REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

After Saying ‘Vagina,’ a Woman Legislator is Banned From Speaking on House Floor

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 06:47
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Sunday, June 17, 2012 5:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


A-mazing. And they continue to get away with it! This doesn't offend me, it pisses the HELL out of me!
Quote:

After offending Majority Floor Leader Jim Stamas by using the offensively medically accurate word "vagina" in an impassioned floor speech opposing Michigan's draconian new abortion law, State Representative Lisa Brown was banned indefinitely from speaking on the floor of the House of Representatives. Her colleague Barb Byrum, another passionate pro-choice elected official, was also served with an indefinite Shut The Fuck Up order from the the male-lead body. Apparently, during Michigan's War on Women, ladies aren't even allowed to serve in combat.
Byrum and Brown joined several of their female colleagues in voicing their vehement opposition to Michigan's anti-abortion bill, a steaming pile of misogyny that would criminalize all abortions after 20 weeks' gestation in all cases (so, if you had some terribly severe birth defects, too bad, sister — you carry that dead baby until that dead baby decides to be born) and contains no exceptions for the woman's health. It also straps abortion providing facilities with new burdens designed solely to make it a pain in the ass for them to operate.

As you might expect, debate's been heated. Hundreds of women have flooded the capitol to protest the bill's careless fast tracking, ham-fisted paternalism, and disingenuous concern mongering. Yesterday, before the bill was passed by the House, several female state representatives stood up to voice their opposition to the proposal. And two of them got a little too uppity for the male Speaker's taste. Want to get mad? Of course you do. Anger is the only way you know how to feel feelings anymore. Read on; it gets worse.

Rather than be a manly man and tell the women to their face that they had upset the Speaker, Bolger acted like a mincing, spineless ninny and relayed the women's speaking ban through their party's House leader. He gave no explanation as to why the women were banned, so both are left guessing (and fuming) today.

Byrum's silencing is a little more cut and dry than Brown's; she spoke out of turn (after trying, unsuccessfully, to be recognized to speak), which is technically a violation of House rules, which means that the Speaker was within his rights to reprimand her. But legislators speak out of turn fairly regularly, and only rarely are they told to sit down and shut up, officially.

I spoke with Rep. Lisa Brown, who was on the floor of the Michigan State House when we talked (because it's not like she was allowed to participate in any debates today, right!? Cry.). She's confused about what she did to offend the Man-Gods who want to run Michigan's uteruses, but she's got a couple of theories. During yesterday's speech, she mentioned her Jewish faith, which she thought might have irked Republicans. But more plausible is the explanation that it was her use of the medically accurate, anatomically correct word "vagina" during the debate ("I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my vagina, but no means no.") grossed her male colleagues out. "What word should I have said?" she asked. Apparently, "vagina" is another v-word that Must Not Be Named. Like Voldemort.

Brown's looking into her post-ban legal options, as her inability to speak on the floor of the House means that her constituents are effectively unable to have their Representative weigh in. Both women have been told (through their party leader because Michigan Republicans are trying to break the douchebaggery land speed record) that the ban is indefinite.

Women have been absent from the debate around a bill that seeks to govern their bodies from Day 1. During committee, no pro-choice women were allowed to speak. Planned Parenthood was barred from testifying. And now this — two pro-choice female legislators all-out banned from voicing an opinion on the state's role in their anatomy. This is un-fucking-believable, and inexcusable. To borrow a phrase from my grandmother, Michigan Republicans should be ashamed of themselves.

Let this be a lesson to you, women: shut up and let men do all the deciding about your bodies. http://jezebel.com/5918493/female-legislator-who-dared-say-vagina-duri
ng-abortion-debate-banned-from-speaking-on-house-floor
other words "we're not gonna tell you when you can talk again"! If you don't like "war on women", how about "oppression of women"? Wanna bet this wouldn't have happened if they were MALE? I would.

What's happening these days really gets my goat. I thought we had achieved at least SOME equality, but it seems in our government, not even slightly. The "good old boy" network is still going strong!

And how the GOP Reps. explained it:
Quote:

Nonsensical GOP Spokesperson Says Female Legislator Was Banned for Supposed Rape Metaphors, Not ‘Vagina’

In short: Brown bravely used the word "vagina" while discussing vaginas. Here's the now infamous line that got her indefinitely barred from speaking on the floor of the House of Representatives: "I'm flattered that you're all so interested in my vagina, but 'no' means 'no." After Brown's puritanical punishment made national headlines, scored her a spot on The Rachel Maddow Show and got #vagina trending on Twitter, some Republicans are claiming that it wasn't actually the word "vagina" that did Brown in.

"My concern was the decorum of the House, not of anything she said," Majority Floor Leader Jim Stamas, R-Midland
, who ultimately decided to ban Brown, told The Detroit News. "I ask all members to maintain a decorum of the House, and I felt it went too far yesterday," he said. "It has nothing to do with the word vagina," House GOP spokesman Ari Adler elaborated. Phew, what a relief! But what, pray tell, did it have to do with then? Adler said the House took offense when Brown said "no means no" because it implied she was comparing abortion legislation to rape. And if there's one thing Republicans hate more than the right to choose, it's metaphor.

Other Republican representatives were so horrified by the v-word that they didn't even care about pretending otherwise to make themselves look slightly less dickish. "What she said was offensive," said state Rep. Mike Callton, [i[R-Nashville, hands at the ready to cover his ears lest a nearby woman utter the correct term for a part of her anatomy. "It was so offensive, I don't even want to say it in front of women. I would not say that in mixed company," he said.

What's more offensive to women: using the word "vagina" while talking about medical procedures that involve vaginas, or allowing a group of pearl-clutchy men who are so disgusted by ladyparts that they can't even talk about them in public to dictate what women should do with their own bodies? Fuck it, let's just call the vagina what it really is: a baby receptacle.

Brown told The Detroit News that the incident has helped her raise campaign donations, so at least there's some hope left in this world. http://jezebel.com/5918685/nonsensical-gop-spokesperson-says-female-le
gislator-was-banned-for-supposed-rape-metaphors-not-vagina
only REPUBLICAN lawmakers are such babies that the word makes them cringe; tho' they apparently have no problem whatsoever trying to CONTROL our viganas!

Dunno if this for real or is satire, but it's almost amusing. Almost.
Quote:

25 Republican-Approved Ways to Say ‘Vagina’ Without Offending Political Pussies

Here are 50 ways that Michigan women can use to refer to their "special husband zone" around men who find medically accurate words for women's anatomy offensive, and suggested ways to use them in a sentence.

1. Love cave
Honey, can you go buy me some tampons at the store? My love cave is bleeding.

2. Baby chute
When I get home from work, I want you to put your mouth on my baby chute.

3. Forbidden area
It may seem unfair that Adam makes more money than Molly simply because Molly has a forbidden area, but that's the way of the world.

4. Basement
The President inserted a cigar into Ms Lewinsky's basement, then put the cigar in his mouth and said: "It tastes good"

5. Kid factory
Did you hear that Virginia passed a law requiring trans-kid factory ultrasounds for women seeking abortion?

6. Sin gash
My roommate's not going out tonight because she has a yeast infection in her sin gash.

7. [uncomfortable silence]
Mr. Speaker, I'm uncomfortable with the government's sudden interest in my [uncomfortable silence].

8. Man trap
Car insurance costs less because having a man trap makes you less reckless.

9. Hermetically sealed shame basket
Luckily, her gynecologist made sure to be gentle when prodding her hermetically sealed shame basket.

10. Spousehole
If I wanted the government in my spousehole, I'd fuck a Senator.

11. Schmegina
I can't help it if I have a heavy flow and a wide-set schmegina.

12. Mystery machine
Don't use flavored lube to make your mystery machine taste better.

13. Rape invitation
After sleeping with a man who claimed to be Joe Francis, Laura began experiencing discomfort in her rape invitation.

14. Wide receiver
Inez isn't a slut; but her wide receiver is rarely unoccupied.

15. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil
Why is it that men think that women really love it when they jackhammer the shit out of their Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

16. Untapped resource
If you want to be tough, grow an untapped resource. Those things can take a pounding.

17. Inferiority complex
After a particularly difficult delivery, a woman's inferiority complex may need a few stitches.

18. Spaghetti junction
After a romantic weekend at a bed and breakfast, Helen's spaghetti junction needed a break.

19. Despair
The cool thing about this new vibrator is that it stimulates all of the most sensitive parts of your despair.

20. God's stab wound
He told me I had the prettiest God's stab wound he'd ever seen.

21. Penis house
I want to try using a Diva Cup, but I fear that my penis house is oddly shaped.

22. The not-so-fresh place
Moving from phonetics to etymology, ‘the not-so-fresh place' originates from a word meaning sheath for a sword.

23. Pelvic interior
As compensation for their labors, men are given periodic use of a woman's pelvic interior.

24. Kant
So few men understand how to navigate Kant.

25. Vulva

So there you have it! Nice, sanitized words for ladyparts that won't scare Republicans. But a word of advice, for future reference: if you can't bring yourself to say the name of the thing you're trying to legislate, you should probably just let that shit go. It was never yours to begin with. http://jezebel.com/5918587/25-republican+approved-ways-to-say-vagina-w
ithout-offending-political-pussies

Amen.

Once again, things are happening in our government which I never imagined would happen where women are concerned. Should we go back to the chadri and stop driving? Bet they'd LOVE that...it seems to be where they're headed...

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 6:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Sometimes it is a person's duty to speak up, even when those who make the rules would prefer that they didn't.

I would love to see an army of women assembled to protest this action by shouting 'vagina' at the banners until this legislator is reinstated as a speaker on the floor. She represents the people, and silencing her is like silencing the people.

--Anthony








Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 7:15 AM

STORYMARK


The GOP continues to strive for new lows.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:26 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


So "freedom of speech" doesn't even apply to elected female legislators, if they say something that upsets their male ( not sure of the right word--- bosses? leaders? superiors? Fuhrers?)


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Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

Sometimes it is a person's duty to speak up, even when those who make the rules would prefer that they didn't.

I would love to see an army of women assembled to protest this action by shouting 'vagina' at the banners until this legislator is reinstated as a speaker on the floor. She represents the people, and silencing her is like silencing the people.

--Anthony










It's already happening, virtually and more. Look on facebook - there are TONS of campaigns going on right now, flooding these idiots' phone lines with messages (the main message being "Vagina"), burying them with postcards which say simply "Vagina: Can't say it, don't regulate it" and more.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:44 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
The GOP continues to strive for new lows.




Every time you think they can't go any lower, they manage to somehow lower the bar even further.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 10:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 10:29 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Good work Republicans. Keep it up all the way to the elections.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 10:43 AM

BYTEMITE


Blegh. Yeah, no pictures, thanks.

While the issue discussed in the OP is real, I'm often bothered by the language and writing style these feminist bloggers use to express their outrage. They're trying too hard to be quirky, and the writing misses the mark.

Report the facts, let the story speak for itself, don't reinforce sexist stereotypes. Be professional - you can demonstrate anger without leaning on excessive mud-slinging or sensationalized language, and it's more effective to boot because it doesn't come across as a grade school smear.

Above all, don't ask me if this makes me mad, because pathos rhetoric of any kind immediately puts me on the defensive and also undermines the credibility of the reporter. This is an example of SHOW, don't tell. If there's reason to get angry, I assure you, I will get angry all on my own. Anything else just alienates potential allies among men and women.

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 4:02 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Byte,

I agree that I'd have preferred a fact-based rather than snark-based report.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 4:21 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


So I guess now she'll be relegated to only speaking her Vagina Monologue to a party of 1?




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Sunday, June 17, 2012 4:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
So I guess now she'll be relegated to only speaking her Vagina Monologue to a party of 1?



]


Hello,



--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, June 17, 2012 4:41 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


It's only funny when it irritates the women who thrive on....

well.....

whatever the male counterpart of misogyny would be....

http://thesaurus.com/browse/misogyny?__utma=1.311813973.1336696594.133
9237421.1339986918.6&__utmb=1.3.9.1339986924591&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1339237421.5.2.utmcsr=google|utmccn=%28organic%29|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=%28not%20provided%29&__utmv=-&__utmk=104905859


It seems that even thesaurus.com doesn't have a counterpoint to this argument.





A for the question, let her say ass-fart-shit-cock-fuck-bastard-dildo-faggotron for all I care.

If she had a point to make, I'm not one to discredit her for saying Vagina.

I saw Kindergarten Cop when I was in like 3rd Grade. I saw two twins who couldn't be more than 8 years old say "boys have penises, girls have vaginas" in that movie.

The "Vage" doesn't scare me.....

In fact, bring it on girl

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
So I guess now she'll be relegated to only speaking her Vagina Monologue to a party of 1?



]


Hello,



--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz




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Sunday, June 17, 2012 5:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I'm sorry, but how is this misogynistic again?

* Michigan Congress, eh? OK then. *




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, June 18, 2012 2:13 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I'm sorry, but how is this misogynistic again?

The Congress somehow manages to survive some 225 years w/ out the word 'vagina' uttered on the floor, or in the records, and NOW it's a terrible affront to women to ask for some measure of decency and decorum?




If I read correctly, this woman was talking about an abortion law. How is using the word vagina in that context not appropriate, how is it even avoidable, and how is it lacking in decency and decorum to use it?

This is not a slur, it is a medical term describing female anatomy as neutrally as possible. Treating it like an offensive word is.. yeah, pretty much mysogynistic, because it implies that the entire concept of a vagina is offensive and inappropriate. In a speech regarding abortion.

You can see that there's some contradictory tension in this situation, right?

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Monday, June 18, 2012 3:38 AM

BYTEMITE


Jack: The male counterpart to misogyny is "misandry."

And now you know.

But, seriously, did the article HAFTA get into calling into question the manliness of these guys? It uses "manly men" so derisively and then also calls the senators spineless. And while in this case the male senator clearly has no ability to debate - whatsoever - and no respect for his female peers, but by using such broad terms the article reveals some kind of unfair opinions about EVERY guy. Worse is that "funny" little list calling a vagina a rape slash. Really? REALLY?

Do the authors even want male allies, or do they just want to alienate every guy around them in a 100 yard radius? I mean, I get wanting to do things for yourself, and having the chip on your shoulder about it, mine's about the size of a mortar launcher. But turning away allies on the basis of gender is just inefficient and unwise, and hell, I'll even say bigoted. The lady who wrote that article, and the ones who wrote the list, they're bigoted. And while I sympathize with them, fighting bigotry with more bigotry is just ugly business.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 3:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I'm sorry, but how is this misogynistic again?

The Congress somehow manages to survive some 225 years w/ out the word 'vagina' uttered on the floor, or in the records, and NOW it's a terrible affront to women to ask for some measure of decency and decorum?




If I read correctly, this woman was talking about an abortion law. How is using the word vagina in that context not appropriate, how is it even avoidable, and how is it lacking in decency and decorum to use it?

This is not a slur, it is a medical term describing female anatomy as neutrally as possible. Treating it like an offensive word is.. yeah, pretty much mysogynistic, because it implies that the entire concept of a vagina is offensive and inappropriate. In a speech regarding abortion.

You can see that there's some contradictory tension in this situation, right?



Actually, the way she used the term actually WAS kind of inappropriate - she basically said "why are you all so interested in my vagina," which would be comparable to one of her male colleagues saying "why are you all so interested in my testicles?"

Considering how ban-happy the house majority leader in question appears to be over this issue, could be he would have silenced her for using the term IN a way appropriate to the conversation, so that's probably moot. But it's also important to recognize that in a different context, a loaded question like that could be construed as sexual harrassment, and I don't necessarily think it's okay even in THIS context. She could have phrased it in a way so she's talking about vaginal ultrasounds in general, fine, but she made it personal, she made it about her own anatomy. No one, in any official or workplace setting, really wants to hear someone talk about their own anatomy.

Neither party really behaved in a manner befitting their office here. The actions of the house majority leader are arguably worse, but him being wrong doesn't make her approach in the debate acceptable.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 4:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Do the authors even want male allies, or do they just want to alienate every guy around them in a 100 yard radius? I mean, I get wanting to do things for yourself, and having the chip on your shoulder about it, mine's about the size of a mortar launcher. But turning away allies on the basis of gender is just inefficient and unwise, and hell, I'll even say bigoted. The lady who wrote that article, and the ones who wrote the list, they're bigoted. And while I sympathize with them, fighting bigotry with more bigotry is just ugly business.


Hello,

These are good observations, Byte. I have found in my limited experience that a number of people who campaign passionately on such issues have experienced some incident or trauma that makes them somewhat into a reverse image of what they oppose. However, I am more concerned in this case with the precipitating incidents, and not the blogger.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 4:25 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Actually, the way she used the term actually WAS kind of inappropriate - she basically said "why are you all so interested in my vagina," which would be comparable to one of her male colleagues saying "why are you all so interested in my testicles?"

Considering how ban-happy the house majority leader in question appears to be over this issue, could be he would have silenced her for using the term IN a way appropriate to the conversation, so that's probably moot. But it's also important to recognize that in a different context, a loaded question like that could be construed as sexual harrassment, and I don't necessarily think it's okay even in THIS context. She could have phrased it in a way so she's talking about vaginal ultrasounds in general, fine, but she made it personal, she made it about her own anatomy. No one, in any official or workplace setting, really wants to hear someone talk about their own anatomy.



Hello,

Here I will disagree with you, Byte. This entire discussion is very personal and very much about personal anatomy and what freedoms women have regarding that anatomy. It is appropriate for every woman to deal with this issue as it effects them personally, and it is appropriate for a representative of the people to ask the poignant and collective query, "Why are you so interested in my vagina?"

That this IS a very personal and intimate subject is not the fault of the representative who asked so poignant a question. In a debate involving vaginas and uteruses, using vagina in that exact context is not sexual harassment, although the notion that women should lose control of their bodies might be. The fact is that certain powers ARE very much interested in every woman's vagina, and in many cases this is against the will of the women involved. 'No means no' indeed, and I can't imagine any singular statement or query that could make the case more succinctly.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 5:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

it is appropriate for a representative of the people to ask the poignant and collective query, "Why are you so interested in my vagina?"


That question would more accurately be "why are you all so interested in my uterus?" The only bearing the vagina has on this issue is vaginal ultrasounds.

The vagina itself is the entry point, which is why it's a more innuendo laden and strings-attached feature.

But in any case, I don't really know that she was specifically talking about the vaginal ultrasounds, but it IS inappropriate to make it a personal issue and to make personal comments about your own anatomy.

That's the problem with this whole debate, is that everyone takes it so personal. And then you get ugly gender warfare and invectives tossed from either side. The unfortunate implication in all of this is that humans are apparently defined by their anatomy - a women IS her vagina, and a threat to one woman's vagina is a threat to all. Therefore, are all men dicks, in both terms of the anatomy and the vernacular slur? I see too much of this kind of thinking for comfort.

I don't really think any of this is increasing understanding between the genders or changing hearts and minds. It's time to change tactics.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 5:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, everything you have said on the subject is totally relevant and right on point, in my opinion. And I love the cartoon!

And yup, NewOld,
Quote:

So "freedom of speech" doesn't even apply to elected female legislators
Apparently so. I find it amusing and sad that supposedly-professional, adult legislators were such ninnies about it (tho' I agree, as much as anything it was an excuse, and no doubt they DID find the "no is no" at least as offensive/aggressive). I've seen quotes from legislators which are, to me, at least as offensive/unprofessional, so there is no comparison as I see it.

Mike, oh, thank you! That made me smile, and tickles the shit out of me that they're being flooded with the word--AND the context of "Can't say it, don't regulate it". Excellent. It's pretty obvious that these guys have absolutely NO compunction to imagine all of what is involved with the vagina (from sex itself to abortion, contraception, etc.), so it's either a matter of saying it being something that makes them squirm (if so, how pathetic!), puritanical dichotomy, or using it as an excuse to silence a differing opinion. Any of those are reprehensible in a governing body. But the good-old-boys network is still in charge, obviously.

I agree about getting lower and lower, but would phrase it that they are exercising their power more and more. If one wants to talk about censorship and abuse of power, what more perfect example can anyone think of!

Good lord, Byte, if you are offended by the language of said bloggers, you obviously haven't been reading any of the material put up by bloggers on the other side! Limbaugh is just a small sample of the kind of mysoginy and downright disgusting language (and judgment!) on the other side of the issue! And yes, I chose to post things by people as angry as myself about this; I have no doubt there are more equanimcal articles out there, tho' it's hard to imagine any report that doesn't contain derision. It deserves to be derided; such abuse of power in a governing body over a minor infraction (IS it even an infraction?) is inexcusable--"indefinitely"?? How can that possibly be defended? As for "manliness", I think censoring a legitimate representative of the people over the use of a word which apparently makes them squirm is pretty unmanly. Or one could phrase it "adolescent" or "childish", because it is all three.

I don't think it has anything to do with "allies"--what side anyone is on about this isn't going to be changed, whatever the verbiage. What it does is show up a transparent dichotomy, and yes, I would say MOST women are sick to death of this kind of shit--it goes right along with the "women shouldn't show their ankles" and not talking about menses, and all the other things men have claimed for centuries are "unladylike".

Would seem Raptor is as ridiculous as the male legislators--to say a word has never been used so shouldn't be is pathetic, especially given, as Agent said,
Quote:

How is using the word vagina in that context not appropriate, how is it even avoidable, and how is it lacking in decency and decorum to use it?

This is not a slur, it is a medical term describing female anatomy as neutrally as possible. Treating it like an offensive word is.. yeah, pretty much mysogynistic, because it implies that the entire concept of a vagina is offensive and inappropriate. In a speech regarding abortion.

Bang on. They're happy enough to (I guess use euphemisms to) talk about restricting a woman's rights around her vagina, but to use the actual word should have been a NON-controversy. They made it one by censoring the representative--especially "indefinitely"--nobody else did.

That it's patently absurd on the face of it is what MADE it a "controversy"; that it's an over-the-top abuse of power is what pisses people off, male AND female.


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Monday, June 18, 2012 6:09 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Good lord, Byte, if you are offended by the language of said bloggers, you obviously haven't been reading any of the material put up by bloggers on the other side! Limbaugh is just a small sample of the kind of mysoginy and downright disgusting language (and judgment!) on the other side of the issue!


I imagine I would be offended by them, IF I read them, which I don't, because there's only so much I can take before my despair over humanity plummets off the fekkin' cliff.

I figured here I would try to start where it is simple, easy changes that are stylistic, for people who might be willing to abandon whatever bigotry they do exhibit as it is expressed in far smaller amounts.

Quote:

And yes, I chose to post things by people as angry as myself about this; I have no doubt there are more equanimcal articles out there, tho' it's hard to imagine any report that doesn't contain derision. It deserves to be derided; such abuse of power in a governing body over a minor infraction (IS it even an infraction?) is inexcusable--"indefinitely"?? How can that possibly be defended?


Of course. My issue is more that they derided it poorly. They were trying to be funny, but ended up being not funny, and not just because the situation itself is seriously unfunny. I simply think that if they can't be funny, they should try for professional.

Quote:

As for "manliness", I think censoring a legitimate representative of the people over the use of a word which apparently makes them squirm is pretty unmanly. Or one could phrase it "adolescent" or "childish", because it is all three.


I see. Then I suppose my objection about the appropriateness of people talking personally about their vaginas and sexual anatomy is childish and unmanly, and I should simply grow up and join in. There should also exist a double standard about whether men can't talk about their anatomy and women can.

I started my menstrual cycle today, there is so much blood everywhere. It is a veritable hemotological ocean coming from my vagina. This is not too much information, because I'm using the correct medical terminology, and would be entirely appropriate conversation for the workplace or for the congressional floor.

However, it seems awfully like personal exhibitionism for me to go off like that. And it's even more abhorrent that making a point about a real and serious issue was just an excuse for me and my personal exhibitionism. This may not be a problem all women face, but it's a real problem for a subset of women, and they have every right to not expect molestation or violation or suspension of their free will when they visit a doctors office. Ultimately my behaviour and personal language is a distraction from them and their problem, which is in desperate need of resolution.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 6:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Good lord, Byte, if you are offended by the language of said bloggers, you obviously haven't been reading any of the material put up by bloggers on the other side!


Hello,

I would bet money that Byte finds them offensive, too.

Quote:

it IS inappropriate to make it a personal issue and to make personal comments about your own anatomy.


I do not agree with this. It's easy to be dismissive when discussing a class of people. Much less so when it is made personal. This representative is very much part of the class, so it is personal and it is appropriate for her to express it personally.

Quote:

That's the problem with this whole debate, is that everyone takes it so personal.


I have often been accused of this, myself. I remember a discussion once about the act of blocking transportation routes as a means of protest, and causing people in a zone to be unable to take their vehicles out of the zone. I immediately felt clausterphobic and trapped in a hot car, with a myriad of responsibilities and medical issues to deal with. I was accused then of taking the issue personally, as though the imagined protest was directed at me as a means of hurting me.

But I find this is the only way to deal with the issue of personal rights. Empathy, and the ability to take it personally, are a means to achieving fairness. If we don't put ourselves in the shoes of the one being harmed, we risk trivializing the harm.

Personal liberties are personal to me, probably because I am a person. A violation is abhorrent to me. Legislating what women can do with their own bodies is a very intimate violation to me, and I don't see the language being used as a mere trick or a tool for manipulation. I don't see it as language designed to embarrass men, but rather to make them understand. I see it very much as describing a thing with accuracy. We are talking about the state forcing its control over the reproductive organs of an individual against their will. It's not rhetoric. It's rape.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 6:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I do not agree with this. It's easy to be dismissive when discussing a class of people. Much less so when it is made personal. This representative is very much part of the class, so it is personal and it is appropriate for her to express it personally.


I'm female, I'm pro-choice, and yet somehow I don't take this issue personally. I don't talk about my vagina and how it's being violated by the laws they're passing.

I also suspect that people would get a lot farther in their dialogue if they tried to approach the issue in the same way.

I am wrong to suggest this as a valid tactic?

And am I wrong for thinking that personal exhibition and shock tactics are ineffective? For this senator, who has been elected into office and has a cushy pay check, probably far more than most of the women she represents, to try to talk about this passage of law and suggest that it is her own self that has been scrutinized and violated?

If she has, perhaps she should talk about that. If not, while I disagree with her being silenced, I have to ask, what exactly is she ADDING to this discussion by pursuing this strategy?

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Monday, June 18, 2012 6:50 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

I do not agree with this. It's easy to be dismissive when discussing a class of people. Much less so when it is made personal. This representative is very much part of the class, so it is personal and it is appropriate for her to express it personally.


I'm female, I'm pro-choice, and yet somehow I don't take this issue personally. I don't talk about my vagina and how it's being violated by the laws they're passing.

I also suspect that people would get a lot farther in their dialogue if they tried to approach the issue in the same way.

I am wrong to suggest this as a valid tactic?



Hello,

Your tactic doubtless has its merits, and I'll not defame you for suggesting it.

However, since the laws in question do indeed create a personal violation for women, I will not defame this representative's 'tactic' in taking those laws as an intimate and personal affront.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 6:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

However, since the laws in question do indeed create a personal violation for women, I will not defame this representative's 'tactic' in taking those laws as an intimate and personal affront.


But it's not a personal violation for all women. I've never been to an abortion clinic, I've never had to carry a baby to term or endure a vaginal ultrasound. I am very willing to support women who have had to go through this horror in their fight against these practices, but I have no grounds to act as if I have experienced what they have.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:01 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

There is no substance to her argument if she is not someone who is in immediate danger.


Hello,

You added whilst I typed.

I disagree again, here. I'm sure a clinical, logical analysis is effective sometimes. However, I do not know that it is the only effective 'tactic' or even the most effective 'tactic.'

One wonders if the world would not be a better place if people stood up and said, "Why are you torturing me, detaining me indefinitely, and refusing my right to trial? Why have I been arrested and abused for the crime of owning a popular Casio timepiece?"

As opposed to "Why are we doing this stuff to those foreigners over there?"

I don't think most of the violations we perform on people in this world would be possible if people were able to take those violations personally and feel personal empathy for those being violated.

I agree with you in not demonizing entire groups of people in blind revenge, but I find that creating a sense of personal empathy with the victim is a strong means of spreading understanding.

I also disagree with you that this representative did this as any form of exhibitionism.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:04 AM

BYTEMITE


Reading more about this, it appears that the other senator, Barb Byrum, proposed a ban on vasectomies as a counterpoint to the ban on abortions.

I can not support any of these tactics. They are distasteful.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

However, since the laws in question do indeed create a personal violation for women, I will not defame this representative's 'tactic' in taking those laws as an intimate and personal affront.


But it's not a personal violation for all women. I've never been to an abortion clinic, I've never had to carry a baby to term or endure a vaginal ultrasound. I am very willing to support women who have had to go through this horror in their fight against these practices, but I have no grounds to act as if I have experienced what they have.



Hello,


I must disagree.

If there is a law about which brands of bubblegum you can chew, then that law violates you even if you do not choose to chew bubblegum.

If there is a law about which books you can read, then that law violates you even if you do not choose to read those books.

If there is a law about which words you can say, then that law violates you even if you have never found occasion to use those words.

The idea of the government intruding into these areas of personal liberty creates a violation in and of itself. Even if you never would have chosen of your own free will to do these things, the removal of your option to choose is the violation. A personal one.

It is like being in a marriage with a wonderful man that you love, a marriage you enjoy and would never wish to leave. And the man informs you one day that he will chain you up and lock you in the basement if you ever try to divorce him. Suddenly, you have been violated.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:12 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I don't think most of the violations we perform on people in this world would be possible if people were able to take those violations personally and feel personal empathy for those being violated.


There is a huge difference between this, and feeling that what they went through has actually happened to you when it hasn't.

While it seems as though this increases support for these women and what they've gone through, it harms them to claim that someone like ME is a victim also of what they went through, it dilutes their pain and the meaning of their suffering. It's an insult to them and their experience to put myself on that same level.

And clearly, not being objective about the situation is ineffective. I really think the two senators brought the wrong weapons to this fight.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:17 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I must disagree.

If there is a law about which brands of bubblegum you can chew, then that law violates you even if you do not choose to chew bubblegum.

If there is a law about which books you can read, then that law violates you even if you do not choose to read those books.

If there is a law about which words you can say, then that law violates you even if you have never found occasion to use those words.

The idea of the government intruding into these areas of personal liberty creates a violation in and of itself. Even if you never would have chosen of your own free will to do these things, the removal of your option to choose is the violation. A personal one.



I don't believe I've ever argued that these laws weren't violations, or that they shouldn't be struck down. I only have argued against acting like they have violated you when they haven't.

I HATE the patriot act, but I don't go around saying that I'm imprisoned in Guantanamo and that they've been torturing me.

Also, I would like to remind you all that I have a physical revulsion against all portrayals of anything sentimental. However, I concede this is fair play considering where I went with that whole blood thing. In view of this, I would suggest that a better example would have been that there might be a law passed where I HAVE to get married, rather than the implausible scenario where I am happily married, though both of those leave a taste of bile in my mouth.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:19 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

There is a huge difference between this, and feeling that what they went through has actually happened to you when it hasn't.


Hello,

Since the woman legislator in question will be subject to these laws, it IS happening to her. Her freedoms are abridged whether or not she is actually having an abortion. As are yours.

Quote:

And clearly, not being objective about the situation is ineffective. I really think the two senators brought the wrong weapons to this fight.


It remains to be seen what the effectiveness of all this will be, and it is impossible to know if clinical objective debate would have worked better. You are certainly free to believe so. I am not so sure.

I place dividing lines on the appropriateness of things in different places than you do.

--Anthony







Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:27 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Since the woman legislator in question will be subject to these laws, it IS happening to her. Her freedoms are abridged whether or not she is actually having an abortion. As are yours.


That doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps I'm simply more literal minded than you are, and this is not a concept I can understand.

Quote:

I place dividing lines on the appropriateness of things in different places than you do.


This appears to be true.


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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I HATE the patriot act, but I don't go around saying that I'm imprisoned in Guantanamo and that they've been torturing me.


Hello,

Well, I do go around saying that they can do these things to me, and that it would be terrible and unjust of them. I do think about being waterboarded and imprisoned and monitored and otherwise violated. I talk to people about this happening to them, or their family.

The Patriot act, in fact, violates us all in a personal way. Even if its hammer has not yet fallen upon each of us as individuals, we all lie under its shadow. Freedoms and Rights are gone. I have never been abused this way, but it is now legal to abuse me in this way. And so 'why do you want to violate me' is a very valid question for me to ask.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Well, I do go around saying that they can do these things to me, and that it would be terrible and unjust of them.


Sure, but it doesn't mean you've actually BEEN waterboarded. So if someone is concerned about vaginal ultrasounds but she's never had one, it seems like a bizarre failure of logic to me for her to ask why people are so interested in her anatomy.

She could find someone who has a story about abortion, maybe it was a medical complication, maybe her pregnancy was forced on her or there was some other reason. She could then ask people "why are you so interested in her vagina?" and I would agree with her and I would hope that supporters of these measures would feel shame.

But when she makes it about herself, I just don't understand it.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:46 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Well, I do go around saying that they can do these things to me, and that it would be terrible and unjust of them.


Sure, but it doesn't mean you've actually BEEN waterboarded. So if someone is concerned about vaginal ultrasounds but she's never had one, it seems like a bizarre failure of logic to me for her to ask why people are so interested in her anatomy.



Hello,

Well, they are creating laws regarding her anatomy, so they seem fairly interested to me.

If I created a law talking about the mandatory anal probe you must receive when being treated for influenza, you'd surely wonder why I was interested in your anus even if you'd never had the flu.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 7:52 AM

BYTEMITE


I no longer understand this conversation. I will bow out.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 8:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I no longer understand this conversation. I will bow out.



Hello,

I appreciate the effort to grok, even if it was not achieved. I'm sorry I could not meet you. I suspect we have some fundamental differences in the way we cognate and process information.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 8:39 AM

BYTEMITE


Sorry Anthony. :(

And it occurs to me that I may also have unwittingly caused offense to others in my lack of understanding, and I am sorry for that as well. As well as for the menstrual thing, which was intended to repel and disgust.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 8:44 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Censoring a fellow elected official is not okay with me, and 50 percent of people have vaginas, so it doesn't seem like it would be a big issue to mention them.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 8:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Sorry Anthony. :(

And it occurs to me that I may also have unwittingly caused offense to others in my lack of understanding, and I am sorry for that as well. As well as for the menstrual thing, which was intended to repel and disgust.



Hello,

Intentions mean a lot to me. I know your intention is not to harm anyone or place them in distress, so I am not upset.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 18, 2012 9:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I'm sorry, but how is this misogynistic again?

it's a terrible affront to women to ask for some measure of decency and decorum?




If I read correctly, this woman was talking about an abortion law. How is using the word vagina in that context not appropriate, how is it even avoidable, and how is it lacking in decency and decorum to use it?

This is not a slur, it is a medical term describing female anatomy as neutrally as possible. Treating it like an offensive word is.. yeah, pretty much mysogynistic, because it implies that the entire concept of a vagina is offensive and inappropriate. In a speech regarding abortion.

You can see that there's some contradictory tension in this situation, right?



Why now ? Why be so explicit and graphic ? There are lots of things folks do and parts of folks bodies which , even if technical and clinically accurate, don't need to be brought up in the formal conversation taking place while Congress is in session.

This is the sort of mindless, trivial BS the Left wastes time with arguing over, when there are actual, real issues which need being addressed, long before we start talking about vaginas and the like.

"why are you all so interested in my vagina," ...

YOURS ? Trust me, ma'am.. I'm not. And I wish you'd never have brought that into the discussion, at all.



* corrected *


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, June 18, 2012 9:05 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Sure, but it doesn't mean you've actually BEEN waterboarded.

Hmm, I could explain it with a hypothetical where the UK government passed a law forbidding all citizens to date or marry Spanish nationals. Now I'm not dating a spanish chick, nor am I particularly likely to - but I would still feel this as a violation. Partly because there would be some poor couples who were directly affected and I would be outraged. But also, more personally to me - who is my government to tell me who I can or cannot fall in love with? I would feel that the world, with all of its choices and possibilities had been shrunken for me.

A similar thing if the government decided not to outright ban marrying Spanish nationals, but merely to levy a heavy tax on the practice. Here the government isn't completely blocking my choices, but it is penalising them. Again, I would feel oppressed by this.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 9:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree Anthony, as well as with everything else you have written. There appears to be an obvious difference between how you and I view issues such as this and how Byte does. Makes communication difficult.
Quote:

The Patriot act, in fact, violates us all in a personal way. Even if its hammer has not yet fallen upon each of us as individuals, we all lie under its shadow. Freedoms and Rights are gone. I have never been abused this way, but it is now legal to abuse me in this way. And so 'why do you want to violate me' is a very valid question for me to ask.
That can be applied to all these laws the Republicans have passed/are passing about women and contraception/abortion/etc., if you think about it. I'm sorry Byte can't grasp what we're trying to say...I wish I could explain it better.

How about someone who lives in the North, who has never been a slave, will never be a slave, doesn't have to drink from a different fountain, etc., etc. Should he have no interest in civil rights because it doesn't apply to him? That's probably the closest I can come. As you know, I feel VERY strongly about this issue, for my own reasons. My mother went through something horrible and degrading, and if she hadn't had to, I would (not just "might") have brothers and sisters. She never wanted only one child. So in a way it does affect me, tho' not my body personally.

But it's more than that. Tho' I have no children of my own, I do think about those who come after us. Hell, even now many, many women don't have "choice"--although it's perfectly legal, the anti-choice crowd has found ways to make it essentially IMPOSSIBLE nonetheless. So they ARE abriging the rights of all women, and I think about the women coming after us, if they manage to complete their agenda. They'll be in the same place as my mother was back in the 1940s, and that's just plain WRONG. Some women are already IN that position, which is also wrong. Ergo, I take it personally.

Given you see what she did as exhibitionism and a bad "tactic", Byte, what tactic would you suggest? Bear in mind that all the rational, reasonable tactics one would come up with HAVE BEEN USED, many times, to rationally discuss the issue and attempt to communicate with these people. None of them have TOUCHED the determination on the right of restricting women's rights to abortion--to the point where a woman using CONTRACEPTION can be fired from her job for doing so! The situation has gotten so far beyond ANYTHING rational, and nothing rational has made a dent in it, what options are left open?

The idea of bringing into it men's choices about their bodies may seem egregious to you, but it was an attempt to show how bad this is by making it personal to MEN; to show how absurd and ridiculous--and wrong--it is to legislate things which are very personal and should have nothing to do with anyone but the person making the decision.

Last night I saw a rerun of Law & Order where a young woman and her boyfriend were on trial for him having beaten her up. It was her decision that he do so in order to engender a miscarriage, which it did. She had gone to a supposed clinic--had to move to New York to even go to one from somewhere in the Midwest. At the clinic she was told she had a virus or something, so to come back when she felt well. She called the clinic EVERY DAY for a couple of weeks to try and get an appointment...by then it was too late. She had no option but to carry the child to term (and her father was such that he would have thrown her out on her own if he'd found out) or find some means of aborting. Essentially, her entire life was at stake. She decided to get her boyfriend to help her miscarry...her only other options by then were a back-street abortion (which now exists as it did in my mother's time, unbelievably, and which cost a lot) or a coat hanger. That IS a horrific situation which is happening all the time.

As it turned out, the nurse at the clinic had taken her temperature initially and knew she was fine, and it was the doctor, a pro-life fanatic, who told the nurse to tell her she was ill, then not make an appointment for her until it was too late. The nurse quit, and cried on the stand about how she'd been called every day by the girl, three times a day sometimes, trying to get an appointment.

They found the couple guilty, by the way, but gave them minimum sentences. Then the Law & Order folks went after the doctor, and put him out of business, as WELL as charging him with the death of the fetus.

This IS HAPPENING in America today. Fake "clinics" have been set up by pro-lifers to trick women into going to them, in order to keep them from going to a real clinic. Many, many very REAL "tactics" are being done to force women to bear the child, and this against the federal LAW that abortions are legal. State legislators who were elected on the promise of jobs, jobs, jobs, never intended to do anything about jobs; once they got in power, they began passing STATE laws to make abortion essentially impossible.

Given all this, how you can condemn women for trying any tactic they can find to try and stop this from happening is beyond me. I feel for all those women, whose lives will be forever changed if they are forced to have a child, especially out of wedlock. There IS no "tactic" or anything else which will get through to these people; they have an agenda which no reason will reach. So efforts to show how absurd and wrong such laws are, and using the medical terminology for what is being done (which the pro-lifers avoid at all costs, except to utilize AGAINST abortion) is so far from egregious, compared to what is being done, that there is no comparison to me. The only thing it can accomplish is to show the public what's happening; that's about the only recourse anyone has to fight back at this point where so many state legislators and governors have Republicans in power.

We can't fight back legally, abortion already IS legal. We can't pass laws, THEY have the power, and even if a bill is passed, governors veto it. What recourse exactly IS there aside from appealing to the public to help them see how insane this situation is? The simple word "vagina" making an elected official unable to speak for her constituents is incredibly wrong, in my opinion. I'll bet she didn't even expect it; who would expect to be barred "indefinitely" for using a medical term to argue against a medical practice which is wrong?

So you've never been in the position to have any of this happen to you. Lucky you; neither have I. But my imagination can easily empathize with the THOUSANDS of women it IS happening to every day in our country, and I'm quite willing to speak up against this hideous situation. You appear to be looking at the small picture; I hope you can see the big picture where this is concerned.


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Monday, June 18, 2012 9:28 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I'm sorry, but how is this misogynistic again?

The Congress somehow manages to survive some 225 years w/ out the word 'vagina' uttered on the floor, or in the records, and NOW it's a terrible affront to women to ask for some measure of decency and decorum?




If I read correctly, this woman was talking about an abortion law. How is using the word vagina in that context not appropriate, how is it even avoidable, and how is it lacking in decency and decorum to use it?

This is not a slur, it is a medical term describing female anatomy as neutrally as possible. Treating it like an offensive word is.. yeah, pretty much mysogynistic, because it implies that the entire concept of a vagina is offensive and inappropriate. In a speech regarding abortion.

You can see that there's some contradictory tension in this situation, right?



It's unnecessary, and , as I stated before, incredibly the word has been left off the floor of the Congress for 225 years, even through the Roe v Wade era. Why now ? Why be so explicit and graphic ? There are lots of things folks do and parts of folks bodies which , even if technical and clinically accurate, don't need to be brought up in the formal conversation taking place while Congress is in session.

This is the sort of mindless, trivial BS the Left wastes time with arguing over, when there are actual, real issues which need being addressed, long before we start talking about vaginas and the like.

"why are you all so interested in my vagina," ...

YOURS ? Trust me, ma'am.. I'm not. And I wish you'd never have brought that into the discussion, at all.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall



Ah, using correct words is now "trivial". Those poor, poor men, having to hear such a scray word. It must have been very traumatic to them.

Good ol' Rappy. Carry that water, boy!


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, June 18, 2012 9:44 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

How about someone who lives in the North, who has never been a slave, will never be a slave, doesn't have to drink from a different fountain, etc., etc. Should he have no interest in civil rights because it doesn't apply to him?


Whoa now. Again, I never said that it wasn't important and wouldn't support these women and their efforts against these practices. I said that I don't have a personal stake in the issue. That's a big difference.

I said I would bow out, but I couldn't let it be implied that I don't care about this or let that stand. Not taking something personally is not at all the same as not caring about it. What I was specifically discussing here was the fact that some people think that being a member of a group is enough basis to declare that they have some kind of shared trauma. But other people are the ones who have been hurt and I must help them, I do not help them by imagining that I myself have been somehow injured.

Quote:

The situation has gotten so far beyond ANYTHING rational, and nothing rational has made a dent in it, what options are left open?


Certainly fighting fire with fire is not the best option we can come up with. In the very least don't let hateful rhetoric become the defining aspect of this issue. I think that in an issue like this it is even MORE important to be seen as rational and thinking - being overemotional plays into the hands of people who ARE actually misogynists and think that women couldn't find a rational thought with two hands. It gives fuel to those people who would tell women to sit down, shut up, and get back in the kitchen. THAT is why proper conduct is so important here.

Before you try to tell me about the bigger picture here and assume the reason I don't agree with you is because I just don't care, you should give that angle some consideration.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 10:02 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

How about someone who lives in the North, who has never been a slave, will never be a slave, doesn't have to drink from a different fountain, etc., etc. Should he have no interest in civil rights because it doesn't apply to him?


Whoa now. Again, I never said that it wasn't important and wouldn't support these women and their efforts against these practices. I said that I don't have a personal stake in the issue. That's a big difference.


That's absolutely fine if you don't. But what's true of you is not true of everyone. Especially these legislators! It is their job to represent, to speak for, the people who elected them. Even if they don't have a 5:30 appt for an abortion today, so their personal vaginas are not involved at the moment, damned sure the vaginas of at least some of their constituents are. They have not only a right, but a responsibility to speak up the woman whose rights are being attacked.

As for "hate speech" that is "improper" - I disagree. Others may may react to the word "vagina" with feelings of disgust or discomfort, but that's all in them. Which is the true irony of this - these men are freaked by the word, and freaked by having to deal with a woman attached to an actual non-ignored vagina, yet they feel no compunctions about forcing their laws all over her and it. About time somebody started reminding the world that vaginas exist, can be spoken of, are attached to women who have voices and rights. Which I believe was her point. Personalizing this matter is damned well necessary, imho.

Now Bytemite, please realize that I have no problem with you feeling as you do. If this is not personal to you, that is fine. But please don't expect everyone to act as you would. And please please do not join those who are trying to silence other women by labeling their arguments as improper conduct and hateful rhetoric. Each woman has every right to speak up and defend her ownership of her own vagina with whatever words she deems necessary.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 10:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


How exactly is using the word "vagina" considered "hateful rhetoric", "overemotional" and irrational and unthinking? That's what I find confusing; it seems as if you're saying her use of that word was something it is not. To me, it seems such a word is specific in its meaning and is terminology which WOULD be appropriate, as opposed to all the other idiosyncratic terms for the same thing. What more accurate/less offensive word is there than vagina?

Googling a synonym for vagina, I found:
Quote:

beaver (taboo slang) box (taboo slang) crack (taboo slang) cunt (taboo) fanny (Brit. taboo slang) hole (taboo slang) minge (Brit. taboo) muff (taboo slang) pussy (taboo slang) quim (Brit. taboo) snatch (taboo slang) twat (taboo slang) vulva, yoni
The only acceptable term I found was "female genetalia"--do you really think they'd have found that any less offensive? All the others are considered "taboo slang"... (there are 87 listed at http://namingschemes.com/Vagina_Synonyms , but most of them wouldn't be understood, and a bunch at http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wikisaurus:vagina], but the same goes for many of them, and TONS at http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=synonyms%3A%20vagina , ditto)

I never said or inferred that you didn't CARE about, wouldn't support or that it wasn't important, nor would I. You misunderstood. I was trying to say that, given everything else has been tried to no avail, that there are few avenues left open to oppose what's happening, and how heinous what's happening IS, that the tactics used were an attempt to show how absurd, intrusive and wrong it is by making it about MEN, and to discuss it using the correct terminology. The fact that she WAS censored--I'll bet it wasn't anything she expected and it has nothing to do with her intent--is what is the actual absurdity of the situation, and maddening in that it is an obvious abuse of power, and that censoring her "indefinitely" is a flagrant abuse of power.

In other words, what I've been trying to impart all along is that for a bunch of Republican male legislators to indefinitely censor a legitimate representative for simply using the word "vagina", especially given they are legislating around just that, and given the extremely serious and wrong actions around the issue itself, is unconscionable and, well, stupid, childish, mysogynistic and a perfect representation of their mentality.

ETA: Wow! I was typing while Mal4 posted, and I'm impressed. She said it FAR better than any argument I could make on the issue, so "What she said!" A lot of us feel strongly on this issue, Byte--I would hazard a guess more women do than do not, if they know about it (which far too many do NOT because it DOESN'T affect them personally)--and whether it's personal to us individually or not doesn't even come into it. What these men are doing is monstrous, atrocious and intolerable--I assume those words wouldn't have landed on their ears much less "improperly".


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Monday, June 18, 2012 10:21 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Especially these legislators! It is their job to represent, to speak for, the people who elected them. Even if they don't have a 5:30 appt for an abortion today, so their personal vaginas are not involved at the moment, damned sure the vaginas of at least some of their constituents are. They have not only a right, but a responsibility to speak up the woman whose rights are being attacked.


Hmm. This is potentially convincing. And I must also consider my natural hatred for all politicians and my assumption that they are pampered and indulged and playing to an audience and how that factors in to my reaction.

I'll think about this.

Quote:

As for "hate speech" that is "improper" - I disagree. Others may may react to the word "vagina" with feelings of disgust or discomfort,


Hateful rhetoric was more directed at the language in the posted article and list. There's some stuff in there that's seriously over-generalized and potentially offensive to all guys.

However, I do still think using vagina in that context was undignified and illogical, and also represents a disconnect nowadays where people seem to lack a TMI sense. Lastly, I still think it's a counter-productive tactic, though if the politician makes it clear she's speaking on behalf of her constituents I might judge this less harshly.

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Monday, June 18, 2012 10:25 AM

BYTEMITE


Niki: same thing I said to Mal4Prez.

Quote:

Hateful rhetoric was more directed at the language in the posted article and list. There's some stuff in there that's seriously over-generalized and potentially offensive to all guys.

However, I do still think using vagina in that context was undignified and illogical, and also represents a disconnect nowadays where people seem to lack a TMI sense. Lastly, I still think it's a counter-productive tactic, though if the politician makes it clear she's speaking on behalf of her constituents I might judge this less harshly.


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