Kiev Neo-Nazis shoot and club people escaping from burning building...and INSIDE ... raped, shot, doused with flammables and set on fire. Pictures (WARNING) and proof. by SIGNYM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Kiev Neo-Nazis shoot and club people escaping from burning building...and INSIDE ... raped, shot, doused with flammables and set on fire. Pictures (WARNING) and proof.

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 09:00
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VIEWED: 7144
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Friday, May 9, 2014 12:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You don't recall the similarity between these and PN's Boston Marathon photos? Isn't that what Signym is also saying?

I never look at PN's posts, so I have no idea what the pictures are. AFA the original videos of the Boston bombing, I recall thinking... and posted here... that it looked like a very slow explosion with a lot of smoke... possibly black powder or crude gunpowder. So a lot can be deduced from on-the-spot photos and videos, even by amateurs, provided they haven't been manipulated.

I DO wonder who took the photos. We need to know that in order to understand their provenance. There is a lot written in Ukrainian or Russian on the original website which might explain the background; unfortunately I can't read it. So far, nobody is claiming that the photos are false. Also, the part about people being strangled is now being corroborated by survivor testimony. If, on further examination of these photos another story emerges, I will be prepared to look into that too.

However, the timeline- based on stringing together independent youtube videos so far indicates that this was the neo-Nazis' doing.

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Friday, May 9, 2014 4:36 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Signym first I have to love the claims that you have more, but don't have time after typing a half a page of text. The claim of learning from a DOD chemical weapons unit is also nice. Have you been reading from the conspiracy theorist's had book?

Let's start with the claims of Neo-Nazi's in the Ukranian Parlament. You are talking about the Svoboda party, which at one time did have ties to Neo-Nazis. However before the party gains seats and continuing as it has grown it has pushed the radicals out of the party and distanced itself from thos groups. That includes the Neo-Nazi groups. So stating now they are Neo-Nazis is completely disingenuous.

As far as Syria, Hirsch has been critizied for getting facts wrong in his reporting. Hirsch has been critized many time for the use of announomous sources, and even wrote a book on John F. Kennedy based largley on false documents to which Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. responded that Hersh "the most gullible investigative reporter I've ever encountered."

The Gulf of Tonken incident was a massive fuck up, but not some grand lie.

Noreiga admitted to drug running, but calimed it was while he was working with the CIA. His removal from power is still celibrated in Panama.

The Invasion of Grenada was not just about American students (the fear was that they could be taken captive). The invasion is now Grenada's Thanksgiving.

Al-Qaeda had training facilities in Afganistan and were given protection by the Taliban.

Yes, regarding Iraq we were lied to.

I will giver you this one (Syria) because the US did make claims that could not be backed up, however I don't remember anyone trying to hide the results from the UN findings.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, May 9, 2014 6:26 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
So now you're putting words in my mouth, again? Is THAT what you do when you can't come up with a better argument? I never said that it was "Kiev's security forces" in or at the Trade Unions building in Odessa. Please learn to read.

Please learn to read who I'm responding to

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, May 9, 2014 10:26 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Well Kiev sent 'security' forces into this - admittedly and officially. I think it's a proven fact at this point. Did Russia send forces into this?

From what I've seen: yes they have. Russia has sent soldiers into Ukraine to act as agitators. I've seen photos of Ukrainian "demonstrators" next to photos of Russian military personnel from a few years back and it looks like the same damned person.

So do I really trust this photo more than I trust sig's? Hell no. I'm not there and I know how people can be biased when they've involved in a generations-old dispute. I think the whole situation is like the Middle East where both sides have done enough bad shit that each can point the finger at the other and claim to be the victim. Truth is: neither is blameless.

Which is why Sig's posts jumping on one side of things without any solid, logical proof makes my BS-dar go off. She's got some other horse in this race that is making her blind.

Quote:
If you can show me reasonable information - besides government claims or media reports of rumors - I'll be happy to track it down.

I have none such. I have not seen any posted in RWED either. Which is why I believe neither side, nor do I believe someone posting articles and photographs from a source that is so completely biased as RT.

Quote:
"The photos are absolutely NOT meaningless, but they do nothing to identify the evil fuckers who did the crime."

Quote:
Please note I made no strong claims about who did what to whom - though I would think that if the winning side did lose their members in the building they would be more attentive to the bodies rather than celebrating at the windows. My issue is that the people here are more concerned about the source, about the 'fringe' element they think it is, about the inscrutability of said photos - and seem to have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BAD TO SAY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

This all confuses me.

"Winning" side? There is none here.

Either side could have done this. I do not put it past either side in this battle to murder a few of their own to get the press of themselves as victims. But more likely, I think some random icky fuckers did the bad deeds (because there are random icky fuckers everywhere who jump at the chance to take advantage of a chaotic situation) and one side or the other jumped on the chance to get the PR they needed.

I think it really is that chaotic over there. Which is why I think it's a HUGE mistake for otherwise reasonable seeming posters like sig to go all in believing reports on a Russian news site.

Again: all I've seen from this thread is this logic: "These photos are horrible OMG KIEV DID IT!" with nothing at all to support this, other than articles from a site that of course will blame Ukrainians.

Sig: your posts are too long for me to deal with tonight (long day, longer week) and, honestly, the short glance I gave them left me with the impression that they are lots of words with little actual directly related substance. Sorry, but that is what I've seen of all your input into this topic - lots of emotion, very little factual information.

Kind of like Six talking about Obama: "I don't like him because he's bad and because he... well... he's... I HATE HIM I HATE HIM I HATE HIM!"

No substance there. All emotion.

I will look at your posts again tomorrow if my attention span allows. Maybe I missed something. Then again, you admit that you don't even know who took the pictures, and you don't talk about this event in detail but go into all your other gripes about other stuff (which is why my eyes glazed over.) You'd have a much stronger argument if you stuck to factual, unbiased information directly related to the event which is the topic of the thread.

Frankly, I doubt very much that you've got any kind of unbiased judgement here. What happened to your brain? What about Ukraine made your personality turn inside out? It's very intriguing, actually.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

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Saturday, May 10, 2014 2:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
From what I've seen: yes they have. Russia has sent soldiers into Ukraine to act as agitators. I've seen photos of Ukrainian "demonstrators" next to photos of Russian military personnel from a few years back and it looks like the same damned person.

Well MAL4, you've just been thoroughly and ridiculously pwned by the propaganda-spewing shit-hole which is our media! Something I've been trying to show you all for quite a few threads now!

The problem with the photos YOU'RE referring to is that they're mis-attributed. The photo which the NYT ran as being from Russia actually was from... yep, you guessed it... Ukraine! The photographer who took the photos recognized them in the NYT and cried FOUL! The NYT had to retract the story within a couple of days.

Quote:
So do I really trust this photo more than I trust sig's? Hell no. I'm not there and I know how people can be biased when they've involved in a generations-old dispute. I think the whole situation is like the Middle East where both sides have done enough bad shit that each can point the finger at the other and claim to be the victim. Truth is: neither is blameless.

But which side starting shooting first? It wasn't the separatists.

Quote:
Which is why Sig's posts jumping on one side of things without any solid, logical proof makes my BS-dar go off. She's got some other horse in this race that is making her blind.

MAL4, I watched videos of a man with a blue/yellow armband shooting at people in the building. I watched videos of people clubbing jumpers to death. I watched videos of molotov cocktails being thrown AT the building, not FROM the building.

Right sector storming the street, setting fire to the separatist tents, and throwing Molotovs at the building

More of the same

Extended surreptitious video of neo-Nazis with staves and Molotovs surrounding the Odessa Trades Union building (from which the clip of the pistol-shooting man was taken)

Man shooting at jumpers (armband clearly visible)

There is a video which I can no longer find of a man clubbing a surviving jumper to death.

All available testimony and all available videos say the same story about who started the fire and who died. The timeline and the actors are clear. Nobody has claimed the pictures are false. Testimony from the survivors says the same thing.

All evidence points a very heavy finger towards pro-Kiev neo-Nazis doing killing in the building. (ETA- So, what is your supposition? That separatists, having been kettled and driven into the Trades Union building for safety, starting shooting, strangling and burning each other? That devilishly clever Russian provocateurs with guns and gasoline, having predicted the entire course of events, inserted themselves into the panicked group of people heading into the building?) It would take a monumental act of denial to construct an alternate narrative that fits the evidence.

But if you don't believe me, go look into it yourself, instead of whinging about lack of evidence.

Quote:
Sig: your posts are too long for me to deal with tonight (long day, longer week) and, honestly, the short glance I gave them left me with the impression that they are lots of words with little actual directly related substance. Sorry, but that is what I've seen of all your input into this topic - lots of emotion, very little factual information.

Then like I said- stop whinging about the supposed lack of evidence. You whinge about the fact that SOME of the evidence was posted by RT. So read what I wrote, and look it up for yourself. Don't trust me, don't trust RT. Go to Youtube directly, which is what I did. Please, feel free. In fact, I insist.

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Saturday, May 10, 2014 2:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Where do you rate "honesty?" If you can rationalize that fib then you can rationalize others.

I used to look PN's posts up. Finally, I stopped. Both he and I have been at this website far longer than you. I suspect by the time you showed up, I was no longer looking at his posts, so any pictures that you refer to from, about... oh, four years ago and later ... I haven't seen. I just can't imagine that you would expect a voir dire over such a trivial matter, trying to "catch me" in a lie, when all I was doing was referring to PN's posts which YOU might be referring to, not the ones back from 2003.

So, you've really been unable to discredit anything I've posted about Ukraine and haven't been able to cogently respond to the content. Instead, you focus your attention on me? Well, yanno what they say: When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger.

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Saturday, May 10, 2014 12:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Meanwhile, Kiev security forces (this time, actual security forces with APCs) battled separatist police in Mariupol, surrounding and setting fire to the Interior Ministry Building where the police had taken shelter. (Sound familiar?) When civilians arrived to support the police, one APC gunner shot at them as well, and killed several.

Since you don't believe me, please look this up yourselves. (5-10-14)

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Saturday, May 10, 2014 2:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yanno how the parent says I'm not angry, I'm disappointed?

Well, that's not me. I'm both disappointed AND angry.

I don't expect to be believed. In fact, I would be rather disturbed if you all just took my word for events that I post about.

However, I would hope that you liberals would give me enough credit to at least look things up for yourselves. What I've discovered from your recent behavior, however, is that instead of looking at the evidence as it stands you seem to think that if you can argue with ME you'll somehow make the facts "go away". There is hardly a smidgen of objectivity or intellectual honesty to share amongst yourselves.

I'm not your intellectual errand-boy, to be finding facts and information that you're either too lazy or too propagandized to look up for yourselves. I'm not your political whipping-boy either. If you want to keep an eye on events, you have to put in SOME effort yourselves. Don't expect to stay undisturbed in your comfy-cozy cocoon and still be able to perceive truth, because yanno what? The truth is sometimes hard, and it often runs counter to the narrative that we like to tell ourselves. So bird-dog the truth yourselves, or stay uninformed; it's on you-

not me.

If you think this is a giant FU, you're right. If you think it's undeserved, you're wrong.

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Saturday, May 10, 2014 5:00 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Pictures don't have to 'shopped to lie. PN also posted pictures with red arrows and lines trying to prove ridiculous notions like the Boston Marathon bombing being a gov job. They look the same as these. You can't prove anything from them because you weren't there. Didn't you post about images being staged in Syria? You're drifting.

From the first page of this thread you said:

"When PirateNews posted about something I didn't know about, I looked it up. And he actually posted about quite a few real things, like MKUltra, and pointed to a few other things (like the story about gay prostitute Jeff Gannon/Talon News, who got to do an "overnighter" at the Bush White House.) which still smell fishy even today, but have no good explanation. "

Where do you rate "honesty?" If you can rationalize that fib then you can rationalize others. There seems to be something driving this Ukraine obsession you have - is it worth asking you what it is? Please don't say, "because we need to know the truth."

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:42 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

G
page one

apparently fully convinced both sides were equally to blame for the atrocities, as per the narrative told by Kiev and reported in western media, thinks differing facts can only be attributed to signy's mental aberrations, because it's inconceivable otherise

Do you really think either side is above any of this? If a conflict lasts long enough barbarity becomes the rule, base human instincts (and I mean base) take over. With your passion I'm afraid I can see you doing similar if GOD FORBID you found yourself in a similar situation. Our Animal is just below the surface, right where our strongest skills for rationalizing any behavior live.

Pictures don't have to 'shopped to lie. PN also posted pictures with red arrows and lines trying to prove ridiculous notions like the Boston Marathon bombing being a gov job. They look the same as these. You can't prove anything from them because you weren't there. Didn't you post about images being staged in Syria? You're drifting.

Sig is great. I would miss her posts immensely, the place might actually die if she didn't post. BUT, she has a habit lately of posting PN stuff and NOT answering direct questions. A lot like AU.
I ask a question, you answer - or you are not trustworthy = FACT. You do the same to AU all the time.

Never a reason to let a thread die.

"Irreverence" - making light of extreme situations - has been a cornerstone of much of American humor for many years. It's related to why many hate to listen to TPTB.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:42 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

M52 depends on sources and not on evidence, apparently believes whomever he trusts and not his own eyes, also attributes any discrepant facts to signym's mental state and not to any even potential existence is real life, quotes extremely tenuous sources that published serious errors - for example the 'human rights council' that claims Ganushkina is a member when she is a former member, also thinks people die of smoke inhalation bent backwards over a desk with no trace of soot in sight page one

SIGNYM is starting to go the way of Pirate News.
Funny that both sites you linked to ties to one side of this crisis. RT stands for Russia Today, which has Michel Chossudovsky on as commentator all the time. Chossudavsky runs Centre for Research on Globalisation.

I'm not going to claim the pictures were retouched. They however do not prove what you claim. We know people died in that fire, however how it started and how thos people dies is not proven by those pictures. If it was that clear no one would have have to add arrows and circles and captions to them.
As for good guys in this crisis...I don't see any. I do see a Russian leader looking to take back lad which is feels is rightfully Russia's. Putin at one time claimed there were no Russian troops Crimea, now he is saying there was. Also the real numbers from the vote have come out as well and it was not the landslide that was claimed.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-changes-course-admits-russia
n-troops-were-in-crimea-before-vote/2014/04/17/b3300a54-c617-11e3-bf7a-be01a9b69cf1_story.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-huma
n-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/
You also want to say that the West was blaming Yanukovich but forget that the Ukrainian parlement, still with a amjority of Yanukovich's own party, was the one blaming him.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/03/us-ukraine-crisis-killings-i
dUSBREA320QO20140403
Futhermore I will take a report from the Wall Street Journal over that of Russia Today anytime.

It is still here. You seem to have taken a side in this and are unable to move from it. Don't you get that you are posting a pro-Russian naritive from pro-Russian websites? Does that seem a litte off to you?

The pictures can tell different stories depending on who is telling them. There was no doubt a fire and those people died. Those pictures tell us that, but they don't tell us a great many of the other things RT and you are claiming they do.
You keep harping on the snipers when there were more deaths during those inital protest than just people who got hit by sniper fire. It is known that the special police force opened fire some with machine guns, that force was commanded by a person close to Yanukovych. They were basicly under his command. So it is not just about the snipers. You say Kiev is backing away from blaming Yanukovych but you post one snipet with no link. I have post article that says Kiev still does hold Yanukovych to blame.
You talk about the truth as if the things you post are without a doubt that. You trust RT which is a pro Russian outlet but will not believe other outlets that do not have such clear ties. Sorry, you are not looking for the truth you are looking for things that support what you want to be the truth.

Trust but verify!

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:42 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Miker thinks jonsie's post making fun of atrocities is funny but finds actual news and discussion revolting page one

I love the humor and wit behind your use of the Julie Andrews song, but I keep seeing this ugly thread revived by those who find It Ludacris. Imagine then a protest no one showed up to watch. It would be over in a minute and would be the better way to go don't ya think?

I do not understand anyones attraction to this thread. let it die. It is sick and revolting.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:42 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

KPO also holds to 'the narrative' page one

This fire was a very sad and tragic incident, and I hope the full truth comes out, and the people to blame on both sides are punished for their actions on this day. But at the end of the day this was two violent mobs facing off, leading to a situation escalating in an unforeseen, unplanned way. It's not equivalent to a government ordering its security services to shoot protesters using SNIPERS, which is almost certainly what happened in Kiev.

Her full quote was:
"Ooh ooh that smell
Can't you smell that smell
The smell that's around you?
It's a smell they've proven throughout their history to be able to get used to pretty quickly."
It's pretty dark, but I read it as a criticism of the Ukrainian nation/people, referencing the pro-Nazi atrocities committed there. She's said other anti-Ukrainian remarks previously. I was going to ask her about it.

The narrative I've heard is that a pro-Russian mob attacked a pro-Ukrainian protest (as we've seen happen elsewhere in the country), and that a number of pro-Ukrainians were shot and killed by the pro-Russian side. The Ukrainians fought back, burnt the pro-Russian camp, and pushed them back into the building that was the pro-Russian HQ. Then both sides threw Molotov cocktails and the building ended up on fire.
Common sense tells me that some of the pro-Ukrainians probably intended to set the building on fire, while the pro-Russians surely didn't. But common sense also tells me that people on the Ukrainian side probably didn't storm into the burning building and rape people.

Evidence?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, May 11, 2014 2:12 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

It's the liberals who are as firmly entrenched in their own propaganda as jongsy and rappy are in theirs. After having repeatedly brought to people's attention over the years that the stories they like to believe aren't true, the Ukraine topic was just the last straw.

When shown actual photos that did prove that the narrative they were so heavily invested in was flat out wrong (ie ANYthing anti-Russian) did they investigate? Check out various sources? Sift out facts? No. They said the photos were too obscure to interpret. Shrugged them off. Said she was mentally unbalanced. Called her PN.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, May 11, 2014 3:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

From the NEW YORK TIMES

Quote:
The violence on Friday and the freeing of prisoners on Sunday highlighted a distinction between Odessa and the east: In both places, the police have sided with rebels. But here, [Odessa] local pro-Kiev activists routinely field street fighters ready to confront the Novorossiya group, with lethal consequences on Friday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/05/world/europe/kievs-reins-weaken-as-c
haos-spreads.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=1

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Sunday, May 11, 2014 12:48 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Wait, now you support the NYTimes/Western Media? Didn't you cite them for having to pull a photo they posted because it was inaccurately attributed?

It should be clear what I'm doing here, so thanks for misrepresenting me. But, to make it explicit- Since so many people here seem to be wildly invested in the western media, here is a western source.

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Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

G
You sound lke a person who's careful with their words.

When you posted "do you think both sides are not capable ..." were you referring specifically to this thread http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57980&mid=9
71626#971626 and its photos? Because since you didn't specify anything else, in this context with those photos, I assume you are referring to Signy's claims. Do you find any evidence BOTH sides participated in this atrocity? If not, on what do you base your claim? And, having looked at the videos, do you still claim BOTH sides participated?

(For the record, if you look at WIKI here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovi
na you'll see that the Serbs were responsible for over 20,000 bodies found in mass graves, while others sides were responsible for dozens, perhaps up to a couple hundred. You'll also see that the Serbs started the conflict off with a bang, massacring thousands and hundreds at one time. So to try to presume that 'both are capable' to maintain a pretense that you can't apportion blame is a severe misrepresentation of the truth. As you did here: "Serbs and Croats - people who were once friendly neighbors, were killing and burning and raping each other to horrifying degrees. It happened on both sides." It's like saying both Jews and Nazi were capable of violence, so the Holocaust was nobody's fault.)

And well, let's see just how many times and in how many ways you slandered Signy ...

PN also posted pictures with red arrows and lines trying to prove ridiculous notions ... They look the same as these. You can't prove anything from them because you weren't there. Didn't you post about images being staged in Syria? You're drifting. ... BUT, she has a habit lately of posting PN stuff ... There seems to be something driving this Ukraine obsession you have ...

And you also disparage the search for the truth. Like it couldn't possibly be a motivating factor. Well, maybe not for you - but it doesn't keep other people from seeking it.

I've mentioned in other threads how I happened to stumble across 'news holes' - extremely important facts that I knew existed that I could NOT find in the media no matter how hard I looked. A massive and highly destructive power surge and blackout in the norheast that knocked radio stations off the air for hours, fried computers and sensitive medical equipment that I know of, that was never ever mentioned in the news. The US participation in the Angolan War, the existance of the war itself which I only knew about through Canadian radio. The vote count to let G Bush into the first US Gulf War ... I personally know by facts personally witnessed and without a doubt our media is manipulated by the government. And now, with cross-country cooperation, that manipulation is an international effort. When someone finds evidence of that manipulation, do you find it so inconceivable that they would want to inform others that it exists?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Monday, May 12, 2014 11:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
More about how humankind behaves in these situations, BADLY, and it's typically not just the one side.

Actually, in my view it IS typically on one side. The rapist. The wife-beater. The banker. The invader. To reduce humankind to a school playground, there is typically one bully or a small group of bullies who set the whole dynamic in montion, forcing everyone else to react. He started it is a valid defense. In any case, this thread isn't about "typically", the topic is about a very specific place, actors, and events. So judge them separately, not by what happens (or what you think happens) elsewhere.

AFA the use of pictures... I found the pictures interesting. The use of circles and boxes points out contradictory features... for example, heavily burned bodies, but no charring on small items like wooden railings nearby. Rather than having my eyes just glaze over, I actually looked very closely at them and tried to imagine alternate explanations than the ones presented, and I just couldn't. The only explanation was that these particular photographed victims were NOT burned by the building fire. The follow-on conclusion is that they were killed separately, and on purpose.

The hypothesis that I drew- which wasn't even in the set of photos- based specifically on the photo of the victim who had been shot (blood stain) and THEN burnt (char) was that somebody went through and shot or strangled the victims and then burned their heads and hands... either to delay fast identification or to cover up the cause of death. (Being burned after death means no soot in the trachea, but would require an autopsy to determine. You see? Reality TV is worth something! ) After the fact interviews of survivors confirms the hypothesis.

Like I said, I don't expect you or anyone to "believe" me, what I do expect out of intelligent, presumably fact-driven people is to be investigative. That clearly didn't happen. Most people responded by reacting to the source and/or to me, rather than to the information itself.

AFA "we can never know the truth" ... if that were the case, science wouldn't be successful. Yes, the universe is infinitely huge and infinitely complex and we will never know EVERYTHING. But among competing narratives, some are closer to the truth than others, and I think as a presumably intelligent species (although I'm beginning to wonder about that) we are beholden to approach the truth, rather than sidle away from it.

And FINALLY (whew!) I don't think I know "the truth", although I've done my best to separate out the wheat from the chaff. But that is why I bring my thoughts here ... to be (HOPEFULLY) picked over, re-directed, argued about, some points rejected, possibly other points made.

Yanno, a good, rigorous discussion. That rarely happens here.

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Monday, May 12, 2014 11:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Haven't commented for two reasons, first and foremost... health problems, the kind that normally get ya dead - but I happen to be damn hard to finish off, although the 15%+ cognitive impairment is pissin me off somethin awful....

The other being - the moment the Neocon slime started this, with American tax dollars, any thought of "objectivity" from me went right on out the window.

The financed motherfucking 2nd/3rd Gen OG Nazis, with our money, sans authorization - this is *TREASON*.

Quote:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

In respect to WWII, the Nazi Party is an ENEMY of the United States, and Nuland and Pyatt not only offered Aid and Comfort, but Material Support, and the phone conversation in which they plotted and eventually executed this plan is public knowledge so it's a LOT more than two witnesses, and by golly if that's not an "Overt Act", what is ?

Ergo, not only am I fully against the fucking Fascists, both in principle and because of this, I should like to see some State Dept employees swingin from a fuckin ROPE over this, cause anything less is an abdication of all that is decent and humane.

Fuck Objectivity, you side with the Nazis, you deserve to die.

-Frem

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Monday, May 12, 2014 12:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The killers were either in position in the building before the tent fires were started, or they moved in with the separatists. I personally think they were in the building already, because they needed to bring in gasoline and fire extinguishers and guns other supplies. That obviously involves pre-planning.

According to witnesses, the same tactics (kettling a group of separatists into a building and setting the building on fire) were just applied in Mariupol, where Kiev sent in an actual military to battle the Mariupol police. When some police took cover in the Interior Ministry building, the building was set on fire.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/05/10/disputed-accounts-of-mariupol-viole
nce-in-battle-for-southeast-ukraine/

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Monday, May 12, 2014 1:06 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

G

Since you didn't specifically mention OTHER incidents at OTHER times - for example here "Do you really think either side is above any of this? If a conflict lasts long enough barbarity becomes the rule, base human instincts (and I mean base) take over." - I presumed you were replying to THIS TOPIC. Silly me. Apparently when you post you're just riffing on some unrelated notion you have. In that case, after this I will no longer specifically reply to your posts b/c who the hell can tell WHAT you're referring to. Right?

But then, even your generalizations don't hold up. You mentioned that it could be like the Bosnian war, where (you claim) brutality was an equal opportunity action.

You alluded to brutality being equal opportunity here:

Do you really think either side is above any of this? If a conflict lasts long enough barbarity becomes the rule, base human instincts (and I mean base) take over.

and here:

My comment is about perspective. This is starting to feel a lot like the Yugoslov wars, when Serbs and Croats - people who were once friendly neighbors, were killing and burning and raping each other to horrifying degrees. It happened on both sides. I don't think in this war that it will be any different. People rationalize and are capable of the most unspeakable acts in these circumstances.

I pointed out that even BY YOUR EXAMPLE the Serbs were historically responsible for 99% of the brutality. They massacred TENS OF THOUSANDS. And THEY WERE THE AGGRESSORS.

I pointed out that BY YOUR LOGIC the Holocaust was NOBODY'S fault because, yanno, BOTH SIDES COULD BE EQUALLY CAPABLE.

YOU are the Gaellic shrug. Who knows who could do this? Him? Her? Them? You? ... Me? SHRUG. Who can tell? SHRUG.

Whatever.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Monday, May 12, 2014 1:34 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wow Sigs...

I'm totally shielded from whatever I want to be at this point...

Totally Evil...

Good luck with all of that Shite ;)

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, May 12, 2014 3:15 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Fuck Objectivity, you side with the Nazis, you deserve to die.

Clear, concise, and correct.

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Monday, May 12, 2014 8:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

" were killing and burning and raping each other to horrifying degrees"

Serbs doing that to Croats? Check
Croats doing that to Serbs? Nope.

Is the statement they were doing that TO EACH OTHER (that DOES imply BOTH mutually doing it, doesn't it?) TO HORRIFYING DEGREES correct? Not al all.

You were wrong. Get over it.

Bye.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Tuesday, May 13, 2014 9:00 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
" were killing and burning and raping each other to horrifying degrees"

Serbs doing that to Croats? Check
Croats doing that to Serbs? Nope.

Is the statement they were doing that TO EACH OTHER (that DOES imply BOTH mutually doing it, doesn't it?) TO HORRIFYING DEGREES correct? Not al all.

You were wrong. Get over it.

Bye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dario_Kordi%C4%87

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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