GO Cuomo! by Niki2

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

And yes, of course I know this will set off a firestorm amongst our gun bunnies, but I'm afraid I don't give a damn.

You have angered the Gun bunny!

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:39 AM

America loves a winner!

Cheering for constitutional rights to be stripped... nothing short of horrific.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Cheering for constitutional rights to be stripped... nothing short of horrific.

THAT'S entertainment!

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:59 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Cheering for constitutional rights to be stripped... nothing short of horrific.
THAT'S entertainment!

How do you figure that ?

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:04 PM

BYTEMITE

You have to imagine them them as girls and stripping your rights as a euphemism.

I am not sure why they are leaving your left side alone however.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:37 PM

America loves a winner!

This is nothing short of 1930's era hysterics, orchestrated on a mass scale.

A baseball bat is an " assault weapon ".

Will America ever wake the fuck up?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 2:46 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
This is nothing short of 1930's era hysterics, orchestrated on a mass scale.

These days, what isn't.

Quote:
A baseball bat is an " assault weapon ".

Joe Pesci's character in Casino would definitely agree with that.

Quote:
Will America ever wake the fuck up?

Wake up? Surely you jest. That America is long gone. This America re-elects Obama and buys Justin Bieber music.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 3:09 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I don't mind assault weapons bans. What I'm pondering is the stricter committment rules (including those for civil committment when no crime has actually occurred). On one hand I don't like bossing people around more than necessary, one year for committment-like rules seems like it might be unfair. But on the other hand I can't tell you how many calls I get at work that go something like this:
"My son has been civilly committed 3 times, each time he takes medicine and feels better, then the committment runs out after six months and he thinks he doesn't need the medicine because he feels better, so he stops taking it and low and behold here we go again. He comes over and scares us and breaks things and we have to start all over again".

As it stands now (in OR) a civil committment lasts up to six months, this can be at the hospital the whole time or it can involve the person going home after a couple of months and being required to engage in treatment for the rest of the allotted period. After six months the case comes up for review and very very rarely the committment will be renewed. But most of the time the person is mannaging well enough that they don't meet the strict criteria we have for committment, so they're all done.

I'm pretty conflicted because I see both sides of this issue. And when I'm conflicted I generally support the status quo, which means sticking with six months. Note that my opinion could theoretically be changed to support the one year plan, but it would take a lot to do so since I'm bombarded with the flaws of only-six-months every day at work and it still hasn't fully convinced me that a year should be the measure.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 3:42 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
So much for "common sense" gun laws.

This law is a de facto ban on pretty much any semi-automatic handgun, and many rifles, even those that don't fall into whatever an "assault weapon" is this week. Folks who used to shoot 60 year old M1 rifles (the ones used in WWII) in competition will no longer be able to. Lots of other firearms used in competition also just be came illegal.

The criminals and sociopaths will pay as much attention to this law as they do the others.

Sometimes it appalls me whom I have to side with, in the cause of human freedom....
You do however, nail the salient points here, as does Byte.

Watching folks cheer the shredding of the Constitution always offends me, but it's especially ironic when the very folks howling about Bush disrespecting it, are suddenly demanding it be disrespected.

FYI: Cuomo just blew himself out of the Governors office, you just watch.
And I will, absolutely, help that along in any way I can.

-Frem

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 5:58 PM

Tens of millions of Americans are arming themselves. I strongly urge the liberals to reconsider the direction they have chosen.

Regardless of your good intentions you are driving a wedge between us that cannot be easily crossed. As a class you are dividing yourselves from the most prosperous and productive including majorities of the armed forces, national guard, reserves, police, and firefighters. They are also better armed then you.. You'll have who? They FBI, ATF, black militants, some Hispanics, but they'll splinter too.

Entire states will side against you. The states with oil, gas, coal, electrical surplus, food, tech, industry, and resources. Your states are mostly cold and poor or hopelessly in debt.

This direction leads to a fight you can't win but that everyone can lose and our side is willing to fight that fight and your side might be willing, but lets face it...your best weapon is sitting on your ass complaining about Wall Street.

People are going to push back against you. I guess my question is 'what is your endgame'?

I note for the record this is the Firefly fan website. Not one person on Serenity would pass a background check. All had criminal histories, mental issues, some were former enemy combatants. They hated taxes and the govt interfering with their lives. I've always said the show was full of conservative characters.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 7:28 PM

America loves a winner!

I'm hearing over a quarter of a million ( that's 250,000 citizens ) have JOINED the NRA since Sandy Hook. I'm sure in the lib's mindset, that # should have certainly gone down the other way.

Only, it didn't. Instead of leaving the NRA in droves, their ranks are actually swelling.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I note for the record this is the Firefly fan website. Not one person on Serenity would pass a background check. All had criminal histories, mental issues, some were former enemy combatants. They hated taxes and the govt interfering with their lives. I've always said the show was full of conservative characters.

I wouldn't say that. Inara would probably pass a background check easily and she doesn't strike me as politically (or socially) conservative at all. She's also not afraid of guns or unable to use them, so there goes your happy "all liberals want gun restrictions" theory, as well.

Kaylee has no real criminal background to speak of and is conservative mainly by association. I don't think of her as a political person, at all, nor as someone with strong opinions beyond a very small and particular range of subjects. She also seems to view guns with trepidation, so I doubt she'd go marching in the streets to protest their disappearance out of personal conviction.

Simon, too, doesn't strike me as particularly conservative. He doesn't appear to have handled a gun before coming to the ship nor does he seem to show much inclination for its use. His situation, however, has pretty much turned him into a survival opportunist at this point, so I doubt political leanings for general society apply.

Wash also doesn't seem terribly conservative to me. He's never voiced anything political. He knows how to use a gun, though, much like Inara does.

Book is a grey area with murky motivations, none of whom seem particularly conservative.

River is... beyond politics. She dislikes meddling, but no more so than any true liberal would distrust government propaganda (which comes in all flavors) or interference with the issues prominently on their mind (e.g. sexual self-determination, certain drug laws, promoting religion, etc).

The only characters who truly match your description of conservative are Mal, Zoe and Jayne.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:40 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Tens of millions of Americans are arming themselves. I strongly urge the liberals to reconsider the direction they have chosen.

It's call democracy...look it up.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Regardless of your good intentions you are driving a wedge between us that cannot be easily crossed. As a class you are dividing yourselves from the most prosperous and productive including majorities of the armed forces, national guard, reserves, police, and firefighters. They are also better armed then you.. You'll have who? They FBI, ATF, black militants, some Hispanics, but they'll splinter too.

Entire states will side against you. The states with oil, gas, coal, electrical surplus, food, tech, industry, and resources. Your states are mostly cold and poor or hopelessly in debt.

Yes because the north east and the west coast have no resources? Did you hear about that Califorina surplus?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
This direction leads to a fight you can't win but that everyone can lose and our side is willing to fight that fight and your side might be willing, but lets face it...your best weapon is sitting on your ass complaining about Wall Street.

Worked to keep control of the Senate and the White House. You should be worried since we haven't even gotten of our ass and are still winning.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
People are going to push back against you. I guess my question is 'what is your endgame'?

Keep pushing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I note for the record this is the Firefly fan website. Not one person on Serenity would pass a background check. All had criminal histories, mental issues, some were former enemy combatants. They hated taxes and the govt interfering with their lives. I've always said the show was full of conservative characters.

They are also characters in a fictional series. Welcome to real life.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:45 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
This law is a de facto ban on pretty much any semi-automatic handgun, and many rifles, even those that don't fall into whatever an "assault weapon" is this week. Folks who used to shoot 60 year old M1 rifles (the ones used in WWII) in competition will no longer be able to. Lots of other firearms used in competition also just be came illegal.

The criminals and sociopaths will pay as much attention to this law as they do the others.

It is not a de facto ban. A quick search and you can find 7 round mags for many weapons right now. It will not be long and you will be able to find them for most guns.

That being said I do think the reduction to 7 rounds from the current 10 make little sense. As far as competitions, I guess they will just have to use a different gun.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:47 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Watching folks cheer the shredding of the Constitution always offends me

Restrictions are not shredding rights. The fact is no right is absolute, nor have they ever been.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by
The only characters who truly match your description of conservative are Mal, Zoe and Jayne.

Every person on that ship is guilty.

Theft, theft of govt property, receiving stolen property, felony murder (lots of that), smuggling, drug offenses, kidnapping, etc.

They are also on watch lists.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Every person on that ship is guilty.

Theft, theft of govt property, receiving stolen property, felony murder (lots of that), smuggling, drug offenses, kidnapping, etc.

They are also on watch lists.

So are you, being on this site & a self-confessed fan. You have created your own glass ceiling by being here. Your superiours no doubt rank you in with a potential offender group.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Chris, I love the gun bunny! And agree with everything you've written, as well.

Thank you Nick, for so excellently answering the various issues, you did it FAR better than I could have.

And yes, Firefly is fantasy, for those who don't remember that. Tho' that was a good dissection of the Firefly crew, Agent.

Quote:
You have to imagine them them as girls and stripping your rights as a euphemism.

I am not sure why they are leaving your left side alone however.

Most excellent, Byte!

Riona, I agree. While I would be kind of on the fence, too, I've seen FAR too often exactly the scenario you described among those with a mental disorder. It's almost MORE common for all of us go to off our meds the first time we feel better--the majority of us learn from that first lesson, but many more do not. There is also the fact of how some (especially heavy) psychotropics' side effects are so hard on people that they go med non-compliant, too. They have my deepest sympathy, as some very creative and artistic people get turned into almost zombies...unfortunately, those are sometimes the ones who most need some kind of control...

"Shredding", "stripping" the Constitution is pure fear mongering; your rights to free speech have restrictions on them, as do many other "rights". I continue to maintain that the Second Amendment is not blanket permission for anyone to own weapons of war, only a "well-regulated militia". It reads that way for a reason.

Quote:
Your states are mostly cold and poor or hopelessly in debt.

Prize for the first guffaw of the morning.

As of 2012, America's poorest states:

10. Oklahoma
9. South Carolina
8. New Mexico
7. Louisiana
6. Tennessee
5. Alabama
4. Kentucky
3. Arkansas
2. West Virginia
1. Mississippi

Note where those stand on gun rights.

America's richest states:

10. California
9. Delaware
8. Hawaii
6. New Hampshire
5. Massachusetts
4. Connecticut
3. New Jersey
2. Alaska
1. Maryland

Note where most of THOSE stand on gun rights. I might also go into which states TAKE the most from the federal government (i.e., your taxes) as opposed to which GIVE the most...list wouldn't be much different.

Any ban on assault weapons will surprise me enormously if it gets through. But omygawd, did we ever suffer LAST time it went through--the whole country turned against...who, exactly?

As to people buying guns, of COURSE they are. Nobody expected otherwise. The NRA and right wing are superb at fear mongering; some people are stupid; and the same thing happened after Obama was elected, both times, while in his first term he did nothing but EXPAND gun rights. Like I said, some people are stupid. Quite a few of them, actually. He wouldn't even be dealing with guns now anyway, had we not had numerous shocking mass murders, culminated by Sandy Hook, which shocked the nation and caused THE PEOPLE to push for more gun restrictions (including, please note once again, the MAJORITY of NRA members!). He's doing his job. As of this week:

Quote:
Nearly six in 10 Americans want stricter gun laws in the aftermath of last month's deadly school shooting in Connecticut, with majorities favoring a nationwide ban on military-style, rapid-fire weapons and limits on gun violence depicted in video games, movies and TV shows, according to a new Associated Press-GfK poll.

A lopsided 84 percent of adults would like to see the establishment of a federal standard for background checks for people buying guns at gun shows, the poll showed.

Three-quarters of Americans said they reacted to the Connecticut massacre with deep anger, while 54 percent said they felt deeply ashamed it could happen in the United States.More at http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/AP-Poll-Majority-want-gun-controls-
187121771.html] More than 90 percent of Americans want background checks for buyers at gun shows, and 62 percent want to forbid the sale of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. More at http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/articles/2013/01/14/as-
gun-control-debate-rages-the-nations-gun-industry-thrives

Quote:
A new survey from the Pew Research Center, for example, shows that 85 percent of Americans support background checks for private and guns show sales, 80 percent support preventing people with mental illnesses from buying guns, and 67 percent support a federal database to track guns.More at http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/337666/those-new-gun-control-poll
s-charles-c-w-cooke#

Like I said, he's doing his job and responding to the will of the people.

Really sad to see generally intelligent people freak out at basic, common-sense things like background checks and databases because of an irrational prejudice on one issue.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by
The only characters who truly match your description of conservative are Mal, Zoe and Jayne.

Every person on that ship is guilty.

Theft, theft of govt property, receiving stolen property, felony murder (lots of that), smuggling, drug offenses, kidnapping, etc.

They are also on watch lists.

We know they are. The Alliance doesn't. Doesn't mean that they all are a) conservative or b) inherently pro-gun or anti-gun.

Up until the Operative is able to manipulate River into a public violent episode, the Alliance doesn't know more about the crew than Zoe and Mal's past in the war and whatever record they have. Obviously this doesn't affect Mal's legal ability to own a gun or it would have come up during their various run-ins with the law.

Inara, Kaylee and Book officially appear to be squeaky clean. We don't know about Wash, but apart from his association with Zoe he doesn't appear to be a person of particular concern, either.

In the duration of the series, the only ones actively wanted for anything are Simon and River, and the only ones on any kind of "watch list" are Zoe and Mal, possibly Jayne. The one time general culpability is brought up is when a brutally injured man is found in plain sight in the infirmary.

And as Wash once said "We're crooks. If all were right we'd be in jail." In all honesty, Mal IS a murderer. I love the character, but by rights he should be in jail instead of running around armed.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
In all honesty, Mal IS a murderer.

Last I checked, killing in wartime does not automatically equate to murder.
If you want to call Mal's killing of the surrendering crewman of the ship that murdered Haven murder, then that opens up all manner of interpretation. How many times have real life police opened up on a killer when the killer was probably out of bullets? How many drone attacks killed civies & kids instead of terrorists? How many people die of aneurysms caused by partially hydrogenated oils INTENTIONALLY added to food without health warnings on the label?
By that interpretation, millions of people deserve to have life sentences, eh?

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
In all honesty, Mal IS a murderer.
Last I checked, killing in wartime does not automatically equate to murder.
If you want to call Mal's killing of the surrendering crewman of the ship that murdered Haven murder, then that opens up all manner of interpretation. How many times have real life police opened up on a killer when the killer was probably out of bullets? How many drone attacks killed civies & kids instead of terrorists? How many people die of aneurysms caused by partially hydrogenated oils INTENTIONALLY added to food without health warnings on the label?
By that interpretation, millions of people deserve to have life sentences, eh?

I specifically think of him kicking an unarmed, handcuffed man into his ship's engine. I don't know but also don't necessarily doubt that there were similar instances we haven't seen. I understand why he did it, I don't hate the character because of it, but to me it is murder. I do not enjoy Mal's character because I think he is in any way ethically superior. I enjoy him because he is not or at least in spite of it.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I specifically think of him kicking an unarmed, handcuffed man into his ship's engine.

The man was admitting to multiple pre-meditated murder attempts (Until successful). No proper law anywhere near; possibly no proper law at all any way.
In the circumstances it was what reality DEMANDED he do (I'd have shot him my own self though). Any less invited DIRECT danger to him & his crew, and the writers & director went out of their way to make you see that.
If Crow had jumped off a cliff, would you say that the cliff murdered him? Sometimes we have to know the possible results of our decisions. Crow played the Goody-Two-Shoe assumption & lost.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:43 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

That guy was going to harm him and his, he did the most sensible thing in killing him, I agree that I would have shot instead of kicking him up the engine, ew, talk about nasty messes to clean up later. Kaylee comes to Mal and says "Capn', for some reason Serenity ain't running very smooth, I should take a look and figure out what's goin on". Mal says "Trust me lil' Kaylee it will all even out, you'd best not ask questions you're not ready to hear the answers to." Shooting would be much easier.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:47 AM

Thank You!

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Riona, thanx for the first honest giggle of the morning. Excellent! (I felt the same, by the way.)

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I specifically think of him kicking an unarmed, handcuffed man into his ship's engine.
The man was admitting to multiple pre-meditated murder attempts (Until successful). No proper law anywhere near; possibly no proper law at all any way.
In the circumstances it was what reality DEMANDED he do (I'd have shot him my own self though). Any less invited DIRECT danger to him & his crew, and the writers & director went out of their way to make you see that.
If Crow had jumped off a cliff, would you say that the cliff murdered him? Sometimes we have to know the possible results of our decisions. Crow played the Goody-Two-Shoe assumption & lost.

As I said, I understand why he did it. To me, it remains murder.

I guess it's best we agree to disagree at this point because I don't think I'll ever be convinced to blame an unarmed, restrained man for being brutally murdered (or tortured for that matter) no matter how vile a person he may be or what he may be threatening to do.

And, uh, back to the subject at hand. :)

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:29 AM

BYTEMITE

Mal was bound by law 5 times but never convicted.

Hmm. Murderer. I think most of his actions that resulted in a death stem from some interpretation of self-defense or armed intervention of a felony in progress.

The closest might be Crow through the engine. Crow had been subdued, and while Crow issued a threat, that's not quite the same thing as brandishing a deadly weapon or anything else that might bring a self-defense plea into play. On the other hand who's going to charge Mal for the crime and under what authority? Are extenuating circumstances a viable argument? It appears there is legal precedence for trying to use extenuating circumstances as an argument in a criminal trial for murder. Sufficient legal provocation can overturn first degree murder. It is up to each of us to decide whether bound or not Crow seemed dangerous enough that his threats qualified as a sufficient legal provocation, and whether his prior activities nearly killing the crew and known participation in serious torture also factored into the result.

There is also a question of malice aforethought, as it seems Mal had every intention of honoring the conditions of release he was offering, and the engine thing was a spur of the moment reaction to the threat. It probably is malice aforethought (why sit the guy in front of an engine intake in the first place?) but the offer Mal makes poses some difficulty and obfuscates the situation.

The other possible example I can think of is the guy surrendering on Haven, but, that same guy just participated in a genocide, and was protecting perpetrators of an even bigger genocide on Miranda. Just following orders isn't an excuse. In response, a former military officer of a former opposing army shot the guy. It starts to get into pretty grey territory re: the Geneva Convention, which allows for a limited sort of reprisal.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So are you, being on this site & a self-confessed fan. You have created your own glass ceiling by being here. Your superiours no doubt rank you in with a potential offender group.

I know police officers that have guarded the President that can't get on the White House tour in DC during police week because they own an AR15. And this was 2011.

We're all potential offenders to King Barrack and his merry Democrats.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm. Murderer. I think most of his actions that resulted in a death stem from some interpretation of self-defense or armed intervention of a felony in progress.

Felony murder is when someone dies (for any reason) as a result of the commission of another crime. I rob a bank and the guard shoots my partner who dies...I get charged with his murder. The charges also go to everyone involved. You rob a bank, guard shoots you, I'm in the car outside ready to 'get away' and guilty of murder that I may not even find out about till later.

Lets take Episode 1. Treason. Armed Insurrection. Murder. Destruction of Govt Property. Opening Credits. Unlicesned salvage. Theft. Smuggling. Obstruction of Justice. Human Trafficing and kidnapping (accessory after the fact for those). Assault on a Law Enforcement Officer. Murder of a Law Enforcement Officer. (Same guy, different scene) Sale of stolen goods. Felony Murder (several counts).

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:36 PM