Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:

---

My admitted limited understanding is that it's obvious to inspectors the difference between what's used and needed, both in hardware and nuclear goo stuff, for bombs versus making electricity - that's what inspectors get paid for.

---

And even inspectors are saying that the flat plates and the type of centrifuges they're using could only be used to generate reactor fuel. Which is the same thing I've been saying.

I'm not risking a million lives first because I'm not in charge, second because I'm against a war in which a million people would die WITHOUT nuclear weapons involved, and third because there's no risk. They can't do something with technology they DON'T HAVE.

But even if they HAD it, or were working to develop it, and had the capacity? They'd be just like all the other rogue nations we thought were going to go attacking other nations around them like crazy. They would be cowed by MAD. Therefore still no risk.

---

Quote:

---

"basing threat assessment on statistical probability" is what Israel has been doing - what % do you think is ok with them with the stakes being so high? 1%?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I don't think history is supported by the majority of people being SUICIDAL.

Where a mass tragedy occurred, it was the result of sociopathy having no consequences. Not being trusting or outright darwinian stupidity. MAD scenarios are the reality, otherwise the US and Russia would have wiped each other out.

You calling me trusting, that's funny. Trust factors into it not at all. I only expect people to be smart enough that they're looking out for their best interests... Provided their minds aren't twisted by propaganda.

The poll I posted, despite an uncertainty about the US and Israel, does not suggest the people of Iran particularly have it in for either of us. This is not imminent danger, especially coupled with the fact that they don't have the technology to produce a nuke.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RionaEire:
I, as Anthony has said, don't want to get into another war about someone maybe having WMDs. We did that before and it didn't go well and I don't want to do it again.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm confused. However the translation comes out, the basic idea is that "occupation regime over Jerusalem" must be wiped out. Isn't the only "regime" occupying Jerusalem Israel? How is that phraseology any different than the sentiment that Israel must be wiped out? Any way you put it, the "regime" over Jerusalem IS Israel, isn't it?

---

Quote:

---

As to nobody using nukes, I wouldn't bet the store on it. We're NOT "sophisticated" enough to guarantee nobody will, and there are crazies in every country. Given the state of our armed forces and how they're scattered around, given our current weakness, given China and Russia being firmly behind Iran and THEIR power, who can guarantee someone hasn't worked out the situation in such a way as to believe it would end up with them "winning"?

Sorry, I don't place that much faith in mankind's common sense. I'm not convinced Iran necessarily WILL, but I'm not convinced it's impossible.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Quote:

---

In existence since Biblical times,"

---

I'm not sure it's fair to say Iran has been in existence since Biblical times. The dirt has been there since Biblical times, but not a continuous government. We (the West) have indeed been messing with them since before WWII, and we (the British and USSR) ousted one of their more progressive leaders in 1941 and we (the United States) kicked out their rightfully elected leadership in the 50's and replaced him with a tool. Our tool. That guy was so bad that the people eventually overthrew him. The Iran of today only came into being in the 1970's.

Quote:

---

"If all the big, powerful, Christian nations of the world have nuclear power, then it is only fair that we, Iran, should have nuclear power."

---

Yes, but perhaps more importantly, "If we are able to advance ourselves and develop nuclear power, by what right do you stop us?"

Quote:

---

Iran (and perhaps other Arab neighbors) "need to sell oil to survive." How come?

---

Well, it's a resource. Nations tend to use their resources as survival assets. Israel doesn't have much in the way of oil, but if they did I'd wager they'd be selling it, too. They sell the resources they do have, after all.

But I wonder how well we'd tolerate it if Iran ever wanted to stop selling oil. Some people would probably roll the drums of war for that offense.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If they are this impractical, it is no wonder that no one wants them to have nuclear power. Heck! Now that I've thought it over, I don't want them to have nuclear power.

---

It shouldn't be our call. But even if we could have our way with the wave of a magic wand... Iran's trying to move into the late 20th century, and saying 'no' because they are 'impractical' seems to me like saying, "You are too barbaric for us to allow you any advancement out of your barbarity."

---

Quote:

---

Suicidal? Um, the region is actually kind of known for using suicide as a tactic!

---

Quote:

---

This is twice now in several months that I've heard you say and take positions I think are completely reprehensible

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Many of those guys do seem to have a low regard for their people's lives...

---

Quote:

---

Israel doesn't have to sell oil to survive. The Arab nations do.

I ask again Why? If you answer this you will see why I consider them "a little people, a silly people" and far too
impractical for their own good.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

The poll you posted was from 2007 btw, the height of Bush's highly successful assassination tour of the US image internationally, another loon that would have probably gladly pushed the button.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Quote Kwicko: "So who is 'practical' enough to have such power?"

No one. So how are we gonna unHave it?

Quote PismoBeach on Iran: "They need to sell oil to survive."

Israel doesn't have to sell oil to survive. The Arab nations do.

I ask again Why? If you answer this you will see why I consider them "a little people, a silly people" and far too
impractical for their own good.




"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

---

Quote:

---

Which is why it's all the more confusing as to WHY you'd listen to his same bunch of neo-con cronies when they're trying to sell you the exact same line of bullshit they used to sell people on the disastrous Iraq war.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Where a mass tragedy occurred, it was the result of sociopathy having no consequences.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yeah, you'd almost think they were Republicans or something, they have such low regard for the lives of their countrymen...

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
That's not really how it works. I imagine Israel actually probably does get oil from hostile nations, because they buy it off a market, not from the hostile nations.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

The poll you posted was from 2007 btw, the height of Bush's highly successful assassination tour of the US image internationally, another loon that would have probably gladly pushed the button.

---

Which is why it's all the more confusing as to WHY you'd listen to his same bunch of neo-con cronies when they're trying to sell you the exact same line of bullshit they used to sell people on the disastrous Iraq war.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Quote:

---

This is twice now in several months that I've heard you say and take positions I think are completely reprehensible

---

Hello,

I don't think Piz is evil. Or at least I don't remember Piz being evil, and he's been around a while. Likely there's just a couple key areas where his train tracks and yours don't intersect.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
IAEA - "International Atomic Energy Commission."

I think you completely missed the parts of that report that indicate that the IAEA is just fine with Iran pursuing commercial uses of enriched uranium.

You, on the other hand, are against them having that, because you think it's like some sort of gateway drug to nuclear apocalypse.

Iran is claiming they have new generation centrifuges, a bold claim that doesn't hold much weight and which seems to be an effort to win support from the public for Ahmedinejad. Altogether this indicates they are really far behind and lying to save face about how much they've accomplished.

Schematics and research and attempts at reverse engineering is not the same thing as successful tests, which is not the same thing as prototype technology or having that technology available. It also says nothing about their immediate intentions to wipe Israel off the map, which itself appears to be propaganda and entirely unfeasible, like the ant biting the anteater.

They don't have the technology.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:

---

Suicidal? Um, the region is actually kind of known for using suicide as a tactic!

---

Wow, that's not at all an offensive stereotype about the middle east. Yeah, everyone in the middle east is a suicide bomber, or will become one. The average farmer is just so dangerous and crazy.

You don't seem to understand the very specific conditions required for a Muslim to be considered a martyr by their religion. Getting curb stomped after phenomenal stupidity isn't a martyr suicide tactic.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:

This is twice now in several months that I've heard you say and take positions I think are completely reprehensible, to the point that I start to think I don't want to talk to you anymore. I imagine I will respond to you again in another thread anyway because I forget, but I'm certainly wishing right now that I'd stuck to my original decision.

Perhaps you are too. Maybe I should try again.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
That's not really how it works. I imagine Israel actually probably does get oil from hostile nations, because they buy it off a market, not from the hostile nations.

---

Nope.

We're bound by Treaty, which I have pointed out in other cases is equal in authority to the US Constitution, to supply their petroleum needs over and above our own, even if we go short.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/peace%20process/guide%20to%20the%20peace%20p
rocess/memorandum%20of%20agreement%20between%20the%20governments%20of

I'd love to meet the bastards who drew THAT up and signed it in a dark alley somewhere.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

My hope is that if Israel decides to bomb Iran, or take any other action in their pre-emptive defense, that we stay out of it. My hope is that all the peace-loving people on this board, and everywhere else, rise up in righteous indignation against the idea of another war, and another hundred-thousand souls lost.

I miss the anti-war sentiment that was here in the Bush years. It's so tepid and soft now. I remember when the mere prospect of another war would get some people here to stand up and holler "HELL NO!"

Now it's like, 'Well, I wish it wouldn't happen, but you know, it might. Sigh.'

Sometimes I think the worst thing that ever happened to the Peace movement was getting a Democrat elected to the White House.

---

Quote:

---

North Africa is equatorial. My old sis often told me a that in ancient times, it was tropical like Brazil and parts
of SE Asia. (My sis was not the most reliable reporter; but she did read a lot.) It was so rich, it became a cradle
of civilization. It could not have been a desert then.

It wasn't always a desert. It became a desert from overfarming. There might have been many wise leaders along the way
who told the people, "We have to reverse this. We have to regain the fertile land by replanting trees and protecting
them, by building oases and top soil." It would have been tedious and difficult, but it could have been done.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

Why are you such a defender of radical Islam? Do you really think only we can suck?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

Why are you such a defender of radical Islam? Do you really think only we can suck?

---

Am I? I find it odd that you equate questioning what we're being told by admitted propagandists as "defending radical Islam". I find it even more odd that you think that my pointing out that all the things we accuse "radical Islam" of doing, we do ourselves.

I guess I could ask if you really think that only THEY can suck? Or that somehow, only we CAN'T?

We're seeing the same build-up to war that we saw a decade ago. And most of y'all are too addle-pated to even remember that, it seems. You were lied to then, yet you seem sure of your sources this time - only they're the same basic sources!

---

Quote:

---

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Quote:

---

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"

---

Hello,

If that's not the conclusion, then it doesn't matter how awful Iran is, what sorts of Nuclear programs they're developing, or how much they despise Israel.

If we're not going to bomb them or invade them or otherwise violate their sovereignty, then these are just unattached observations floating around without purpose.

However, these observations often seem (to me, anyway) to be a list justifying action against Iran.

--Anthony

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Quote:

---

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"

---

Hello,

If that's not the conclusion, then it doesn't matter how awful Iran is, what sorts of Nuclear programs they're developing, or how much they despise Israel.

If we're not going to bomb them or invade them or otherwise violate their sovereignty, then these are just unattached observations floating around without purpose.

However, these observations often seem (to me, anyway) to be a list justifying action against Iran.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Quote:

---

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"

---

Hello,

If that's not the conclusion, then it doesn't matter how awful Iran is, what sorts of Nuclear programs they're developing, or how much they despise Israel.

If we're not going to bomb them or invade them or otherwise violate their sovereignty, then these are just unattached observations floating around without purpose.

However, these observations often seem (to me, anyway) to be a list justifying action against Iran.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Quote:

---

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"

---

Hello,

If that's not the conclusion, then it doesn't matter how awful Iran is, what sorts of Nuclear programs they're developing, or how much they despise Israel.

If we're not going to bomb them or invade them or otherwise violate their sovereignty, then these are just unattached observations floating around without purpose.

However, these observations often seem (to me, anyway) to be a list justifying action against Iran.

--Anthony

---

Exactly. Suppose Iran *IS* pursuing nuclear weapons. Suppose they actually build them.

What reaction are you proposing? If not war, if not military strikes, then what? What *I* propose is that a nuclear Iran is no more or less dangerous than a nuclear Israel, Pakistan, India, China, or America. You've yet to provide any evidence that proves otherwise, yet seem adamant that we must do SOMETHING. What, exactly, do you propose we do? Bomb them? Sanction them? Embargo them? Refuse to talk to them?

What I see here and elsewhere is lots of people basically using their own prejudices and stereotypes to justify attacks on Iran. What you're saying, in essence boils down to "Hey, they say they aren't making nukes, but we all know how they lie." It's offensive, because what it proves to me is that you don't *know* anything about Iran, its people, its motives, or anything else, and what you think you know is wrong.

When I'm talking to someone and they preface their "thoughts" with "Hey, I don't mean to sound racist, but..." or "Hey, all I know is...", then it becomes immediately and abundantly clear to me that they are indeed about to say something horribly racist, or they in fact don't know much of anything at all.

---

Quote:

---

I don't trust your judgement on this: "no one is going to USE a nuke in this day and age."
That means one of us is wrong. If I'm wrong then no bombs go off, if you're wrong things go boom. If you were put in charge of such things which scenario is the wisest one to plan for?

If Iran would never use one then they won't mind us making sure they can't, right?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Quote:

---

I don't trust your judgement on this: "no one is going to USE a nuke in this day and age."
That means one of us is wrong. If I'm wrong then no bombs go off, if you're wrong things go boom. If you were put in charge of such things which scenario is the wisest one to plan for?

If Iran would never use one then they won't mind us making sure they can't, right?

---

Hello Pizmo,

I suspect comments like this one make people think you support action against Iran.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Pizmo: Um. I may have been a little hormonal earlier.

I just wanted to say I have a friend who's family is from Iraq, and also that I do appreciate you've made a friend of an Iranian. It's a nice story.

And I'm starting to get where you're coming from, but I still think you need to be careful that your concerns aren't taken and hijacked by people who do want war.

---