE the answers so they pretend otherwise - tell me, did you not see Katrina and the aftermath ?

Arbitratry police shootings out the yingyang, the only one of which even a pretense of prosecution was held over being the Danzinger Bridge incident, and that only cause there were sufficient witnesses/survivors to press the issue.
And why ? cause they COULD.
We will never know how many people were shot down individually cause some badge bearing sociopath saw a chance to cap someone and get away with it, and that doesn't even graze the surface once you take into account the presence of Blackwater... and no one else dares question them about a certain bank vault.

House to house weapon confiscations, with a handy "list" obtained no doubt from the very political system ever so quick to assure folk it would never be used for that purpose, with police backed up by the fucking 82nd Airborne, not ONE of which balked or grounded arms and refused - which is why I treat them with extremes of disrespect shocking to even my allies, cause they're fuckin traitors and oathbreakers, every single one of em...
And the cops who were talking such a good game of refusing to ever do such a thing all but RAN their little asses down there howling yee-haw just to do it, plus the bonuses and overtime yanno - no matter how you slice it, the true colors of these arrogant motherfuckers came clear as a bell, only we continue to pretend.

Do you NOT see them stroking themselves in obvious satisfaction of a shall we say physical nature during/after one of these bullrush beatdown ?
Have you never heard the snickers and giggles as they curb stomp and pancake some protestor who's only real offense was being caught out alone away from potential cameras ?

As I say, past a certain point, ignorance is no longer an excuse, "just following orders" is abdication and rejection of their own humanity, and frees me from any moral obligation to treat them as such.

Oh, and while I don't have sufficient confirmation or evidence to go to the newsies about it, real double-ought buck *WAS* fired at the protestors - of course, without ironclad proof there's no way to stick that on the badge bearing bastards, but I am not in favor of offering the benefit of the doubt, in fact one REASON I am so busy is because I am five people short in the office, and at least one of em is a serious piece of mobile deterrent due to possession of both Class III and CCW permits - just being PRESENT is enough to forestall a lot of bullshit cause the boys in blue prefer victims that can't fight back...

Anyhows, would they fire on unarmed peaceful protestors if they thought they could get away with it ?
Hell yes, without even a blink, giggling like little kids while all but ejaculating in their pants.

And if that bothers you, perhaps you should revisit whatever naive, blinded assumptions of what side the police are on.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:05 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

About a year ago I re-watched the Ghandi film. Good film, for the most part.

There is a section in that film where agents of the British government gun down an area full of Indians.

I think it was an eye opening moment for both the British people and any Indians who may not have understood the fullness of the situation.

I think it is far too dangerous for such a thing to happen here, now. Too many people with cameras and recording devices. Too many kinds of people in the crowd. Too much evidence, and too many someones that someone might care about.

Shooting a crowd of thousands of Americans would, in my opinion, end the proverbial game. It's a big You Lose button.

Though I admit some trepidation at being one of the litmus testers if such a pivotal moment were to come to pass.

Do you think the protesters should abstain from taking protective measures, Frem, on the premise that protecting themselves would provoke the Police to massacre?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:02 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Do you think the protesters should abstain from taking protective measures, Frem, on the premise that protecting themselves would provoke the Police to massacre?

While I cannot answer for Frem, I can answer for myself, and my answer would be... Maybe.

What I find much MORE likely would be that the entire incident would be "spun" as "armed protesters violently clashing with and provoking police" or some such.

Unarmed - CLEARLY unarmed - protesters being beaten down in full view of the cameras is a powerful image that the police and pro-establishment politicians have a hard time spinning their way. But the image of hordes of riot-shielded, gas mask-wearing protestors advancing on police, or physically resisting police attacks, merely feeds the beliefs of some that all of the protesters are mere anarchists bent on violence and destruction.

In this case, you supposedly have the RIGHT to protect and defend yourself, but you better not try it if you know what's good for you. They've already shot at least one veteran in the head, quite literally taking away his free speech (he was left without the ability to speak thanks to the skull fracture and brain damage the police round caused); they've already been caught on camera pepper-spraying an unarmed, unresisting 84 year-old woman; they've been caught covering their names on their uniforms in order to more anonymously beat on protesters.

I'm of the opinion that a good number of the police are at this time more firmly of the "just give me a reason, ANY reason" mindset than they are of the "hey, we understand you're upset and we support your right to protest peaceably" frame of mind.

It may not be a MAJORITY of the police who feel this way, but certainly more than a few do. And as we've all been reassured by the right time and again, when it comes to large groups of people, the actions of even a very few are really indicative of and an indictment of the entire group. Well, except when those few "bad apples" are prison guards, interrogators, cops, tea party protesters, or soldiers, of course.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 4:37 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
a good number of the police are at this time more firmly of the "just give me a reason, ANY reason" mindset

This is what the people in Oakland and Berserkeley experienced, Mike, and I have no doubt in other places. This is a CRACKDOWN...while they'd rather avoid bad press, it's a short-lived thing and there are enough people out there who AGREE with their tactics to make it okay. I think you nailed it pretty well.

By the way, again to clarify; Scott wasn't SHOT, he was hit in the head with a tear-gas canister. And you forgot that other vet who was hospitalized...which you'll never hear about. They are sympathetic cases, so they'll both be downplayed or left to be forgotten quickly.

And yes, riot gear (or what TPTB would consider riot gear) would be the perfect excuse, makes 'em look like soldiers rather than victims.

Last, but far from least, of COURSE they'd fire on their own people, pushed hard enough. Two words: Kent State.

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 5:20 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Speaking of which, there's the incident Pizmo just put up, which says a LOT. Turns out it wasn't just one cop (or FAT PIG, in my opinion), a couple of them did it, and it was coordinated...note how the first guy motions the second one to move in and get those he missed:

Yeah, right, "worried about their safety" my ass...

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 5:35 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Check out Occupy Portland...amazing to see these guys loaded down with tons of riot gear and clothing, confronting a bunch of people. I find the RAIN GEAR over all that especially amusing (if anything about this can be). This is the best video I found, which shows you the amount of force they're bringing to bear:

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-706176

Catch this guy, who seems to be having "fun":

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 6:06 AM

America loves a winner!

Standard operating procedure, really. Any time the cops are on patrol, in crowds of people, they're gonna 'suit up' in riot gear. 10+ years ago, at a trendy night life section of ATL, started attracting a certain element, which hadn't shown up there before. Reports of rapes robbery , and car break ins started to climb. Soon after, an NFL football player was involved in an altercation during a super bowl weeekend, where 2 guys ended up dead. From then on, the ATL cops were out in force, all suited up, on every weekend. It was like going to the DMZ for a night out. Ridiculous. But that's just how cities and police depts react to unusual situations.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Do you think the protesters should abstain from taking protective measures, Frem, on the premise that protecting themselves would provoke the Police to massacre?

Hell no, I think they should enforce their rights.

Thing is, that's where other people and me tend to take divergent directions, cause if in the exercise of your rights they agress upon you, I believe you not only have every fucking right to defend yourself with as much force as that takes, up to and including lethal force quite specifically, you have a moral DUTY to do so, cause every time you back down the instant they threaten you, you then reinforce the message THEY wanna send, playing their game, by their rules.

So say they did bring shields and masks, and the police then predictably fired spray/gas and less-lethal munitions without effect, and THEN, "fearing for their safety" started slinging lead.

AND. THEN. WHAT ?

If you cannot answer that, immediately, if you haven't throught it through - I feel one should not be willing to take the first step, since they are unwilling or unable to face the potentive results.

I'm sorry that it has come to this, but denying the ugly realities of the situation is what GOT us here, and continuing to do so is just going to make things worse.

That is, in a nutshell, why I have refused to actively support them - I wish them well, and I HOPE they manage to have a positive effect, but even so the real changes we need to get off the rail line to disaster ain't gonna happen unless someone pushes pretty damn hard.
And the other guys, they'll push back - and then what ?

Will Grigg also has some words of wisdom on the topic, as well.
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2011/11/support-your-local-police
-state.html

Anyhow, before you take step one, make sure you're fully prepared to accept the consequences of that action, failure to do so is unforgiveable.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:20 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Do you think the protesters should abstain from taking protective measures, Frem, on the premise that protecting themselves would provoke the Police to massacre?

--Anthony

Yeah, kinda like those 2 animals who decked themselves out in body armor, and then went on an area wide shooting spree. Because that's what this is heading towards. Militant OWS thugs who think they're entitled to not just be heard, but demand their wishes be met, what ever the hell those wishes may be.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:29 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Frem,

Do you think the protesters should emulate the Tea Party gatherings and bring rifles to these protests to secure their safety from lethal response?

I wonder if such a response would bring approval from the Tea Party crowd- seeing citizens using their second-amendment rights to protect their first-amendment rights. Or would they merely prove themselves to be hypocrites and speak out against it?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:35 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, Anthony, I love it! Thank you!

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:59 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Frem,

Do you think the protesters should emulate the Tea Party gatherings and bring rifles to these protests to secure their safety from lethal response?

Glaring difference is, the TEA party rallies are peaceful, clean and family friendly. Unlike the thuggish, violent OWS gang.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:15 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Oh, Anthony, I love it! Thank you!

Hello Niki,

It would be a sad nail in the coffin of whatever positivity was left in the Tea Party if their position was:

"We believe EVERY CITIZEN (who thinks, looks, and acts like we do) should proudly exercise their 2nd Amendment Rights!"

But frankly, I wonder if any Tea Partier or Right Wing supporter would dare to be so openly, brazenly, and irrefutably hypocritical. Such a stance would ruin their credibility forever, and reveal them to be just another of the tyrannical 'guns for me and no one else' crowd.

Even if they had such broken thinking, who could be so stupid as to openly admit it?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:28 AM

America loves a winner!

Anthony - You really think that promoting a lie , that merely engaging in expressing our rights, is what's going on, and that both OWS and Tea Party groups are comparable ?

I'm calling b.s. on this, that you actually believe one is the same as the other here.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:49 AM