Re: Dressage by Niki2

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

The sport is good enough for two of our top movie stars to talk about it aboard a U.S. Nuclear Submarine during the climax of a dramatic post-cold-war flick.

Sadly, I do not find it entertaining. My favorite horse sport is very bad for the horse and rider, and is a guilty pleasure.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, July 27, 2012 2:53 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

The sport is good enough for two of our top movie stars to talk about it aboard a U.S. Nuclear Submarine during the climax of a dramatic post-cold-war flick.

Sadly, I do not find it entertaining. My favorite horse sport is very bad for the horse and rider, and is a guilty pleasure.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

Jousting?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Friday, July 27, 2012 3:51 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Niki,

You do realize that the reason folks are ripping on dressage is that Ann Romney is involved, and one of her horses is competing in the Olympics. She apparently took it up as therapy for her multiple sclerosis.

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Friday, July 27, 2012 3:51 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Jousting?

Hello,

Yeah. I'm a sucker for historical romanticism. I think it's the kid in me.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, July 27, 2012 4:01 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Jousting?

Hello,

Yeah. I'm a sucker for historical romanticism. I think it's the kid in me.

--Anthony

Official sport of Maryland.

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Friday, August 3, 2012 6:44 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Geezer; no, the issue is that Romney claimed Rafalca as a $77,000 BUSINESS EXPENSE, which makes no sense unless the Romney's are in the dressage BUSINESS, which I don't believe they are. If they are, Romney could explain it perfectly reasonably. Which he has not been willing to do. For aother, the horse is only PARTLY OWNED by the Romneys...

Nobody is going after Ann Romney; in the first place, there's no reason to, in the second, it's what she does to deal with her MS, which nobody would DARE criticize, for good reason. It's the "elitism" of the sport and, most importantly, why Romney claimed it as a business expense, which people are making a big deal out of. It's cheap politics, nothing more.

Although she looked better to me than many of the other contestants, she only placed 13th. We'll see if she advances to the Grand Prix Special.

Quote:
Conservatives are mortified at what they see as the poor political strategy of having a horse participate in something that, according to the United States Dressage Federation, can cost upwards of $50,000 to compete at such a high level.

"I'm not sure why the horse has to be in the most upper-class hoity-toity Olympic event ever invented," conservative commentator Charles Krauthammer said on Fox News recently. "It's unnecessary."

"Poor political strategy" my ass. Why in hell should the woman, who worked long and hard on getting to an Olympic event, forego that because her husband is running for President? Fuck Krauthammer, and all the pundits on the left AND right making hay on this.

And yes, I watched, and yes, it's comes across pretty boring on TV (haute ecole is far more interesting, and unless you know what to look for, Olympic dressage just looks like a horse going around a circle), but as for ridiculous Olympic events, I mean, come on, HURLING?!?! I know there's no real interest in Rafalca, which is fine--I find numerous sports boring as hell--but it's a difficult sport no less demanding than many others.

And Rafalca is gorgeous! So there!

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Friday, August 3, 2012 7:07 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
as for ridiculous Olympic events, I mean, come on, HURLING?!?!

Hello,

This is the reference I was able to find for Hurling.

Quote:
Hurling (Irish: Iománaíocht/Iomáint) is an outdoor team game of ancient Gaelic origin, administered by the Gaelic Athletic Association. The game has prehistoric origins, has been played for over 9,000 years,[1] and is thought to be the world's fastest field team game in terms of game play.[1][2][3] One of Ireland's native Gaelic games, it shares a number of features with Gaelic football, such as the field and goals, number of players, and much terminology. There is a similar game for women called camogie (camógaíocht). It shares a common Gaelic root with the sport of shinty (camanachd) which is played predominantly in Scotland.

The object of the game is for players to use a wooden stick called a hurley (in Irish a camán, pronounced /'kæm?n/) to hit a small ball called a sliotar (play /'?l?t?r/) between the opponents' goalposts either over the crossbar for one point, or under the crossbar into a net guarded by a goalkeeper for one goal, which is equivalent to three points. The sliotar can be caught in the hand and carried for not more than four steps, struck in the air, or struck on the ground with the hurley. It can be kicked or slapped with an open hand (the hand pass) for short-range passing. A player who wants to carry the ball for more than four steps has to bounce or balance the sliotar on the end of the stick and the ball can only be handled twice while in his possession.

Quote:
Hurling was featured in the Summer Olympic Games unofficial programme in 1904.

Is this what you are referring to?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, August 3, 2012 7:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I'm sorry, ever time you say the words "Olympic" and "Hurling" together, my brain shorts out and throws up (pun oh-so-intended) re-runs of OctoberFest 1988....
You do not wanna know.

-Frem

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Friday, August 3, 2012 9:02 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Apologies; I thought it was an Olympic sport. Obviously I was wrong. Good. In my opinion, it is a particularly stupid "sport" and, while it requires some talents and abilities, to be in the Olympics alongside sports which require physical endurance and years of hard work would be ridiculous.

How about "rhythmic gymnastics" instead? It may well take physical abilities, but all the twirling ribbons and hoops...I mean, really...

Dressage is #1 on one list of "The 10 Dumbest 'Sports' in the Olympics"...I realize most people don't "get" dressage, but that's because it looks just like they described it: "...a person sitting atop a horse as it prances, pirouettes and jumps unnaturally around a ring." For one thing, it's not unnatural. It incorporates every single move horses do naturally, just exaggerated. For another, it's been around for 2,000 years. Lastly, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Personally I find Synchronized Swimming pretty stupid (even tho' I was involved in it and loved it as a youngster). You think dressage is stupid...look at the crowds in the video. It's only a little over 1 minute and doesn't show her most spectacular move, but she's still amazing. Tho' the choice of hip-hop music was silly, Blue Hors Matinee was one of a kind, and truly spectacular.

Her tempe pass transition at :32 is absolutely spectacular to someone who understands dressage, and incredibly difficult for the horse (which brought the comment "what a dream of a transition" from the commentator). People don't "get" that the horses adore it too, they are real showmen--here's a longer version if anyone gives a shit enough to watch, and you can see her tail going all over the place...she's LOVING what she's doing, and often you can see him actually keeping time with the music. At 1:14 she does her most beautiful move: the half pass. Her reach is incredible!

Matinee knocked everyone's socks of at the '06 World Equestrian Games , but had to pull from the Olympics in '08 and was retired due to the injury, then died in '09 from a paddock incident that broke her leg. She was absolutely spectacular; I don't think we'll see her like for a long time to come. Her fans were heartbroken, myself included...I see there are even RIP videos to honor her on Youtube! She made Denmark proud.

Dressage horses enjoy what they do FAR more than jumpers--if you watch the two events, it's pretty obvious. They ARE, admittedly, dancers, and all dancers love dancing.

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Friday, August 3, 2012 9:43 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Apologies; I thought [hurling] was an Olympic sport. Obviously I was wrong. Good.

Perhaps you were thinking of curling, which is an event in the winter Games.

I've seen one of those videos of Matinee before, on Cute Overload. Watching horses dance around makes me pretty happy, actually.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Friday, August 3, 2012 9:43 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Perhaps we should just agree not to crap on any sport that people enjoy and have spent a great deal of time practicing for.

That theme probably gets lost when we make fun of two sports to defend one.

And I'll add that the rhythmic beats of hip hop lend themselves well to a prancing pony.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, August 3, 2012 9:48 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rose, you're absolutely right; again, my apologies, I WAS thinking of curling. And yes, I can't help smiling when I watch a GOOD dressage horse in action. Matinee was so fantastic, I'm just positive she FELT the music, she was so often perfectly in time with it.

Anthony, you say that, then call her a "prancing pony". In this case, I don't appreciate your satire. Matinee was magnificent, Denmark adored her, and millions of us miss her. She was no "prancing pony", she was an unmatched master. I dare you to watch the second video and call her a "prancing pony"!

Sorry, tho'...the recent putdowns of dressage have me pissed off. I wish they'd just leave it alone.

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Friday, August 3, 2012 9:48 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Apologies; I thought [hurling] was an Olympic sport. Obviously I was wrong. Good.

Perhaps you were thinking of curling, which is an event in the winter Games.

I've seen one of those videos of Matinee before, on Cute Overload. Watching horses dance around makes me pretty happy, actually.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

Hello,

Surely no one would mock Curling?!

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, August 3, 2012 9:53 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I dare you to watch the second video and call her a "prancing pony"!

Hello,

I just watched it. Is prancing the wrong word? Should it be skipping, jumping, or dancing?

I thought prancing was the appropriate word for use with horses.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, August 3, 2012 9:54 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yup, always seemed to me like a totally ridiculous "sport". Doesn't look like they have to work too hard to prepare for it, either.

I could never undestand what would make someone want to take up curling...as a serious Olympic sport even! But then, to each his own.

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Friday, August 3, 2012 10:05 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Geezer; no, the issue is that Romney claimed Rafalca as a $77,000 BUSINESS EXPENSE, which makes no sense unless the Romney's are in the dressage BUSINESS, which I don't believe they are. If they are, Romney could explain it perfectly reasonably. Which he has not been willing to do. For aother, the horse is only PARTLY OWNED by the Romneys...

What's to explain?

Per the N.Y. Times, the horse is owned by a partnership that includes Mrs. Romney, Amy Ebeling (wife of the trainer), and Beth Meyer (who the Times apparently believes we'll know, since they provide no info on her). Many horses and stables are owned by partnerships; just look who owns many of the horses running for the Triple Crown. If they're like most folks in the horse business - dressage, thoroughbred, quarterhorse, jumper, whatever - they expect to either be able to sell the horses or their offspring at a profit. Some don't make a profit every year.

ETA: link to NYT article. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/26/sports/olympics/ann-romneys-horse-pr
epares-for-olympic-debut.html?pagewanted=all

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Friday, August 3, 2012 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
How about "rhythmic gymnastics" instead? It may well take physical abilities, but all the twirling ribbons and hoops...I mean, really...

Niki, I'm going to have to pretend you didn't say that.

No, actually, I'm not. The fact that you dismiss rhythmic gymnastics, which I find to be gorgeous and fucking difficult, just because there are some silly ribbons involved, makes you just as bad as the people dissing dressage. And you ask for respect?

I used to ride competitively as a teen (show-jumping) and I enjoy the beauty of horses, but I find it highly suspect to call horses "competitors" or "athletes", since they do not have the awareness of competition that humans do. I am so disappointed that you easily call these horses dancers, but can't extend the same respect to actual HUMAN BEINGS who have trained their asses off to do the most dance-based sport in the Olympics. And if you think those ribbons are dumb, try doing any of that yourself. (I was also heavy into colorguard in high school. I KNOW how hard it is.)

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Friday, August 3, 2012 7:14 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh irony, Gymnastics... that was another of the Thou-Shalt-Not classes I took back in the day, right up there with Home Ec, which was considered "Unmanly", to which I said to them Macho assholes if they thought so, try DOING any of it!
As with Home Ec, having the guts/gall to actually take the class did no harm to my feminine popularity in those days either, so it wasn't just the "Unmanlyness" of it which had pissed the Jocks off.

Looking back though, I am damn thankful I *did* take it, cause I have not only refined a lot of it into both the brawling style I use for self-defense, and teach, having those abilities has make it SUBSTANTIALLY easier to cope with crippling disabilities and damage that would have otherwise rendered me less capable than I am.

Believe me, I know how bloody hard it is, and just how much physical strength, endurance, and flexibilty that stuff requires!

-Frem

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 7:10 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mal4, it was my opinion, just as many have expressed their opinion that dressage is the silliest form of Olympic competition. I have no doubt they work very, very hard to get in physical shape and learn their sport, I just said to me it looks silly. I misspoke if I gave the impression that it doesn't take rigorous training or require a high degree of physicality and strength. I MEANT to imply that it looks silly to me, as dressage looks to others. We all have our favorite and least favorite Olympic sports (if we care enough to have one), so my opinion is no more than that.

Dressage

Quote:
takes the natural movements a horse can make and structures them into exercises. Its practitioners sometimes describe the activity as a religious experience. In any case, it is mentally and physically challenging for horse and rider alike.

As to competitors, of coure they have awareness of that. All animals do. I guess that's my opinion, too, but dog trainers and many other forms of animal trainers will tell you there are those who are real showmen, and dressage is no different.

As for physical training, the HUMAN BEINGS train just as hard and as physically as the horses. It takes years and a LOT of physicality on the part of the rider to ride in competition.

Quote:
Great dressage riders and trainers may have different training philosophies and different strategies when it comes to their horses, but all of them have one thing in common, and that is a high degree of personal physical fitness. An effective rider has a great deal of core strength in particular, that strength which holds us in balance over the horse. I always think of the rider’s seat as going from mid thigh to up to the rib cage, and this area of the rider must be strong enough to hold the rider from coming off balance laterally and longitudinally. A strong core that really helps the rider balance also allows the correct muscles to relax to the degree necessary to sit with the horse’s movement. This in turn helps the rider control all the aids, and use them in a clear and precise way.

Google phsycial training dressage and you'll find tons of suggested exercises to strengthen the rider.

Quote:
Dressage is deceptive. It may look easy, but to do it well is incredibly difficult. It takes years of dedication and training to reach the ‘Grand Prix’ (GP) level seen at the Olympics. Equestrianism is the only Olympic sport in which men and women compete against each other on equal terms, and the only one to team up athletes with animals. http://www.horseandcountry.tv/article/what-dressage

The physicality of sitting stock still and using only the tiniest movements of your thighs and hands to direct the horse is very difficult and hard on the rider if they are not in excellent physical condition; it's also just plain difficult, period, to do so. At the Spanish School, both horse and rider spend at least as many years training as many, if not most, other forms of Olympic sport. At the Spanish Riding School,

Quote:
The riders, too, are carefully schooled. They first work on the longe without stirrups and reins on well-trained horses for up to 3 years, to teach a balanced and independent seat. They are then allowed to control the animals themselves, under the eye of an experienced rider, until they can perform the high school movements. With intensive training, this will take 2–4 years. The rider is then allowed to train a young stallion from unbroken up to High School, a process that usually takes 4–6 additional years.

From one competitor:

Quote:
...every time I explain dressage to people, they all have the same reaction. They laugh, say something about princesses and horse dancing, and then curl their arms at the elbows and pretend their hands are hooves.

Dressage is often called “horse ballet” because it appears dainty and sophisticated, and the top hat that riders wear is only slightly less ridiculous than the tutu. That’s a pretty apt comparison. Ballet is beautiful but strenuous, and its dancers must execute precise movements with a level of grace that masks the athleticism required to perform them. Dressage is exactly like that, although not so bad that it turns your toes black and blue.

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...it will take a minimum of 6 to 8 years for a 15 or 16 year old candidate to go through the training program....It may require as long as 10 – 12 years!

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....it does take a lot of strength to ride dressage - core strength & stability is paramount (as in ballet or any other form of physical activity that requires poise)

Most people, I would guess, see show jumping as more relevant and less "silly" than dressage. These from horse people in answer to the question "Which is more difficult, show jumping or dressage?"

Quote:
"I'm a show jumper. All the rider has to do is turn the horse, send it forward when they need to and slow it down when they need to. It's that simple. But dressage that's harder you've got to sit correctly know all the correct commands for the certain moves be able to sit in that saddle and keep the horse going forward. In dressage the rider has to be at one with the horse, calm and peaceful, but showjumping is the complete opposite."

"Dressage. The horse I was riding and training picked up jumping fairly easy and quickly . But 5months on we are still learning simple dressage moves . Also in dressage there are more harder movements which can take ages to do."

"I would say dressage. with showjumping most people with decent balance and leg strength can hang on over a jump even if they dont look that great :L but with dressage everything has to be so precise and the horse has to learn to be sensitive to the slightest movement :)"

"they both need lots of patience and practice to get good at both but id say dressage will tend to be more physically and mentally demanding on the horse and rider"

"Depends on the horse, i would say.. It would depend on the horses skills. But as far as which is physically harder, i would say Dressage."

A few of the comments said they were equal, but not one single commentor chose jumping as the more difficult, tho' to many casual observers jumping looks more difficult. But the above is from HORSE PEOPLE, who know more than I do, certainly.

Dressage is incredibly difficult for horses. Although there is not a single movement in dressage which is unnatural--just watch a colt or young horse in the pasture, and you will see every move utilized in dressage. Nonetheless, refining those moves into what it becomes is very hard and takes years and years to train both horse and rider to a competitive level.

It's also extremely hard physically for the horse, as should be obvious, so I won't rattle on about that. But to say they aren't athletes IS the equivalent of saying rhythmic gynmasts aren't athletes. In some ways, they are MORE athletic, because it takes enormous strength and will to do moves which, yes, are natural, but which are exaggerated, repetitive and require a lot of physical difficulty for something the size of a horse.

Believe me, they think and make decisions themselve too, it's not mechanical. They have to be extremely sensitive to the cues, and more than once I've seen horses misread a cue, then go back and get it right, and other times anticipate a cue before the rider even gives it.

Quote:
What makes all horses alike is that a horse never forgets what has been well established during his training....What they know, they know forever. Once established in his brain, the horse never forgets.

I could go on and on; the point is it's very difficult, takes a lot of patience and physicality on the part of both horse and rider, and takes a horse with the right temperament and physicality to become a serious contender. Horses that are good enough for the Olympics are frequently quite sensitive and high strung; they make the best horses for that sport, particularly because of their sensitivity.

From what I have seen over the years, show dressage horses know they're on show and get a lot of satisfaction from the applause; Matinee in particular was a real showman, you could SEE her enjoyment of what she was doing and how she preened at the applause from the audience. Nobody will ever tell me either horses or dogs don't compete and aren't aware they are doing so. Certainly there are some that don't, but many do.

In essence, I think you have as little understanding of what goes into dressage for both horse and rider as I do for rhythmic gymnastics. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong, it's merely about the understanding of the sport. I would never dismiss the physicality, strength and athleticism of rhythmic gymnastics; I would hope the same is true for you regarding dressage.

ETA: When it comes to respecting a sport, dressage is one of the oldest sports in Olympics. Dressage as a considered approach to training horses for riding began with the Ancient Greeks, in particular the Athenian Cavalry Commander Xenephon, who is responsible for the first recorded writings on dressage training. He wrote his treatise 'on the Art of Horsemanship' in 360 BC. There are other Olympic sports which are older, but that's a pretty rich history of over 2300 years. For me, that fact alone makes it deserving of respect.

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 11:21 AM

KWICKO

Still trying to figure out why it is that John Kerry was an "elitist" for windsurfing, but Romney writes off $77k on a dancing horse, puts a car elevator in his mansion, and claims that making $375,000 for speaking engagements "isn't a lot of money", and he's somehow seen by the right as NOT an elitist.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 3:58 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Aw, c'mon, Mike, you know full well it's because Romney is a Republican, and for no other reason whatsoever. It's all in the eyes of the beholder...aside from which, Romney's not actually "involved" in dressage, he's quick to point out. It's his wife's hobby and he doesn't even know what time the trials were held and he's not going to go and he supports his wife but has no interest himself and oh PLEASE stop talking about it, I can't think of any other way to distance myself from it and, and, and...

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 6:03 PM

It must be said...

I watched rhythmic gymnastics this morning, which I only ever catch in the Olympics and I missed 2008. So it's been a while. I must report that I did not find anything silly about it. At all. Even the ribbons, which were fucking gorgeous. The ribbons create moving frames around bodies, and those moving bodies have traits that most "artistic" gymnasts are completely lacking: good lines, musicality, and good feet. Bonus: rhythmic has none of that silly pose/pose/chin flick/wrist flick/back arch/pose shit that fills all the gaps in regular gymnastics. I hate that stuff!

Which is to say: I understand you've backed off your criticism a little Niki, but I think you could still find a deeper understanding of "silliness" as applied to sports. It is ALL FUCKING SILLY. (Compare the Olympics to survival in the wild. Who cares if you can juggle a hula-hoop or prance a pretty blonde horse. The lion will devour either one, just maybe it'll pause to mock the stupidity of the performing horses/humans as it picks its teeth afterward.)

Dressage horse are really, really, damned silly, no matter how pretty and skilled they are -- to people who aren't into horses, that is. Rhythmic gymnastics is completely whacked out fluffy -- to people who don't recognize and enjoy balletic lines and feats of flexibility, balance, timing, artistry, and strength. Tumbling gymnastics is annoying to people like me who just aren't into tricks, like how many times can you flip? but would rather see artistry. Track is silly to people who think: what is the big damn deal about running in a straight line? (Which doesn't include me - I think the athletic events are the most *pure* of the Olympics).

My point is: don't take it so damned personally Niki. Dressage is silly. Yes it is. It is a bunch a fucking ponies prancing about with brushed out blonde manes and tails, like My Little Pony with slightly less sparkles. (The rhythmic gymnasts took all the sequins for their little outfits LOL!) However, the silliness does not make it any less beautiful, impressive, or awe-inspiring. Take a lesson from Joss, a man who can love a genre and create it with care but go 100% all-out making fun of it at the same time. Buffy, Angle, The Cabin in the Woods... Recognize the silly, but dive into the love.

Watch your horses and be happy. I'll watch my ribbon twirlers and be happy. (It really is gorgeous.) I'll understand that my nay-sayers just have different experiences and interests, you do the same. Where's the problem?

Although, I might on occasion step aside to privately make fun of the trampoline event...

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 6:37 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Agreed on every point. I love a good debate, and you went after a sacred "cow" as it were. Also amusingly, gymnastics is the ONLY other event at Summer Olympics that I watch (there's a trampoline event? Ooo, ooo, where??). Ergo, given you seem to have little respect for the only two things I like about the Summer Olympics, I will now go out and call up rhythmic gymnastics on my OnDemand and give it a look (which I haven't done in decades) and make a sincere attempt to see the beauty in it--since I already appreciate the gymnastics of it.

It was the "to call horses "competitors" or "athletes", since they do not have the awareness of competition that humans do" which got me going, other than that, I think we can both agree that ANY Olympic sport is very difficult, requires tons of training and physical abilities. You want me to respect rhythmic gymnastics and go on saying dressage is a "bunch of ponies prancing around" etc., which I find interesting. I'd agree that Dressage "LOOKS silly", as does rhythmic gymnastics from what I remember of it, but I wouldn't do your appreciation of it--or the sport itself--the disrespect of saying it IS silly anymore, only that it LOOKS silly to me. So I guess we disagree on that point.

ETA: They never have "blonde" manes and tails, palominos don't do dressage (tho' I suppose any horse CAN if trained). If you're referring to the haute ecole of the Spanish School Lippizaners, they're born black and lighten up to grey-white (with only ONE black Lippizaner at the school, per tradition). Other than the Lippizanners, dressage horses are normally bays, blacks, etc.

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 6:52 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay: It's beautiful (starts at :20 in); I love color, I love gymnastics, and it combines them beautifully.

That's this year's rhythmic gymnastics--not sure what you mean about them taking the sequins off, since everything I see is COVERED with sequins?

Now I wanna go watch it properly, and I will tomorrow, as this was just a clip. The ball thing always eluded me, but watching it now, it has changed DRAMATICALLY!

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Sunday, August 12, 2012 4:13 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Still trying to figure out why it is that John Kerry was an "elitist" for windsurfing...

Me too. No mention of elitism here, just flip-flopping.

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Sunday, August 12, 2012 5:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Niki,

You do realize that the reason folks are ripping on dressage is that Ann Romney is involved, and one of her horses is competing in the Olympics. She apparently took it up as therapy for her multiple sclerosis.

In all my interest in and attention to the Olympics, from my youth to when the Games were here in Atlanta, I don't think I ever recall even hearing the term ' dressage'. I knew the Equestrian events took place out in Conyers, GA, at what most referred to as The horsey park , but that's about it.

I'm friends w/ a person who has MS, who used ( when she was able ) horse riding for therapy.

I wonder if there'd be this much attention if Teresa Heinz- Kerry were so involved w/ horses as is Ann Romney.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 12, 2012 6:23 PM

Niki, there's a communication break down happening here. There is much less disagreement between us then you're seeing. I don't think you really grokked my post.

We do disagree on this:

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
It was the "to call horses "competitors" or "athletes", since they do not have the awareness of competition that humans do" which got me going, other than that, I think we can both agree that ANY Olympic sport is very difficult, requires tons of training and physical abilities.

When was the last time a horse said: "You all go home, I'm just going to jump the course a few more times to make sure I've got that oxer down..."

Horses do NOT have a choice. They never get to decide to put off that other stuff horses do with their lives so they can train for the Olympics. Now, I believe 100% that some horses, in their horsey way, *like* doing what they do and are better at it than others. But to compare animals to human athletes is to ignore the mental aspect of an athlete. I've seen first hand that talented people are all over the place, but the fraction who are capable of committing to the work load needed for something like the Olympics... very very VERY small. Animals, on the other hand, are bred and trained for it. It's a completely different thing with animals.

Now please don't pull a Rappy and assume this means I do not enjoy and appreciate horses, which seems to be what you're doing. It's not black or white here, Niki. I like horses. I used to ride and jump in shows. Got that? I don't think you caught that from my earlier post. I LIKE HORSES. OK? But I still do not think they are the same as human athletes. See - gray.

Quote:
You want me to respect rhythmic gymnastics and go on saying dressage is a "bunch of ponies prancing around" etc., which I find interesting. I'd agree that Dressage "LOOKS silly", as does rhythmic gymnastics from what I remember of it, but I wouldn't do your appreciation of it--or the sport itself--the disrespect of saying it IS silly anymore, only that it LOOKS silly to me. So I guess we disagree on that point.

Really, did you read my post? My whole point is that all sports are silly, depending on how you look at them. Someone somewhere is going to find a sport to be silly, and if you can back off a few steps and look at it from a distance, all sports are completely and absolutely silly. All sports. Even those I've committed countless hours of my own life to. This is why I said:

Dressage horse are really, really, damned silly, no matter how pretty and skilled they are -- to people who aren't into horses, that is. Rhythmic gymnastics is completely whacked out fluffy -- to people who don't recognize and enjoy balletic lines and feats of flexibility, balance, timing, artistry, and strength.

Got it? I'm not hating on horses and loving my own thing, expecting you to love it too. Completely NOT what I said. I understand there are multiple ways to see a thing. It is possible to understand the silliness but still love the sport. At least, it is for me.

The "blonde" comment was meant to be a tongue in check metaphor. Look at the manes and tails of those dressage beasts. They've had more hours and dollars put into their grooming than the average Jersey shore girl. ($77k tax break! That money went somewhere!) (They was another joke.)

As for the sequins - I never said anything about "taking sequins off." I was joking on the outfits the gymnasts wear, which I happen to enjoy but I can see that many would find them to be too much. It's just like I joke on the groomed manes of the horses. See? I can love something and mock its silliness too.

As far as the 2012 rhythmic gymnastics - I don't know if it'll ever be available online, but if you get a chance look for the medal winners in the individual events. The Russian gold medal winner was brilliant. She was so smooth, absolutely way above everyone else. The silver medal winner did have her moment though: she completely broke down in tears after her ribbon performance. I wish I had a recording of it. It was beautiful.

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Sunday, August 12, 2012 6:43 PM

Oh, I forgot about the trampoline. Yes, there's an event, which I discovered for the first time this Olympics. So, they have this big ole trampoline with padding all around it, and one minute to get going with bounces that are like 3 stories in height. Then they have 10 bounces to do their actual gymnastics. Crazy stuff.

What I'm about to say is really going to challenge the imperfect internet communications, Niki, but I hope this comes through: I find this event absolutely absurd, yet I watched every person in the event and was captivated. I loved it. I'll be watching for it next Olympics.

Now, if I was there live I'd have a hard time not focusing on the audience once in a while. How funny must that look, everyone looking down/up/down/up/down/up chins bobbing in time... That must be even better than the left/right/left/right of tennis. Too funny.

Yep. This is one event I can make fun of yet admire. Maybe I'm just weird that I can do this? Too many years of loving Mark Morris and Joss Whedon. I like my art/sport mixed with humor.

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Sunday, August 12, 2012 7:13 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I used to be a gymnastics freak. I love what they can do. But I do have a problem with sports that are judged. It always seems a bit arbitary to me - even though I know they have guidelines. Just think that this kind of thing leaves itself open to corruption.

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Monday, August 13, 2012 12:01 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Mal, why do you hate horses ? Do you hate all animals too ?

I think there could easily be a thread on the most ridiculous Olympic events. From trampolining to BMX cycling....

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, August 13, 2012 3:10 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay, we can agree to disagree about the "silliness" of sports. I admire the talent, and see it as one of the few cases of nationalism that doesn't involve war. Sorry about the sequins--I misread it as they took all their sequins OFF. For me, the detail that the horses don't have the "option" is a minor point compared to the difficulty of what they have to do, so we can agree to disagree on that point, too. For me, the concept that a horse can decide what to do with its life is taking the comparison way too far, for obvious reasons--like what horses anywhere decide what to do with their life?? I find sports one of the less negative than a LOT of the things humans do, and far healthier for the athletes in numerous ways, so I appreciate it for what it is.

I did get it that you appreciate horses, etc., I guess I didn't make that clear. And given you think ALL "sport" (a la Romney) is silly, I'll accept your attitude. I feel differently. I even saw what I consider the beauty in football when I was younger (and it was less deadly). The Snake was particularly amazing to watch, not to mention Montana and a number of others. They could get downright "balletish".

I have to back up my impression of the $77,000 thing. Given they own the horse as a partnership with two other people, that makes it a business, so okay, I accept that, especially given its purpose for Ann Romney.

Doesn't matter if it's available on line (what I found on YouTube were just snippets, naturally); I got it on OnDemand, and it's beautiful. Have to go back and watch more carefully.

That said, I'm off to enjoy my own silly sport...being hauled around by a couple of huskies in what is ridiculously called a "sulky" (by the way, while I'm not into horse racing, I do love to watch harness racers, which I guess you'd call silly too).

I get that we're more in agreement than otherwise, you just have a different view of sports than I do, that's all. And as I said, you gutted a sacred cow, that's all.

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Monday, August 13, 2012 6:20 AM

CAVETROLL

Dressage is one of the sillier sports in the Olympics, in my opinion. Whose fitness are we judging? The human or the horse? But then again, men's gymnastics had rope climbing as an event. I can understand the competitive nature of that. Who can climb the fastest? But as an Olympic event?

There's at least 14 events that have been tried and dropped from the Summer Olympics. The schedule is huge and equestrian arts have a long history. They may not have a broad appeal, but from a historical standpoint, I can understand their inclusion.

Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons

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Monday, August 13, 2012 7:22 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Actually, if you read any of the stuff I posted, you'll see that it takes enormous physical strength on the part of the rider to do Olympic-level dressage, as well as physical strength AND aptitude for horses of that calibre. So in essence they're judging both, as well as how well the rider communicates with the horse and how well the horse does the moves. I admit it pisses me off that they give all the credit to the rider and there's little talk about the horse when they're giving "color commentary", etc., because it IS the horse doing most of the work. Nonetheless, as some of the things I put up show, it's a physically difficult sport for the rider, as well.

As to historically, I agree...dressage began with the ancient Greeks, around 360 B.C. Its beginnings were in military combat, but moved from there to become an "art" practiced by royalty and nobility. So yeah, it's got a long history; whether that gives it more or less right to respect, I dunno.

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Monday, August 13, 2012 8:33 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Actually, if you read any of the stuff I posted, you'll see that it takes enormous physical strength on the part of the rider to do Olympic-level dressage, as well as physical strength AND aptitude for horses of that calibre....dressage began with the ancient Greeks, around 360 B.C. Its beginnings were in military combat, but moved from there to become an "art" practiced by royalty and nobility. So yeah, it's got a long history; whether that gives it more or less right to respect, I dunno.

I made a point to watch it...NBC had a couple great Olympic apps so you could see whatever you wanted. I also watched the cross country horse jumping, which looks so dangerous on TV (don't know why).

Some Olympic events make no sense, but the only thing I about the horses is the lack of more horse events. I watched Hidalgo over the weekend and I'd love to see a multi-day horse marathon race.

Also...why Olympic Trampoline but not Olympic Golf? Why beach volleyball but not (Pro) Wrestling? And they should combine weight lifting with track and field...I mean lifting the big weights is great...but I want to see those fellas chuck those things downrange.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Monday, August 13, 2012 9:17 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Why beach volleyball but not (Pro) Wrestling?

Why beach volleyball at all? Every time I'd turn on the Olympics it seemed they were either playing volleyball or talking to volleyball players. And as Madame Geezer noted, if they make the women play in bikinis, why not make the men play in Speedos?

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:39 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Why beach volleyball at all?...they make the women play in bikinis

Answered your own question. Would ANYONE watch beach vollyball if not for the bikinis? This is a lesson...most women's sports should adopt the bikini uniform.

Gymnastics, basketball, definately soccer, the horse events, diving, swimming, running, archery...not weight lifting.

And winter sports too: figure skating, downhill racing, ice hockey, luge, the ski-shoot-ski thing...not bobsled.

Of course that would mean the end of men's sports...I mean you give me the choice of a woman doing some bikini 100m hurdles or men doing anything...I'm watching the bikini...er...the women's event.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:53 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, gawd, I LOVE Hidalgo!! Partly I admit because of the Arabians and the customs, landscape, etc., but also the story--considering it's based on a real story, and how Hidalgo himself ended up and how many he sired, etc...and just the fact that one of our wild mustangs could DO what he did! Hollywoodized or not, he won the damned race.

Yeah, that would be cool, a multi-day overland horse race...would be more fun than watching them jump over those carefully-placed fancy "fences" and stuff!

It's all a matter of personal taste, when it comes down to it, and we can knock any of the sports, or the Olympics itself, if we want to. Millions of people get a lot of enjoyment from it, thousands of people strive to be part of it, and (supposedly) hundreds of people give it their all in hopes of a medal. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:50 AM

EBFIDDLER

Okay, I don't usually participate in the RWED, but here goes...
For every Olympic sport that someone considers silly, there's someone else who takes it quite seriously, and there's others who don't take it seriously at all but still like to watch. Beach volleyball? It's really hard to do, and just as difficult, if not moreso, than volleyball played on a court with a larger team. (I do love playing volleyball.) Why is women's beach volleyball played in bikinis? Duh, so that guys will watch it, of course! Rhythmic gymnastics? Lovely, and difficult. (I played in marching band in high school and was glad that I didn't have to twirl my instrument the way the flag squad did. And I love to dance.) Why is rhythmic gymnastics done in sequins? Duh, so that young girls will watch it. Dressage? Niki's right, the riders have to be in very good physical shape and practice with dedication. (I've never done it, but I have a friend who is devoted to dressage and have heard all about it for years. Even I could tell that her dressage horse was something special.) And people who love horses will watch it.
So...my point. The Olympics shown on TV are shown because people find those events entertaining. The people who like *doing* the sports in question, will watch the competition in their favored event, *if it is broadcast* (many are not); but they're more likely to be spending their time *doing* the sport, not sitting on their couch watching Olympics on TV. M4P's point that the sports are ALL silly if viewed through a certain lens is a good one. The Olympic TV broadcast is for people who like *watching* events. "Olympic sports" is just the excuse for showing all these wacky athletic skills on prime television time. Beats "Choreographed Relationship Angst" and "People Doing Gross Stuff for Money" -- oh wait, those weren't the real titles of those reality shows, were they?

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:57 AM