REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Mamma Grizzly mouths off again

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, August 4, 2011 19:54
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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 6:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Sarah Palin responded to unsubstantiated accusations that Joe Biden called the tea party "terrorists" over their role in the debt ceiling negotiation, saying President Obama should look into his own past with Bill Ayers if he wants to see "domestic terrorists."

"He didn't have a problem palling around with Bill Ayers back in the day when he kicked off his political career in Bill Ayers' apartment," the former Alaska governor said Tuesday night on Fox News. "You know, shaking hands with Chavez and saying he doesn't need any preconditions with dictators … wanting to read U.S. Miranda rights to alleged, suspected foreign terrorists."

If she and Fox host Sean Hannity were "real domestic terrorists," Palin said "heck, shoot, President Obama would be wanting to pal around with us, wouldn't he?"

Multiple Democratic sources said Democratic members of Congress vented to the vice president about tea party lawmakers who "negotiate like terrorists." As they spoke, Biden said "well now we've taken away their weapons of mass destruction," meaning the Republicans could not use the debt ceiling as leverage with Democrats in the future.

Biden's press secretary, Kendra Barkoff said the word "terrorists," "was used by several members of Congress. The Vice President does not believe it's an appropriate term in political discourse." More at http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/03/palins-domestic-terror
ist-punch-to-obama/#more-169945


Oh, my, the woman is the gift that just KEEPS on giving!




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 6:58 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


The word "terrorist" and the expression "like a terrorist" should be banned from ALL POLITICAL discussion, and reserved for people who actually use guns, bombs, airplanes, and knives against others.

The guy in Norway is a terrorist. Osama and his buddies were terrorists. The IRA used to be terrorist Menachem Begin used to be a pro-Israel terrorist; Bernadette Dorhn might have been a terrorist: she did plant a bomb to blow up cops (Did it actually go off, actually wound any? I don't remember.) DB Cooper might qualify as a terrorist. Those Second Amendment "open carry" guys come pretty close.

But William Ayres is not

( Edited: I looked him up because I didn't remember the details. I am wrong He did plant a bomb at a police memorial statue, intended to kill police officers. So he , at least , used to be. I got him confused with Jeremiah Wright, who is not, by my definition)

: Obama is not; the Tea Partyers are not.

TO call them that is pointless villification and fear-mongering.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 7:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup. I agree wholeheartedly. But you know how politics works: Buzz words, visceral triggers; because they WORK!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 9:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


So Democratic legislators call some of their Republican counterparts terrorists, the Vice President jokes about it rather than calling them down, and this is Sara Palin's problem?

Kind'a reaching there, Niki.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 11:18 AM

DREAMTROVE




It's hard to get a bad picture of Sarah Palin.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 11:34 AM

FIVVER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Yup. I agree wholeheartedly. But you know how politics works: Buzz words, visceral triggers; because they WORK!



Yeah, but now since 'racist' has been totally worn out by the barking moonbats on the left, they're trying out 'terrorist'.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 12:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by fivver:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Yup. I agree wholeheartedly. But you know how politics works: Buzz words, visceral triggers; because they WORK!



Yeah, but now since 'racist' has been totally worn out by the barking moonbats on the left, they're trying out 'terrorist'.



Nah, that one's been worn out by the barking moonbats on the right. Hell, they even refuse to call REAL terrorists terrorists now, like the guy in Norway.


But for the record, the tea-baggers DO fit the definition of "terrorists", using terror and coercion for political gains.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 12:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

It's hard to get a bad picture of Sarah Palin.





It's really not.









"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 1:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



On this, at least, she's 100% right.

For those leaders of the Democratic party, Reid, Biden, etc..., to refer to us REAL Americans in such terms, is nothing less than despicable.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 1:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

But William Ayres is not

( Edited: I looked him up because I didn't remember the details. I am wrong He did plant a bomb at a police memorial statue, intended to kill police officers. So he , at least , used to be. I got him confused with Jeremiah Wright, who is not, by my definition)

: Obama is not; the Tea Partyers are not.

TO call them that is pointless villification and fear-mongering.



The fact that you got a thin, while guy ( Ayers ) confused with a portly, angry black preacher ( Wright ) should be enough to disqualify you from even discussing this topic any further.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 1:49 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

But William Ayres is not

( Edited: I looked him up because I didn't remember the details. I am wrong He did plant a bomb at a police memorial statue, intended to kill police officers. So he , at least , used to be. I got him confused with Jeremiah Wright, who is not, by my definition)

: Obama is not; the Tea Partyers are not.

TO call them that is pointless villification and fear-mongering.



The fact that you got a thin, while guy ( Ayers ) confused with a portly, angry black preacher ( Wright ) should be enough to disqualify you from even discussing this topic any further.







Hey, 'Rap: Go suck a 44 Magnum.

I checked the data myself, because I wasn't sure. I Edited the post myself, to correct the error, immediately.

Next time you post something REALLY STUPID, why don't you correct YOURSELF immediately, rather than insulting the folks who prove you WRONG, you loud mouthed DUMBASS.

And it's easy enough to get them confused ,since you Right Wing ASSHOLES have been going on for years now about how they both, and Obama , are all the same.

At least I'm honest enough to check, and correct, myself.
ANd you might notice that I stuck up for the TPers, even though I disagree with them.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 2:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:



Hey, 'Rap: Go suck a 44 Magnum.

I checked the data myself, because I wasn't sure. I Edited the post myself, to correct the error, immediately.

Next time you post something REALLY STUPID, why don't you correct YOURSELF immediately, rather than insulting the folks who prove you WRONG, you loud mouthed DUMBASS.

And it's easy enough to get them confused ,since you Right Wing ASSHOLES have been going on for years now about how they both, and Obama , are all the same.

At least I'm honest enough to check, and correct, myself.
ANd you might notice that I stuck up for the TPers, even though I disagree with them.






William Ayers




Rev. Jeremiah Wright

Gee, you seem to have a point here. Both guys look nearly identical.

One, a white radical, communist bomber from the 60's, and the other, a black radical socialist preacher, who thew racial bombs from the pulpit. And both real good friends with Obama.

I see how you could get them ALL confused.


( and that's kinda the point, ain't it ? )






Why so serious ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Of course, there's no solid evidence that Biden ever said anything of the sort, but don't let the facts stand in the way of your tirade...

And I have tape of one of you tea-baggers actually proclaiming himself a "proud right-wing terrorist", so even IF Biden had said something of the sort, he'd be confirming what the tea-baggers themselves have already claimed in public, in talks with their own representatives.



Of course, when you guys call YOURSELVES that, your tea-bagging congresscritters refer to you as "great Americans" AFTER you claim to be terrorists.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Or, as Rappy put it:

Quote:


Kinda curious to see the noise over this harmless poor choice of words...




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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Biden said it. Others said it, and it was confirmed.


To try to deny it is show the height of both hypocrisy and cowardice.

Which is what we'd expect from the Left.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 4:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Prove it.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 8:59 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Yeah, it is silly to bandy the word terrorist about in political negotiations in congress etc., sort of childish really.
But I can't help but relate to what Sarah said here.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 11:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Who is this person again ?
*yawn*

-F

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 1:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Prove it.



There's nothing anyone could post which you'd admit to reaching your arbitrary standard for 'proof'.

But for others, there's all manner of evidence of the Left's hypocrisy and mindless vitriol.



Remember when, in the wake of the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, the Left’s commentariat blamed Tea Party “extremist rhetoric” for the violent attack that left several dead and many more wounded in Tucson? When the national media wasn’t clucking its collective tongue over a crosshair graphic on Sarah Palin’s website (a graphic routinely used by both parties) or her “don’t retreat, reload” line, they scolded activists for using phrases like “taking back our country” as dog-whistles for massive violence — even after the shooting proved to be the work of a deranged individual whose politics had nothing to do with the Tea Party. The media elite insisted that conservatives tone down their rhetoric in order to promote “civility” in politics.

( http://hotair.com/archives/2011/08/03/this-new-civility-sure-is-impres
sive-no
/ )

Here are some choice examples, coming from the Left, over the " new tone of civility".

“We have negotiated with terrorists,” an angry Doyle said, according to sources in the room. “This small group of terrorists have made it impossible to spend any money.”

“Let me finish tonight with this bad experience we’ve all just been through. What we saw — what I saw, at least, was one guy with a knife and the other trying to avoid being cut. It was a thug attacking a victim. It was a mugging.” - Chris Matthews


No fewer than four “esteemed” Times columnists have drawn the conservatives/terrorism connection within the last two weeks: Nicholas Kristof, Thomas Friedman,Maureen Dowd, and today’s addition from Joe Nocera (who?), whose piece is subtly entitled, “The Tea Party’s War On America:”

“You know what they say: Never negotiate with terrorists. It only encourages them. These last few months, much of the country has watched in horror as the Tea Party Republicans have waged jihad on the American people. Their intransigent demands for deep spending cuts, coupled with their almost gleeful willingness to destroy one of America’s most invaluable assets, its full faith and credit, were incredibly irresponsible. But they didn’t care. Their goal, they believed, was worth blowing up the country for, if that’s what it took.

“For now, the Tea Party Republicans can put aside their suicide vests. But rest assured: They’ll have them on again soon enough. After all, they’ve gotten so much encouragement.”




Just a small sample, but you get the idea. I could go on an on, but what's the point ? Either you see the facts for what they are, or you ignore them, because you don't WANT to face reality. I can't help those who fall into the latter category.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:02 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Huh. Not a single one of those "quotes" is attributed to Joe Biden.

You can go ahead and admit you've got nothing now.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:12 AM

DREAMTROVE


Why defend a position that can be shot down in a fifteen second google?

Quote:


Originally posted by Politico:

Biden was agreeing with a line of argument made by Rep. Mike Doyle (D-Pa.) at a two-hour, closed-door Democratic Caucus meeting.

“We have negotiated with terrorists,” an angry Doyle said, according to sources in the room. “This small group of terrorists have made it impossible to spend any money.”

Biden, driven by his Democratic allies’ misgivings about the debt-limit deal, responded: “They have acted like terrorists.”



Mike,

The close up with the glasses is unflattering, but there's no question that she looks good for her age. Or probably for a human in general.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Huh. Not a single one of those "quotes" is attributed to Joe Biden.

You can go ahead and admit you've got nothing now.




Failed reading comprehension 101 again, huh?

No quotes were CLAIMED to be attributed to VP Biden.

And as for the rest of those 'quotes', the case has clearly been made.

I've brought more to the table than you can possibly imagine.

( obi won Raptor )


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 7:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What I have heard and read from various sources was that the Vice President heard Rep. Mike Doyle, D-Penn., say “the Tea Party acted like terrorists in threatening to blow up the economy.”

Doyle used the term several times. What happened next is in dispute. Several sources told Politico that the Vice President responded by saying, “they have acted like terrorists.”

Other sources told ABC News that the vice president said something along the lines of “if they have acted like terrorists, we’re taking the nuclear weapon away from them.” (note: IF they have acted like)

The Vice President told CBS News’ Scott Pelley, "I did not use the terrorism wor. What happened was there were some people who said they felt like they were being held hostage by terrorists. I never said that they were terrorists or weren't terrorists, I just let them vent. I said, ‘Even if that were the case, what's been happening when you now have taken and paid the debt and move that down so we can now discuss, the nuclear weapon's been taken out of anyone's hands.’"

It's a silly back and forth, really. Everyone calls everyone names, it's politics. What I found:
Quote:

Republicans describe Democrats as:

> anti-Semitic;
> hate white people;
> hate men and manhood;
> manipulate minorities;
> unpatriotic
> anti-American;
> hate liberty;
> hate the wealthy and successful;
> Communists;
> Godless atheists;
> want to institute a totalitarian-style command economy;
> want to make all our decisions for us;
> want to punish productivity and excellence;;
> baby-killers who support infanticide.


Democrats describe Republicans as:

> racist;
> xenophobic;
> hate minorities and brown people;
> misogynistic;
> greedy;
> don't care about the poor;
> think it's wrong to help the needy;
> war-mongering;
> Social Darwinists;
> religious fanatics;
> Taliban;
> Nazis;
> want to resegregate into a white supremacist theocracy;
> want to enslave women.

Both parties say of the other that they:

> want to destroy the economy;
> act in lock-step;
> don't care about facts, logic, reason, science;
> power-hungry;
> extremists;
> radicals;
> terrorists.

This is the survey you'd need to do in order to support the claim that "Republicans do more name-calling than Democrats" or "Democrats engage in more vitriol than Republicans." And yet there's no shortage of people who loudly insist that one party does it more.

And this is how the cause of civility gets twisted into just another exercise in partisan vitriol. People claim that one side is chiefly to blame for said vitriol, even though they have nothing approaching adequate evidence to support that claim. It becomes yet another unsubstantiated claim, a claim that is itself an instance of name-calling.

I don't say one party does it more than the other because I don't know if it's true. And neither do you. It just so happens that no such evidence exists.

So, to those of you who do want to make such a claim, prove it. Pony up some empirical proof. Don't give us anecdotes, or say "it seems like" or "it feels like" one side does it more. Give us a rigorous, comprehensive survey of all the statements from equally representative samples of Republicans and Democrats.

Without evidence along these lines, you're just adding to the list of name-calling. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6206184/who_is_worse_democrat
s_or_republicans_pg4.html?cat=9

That pretty much sums it up for me, and anything else is just "partisan jihad".
Quote:

Hoft warned: “Look Out – The Thugs Are Coming…[Gateway Pundit, 3/10/11]

In a March 9 post, Fox Nation described Wisconsin protesters as “Rabid Leftists.” [Media Matters, 3/9/11]

On its Twitter page, Fox Nation promoted its March 9 post stated, “Warning, Frothing Radicals Running Wild.” [Media Matters, 3/9/11]

A March 8 Fox Nation headline stated, “Howling Liberals Interrupt John Kasich Speech.” In the post, Fox Nation referred to the protesters as “leftist bullies.” [Fox Nation, 3/8/11]

A March 8 Fox Nation headline referring to pro-union protesters at a GOP-hosted town hall event stated, “Shrieking Leftist Mob Shuts Down Town Hall Meeting in Wisconsin.” [Media Matters, 3/8/11]

On March 3, Fox & Friends used a video of Wisconsin protesters confronting a GOP state senator to attempt to portray the protesters as a “violent” “mob.” In fact, the video showed no evidence that violence occurred during the incident, prompting the photographer who shot the video to slam Fox’s coverage as “a genuinely dangerous narrative that Fox News is helping to create.” [Media Matters, 3/3/11] http://whatdoesgopstandfor.com/why-did-fox-new-call-teacher-union-menb
ers-thugs
/

At one time or another, various Republicans have called Obama "Socialist, Marxist, Communist, Kenyan, Muslim, Fascist, Revolutionary" and more.

Those of us on the left who disagreed with the Iraq war from the start...anyone remember what we were called then? WE were called "terrorists", 'traitors", "anti-American", "terrorist sympathizers" and much more quite a bit during the Bush Administration.
Quote:

Stevens said the anti-war demonstrators around the country were un-American.... “I think they’re a bunch of communists and socialists,” he said. http://galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=982e6a19855ad2ce


It's despicable that people have to reach for ugly words to call others, but it's politics, it happens all the time and the media (and other side) usually make a big deal out of it. Visceral terms draw emotional responses, and when irresponsible people get pissed off, they use visceral tersm. If we compared name calling on either side, or any side, we'd most likely have trouble deciding which side smeared the other more (as mentioned in that article). To debate it or say one side or the other has used pejoratives more is just plain silly...Raptor being the perfect example.

Note how he claims to have "won". There it is again; his pathetically desperate need to believe he "won" an argument.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 4, 2011 8:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Huh. Not a single one of those "quotes" is attributed to Joe Biden.

You can go ahead and admit you've got nothing now.




Failed reading comprehension 101 again, huh?

No quotes were CLAIMED to be attributed to VP Biden.





Ah, so when you earlier pointed out that

Quote:

Biden said it.


and

Quote:

For those leaders of the Democratic party, Reid, Bidenp, etc..., to refer to us REAL Americans in such terms, is nothing less than despicable.


you didn't mean he actually SAID it, right?

I mean, you weren't quoting him when you claimed that that was the exact word he used. Is that what you're saying?


I think it's just precious that you like to refer to yourself in the third person, though, and liken yourself to a Star Wars character. That's really cute, Jar-Jar Rappy.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:23 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

I think it's just precious that you like to refer to yourself in the third person, though, and liken yourself to a Star Wars character. That's really cute, Jar-Jar Rappy.



Maybe he's got tired of referring to himself as a character in a Speilberg movie?

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:43 AM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

Both sides call each other Nazis, and social darwinists, which they think is a soft way of saying Nazi.

The right calls the left socialists too much. I've been accused of this, but I've always been careful to only call socialists, "socialists."

Note that the closest thing the US has ever had to a socialist was FDR, whom I call a "Keynesian" because that's what he called himself, which is accurate, more accurate than calling him a socialist. Nixon also called himself a Keynesian.

Obama calls himself a Reaganite, I'm not sure that is either flattering or accurate. I'm someone dubious of the concept, Reaganite, economically, I think of Reagan as being a somewhat corrupt Thatcherite. I will grant that Obama is not a Thatcherite. Actually, he reminds me more of Bush than of anyone else, including Clinton.




That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Both sides call each other Nazis, and social darwinists, which they think is a soft way of saying Nazi.
Respectfully, that was kind of my point, wasn't it?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 4, 2011 4:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
It's despicable that people have to reach for ugly words to call others, but it's politics, it happens all the time and the media (and other side) usually make a big deal out of it.


Interestingly, I find it MORE despicable that folks lack originality when heaving such vitriol at each other - I mean, if yer gonna do it, why halfass the job ?

Two cab drivers I used to work with, Mahmoud and Bob, who we called Bob cause no one could pronounce his given name, not even his brother - "We have no idea what mother was thinking..", got annoyed not cause of the insults thrown at them for being muslim-arabic, but cause those insults were BORING, I mean part of being a cabbie is exchanging lots of serious verbal abuse with the rest of the public on a regular basis, it's tradition, yanno ?

Only they wouldn't teach ME any good stuff in arabic, bleh - apparently they'd taken to offering extremely archaic-flowery renditions in arabic which by inflection you can make love poetry sound pretty nasty in, if you want to...
Stuff like "For thee can extort great verbal force upon my lower genetialic devices!"... in arabic, spoken as harshly as possible, is downright CRINGEworthy, seriously.

Anyhow, it's not that they're insulting, it's that they don't put any real effort into it, but really what does one expect, they've halfassed everything else, too.

To do evil, that's bad.
To do evil BADLY, that's unforgiveable.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 7:54 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Irish was/is a language of blessings and curses. The way to say thank you in Irish literally translates to "May good be upon you". So if ya don't like someone, instead of just calling them names, you can invent clever aliterative curses to sling at them and they can sling cleverer ones back at you and you can see who is the most original at cursing. That concept must be where the expression of "using curse words" comes from? Like back in the day when you were swearing at someone it was like tossing curses? Anyways that kind of goes along with what you were saying about Arabic Frem, sounds like the same concept, never a dull moment, those guys could dish it out.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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