Poll: Big Bang a big question for most Americans - along with evolution, the age of the earth, and global warming by 1kiki

Not surprised in the least; I've worked in jobs where I come into contact with the general public for years.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 6:57 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

OOC, where is the failure?

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Monday, April 21, 2014 7:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
OOC, where is the failure?

Noggin circuitry.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 7:24 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well, I was wondering - Is it the general disdain people in the US have for education? Poor schools? Too much religion? Something else? ...

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Monday, April 21, 2014 7:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Well, I was wondering - Is it the general disdain people in the US have for education? Poor schools? Too much religion? Something else? ...

What, you want my REAL answer, kiki?
Please refer to my Thirds Rule, and the resulting Fifty Percent theory.
One third of people are organically dirt stupid, and will believe the first thing they're told.
One third have some cognitive process at work, but are too tired or too emotionally distraught from real life nonsense to pursue a lengthy thought process.
One third are bright to even brilliant.
Our kids are in all three categories & taught by teachers from all three categories.
The middle category is the 'swing state'. Turn them off with teachers from the first or second, and they're gone. UNLESS the can be turned on sufficiently by important teachers from the third. But it's a battle.

That's why fifty percent of folks discharged from schooling turn out not to be able to think very clearly.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 8:17 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

You think it's the teachers (and by extension, the 'system'). Did I get that right?

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Monday, April 21, 2014 8:18 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I recently started reading Enders Game, didn't finish it, just wasn't my 'cup of tea'. But it did interestly predict how information can be manipulated using the internet. Pretty good prediction for the 80's or whenever it was published.

The internet enables emes to flourish and grow quickly, much quicker than in previous generations. Ideas and concepts, even fundamentally flawed ones, or perhaps especially flawed ones become imbedded into the populist concept.

We can see examples of this with the modern jihadist, who have been Joe Smith down the road, angry and disenfranchised, but finds meaning through the concept of the Jihad by listening to people who live completely different lives and face completely different problems on the other side of the world. Joe Smith converts to Islam, horrifies the local Muslims at the Mosque he attends by his words of death and hatred, but still finds support 1000's of miles away.... The rest is too common.

I see examples of this all the time. A clever few can manipulate populist thinking with few resources. People who spread ideas against climate change, that vaccinations cause autism, that evolution is false are just a few examples. They don't need scientific rigour, because firstly they just have to create the concept of doubt. They dont need peer reviewed scientific evidence because they can easily create their own journals and articles that pop up on google. They flood comments pages of newspapers and journals, blogs and internet sites such as this one. And their ideas can take hold, no matter how ludicrous, simply because people see the ideas propogated in many places and many forums until they eventually reach main stream and 'credible' sources, who feel compelled to give them air space because they are so noisy and prevalent.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 8:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
You think it's the teachers (and by extension, the 'system'). Did I get that right?

No, PEOPLE. Teachers are just people, and the system is created by people. People in groups are easily manipulated (see MD's comment above).

Even I can be manipulated although I believe myself to be a total sceptic.
It's all how you bounce in between the tennis racquets of bullshit to end up on the ground of truth.*

* sorry for the dubious metaphor

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Monday, April 21, 2014 9:31 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Ok. So you're putting this to human nature - the law of thirds.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 9:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Ok. So you're putting this to human nature - the law of thirds.

Basically.
And one does not necessarily need be intelligent to be wise. Just thought I'd throw that out there as well.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 9:48 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well Chris,IsAll attributes it to human nature. And Magon'sdaughter to the internet. And yet - the US is a deep anomaly among western countries. So, why are we different?

Evolution/ accept as natural process, not sure, reject

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/jul/29/climate-change
Thinks the govern't SHOULD place the highest priority on addressing climate change, %

China 94
Mexico 90
G Britain 89
Nigeria 89
France 89
Germany 83
Turkey 83
India 82
Egypt 82
Taiwan 82
Chile 79
Poland 77
Hong Kong 76
S Korea 75
Average 73
Ukraine 72
Russia 65
Kenya 63
Macau 60
Indonesia 59
US 44
Iraq 35
Palestine 34

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Monday, April 21, 2014 9:59 PM

KIKI, if that graph is accurate I can only surmise that other countries have standards when hiring teachers and administrators. My history teacher in High School used to tell us to read a chapter from our dopey outdated textbooks & fall asleep behind his newspaper. My Junior High History teacher would show us slide shows of his world travels & invite lively discussion & debate on current foreign policy & culture differences.
In MY world, my H.S. teacher would have been serving lunch in the cafeteria instead.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 10:00 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Well Chris,IsAll attributes it to human nature. And Magon'sdaughter to the internet. And yet - the US is a deep anomaly among western countries. So, why are we different?

Not just to the internet, although it has helped the ease with which false memes are perpetrated.

America is a deeply religious country compared to many western nations which tend to be very secular. I know we are much less influenced by religious ideas than the US, but still they filter across the ocean via modern means of communication and spread of ideas.

The fundies slso seem to have a fair amount of political power via the Republican Party

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Monday, April 21, 2014 10:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The fundies slso seem to have a fair amount of political power via the Republican Party

The squeaky wheel/oil thing.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 10:51 PM

OONJERAH

I saw that on the news & felt irresponsible about it.
I've been promising myself for a month or more that I'd find an
article about Big Bang for dummies and educate myself about it.
Certainly I have no business challenging the opinions of our best
physicists; common sense assumes they are right.

But how can I say I believe in something when I don't know what
it is? This is my Ignorance cop out.

... oooOO}{OOooo ...

I've given up looking for the meaning of life. Now all I want is a cookie.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 11:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
common sense assumes they are right.
This is my Ignorance cop out.

The fact that you question your own knowledge on the subject means you are on the right path to discovery.

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Monday, April 21, 2014 11:19 PM

America loves a winner!

My interest in the Cosmos and other fields prompted me to learn far more about those things outside of the classroom.

I don't recall Alfred Wegener getting any mention in my HS science classes.

Alfred Russel Wallace ?

And forget about Edward Drinker Cope and O.C. Marsh. Ha!

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Monday, April 21, 2014 11:28 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well, I've thought about it. And I have to say I don't see the 'human nature' argument. If it's human nature to exist by the law of thirds, then people can't exist otherwise. (Or all those people with better scientific education must not be human, since they don't exhibit the results of human nature ...)

And I don't think it's self-acknowledged lack of understanding. There's a place for 'not sure' in these polls. But what we see is a large number of people who actively REJECT these understandings. Based on what, or for what reason of background, is yet to be determined.

Evolution/ accept as natural process, not sure, reject

I have to ask you Chris,isall - if I could show you that this ignorance is something being intentionally done to us, would you revise your theory of human nature?

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Monday, April 21, 2014 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I have to ask you Chris,isall - if I could show you that this ignorance is something being intentionally done to us, would you revise your theory of human nature?

Yes, because my beliefs are subject to change based on new ideas & evidence.
I'd LIKE to believe that today's Human being is not simply a product of inbred bad genetics and simplistic loss of the fearless belief in non-violence as a way to conduct one's self through this life because of questionable evolutionary processes.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:05 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

OK. I was curious. Thank you for answering.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:09 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4630737

Teaching Evolution: A State-by-State Debate
December 20, 200511:52 PM ET

School boards and legislatures across the country are continuing to debate how to teach students about the origins of life on Earth. Policymakers in at least 16 states are currently examining the controversy.

In some states, advocates of "intelligent design" — the theory that an intelligent force had a role to play in the creation of the universe — are pushing for the concept to be taught side-by-side with evolution. In other states, schools are incorporating the idea that evolution is "theory, not fact." Below, a look at how the debate is playing out in several states:

Alabama: Biology textbooks in Alabama have included a disclaimer describing evolution as a "controversial theory" since 1996. The Board of Education adopted a softer disclaimer when they revised science guidelines in 2004, describing evolution as one of several scientific theories. But on Nov.10, 2005, the board voted to continue requiring the original disclaimer language.

Arkansas: After a long battle with the American Civil Liberties Union, the School Board In Beebe, Ark., voted in July 2005 to remove stickers placed in high school textbooks that question the theory of evolution. The sticker says that evolution alone is "not adequate to explain the origins of life." School officials had been awaiting an appeals court decision on a similar case in Georgia before taking action, but reportedly were concerned about lengthy and costly litigation.

Georgia: In 2002, biology textbooks in Cobb County, Ga., were labeled with a disclaimer stating that evolution is "a theory, not a fact." The label also said "this material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." A federal judge declared the sticker unconstitutional in January 2005, but the county school board appealed the decision. The 11th District Court of Appeals will hear the case in mid-December.

Kansas: The state Board of Education has been debating how to teach evolution for years. On Nov. 8, 2005, the board approved new science education standards that call for students to learn about scientific criticisms of evolution theory. While local schools are not required to teach specific theories in the classroom, the standards determine what students are expected to know for state exams.

Kentucky: According to a 1976 law that was revised in 1990, public schools in Kentucky are allowed to teach creationism in addition to evolution. The law states that any teacher who wishes to may teach "the theory of creation as presented in the Bible."

Maryland: In February 2005, school officials in Cecil County voted to use a high school textbook emphasizing the importance of the theory of evolution. The decision came despite the criticisms of several Board of Education members who said students should have access to alternative theories.

Michigan: A bill introduced in the state House of Representatives in September 2005 would require the Board of Education to revise science standards. The bill aims to ensure that students will be able to "use the scientific method to critically evaluate scientific theories including, but not limited to, the theories of global warming and evolution." Legislation attempting to include intelligent design in state science standards failed in 2004.

Minnesota: In December, the Minnetonka school district rejected a proposed change to teaching guidelines that would have emphasized evolution as theory.

Missouri: In the state House of Representatives, two lawmakers have introduced a bill that would require biology textbooks sold in Missouri to include one or more chapters taking a "critical" look at evolution. The bill is currently under review by a House committee on education.

New Mexico: In August, the board of education in Rio Rancho, N.M., adopted science standards encouraging the teaching of alternate theories to evolution in high school. The new policy encourages "discussions about issues that are of interest to both science and individual religious and philosophical beliefs."

Ohio: In 2002, the state's Board of Education voted in favor of a curriculum that emphasizes the "debate" over evolution. The policy requires students to learn that "scientists continue to investigate and critically analyze aspects of evolutionary theory."

Pennsylvania: In October 2004, the school board in Dover, Pa., voted to require that intelligent design be taught in high-school biology classes. A group of families sued in federal court, saying that the policy violated the constitutional separation between church and state. On Dec. 20, a federal judge agreed. In his ruling, District Judge John E. Jones III wrote that intelligent design is "a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory." The Dover school board had already seen a local backlash: The previous month, Dover voters ousted eight of the nine Republican school board members who had supported inclusion of intelligent design.

South Carolina: In December, the state's Education Oversight Committee struck from high school biology standards wording on how evolution should be taught. The move came at the urging of Republican state senator Mike Fair, who favors teaching intelligent design as an alternative to evolution. Students will continue to learn the current standards while a panel of experts studies whether those standards need to be revised.

Wisconsin: In October 2004, the Grantsburg, Wis., school board added language to its science standards that called for the teaching of " various theories/models of origins." State law mandates the teaching of evolution, but local school districts can create their own curricular standards.

I'm struck by how teaching evolution is described as a 'controversy'.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I'm struck by how teaching evolution is described as a 'controversy'.

HA HA, all those nuts falling for those fake clues to our beginnings left by God, the ultimate trickster. So gullible.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:17 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

heh heh heh heh heh ...

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:48 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/campaigns/global-warming-and-energy/p
olluterwatch/koch-industries/

THE KOCH BROTHERS: FUNDING $67,042,064 TO GROUPS DENYING CLIMATE CHANGE SCIENCE SINCE 1997.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 1:03 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, so far I've given examples of two groups ACTIVELY promoting DISinformaion.

And so, people don't just express ignorance - the 'not sure' option - they actively reject science in favor of some other agenda they've been propagandized with.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 1:21 AM

OONJERAH

You can get people, some of the people, to believe anything you
want if you entertain them with it. Convince them that their role
models believe it.

Chris, "One third are bright to even brilliant."

Only about 20%, by my reckoning.

According to my US History teacher: Some Yanks were POWs during the
Korean War. The NK made the effort to brainwash them. Some of our
men were not susceptible to brainwashing & were capable of leadership.
Those men were removed from the group. What portion of these soldiers
were kept away from the others?

... oooOO}{OOooo ...
10%

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 5:53 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, so far I've given examples of two groups ACTIVELY promoting DISinformaion.

And so, people don't just express ignorance - the 'not sure' option - they actively reject science in favor of some other agenda they've been propagandized with.

You truly believe that video on the Koch brothers was a fair, honest portrayal of their position, and the issue as a whole ?

If so, it's a clear indication of just how far around the bend you've gone.

AlGore has been shown to have LIED, in a court of law, with his propaganda movie. It was forced viewing for so many school children, with no counter view given. Deception and distortion of true science ? Look not at the direction of the Koch brothers.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:59 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Inconvenient_Truth

Do you mean this?

The judge concluded "I have no doubt that Dr Stott, the Defendant's expert, is right when he says that: 'Al Gore's presentation of the causes and likely effects of climate change in the film was broadly accurate.'"

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:25 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:

3] The judge ruled that An Inconvenient Truth contained nine scientific errors and thus must be accompanied by an explanation of those errors before being shown to school children. The judge said that showing the film without the explanations of error would be a violation of education laws.[124]

And...

Quote:

On the basis of testimony from Robert M. Carter and the arguments put forth by the claimant's lawyers, the judge also pointed to nine "errors", i.e. statements the truth of which he did not rule on, but that he found to depart from the mainstream scientific positions on global warming.[125][126][127] He also found that some of these departures from the mainstream arose in the context of alarmism and exaggeration in support of political
theses.[128][129]

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:40 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

The fundies slso seem to have a fair amount of political power via the Republican Party

The biology teacher at our local High School was recently informed that a group of "concerned citizens" had hired a Private Investigator to find dirt on him, because they find the notion of an atheist teaching biology to be a danger to their small town faith.

Im not even remotely joking.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:42 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:

3] The judge ruled that An Inconvenient Truth contained nine scientific errors and thus must be accompanied by an explanation of those errors before being shown to school children. The judge said that showing the film without the explanations of error would be a violation of education laws.[124]

And...

Quote:

On the basis of testimony from Robert M. Carter and the arguments put forth by the claimant's lawyers, the judge also pointed to nine "errors", i.e. statements the truth of which he did not rule on, but that he found to depart from the mainstream scientific positions on global warming.[125][126][127] He also found that some of these departures from the mainstream arose in the context of alarmism and exaggeration in support of political
theses.[128][129]

And yet, even with specific inaccuracies - well, you read the quote - even if you're not honest enough to admit it.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 1:54 PM

America loves a winner!

Credibility is lost when you use false science to promote political propaganda.

Thems the rules. I don't need some gorram judge to tell me science.

AGW?

Get over it . Adapt already & shut the hell up.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 2:24 PM

STORYMARK

Credibility is also lost when you deny unrelated research because of some faulty data. But then, you ONLY operate as a political mouthpiece - so you had no credibility to lose.

Its cute though how you latch onto this judge calling out some false data - but refuse to acknowledge that he said the underlying point was true. You only ever see that which you agree with. Like a child.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
But then, you ONLY operate as a political mouthpiece - so you had no credibility to lose.

Nicely put.

When I was a kid I remember being asked, "If Hitler told you the sky was blue, would you believe him?"

Of course, being the smart ass that I was, I answered "Not at night."

But the point is, that if an idea is a valid one it shouldn't matter who puts it forth, and it's silly to dwell on incorrect minutia that does not affect the idea itself.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 5:08 PM

America loves a winner!

Poorly put, actually. Unlike w/ AlGore and his propaganda piece, I'm not trying to indoctrinate millions of school age kids while fleecing a gullible public into buying into my hair brained idea of carbon credits, like some 21st century snake oil salesman.

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 5:47 PM

If Hitler told you the sky was blue (during a nice clear day), would you believe him?

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 5:58 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
If Hitler told you the sky was blue (during a nice clear day), would you believe him?

How long can a potato from the grocery store sit in a cupboard before it starts to sprout ? 1 week ? 2 weeks ? A month ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 6:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

How long can a potato from the grocery store sit in a cupboard before it starts to sprout ? 1 week ? 2 weeks ? A month ?

Thank you (I won the bet).

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Tuesday, April 22, 2014 6:11 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

How long can a potato from the grocery store sit in a cupboard before it starts to sprout ? 1 week ? 2 weeks ? A month ?

Thank you (I won the bet).

Make good use of your winnings.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, April 26, 2014 2:58 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, Chris,isall

I think when last I was here I pointed out how it is that groups spend good money to foist nonsense off onto the American public, so that they become the propagandized dumb clucks one sees today.

Did I provide enough information for you to conclude it's not a result of 'human nature', but of active efforts to mislead people? Or should I provide more systematic information?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I think when last I was here I pointed out how it is that groups spend good money to foist nonsense off onto the American public, so that they become the propagandized dumb clucks one sees today.

Did I provide enough information for you to conclude it's not a result of 'human nature', but of active efforts to mislead people? Or should I provide more systematic information?

I think you've presented a great case. I'm willing to say that you are correct, but also that they play off Human nature in that people could not be so easily manipulated unless most didn't usually seek the easiest thing to understand.
In seventh grade I was putting forth my reasons why one should be a 'moral' person (something about how chance of birth made you YOU and not ME, and this means we are all related through our lives on this planet, therefore we should treat each other as a human family and not tribes of us vs. them), and when I was done, the first comment from a girl sitting next to me was "Wow, you think a lot." It got a laugh. And helped me to understand the general mentality of those around me.

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Saturday, April 26, 2014 4:06 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Thank you for your reply. And the anecdote.

FWIW I'm not a particularly energetic thinker compared to some of the people I know. Unless I'm on a topic I have a driving interest in, in which case I'll go as far as I can. So I have some understanding of your classmates.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:11 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, as I think about it some more, I can think of all sorts of groups who are propagandizing us. And in some cases the reasons are pretty obvious why - the Koch brothers want to keep the business that makes them rich, for example. But why do you think the 'righteous' religious are doing what they're doing?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:25 PM