REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Is Veterans' Suicide from PTSD Breaking All Records?

POSTED BY: OONJERAH
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 21:02
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Monday, April 23, 2012 9:47 AM

OONJERAH



A Veteran’s Death, the Nation’s Shame =>
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/opinion/sunday/kristof-a-veterans-de
ath-the-nations-shame.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all


HERE’S a window into a tragedy within the American military: For every
soldier killed on the battlefield this year, about 25 veterans are dying
by their own hands.

An American soldier dies every day and a half, on average, in Iraq or
Afghanistan. Veterans kill themselves at a rate of one every 80 minutes.
More than 6,500 veteran suicides are logged every year — more than the
total number of soldiers killed in Afghanistan and Iraq combined since
those wars began.

Can this be true? And if so,
then PTSD is far worse now than it was even for Viet Nam vets.

How Come?

Civil War, W.T. Sherman said, "War is hell." Nothing new about that.
But I believe this suicide rate is new, and there must be a reason for it.

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Monday, April 23, 2012 11:45 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Well we can't know for sure if rates have never been this high, because historically records weren't kept. But its soooooooooo sad and makes me want to cry and we have to do something about it as a nation.

Riona's theories:
Theory A: The Lack of Processing Time: Our warriors get sent right home and don't have the time to process through their experiences together the way they would have in the past, back then it took longer to get home, plus sometimes they were given a period of time they needed to wait before going back to regular nonwar life, people process trauma better if they're doing it with others who were in it with them. If they don't have such a chance then its harder to process through it. Also of note is that in ancient cultures there were often rituals associated with wars, waiting periods to clense oneself and transition oneself out of war, rituals of obsolvance to show a passing back into regular life, to seperate one's actions in war and one's actions in peace, almost a seperate state of being that one could be in so wartime activities were their own thing and peacetime activities were different, no spilling over.

Theory B: Our genes are getting worse with every generation, maybe our brains aren't as tough as they once were. There has always been PTSD ever since people started making war with each other, but maybe we get it more now because our brain toughness genes are getting worse as time goes by.

Question that I've been pondering: If someone grows up with war all around them they often end up with PTSD. But what about the opposite, if someone grows up with war around them they could become hardened to it and not be affected. Is this why whole cultures could be very warlike and many people were just fine anyways?

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, April 23, 2012 12:21 PM

BYTEMITE


I like the first one. The second one, not so sure about. I've seen plenty of indications that our brain genes are fine; in fact, even though it might not seem like it and we seem so dumb, there are arguments that this century and the last have produced the smartest and most knowledgeable people ever. In the very least genetic and social pressures have been selecting at least for social intelligence. So if there is an increase in mental illness both home and abroad, the root cause is probably environmental.

Quote:

Is this why whole cultures could be very warlike and many people were just fine anyways?



Even the spartans had their share of deserters. Most of them would probably qualify as having PTSD. Desensitization is a conditioned stunted emotional response to trauma and stressors. To be completely uncaring of violence and death is more like sociopathy, I would say that the two technically aren't the same. A shock can break through even extreme conditioning, and a number of individuals we would probably consider desensitized, such as many US troops, are startled and caught unawares by their first real combat experience, no matter how much prep they've been given in advance.

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Monday, April 23, 2012 1:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I would've loved to say I was surprised when a U.S. soldier went on a rampage and started executing Afghan civilians, but I'd foreseen it years ago when they started doing stop-loss retentions, multiple tours of duty, and the old "you're going home - oh, wait - no you're not!" bait and switch on our soldiers.

You put these people into hell. Literal hell. You tell them it's only for a year. Then two. Then seven or eight. You tell them they're almost through, then you yank that out from under them and tell them they're going back yet again.

What did you expect to happen? You've put someone at a young age into the worst place they've ever been in their life, seeing and doing things that no human should ever have to see or do, and then you've sent a clear message by your actions that they may well be there forever, and you act shocked when they take extreme action to get out of there by any means necessary, even if it's in shackles and bound for a firing squad, because at least that has some final resolution to it!

It's not shocking that it happens; it's shocking that it happens so rarely.

We broke these people, and now nobody wants to pay to try to fix them. Easier to just toss them aside and forget about them. Conservatives call them "parasites."

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, April 23, 2012 3:02 PM

OONJERAH


^ What Kwicko said.

2 Jan 2012, Mount Rainier shooting suspect Benjamin Colton Barnes confirmed dead =>
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/01/mou
nt_rainier_shooting_suspect_3.html


Reports about Ben Barnes as I recall them: He liked the Army, wanted it for his career.
He served in Iraq; it was rear echelon, tech stuff. I don't think he'd been in the service
for too long, maybe a couple of years. When he became unable to follow orders and such,
became unfit, moody, explosive, they dumped him on the civilian population.

Oonj wrote at the time: "If Barnes had a known mental illness, then I feel doubly that
the Army was at fault to discharge him. Yes, we don’t want the military to be 'an easy
billet for misfits.' Unless they can keep following orders."

As near as I can see, Barnes service was far easier than for men in combat. Yet he broke
down. Why? He needed care, hospitalization; the Army tossed him out.

So many men come home and here they get sicker instead of recovering. I may suspect
drugs, alcohol, poor diet, air borne allergens, bad vibes, witch doctors, whatever. There's
something about serving in the ME that's destroying our men. When men can no longer
serve but need rest, therapy in a VA hospital, apparently, they are denied, discharged.

Talk about use and abuse. This is wrong.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Monday, April 23, 2012 4:38 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
An American soldier dies every day and a half, on average, in Iraq or
Afghanistan. Veterans kill themselves at a rate of one every 80 minutes.

Can this be true? And if so,
then PTSD is far worse now than it was even for Viet Nam vets.


From what I can find, the 18 a day (every 80 minutes) figure includes Vietnam vets, and all other veterans, including those from WWII, Korea, the Cold War, Iraq I, etc.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 5:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I kinda agree with Riona's #1, and more. In one of the articles I've posted here, it mentioned that the military treats people with PTSD, considers them cured, then sends them BACK into combat (or whatever). PTSD isn't that easily cured; at best it goes into "remission". Add to that the fact that, I believe?, this is the longest war we've ever been in, and were at war on two fronts for years; our military has been stretched enormously and the tours of duty have been multiple and lengthy.

Admittedly Vietnam was almost as foreign as Afghanistan/Iraq, but I'm not sure how MUCH more foreign. There is no country on earth I can think of which is harsher than Afghanistan, or more foreign. Increasingly the natives are turning against us, as the news shows, and that means the troops can't know who to trust, even those who are supposedly on our side. I THINK (dunno for sure) that in 'Nam the population was mostly with us, so it was only the known enemy they had to fight.

Afghanistan is very, very harsh, even today, and a lot of the troops, from what I've seen on the news, work together in small groups isolated from anyone else, in very harsh terrain. I would guess that in situations such as that, the troops become very close and very inter-dependent, so when one or more of them are killed in front of their comrades, the sense of isolation and danger might be enhanced. There's the added fact that few, if ANY, Afghans in small villages speak English or are in any way prepared to deal with foreign soldiers, and the fact that the Afghans have turned against us so strongly that our soldiers must feel very, very isolated.

Obviously I know nothing of battle, but I can easily assume that fighting in a country like Afghanistan would be far harder on a soldier than fighting in places like Germany or France, etc. That, and the length and frequency of tours, with little time to re-acclimate to normal living or get support from family, would be two things which might well contribute to more PTSD and suicides. There were quite a few suicides in 'Nam, both by soldiers in the field and those who had returned; while 'Nam was certainly a very difficult culture to fight in, I don't believe the tours of duty were as long or as repetitive, given they had the draft back then and a large contingent of soldiers to be sent over.

Those are just my guess. Whatever the reasons, it sickens me to learn how bad this is.



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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 5:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Here is one soldier's solution:
Quote:

A young soldier who wrote the number 6 down on a dry-erase board. This was someone obviously a little slower than most. He was a good soldier, but not quite as sharp as the rest — that wasn’t by choice.

It was a little hard to tell that it was a 6 the soldier wrote. As his superior, I would have simply asked him what he meant to write and had him write it again more legibly. Instead, his sergeant called this young soldier almost every name in the book. “Stupid, retard, dumb-ass, you can’t even write, idiot,” just to name a few. More undue anxiety added to an innocent soldier’s life, and this transpired in Iraq, an already stressful environment.

Here’s another story. There is a rule in the Army that you have to wear your headgear any time you step outside. I remember a time when a soldier didn’t put his headgear on as soon as he stepped out. It probably took him two seconds instead of one. I’m not against correction, but I am against a supposed leader saying the “F word” 15 times in another man’s face, in front of many other soldiers, just to get him to put his hat on faster.

I could go on forever giving examples just like these, but if you’ve heard one, you’ve heard them all. Each day that I was in the service I witnessed or was the recipient of these uncalled for actions.

This type of behavior from superiors isn’t just a motivator for stress, which can easily lead to suicide under the right circumstances, it’s also just outright bad leadership. Do you think a soldier with suicidal thoughts who is treated such as this will even feel comfortable coming to his superior to ask for help? I know I wouldn’t.

Even without the threat of suicide, this kind of treatment is detrimental to one’s health and well-being, and not only for that individual, but everybody around him. If the Army’s leaders care as much as they always say they do about soldiers’ well-being, then working on fixing this shouldn’t be a problem.

The Army’s solution, which is hardly enough, is to keep a better eye out for warning signs of suicide. I don’t know whether you have ever heard suicide stories, but almost every one sounds the same coming out of the mouths of the people directly around the victim.

They always say “I never thought he would do something like this” or “He seemed fine to me.” I say the same things about the soldiers that I knew personally who committed suicide. They seemed fine to me. The point is simple: Most of the time there are no warning signs, but yet that is the best solution that the Army can come up with. Keep a better eye out for the warning signs, which probably won’t even present themselves.

My solution is a little more effective. How about better leadership? Instead of a bunch of overbearing egotists who overload soldiers with extra stress on a daily basis, let’s think about promoting true leaders who know the importance of each and every soldier.

Men and women who truly value the lives of the soldiers under them and know how to properly approach any situation. Leaders who don’t judge a soldier by one mistake they may make. Leaders who understand the military life is stressful and difficult all by itself and that none of our troops deserve added stress.

Promote soldiers who prove they are competent leaders by their actions, soldiers who show they know how to lead effectively and fairly and treat men and women as men and women, not objects or lesser humans. The current promotion system is based upon a soldier’s accumulated points. They get these points by taking a few courses at home, memorizing a few Army regulations and statistics, then reciting them in front of a group of other leaders, and also just by staying in the Army long enough.

Do those things and you’re thrown into a leadership position, responsible for other human lives. This is why there are so many terrible leaders in the Army, because most of them don’t have the makings of a good leader.

We get better leaders with a better promotion system based on genuine displays of leadership qualities, not based on points that are easy to obtain. I’m not saying this will stop all suicides from happening, but I am saying it will reduce the number. It’s far better than just keeping an eye out for the warning signs.

Strength in Army terms means doing nothing about all the unnecessary abuse. Just “soldier through it.”

Strength to me means not accepting all the unnecessary abuse. If you have a problem with being disrespected, judged unfairly, treated like you’re not worthy and having your rights almost completely stripped away, then you’re not “Army Strong” in the military’s book. That makes me “Army Wrong,” which is a step forward in my book. http://www.pennlive.com/editorials/index.ssf/2011/08/want_to_prevent_m
ilitary_suici.html
]



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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 5:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This one absolutely blew me away. I had no idea they were doing this, and it's beyond belief!

This article is by, I believe, a civilian news reporter:
Quote:

Military suicides are at an all-time high, according to reports from the pentagon, with one troop taking his or her own life nearly every day for the past two months.

That our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines are facing tremendous cumulative stress sort of goes without saying, considering the current conflict is now the longest-running war in American history. Many in our military report feeliing that they are no longer a part of their families - wives and children have had to make it without their fathers and husbands for so long that they seem strangers in their own homes.

Many attribute the problem to risky behavior, but could there be additional reasons for the spike in suicides? My friend Remington Nevin thinks so. Remington is a medical doctor for the Army, and he says the rise in the use of psychotropic drugs may be at the root of the rise in troops killing themselves.

This report corroborates his story - many troops are now being treated for PTSD with multiple drugs for depression, sleeplessness, nightmares, and anxiety. One drug in particular, a sleeping pill called Seroquel, is now the number 2 drug throughout the VA system. Seroquel has been suspected in the deaths of several soldiers and Marines, many of whom were also taking up to a dozen other prescriptions at the same time.

Perhaps we should stop medicating the life out of our troops and work to mitigate the source of their problems. A military psychologist for the special operations community told me years ago that there are three main factors that mitigate stress in combat troops. Focusing on these three facets has been proven to help soldiers cope.

1. Knowledge - the more tactically and technically efficient a warrior is, the less anxiety he will experience in battle.

2. Cameraderie - when a troop feels connected to his or her comrades - both on and off duty, that esprit de corps will carry him through the toughest situations. Brothers dissipate stress.

3. Discipline - the more disciplined a warrior, the less stress he will feel. Discipline is like armor against stress. http://blogs.cbn.com/bootsontheground/archive/2010/08/30/why-so-many-s
uicides.aspx
fact that psychotropics are used so frequently came as news to me. I can tell you one thing: Seroquel is an ANTI-PSYCHOTIC! WHY they are using it for "sleep" is totally beyond me. It is used for schizophrenia and bipolarity, and in both cases, for extreme symptoms. WHY are they using it (and especially so heavily) for "sleep"?? Yes, Seroquel makes you sleepy--many of us could'nt even handle it because it would simply knock us out, but that's a SIDE EFFECT, that's not what it's intended for. It blew me away to read it's used so much in the military, that's insane in my opinion!

Here:
Quote:

A small number of children, teenagers, and young adults (up to 24 years of age) who took antidepressants ('mood elevators') such as quetiapine (Seroquel) during clinical studies became suicidal (thinking about harming or killing oneself or planning or trying to do so). Children, teenagers, and young adults who take antidepressants to treat depression or other mental illnesses may be more likely to become suicidal than children, teenagers, and young adults who do not take antidepressants to treat these conditions.

You should know that your mental health may change in unexpected ways when you take quetiapine or other antidepressants even if you are an adult over age 24. You may become suicidal, especially at the beginning of your treatment and any time that your dose is increased or decreased. You, your family, or your caregiver should call your doctor right away if you experience any of the following symptoms: new or worsening depression; thinking about harming or killing yourself, or planning or trying to do so; extreme worry; agitation; panic attacks; difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep; aggressive behavior; irritability; acting without thinking; severe restlessness; and frenzied abnormal excitement. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001030/ from the NIH (National Institute of Health) and published by the U.S. National Library of Medicine, so they supposedly know all this. So WHY in hell are they using it for "sleep"??? Among the mental health community, Seroquel is considered one of the HEAVIER anti-psychotics, prescribed for people who suffer extreme effects of their disorder! I've got to check into this, because it absolutely blows my mind! In my opinion, this deserves its own thread, which I'm going to start.



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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:15 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Breaks my heart too, but I have to stick to my guns here - I stopped helping them for a reason, and that reason has not changed.

I'm sorry.

-Frem

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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:36 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Seroquel is considered one of the HEAVIER anti-psychotics, prescribed for people who suffer extreme effects of their disorder!


The heavier anti-psychotics are also called "major tranquilizers." They're supposed to be used for schizophrenics and people with psychosis, but anti-psychotics tend to have the opposite effect on people who are neither, making them more schizophrenic or even driving them into schizophrenic catatonia.

They don't want to help these people, they just want them to stop being a problem. They don't particularly care how that happens.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:36 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Breaks my heart too, but I have to stick to my guns here - I stopped helping them for a reason, and that reason has not changed.

I'm sorry.

-Frem



I get that, and I understand. But don't forget that these people aren't just choosing to inflict this behavior on themselves; they're also choosing to have it inflicted upon their families and children.

This struck home:

Quote:


It was a little hard to tell that it was a 6 the soldier wrote. As his superior, I would have simply asked him what he meant to write and had him write it again more legibly. Instead, his sergeant called this young soldier almost every name in the book. “Stupid, retard, dumb-ass, you can’t even write, idiot,” just to name a few. More undue anxiety added to an innocent soldier’s life, and this transpired in Iraq, an already stressful environment.

Here’s another story. There is a rule in the Army that you have to wear your headgear any time you step outside. I remember a time when a soldier didn’t put his headgear on as soon as he stepped out. It probably took him two seconds instead of one. I’m not against correction, but I am against a supposed leader saying the “F word” 15 times in another man’s face, in front of many other soldiers, just to get him to put his hat on faster.

I could go on forever giving examples just like these, but if you’ve heard one, you’ve heard them all. Each day that I was in the service I witnessed or was the recipient of these uncalled for actions.



You know my Dad was a drill sergeant, right? Ever see "The Great Santini"? Growing up, we thought it was a comedy. Same with "Full Metal Jacket". Hell, far as any of us kids knew, that WAS how you treated people, especially family members.

Difference is, we didn't volunteer for it.

Why the hell do you think I left home at 15? 'Cause it was such a supportive environment?

When I enrolled in college, the for some idiotic reason insisted that I either live at "home" with my parents, or live in the dorm. I was 26, I'd been living on my own for a decade, never missed a day of work or a bill payment, but rules are rules, so I told them I lived at home. I lied, of course; then I had to call my mom at work and tell her that my mail from school would be showing up at their door, and if they'd leave a message at work, I'd come get it, or they could forward it to me, whatever was easiest for them.

So I finish my first semester and go to pick up my grade report when it arrives at my folks' house. My dad's there, so I open it and show it to him - 4.0, honor roll, the whole bit. He takes one look, crumples it up and throws it in the trash and says, "What the fuck did you expect? A HUG?"

Never bothered to show him any other accomplishments after that; what would be the point?



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:37 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Seroquel is considered one of the HEAVIER anti-psychotics, prescribed for people who suffer extreme effects of their disorder!


The heavier anti-psychotics are also called "major tranquilizers." They're supposed to be used for schizophrenics and people with psychosis, but anti-psychotics tend to have the opposite effect on people who are neither, making them more schizophrenic or even driving them into schizophrenic catatonia.

They don't want to help these people, they just want them to stop being a problem. They don't particularly care how that happens.




Bingo. Standard military problem-solving: See problem. End problem. Don't care how.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:42 AM

BYTEMITE


"Schizophrenic" meaning more agitated, more irrational, more emotional, more disconnect with reality. There are obvious differences between people who are tweaked on anti-psychotics and true schizophrenia, but the similarities are enough that institutions have used anti-psychotics to destroy credibility or as an excuse to diagnose actual schizophrenia and force custody over to them.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 2:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I get that, and I understand. But don't forget that these people aren't just choosing to inflict this behavior on themselves; they're also choosing to have it inflicted upon their families and children.


All the more reason to STOP SUPPORTING IT, in every and any way - to shun it, to shun THEM so long as they practice it.
Military CULT-ure is a poison, and a cancer upon our society, which isn't even supposed to have a standing federal army in the first fuckin place for the very reasons it's become such a problem.

Ain't that I don't feel sorry for em, especially given a lot of em were ignorant dweebs straight out of highschool all but railroaded into the service for lack of any other viable option, but so long as THEY happen to see shooting/incarcerating/whatever unto ME as a future mission objective, so long as there are active duty troops on American soil with suppression of the very populace they're SUPPOSEDLY protecting as their mission objective...

They're the enemy - and I must regard them as such first and foremost, unless they jump ship, defect or turn fifth column, in fact my own oath of service REQUIRES it.
"Against all enemies, foreign and domestic..."

They're an unconstituional standing army, and some element thereof being activated here to SUPPRESS the will of the people that they're supposed to enforce, that borders on outright Treason, which is as you know, NOT a word I ever use lightly - but seizing arms from the people in defiance of the Second Amendment (See Also: 82nd Airborne, Katrina) is pretty goddamn close to "Levying War Upon" the United States in the person of its citizens, and there were far more than the required number of witnesses to that Overt Act.

Ergo I MUST regard them with suspicion and hostility - they've verged on Treason and seem fully prepared to commit it upon command, lip service about illegal orders aside, and thus I can not, will not, in any way aid, abet, or support them, I can't.

Even knowing how intimately it sucks to be them - this is not an enviable position and it's sure hell not one I like being in, but so long as they're willing to be tyrannys triggermen, I don't have any choice in it.
They DO - and the one they've made... makes them my enemies.

Sorry.

-Frem

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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 2:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Don't apologize, Frem; I respect your position more than you might know.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, April 24, 2012 3:28 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I agree with the article about leadership. I also agree that making our warriors better prepared is good, the more prepared you are for something the more you can handle it, not to say that any preparation will fully prepare you for war, but the better prepared you are the better you are likely to fair in my opinion.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:12 PM

OONJERAH



Veterans and Brain Disease
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/26/opinion/kristof-veterans-and-brain-d
isease.html


... That story is devastatingly common, but the autopsy of this young man’s
brain may have been historic. It revealed something startling that may shed
light on the epidemic of suicides and other troubles experienced by veterans
of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

His brain had been physically changed by a disease called chronic traumatic
encephalopathy, or C.T.E. That’s a degenerative condition best-known for
affecting boxers, football players and other athletes who endure repeated
blows to the head.

In people with C.T.E., an abnormal form of a protein accumulates and eventually
destroys cells throughout the brain, including the frontal and temporal lobes.
Those are areas that regulate impulse control, judgment, multitasking, memory
and emotions.

That Marine was the first Iraq veteran found to have C.T.E., but experts have
since autopsied a dozen or more other veterans’ brains and have repeatedly
found C.T.E.
...
C.T.E. leads to a degenerative loss of memory, thinking ability and, eventually,
to dementia. There is also often a pattern of depression, impulsiveness and, all
too often, suicide. There is now no treatment, or even a way of diagnosing C.T.E.
other than examining the brain after death.



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:30 PM

BYTEMITE


Hmm. Training? Explosive shockwaves?

In any case, this certainly would not be helped by Seroquel.

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Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm. Training? Explosive shockwaves?




My bet is on the second one. There's a reason they call those shockwaves "concussions", after all.


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Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:04 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Interesting, probably because they're always getting hit with those rutting IEDs which cause physical trauma, concussions etc. so they might as well be boxing with how they get knocked around.

As to Frem, there are many things that we will never agree on most likely.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm. Training? Explosive shockwaves?



My bet is on the second one. There's a reason they call those shockwaves "concussions", after all.


My bet is on the first - Army PT seems almost designed to cause damage, I've seen quite a few fall out from what the Army calls "Jumping Jacks" which essentially slam your friggin brain against the skull repeatedly, and at least one of them did die soon therafter, but I am sure they attributed it to something else, some kind of "pre-existing" condition to dodge responsibility...
But I know for damn sure some of those poor bastards on the PT field wound up with undiagnosed concussions, and that's not to mention what some of the equipment can do to you - I got to fire a quad .50cal once and I was a little "off" for almost a week and near deaf for like two days.

-Frem

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Friday, April 27, 2012 10:22 AM

OONJERAH


Quote Frem: "I got to fire a quad .50cal once and I was a little 'off'
for almost a week and near deaf for like two days."

A Quad .50 Caliber anti-aircraft gun concusses the guy operating it?
And this is normal, SOP? Accepted?
... Oonj wonders:
So the guys firing artillery get way more concussions than the guys
being fired at? And the military "didn't notice" this hazard to them?
Did artillery guys get PTSD sooner or more often than the others?

C.T.E. has been seen and documented for some time in football players
and boxers. Dr. Bennet Omalu identified the condition in 2002.
What is CTE (illustrated) => http://www.bu.edu/cste/about/what-is-cte/


. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Friday, April 27, 2012 11:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Uh, yeah - remember I consider the Military to be a font of insanity.
See ANY hearing protection on these guys, do you ?



Hell, even WITH it, the guy in the hot seat takes a real beating, I am SO not kidding.
Even Nathan Fillion got a taste of that, remember where he takes down the Alliance flyer with the twin AA gun, and you can SEE the enormous waves of muzzle blast ?
Heck, he comments on it in the commentary track, how loud and brutal it was to fire that thing, and that was probably with blanks!

This bit is about the medical details, and while focused on near-impact, is also applicable to the firing end as well, because those things kick off a hell of a shockwave when they fire, and the crew are right there reloading it repeatedly.
http://waiting.com/blog/tag/concussions-and-artillery-blasts

Seriously, look at these and think about it.





That's not including loud stuff like truck engines, chopper engines, prop wash, getting bounced around in cattle trucks or humvees like a pea in a whistle and generally pitched around on top of the brutal PT that I already mentioned - it's outright ASSUMED that an artillery crewman goes deaf/crazy after a year or so on the job, and being stop-lossed repeatedly doesn't even provide the usual refresh cycle which tends to give them time to recuperate.

-Frem

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Friday, April 27, 2012 11:41 AM

OONJERAH


Quote Frem: "the usual refresh cycle which tends to give them time to recuperate."

Rest is good. But recuperate? Not from C.T.E. apparently.
Once they get it, it's progressive. In athletes, it often takes a long time to fully
devastate the mind. With the soldiers, it may be different: worse & repeated damage
over a shorter period perhaps. Not that I've looked at this in depth. But I think the
athletes they've found to have it lived longer than the soldiers: They are just now
diagnosing it in them, post mortem.

While the differences in brain tissue is obvious in the photos (link above), surely
they'll find a way to detect it in the living: MRI or PET?

Prognosis: the worst. No known treatment. ...

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Saturday, April 28, 2012 11:44 AM

OONJERAH



New Invention….V2 =>
http://theconcussionblog.com/tag/dr-todd-aaron/

I created the V2 Prototype Concussion Reduction System when my
daughter suffered a concussion in an equestrian accident. I vowed
that I would find a way to protect all athletes so they could safely
participate in sports.

Until the V2 Prototype Concussion Reduction System, all efforts to
stop concussions have been based solely on the helmet. I realized
that I needed to take a systematic approach to absorbing and dis-
sipating the forces of impact thus minimizing their potential for
central nervous system damage. Therefore I created a patented one-
piece helmet and shoulder pad design that transfers energy away
from the head and redistributes the total force. The product was
tested at impacts in excess of 100 G’s at Biokinetics and Associates
in Ottawa, Canada. Independent statistical analysis confirmed that
one is nearly twice as likely to suffer a concussion when not wearing
the V2 Prototype as compared to those using it!

One of the added benefits of the V2 Prototype is that modifications
to the current state of the art are minimal. There is no need to
create a new helmet technology or a new shoulder pad system. The
V2 can drive down the incidence of concussions as well as keep the
standard aesthetic that so many players are unwilling to give up.

In fact we have even had player feedback that the V2 would make
them look even cooler!

Hmmm. I wonder if it works.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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Saturday, April 28, 2012 11:50 AM

OONJERAH



DHA in omega 3 fatty acids might protect from traumatic brain injury
http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/dha-omega-3-fatty-acids-might-protect-t
raumatic-brain-injury


DHA found in fish oil might protect athletes and soldiers from traumatic
brain injury, found in animal studies.
In a new study, researchers found rats with traumatic brain injury (TBI)
given the highest doses of the omega-3 fatty acid docosahexanoic acid
or DHA experienced less damage to brain tissue.

The preliminary results were compared to rats given the omega 3 fatty
acid at varying doses. Scientists found a substantial reduction in the
expression of beta amyloid protein that is implicated in the formation
and progression of Alzheimer's disease in rats given the highest dose
of DHA.

[DHA = docosahexaenoic acid]

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:39 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


It would be easy enough to give our soldiers fish oil to take with their meals I reckon. Those new helmets are cool, maybe they'd be a good investment for the military too.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:52 PM

OONJERAH



Former NFL player Junior Seau dead =>
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/02/sport/nfl-seau-dead/?hpt=hp_t1

Los Angeles (CNN) -- Former NFL linebacker Junior Seau died from an apparent
self-inflicted gunshot wound Wednesday, according to police. He was 43.

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Wednesday, May 2, 2012 9:02 PM

OONJERAH



Seau death puts spotlight on concussions and depression =>
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sns-rt-us-nfl-seau-concussionsbre
84201m-20120502,0,6400661.story


"Depression & suicide are serious matters and we as current and former
NFL players should demand better treatment. Lack of info ... no more!!!,"
former Dallas Cowboys Hall of Fame running back Emmitt Smith said on
his Twitter account.

"And for you current players who think this issue doesn't effect u. Get
your head out of your but. Where u r 2day was his (Seau's) yesterday."

Seau spent 20 seasons in the NFL terrorizing running backs & receivers
but there is, so far, no proof that his death can be linked to chronic
traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a degenerative brain disease caused
by repeated blows to the head which can only be diagnosed after death.

There is, however, mounting evidence that many professional football
and hockey players suffered from CTE in their careers.

Duerson's brain, examined by Boston University's Center for the Study
of Traumatic Encephalopathy found "indisputable" evidence of CTE in
the tissue.

"NFL players often experience post-concussion syndrome," said James
Johnston Jr., M.D., assistant professor of Neurosurgery at the University
of Alabama at Birmingham in a statement. "They have a higher rate of
depression, substance abuse, and dementia compared to the general pop-
ulation - it's thought this is connected to head impacts."



. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.


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