Spending by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Spending

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Monday, December 5, 2011 18:17
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Friday, December 2, 2011 9:35 AM

At the risk of threadjacking Niki's thread, I thought I'd start a new one.

What are people's thoughts on fiscal responsibilty?

How much should we spend on childhood education? Do we spend too much, or too little? (Here in NY it's $17,000/student/year) Does spending more money result in better education?

What about the rest of the economy?

Defense
Welfare
Homeland Security
Creating Jobs
Loans
Foreign Aid
Retirement benefits
Public Housing
Public Transportation
Space exploration
Energy Management and Development
Health Care
Those Damn Arts
Public Roads

Oh, name other things and I'll add them to the list.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 9:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I would take out "retirement benefits", since I assume you mean SSI and Medicare. We PAID for those things, it's not a matter of the government spending on them. If the government held true to the contract they made with us, there'd be plenty of money in there and it would be a null question.

I don't believe spending more money improves education, but I already KNOW from California's example that cutting education spending again and again and again CRIPPLES education.

I have no objection to any of those you listed being paid for with my tax dollars, IF it's done right. Which it isn't currently, so there's a lot we could cut. But not just cut indiscriminately, like getting rid of government employees, but LOOKING AT where the waste is and cutting where it's needed.

You forgot infrastructure. How would you take care of infrastructure, or actually any of the things you listed, if "the government" spent zero ("the government" mening federal, state and local)?

I'd kill 'Homeland Security', as I don't believe it has stopped anything, it has grown enormously since 9/11, and I don't think it is anything but a boondoggle and duplication of existing programs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 9:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Education: In terms of education, if you set a dollar goal per child then I think you are approaching the problem backwards. Successful educational techniques should be pursued as a standard, and the dollar amount necessary computed afterwards.

Defense: In terms of defense, we should have enough military force to protect ourselves from invasion and to protect our trade ships from attack. Limited-run prototype technologies can be developed as proof of concept devices and vehicles, with mass production to be pursued only in the event of a war. War itself needing to be redefined in order to prevent excessive military spending in perpetuity.

Job Creation: I don't think any money needs to be spent with the intention of creating jobs. Jobs will be naturally created as a consequence of Government pursuing its mandates. (Amongst other factors.)

Loans: Loaning activity should pay for itself, such that loans should not cost anything.

Foreign Aid: I would advocate ceasing this practice, except in cases where we have caused the damage being addressed.

Retirement Benefits: I would remove this function from government.

Public Housing: Whatever it takes to provide shelter for those who have none, no means to acquire it, and a desire to have it. Public shelters should be spartan but safe.

Public Transportation: Should be designed as a non-profit taxi service, modeled after the Super-Van/minibus pickup and drop off service that is available at airports. Preferably self-sufficient after an initial investment of infrastructure and hardware. Preferably designed as a low-maintenance zero emission device. Roads should be designed to promote muscle-transportation wherever possible.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, December 2, 2011 10:09 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Oh, name other things and I'll add them to the list.

Space exploration
Energy Management and Development
Health Care
Those Damn Arts

Nice thread. I suspect that it will start with very broad strokes followed by minor quipping then partisan bickering and finally a demasting broad side.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, December 2, 2011 10:27 AM

DREAMTROVE

Niki,

Everyone knows my personal take, I'd abolish the govt and then it wouldn't spend anything. I'd start by getting rid of the federal govt. in toto, and then I'd work on the states ;)

As for roads? How did they do it before? Roads used to belong to someone. They could charge a toll, I suspect a better model would be to charge businesses. Been on an interstate lately? How many Holiday Inns and TGI Fridays did you see? What if Friday's paying for that road? Nothing. But would they pay for it? Of course, because it's bringing them lots of traffic.

Re Soc. Sec. But they did steal the trust and they did spend it on wars, and now it's gone. To receive benefits now you must tax the younger generation. We were just discussing how to change the rates, but it is a tax and spend system.

Anthony,

I'm not setting the goal, the govt that has set this system up, but If the dollar amount is calculated afterwards, you end up with the sort of disaster we have in the medical community, the "name your price" business model, where medicine can be $7000 a dose.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 10:36 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Dream,

You misunderstand. It isn't 'name your price.' It's 'research to find out what the price should be.'

First you identify a working educational model.

Then you find out the cost per child under that model.

i.e. If School X has a very sucessful educational program, and it spends $10,000 per kid, then you know it takes 10 grand per kid to school properly.

It's not possible to pick a figure until you pick a working system.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, December 2, 2011 11:09 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

http://deathandtaxesposter.com/

I'll just leave this here, might be helpful!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 12:19 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I'd start by getting rid of the federal govt. in toto...

Not sure it'd fit. That's a small dog, after all.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, December 2, 2011 12:36 PM

DREAMTROVE

Anthony,

If I were a greedy agenda driven capitalist, I would quickly find a way to replace your economic auditors with my own corrupt officials, and then I would buy the analysis I wanted, ergo, that my program was the best, and that you should pay through the nose for it.

The only way I think you'd get a fair value assessment is through free market competition. Thought on this?

Geezer,

My concept of govt. would fit. I have to admit that no one would know what it was though, it would have to be a shadow govt., because inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:06 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I don't think i want to live in DT land, if you don't have any government then someone, somewhere will step into the power vacuum and they'll probably be mean and not what DT wants at all.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:25 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I don't think i want to live in DT land, if you don't have any government then someone, somewhere will step into the power vacuum and they'll probably be mean and not what DT wants at all.

For me, that is sort of like a slave saying, "It's better to stay with a Master you know than take your chances out there of getting a Master who is so much meaner."

Sometimes, you just gotta be free and keep it that way.

Break power into small pieces, and urge everyone keep their own individual piece of power. No power vacuum.

As for this thread, I vote "no" on everything you listed, DT. :)

BUT, if I had to choose, I would put public roads up there (cause public ownership of roads is logistically expedient enough that I am willing to overlook public ownership). And still nix everything else.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, December 5, 2011 3:22 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I don't think i want to live in DT land, if you don't have any government then someone, somewhere will step into the power vacuum and they'll probably be mean and not what DT wants at all.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

A Riona a chara,

A few things. One, CTS is right. Your current master is unspeakably evil, and if you don't run away, you never get the taste of freedom,

Second, don't you think I've already thought of that? That's why I keep referencing a "shell state" which is something that would keep opportunistic power away. That is the way the US was set up originally, but unfortunately their shell state was not protected itself against takeover.

It can be done, maybe not forever, but if it doesn't last forever, then when it starts to fail, you quit, and start another.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, December 5, 2011 6:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Exactly DT, the shell state got taken over, as it would every time, power vacuums happen and someone steps in to fill it. CTS idea may sound good but I don't believe it is physically possible, at least not for any length of time, a couple of years maybe but that's probably it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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