REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Your Protectors at Work

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 16:36
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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 5:40 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Rolling Stone delivers a well deserved bodyslam here.

How FBI Entrapment Is Inventing 'Terrorists' - and Letting Bad Guys Off the Hook
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/how-fbi-en
trapment-is-inventing-terrorists-and-letting-bad-guys-off-the-hook-20120515

Quote:

the arrest was part of a pattern of entrapment by federal law enforcement since September 11, 2001, not of terrorist suspects, but of young men federal agents have had to talk into embracing violence in the first place. One of the Cleveland arrestees, Connor Stevens, complained to his sister of feeling "very pressured" by the guy who turned out to be an informant and was recorded in 2011 rejecting property destruction: "We're in it for the long haul and those kind of tactics just don't cut it," he said. "And it's actually harder to be non-violent than it is to do stuff like that." Though when Cleveland's NEWS Channel 5 broadcast that footage, they headlined it "Accused Bomb Plot Suspect Caught on Camera Talking Violence."

So far no one else has addressed the financial leverage as well - the Feds get into these morons who are often down on their luck, pay their bills, keep the collection agencies off their back, and yet no one mentions the effect THIS has on their willingness to do whatever the guy who just got them out of hock tells em, or at least play along with him.

Hell, to not be hypocritical about it, there's some of that from my angle too - when I step in and pull someone out of deep caca there's generally some reciprocal loyalty sure, I just don't demand it or insist they owe me - of course that itself is a big part of why folks choose to work with me...

Been a bad week for the FBI, too - one of their agents went all nutter and ran off into the hills with a couple of guns, and other one walked right into a bust for trading underage porn, fairly blatantly too, via the remnants of the Candyman E-group, formerly run by Wayne Camolli (who was Dutrouxs american pipeline)
Care to bet they'll let him off easy cause he's one of the "protected class", hmm ?

Will Grigg also has a pair of well deserved smackdowns on the mafia in blue, but this drew my eye.

If Cops Can't Taze a Pregnant Woman, The Terrorists Will Win
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2012/05/if-cops-cant-taze-pregnan
t-woman.html

Quote:

The ruling that is fraught with such awful implications, Brooks v. City of Seattle, involved a patently unnecessary Taser attack upon a woman who was seven months pregnant. The unarmed woman, who was not suspected of a violent crime, posed no threat to the three – yes, three – valiant officers who assaulted her. She was uncooperative, but did not offer any violent resistance.

Her sole “offense” was to refuse a demand that she sign a traffic ticket that was eventually dismissed.


Mind you, signing the ticket is not legally mandatory, and a benefit to ones case in that you're not admitting guilt.
PN, crazy as he is, has that one right - the mere act of signing the damn thing some courts will take as admission of guilt and then forbid you to even protest if you DO try to fight it.
So long as the cop has physically handed you your copy and placed it in your sole possession, his legal responsibility is complete - to demand it be signed is illegal, and generally ego involvement, which this whole thing was.

But what drew my eyes on this too-damn-common occurance was a pointed reminder of something else I've said around here more than once - that ALL laws depend on lethal force, that ANY breach of ANY law however minor or petty, or even isn't even a breach of one except in the officers mind, as in this case, there is the inevitable escalation of force, up to and including lethal.
Suppose she'd resisted more effectively, for example ?

Oh, and don't shovel me that "your day in court" bullshit, okay - once you are in their custody, under their power, cut off from communication, resources and whatnot, anything can and might happen to you, like accidently catching "excited delirum" or restraint asphixia, or getting strapped in the death chair...
http://www.progressive.org/mag_cusacchair
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/11/jail-abuse-nick-christie-pepp
er-spray-florida_n_1192412.html


Unless you really mean to tell me you'd put your fate, your entire life, oh-so-trustingly, into the very hands of the folk NOW abusing you, expecting them to suddenly have a change of heart once you're fully in their power ?
Riiiiiight.

Anyhows, the potential for ANY violation of even the most petty, obscure, incomprehensible little thing, or even some dumbship deputy dimwits perception of that law, to result in someones death...
Ought to damn well make one consider this notion BEFORE suggesting or advocating any law.
Quote:

"Am I willing to kill to see this done, am I willing to condemn someone to death over this ?"

And IF that answer is "NO!", then there ought NOT be a law, and you should NOT advocate for it.
Simple ?

Oh, and Baltimore's Police Dept got the great big boot of the USDOJ planted FIRMLY up their ass in regards to officers making an "issue" of their behavior being recorded.
(PDF link, reader required)
http://www.pixiq.com/sites/default/files/united_states_letter_re_photo
graphy_5_14_2012_0.pdf


Issues with the USDOJ aside, they've always been the go-to enforcement when other federal or state agencies can't seem to act like anything but a gang of thugs, up to and including the FBI cause it's been USDOJ who's the ONLY one ever to call them to hell, repeatedly and on radically different issues.
Another thing we're taking issue up with them about is not just about the right to film police, but police deliberately wearing masks and taping their badge numbers in response to it.

Consider that the cops rail about the Anarchists wearing masks, and then wear masks themselves to hide THEIR identities cause THEY don't want to be called on THEIR behavior.
Such abundant hypocrisy that comes with a badge!

-Frem

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 7:11 AM

STORYMARK


Why do hard stuff like investigating real threats in hiding when you can justconvince some fools to become "threats" and boost the success rate numbers?

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 7:55 AM

BYTEMITE


Posted this to family, having an argument about it.

*sigh* So frustrating that people think the ends justify the means. We don't get dangerous terrorists off the streets, we make them.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 9:08 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I remember having a conversation with an acquaintance some three years ago that boggled me.

I was talking about the CIA and describing it as a malevolent agency, involved in doing terrible things in the name of protecting our country.

He countered that the CIA was benevolent.

I asked if he understood what benevolent was, and he said yes. He said that, in fact, the CIA was an agency of good.

I countered that, at best, one might consider it a 'necessary evil' but never not evil, given the terrible things they tend to be involved in.

He said that if the end result was protecting America, then everything they did was actually redeemed into goodness, and so they were benevolent. Even things which seemed terrible, like torture or other violations of civil liberties, were redeemed by the result of protecting the U.S. from harm.

Which is, of course, the ultimate expression of 'the ends justify the means.'

I did not bother to debate the idea of whether or not the CIA actually does protect America, because once so basic a diversion of morality was detected, it no longer mattered to delve any deeper into the topic. It is a position that apologizes for any behavior, no matter how heinous or extreme. And if any innocents are somehow proven to have been harmed by the process, they are the unfortunate collateral damage associated with any worthy endeavor, patriots who gave themselves to the cause of 'freedom.' (i.e. freedom in an environment where freedoms are infringed upon.)

Silly me, I have a different philosophy (which also has collateral damage.)

I believe that we should ever err on the side of freedom and individual rights, and if any suffer because of the unsafe conditions of freedom, they are the true patriots of freedom.

I suppose authoritarian-minded individuals find my patriots as condemnable a sacrifice as I find theirs. It seems better to me to have people dying from freedom than dying from a lack of it.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 10:20 AM

BYTEMITE


My argument has devolved into whether or not it's attempted murder if you carve a wooden gun and point it at someone, believing it can shoot bullets.

This prompted me to ask if it would be attempted murder if a little kid took a toy gun to school and tried to "shoot" a friend that made him angry with it. Apparently also so!

Our society has a nearly terminal case of stupid.

Look, I'd maybe stand by a conspiracy to commit murder charge because they did THAT even without the FBI's involvement and that's not particularly important as to whether or not they were actually successful. But I think that the FBI involvement makes everything else and any other charges very hazy. And even the conspiracy charge thing gets a little too close to thoughtcrime than I'm comfortable, and what is the point of making an example out of them when they weren't even successful?

What damages do they have to pay back, what is the point of punishing them? Scare people off from SUCCESSFULLY accomplishing the same? I just about guarantee that if someone was SUCCESSFUL then trying to scare them did precisely nothing. Hell, if someone is even considering trying this than a scare tactic probably isn't even gonna DETER them. No, it kind of looks to me like this was more bean counting, "look, we've stopped this number of terror attacks, don't you feel safer?" (No)

Trying to LOOK effective is not the same as actually being effective. I wish they'd stop wasting our time and money going after people who are basically incompetent and go after real threats. EFFECTIVELY, without all the pointless security theatre. Of course, if they did THAT, they might have to face actual DANGER, so we won't be seeing THAT any time soon.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 10:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I simply don't take a moral position on the ends vs means debate, I make my statement BY not taking a side.

I'll do what I will do, and fuck you if you don't like it.
My actions, sinner or saint, are MINE, and I own em.

Simple as that.

-F

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 4:28 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I've recently crawled off the fence and am shakily standing on the "its not okay to trick guys who want to be terrorists into thinking we're giving them real bombs" side of it. I know that those guys, if they're serious, will do it anyways. I understand why tricking them seems like a good idea, better they have fake explosives and contacts than real explosives and contacts, but what if they're sort of lazy and the only reason they went through with it was because we made it easy by giving them the stuff, and in real life they wouldn't have if the stuff was regular hard to get.

So I'm tentative but I'm testing this out for myself.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 4:36 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

what if they're sort of lazy and the only reason they went through with it was because we made it easy by giving them the stuff


Hello,

I agree with this statement.

Imagine a man in an argument with his neighbor. Imagine if he said something like, "If I had a gun right now, I'd shoot your silly ass!"

Then imagine that a bystander hears this, walks over to the angry man, and places a gun in his hand at that exact moment.

Suddenly the whole situation is probably a lot different than it would have been a moment ago.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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