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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
In the interest of fairness about climate change
Sunday, February 19, 2012 8:01 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:Smoke and Mirrors in the Climate Debate A new book by an executive at a major German power ultility claims we aren't facing a climate catastrophe and rejects current mainstream ideas on global warming. Both climate change skeptics and those who warn of global warming profit from such controversies -- so who should we believe? Science can be so easy -- at least when it is stripped of its nuances. Fritz Vahrenholt and his colleague, geologist Sebastian Lüning, say the world isn't facing a climate catastrophe. The two are peddling precisely the kind of theory that generates publicity and allows both sides of the debate to profit. But it also leaves people wondering who they should believe. The authors both work for German electric utility company RWE, where Vahrenholt is an executive. In their book "Die Kalte Sonne" ("The Cold Sun"), they claim that important research about climate change has been kept under wraps and that cries of an impending climate catastrophe are misleading. Their book arrived in book stores in Germany last week, with considerable media attention. Following their statements, newspapers like the conservative tabloid Bild are dismissing what they call the "CO2 lie." This camp says it's not greenhouse gases that are behind the problem. It's the sun that determines climate change, they argue. The book is the latest salvo in the ongoing debate over global climate change. It's a perpetual conflict that leaves people asking questions like: What's really going on with the climate? What kind of picture can you draw from current research? The most reliable source on the topic is the climate report produced by the United Nations. The Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change (IPCC) puts together a report every few years about the state of knowledge in the field. The report documents in detail where researchers are unsure or just don't know. Contrary to what many IPCC critics say, however, the report reads like a book filled with doubts. But there's also a "summary for political decision makers" section, which is put together by civil servants rather than researchers, and which can appear to be biased in places. Feeding the Conspiracy Theorists The ideas espoused in Vahrenholt and Lüning's book can also be found in the UN climate report. Yet the two still accuse the IPCC of concealing the true facts. By spreading that claim, they are further fueling conspiracy theorists. The fact that the IPCC has come to different conclusions than the two authors is simply because its report contains not only the theory being promoted by Vahrenholt-Lüning, but also myriad others. Indeed, judgments about climate change cannot be reached as easily as the two RWE authors would have one think. In an attempt to justify himself, Varenholt told SPIEGEL in an interview he wanted to "revitalize the deadlocked debate." Vahrenholt and his allies have jumped headfirst into an emotionally charged debate between those who warn of climate change and those who are skeptical of it. The problem is that both sides profit from the conflict -- at the expense of the general public and scientific credibility. On the one side are the scientists, lobby groups and commentators who are constantly talking about a "consensus" among climate researchers. But for many important questions, this supposed consensus never even existed. On the other side are critics like Vahrenholt and Lüning, with their extreme theories. An Old Theory with Little Evidence The case of Vahrenholt and Lüning is a clear-cut one: They've handpicked the theories that best back their thesis -- the primary one being that the sun has been getting weaker since 2005 and will continue to do so in the coming decades. Together with other natural influences, this cooling sun will supposedly lessen the warming effect created by man-made greenhouse gas emissions. Vahrenholt's thesis isn't exactly fresh out of the oven: Five years ago, Danish sun researcher Henrik Svensmark of the Danish National Space Institute wrote about the theory of the impending cooling in his book "The Chilling Stars." Svensmark, together with other sun researchers, back the theory that the impact of the sun on the climate has been underestimated. The experts' argument mainly involves the sun's indirect effects, primarily the claim that the sun's rays control cloud formation. These critics of the prevailing climate science may indeed be right, and their theories may be plausible, but practical evidence is lacking. The IPCC classifies knowledge about the extent of the sun's effect on the climate as "low" to "very low." But it's not as if the body is trying to avoid the topic. Are the Answers in the Pacific? Experts are divided over predictions that activity from the sun will diminish. Some are indeed expecting a weak sun phase beginning in 2020. Still, most studies indicate that even something like the Maunder Minimum -- which is believed to have caused the "Little Ice Age" in the Middle Ages -- would result in a cooling of the global average temperature at ground level by a maximum of half a degree. However, the output of greenhouse gases could significantly surpass the effect. The UN climate report is open about this, saying there's a "low" level of knowledge in this area. Vahrenholt and Lüning, on the other hand, are sticking to their bold thesis, saying several solar cycles will lead to a minimum. "Various American and British solar research groups believe that weak solar cycles are ahead," Vahrenholt told SPIEGEL. What he neglects to say is that the effects of the different cycles on the climate are not well known. What makes it even more difficult is that in the last century the Earth's temperature often did not correspond to the sun's strength. That's why the two authors maintain that the cyclical changes in ocean currents will also ensure lower temperatures. For example, they cite the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, which has the capacity to significantly change the global climate over a period of many years. However, the Pacific climate cycle has not run parallel with the global average temperature over much of the 20th century either. Why should it do so in the future? Ultimately, Vahrenholt and Lünging are doing little more than guessing what might happen with the climate. The Myth of Consensus On the other side of the debate are a number of prominent climate researchers who always repeat the same mantra, namely that the scientific community has long been united that Planet Earth is facing dangerous warming. For the most part, there is also consensus in the view that humans are heating up the climate through the emission of greenhouse gases. But the extent to which that is happening, as well as the expected consequences, are both disputed. When it comes to a number of other important questions, a consensus never existed. The IPCC report provides evidence of that fact, as do surveys from sociologists and climate researchers. Numerous researchers openly admit they harbor significant doubts. The following areas, for example, are considered to be insufficiently researched, despite the fact that they could be decisive factors in determining the future of the climate: * The development of climate change in the past and how it relates to the climate of tomorrow. * The water cycle. The quantity of water vapor -- a naturally occurring greenhouse gas -- that is present in the air is decisive in terms of the air temperature. * Knowledge of the effect of particles from industry, heating and auto emissions as well as from oceans, volcanoes and from the soil is also "low," according to the IPCC report. These particles serve as seeds for clouds, and some estimates suggest that an increase in the cloud cover by just 1 percent could offset a doubling of the CO2 in the air. * Many climate researchers question the quality of computer models used to forecast climate change. Despite this considerable uncertainty, however, there is enough data pointing toward drastic climate change that it could still make sense to prepare for it. Yet that hasn't stopped a number of leading scientists from promoting selective research as an attractive, though overly simple, answer to climate-change skeptics. But this behavior actually endangers efforts to protect the environment. At some point, opponents will discover the concealed knowledge -- bringing embarrassment to the researchers. The so-called Climategate scandal involving stolen emails from climate researchers only boiled over because scientists discussed gaps in the science among themselves that they had not shared with the public. A Perfect Symbiosis In Germany, prominent scientists travel around the country to espouse views that are popular with their target audiences. In its reporting, SPIEGEL ONLINE found that companies and associations pay leading climate researchers fees as high as €5,000 ($6,606) for their expertise. Scientists who convey unequivocal messages are also in high demand as consultants for lobby groups and political parties. Indeed, a close partnership has developed between environmental groups and climate researchers, one that benefits both sides. The lobby groups gain scientific credibility, while the researchers increase their influence. The more associations promote the line about a scientific consensus, the better climatologists' positions become established with each message. The European Climate Foundation was recently established in Berlin. The group says it spends €20 million ($26.4 million) annually on its climate protection programs. With help from scientists, the foundation publishes summaries of the current state of research. The one-sidedness of what is represented should provide plenty of ammunition for skeptics like Vahrenholt. On the other hand, Vahrenholt's own theories draw attention to the foundation. It's a perfect symbiosis. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/smoke-mirrors-climate-debate/story?id=15692923
Sunday, February 19, 2012 8:19 AM
CHRISISALL
Sunday, February 19, 2012 8:35 AM
ANTHONYT
Freedom is Important because People are Important
Quote:Is Venice deeper under water than before?
Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:31 AM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:Originally posted by chrisisall: Now if you want to haggle over the *CAUSE*, be my guest. I don't really care, since it isn't a thing that can be stopped, nature-caused, man-made, or some combination.
Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:44 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Quote:Originally posted by chrisisall: Again, both sides have their motivation.
Sunday, February 19, 2012 12:22 PM
Sunday, February 19, 2012 12:25 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Oh, wait, isn't air "climate" too?
Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:37 PM
OONJERAH
Monday, February 20, 2012 7:30 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:the Earth's most severe extinction event, with up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species becoming extinct. It is the only known mass extinction of insects.Some 57% of all families and 83% of all genera became extinct. Because so much biodiversity was lost, the recovery of life on Earth took significantly longer than after any other extinction event. This event has been described as the "mother of all mass extinctions."
Quote:The Siberian Traps (Russian: Сибирские траппы Sibirskie trappi) form a large region of volcanic rock, known as a large igneous province, in the Russian region of Siberia. The massive eruptive event which formed the traps, one of the largest known volcanic events of the last 500 million years of Earth's geological history, continued for a million years and spanned the Permian–Triassic boundary, about 251 to 250 million years ago.... Vast volumes of basaltic lava paved over a large expanse of primeval Siberia in a flood basalt event. Today the area covered is about 2 million km² – roughly equal to western Europe in land area
Quote:The remains of these eruptions, called the Siberian Traps, now cover about 2 million square kilometers of Russia. ... over 1,000 Gt (Gigatonnes) of magma were released during the eruptions that created them, and they are thought to have put material into a plume that rose over 40 kilometers into the atmosphere. Some researchers... have focused on a secondary effect of the eruptions: burning coal. There is evidence that the hot magma intruded into large deposits of coal found in Siberia and set it alight. Some estimates suggest that over 3 trillion tons of carbon could have been placed into the atmosphere through the burning of coal alone (that's in addition to the carbon dioxide released by the volcanism proper). That release would come in the form of methane, a potent greenhouse gas. Methane is rapidly oxidized into carbon dioxide, which could then contribute to ocean acidification. As if all of that weren't enough, the new paper, published in Nature Geoescience, indicates that the Siberian Traps eruptions might have added another insult to the oceans: toxic coal ash. The authors examined deep ocean sediments from a site that was off the west coast of the supercontinent at the time. To get there with the prevailing winds, material from the eruption would have to travel around the globe, a distance the authors estimate as more than 20,000 kilometers. And yet the sediments contain organic material that, under the microscope, looks remarkably similar to coal ash obtained from a modern power plant. The authors were able to detect three pulses of this material derived from coal burning in the half-million years before the onset of the Great Dying, with the third and most significant ending just as marine life collapsed. Each of them were associated with changes in the carbon cycle, either resulting from the large release of the eruptions themselves, or the burning of organic materials that continued in their wake.
Monday, February 20, 2012 7:44 AM
Quote:Some estimates suggest that over 3 trillion tons of carbon could have been placed into the atmosphere through the burning of coal alone (that's in addition to the carbon dioxide released by the volcanism proper)
Quote:(From wikipedia) one tonne of atmospheric carbon is equivalent to 44/12 or 3.7 tonnes of carbon dioxide).
Quote:(From wikipedia) The burning of fossil fuels produces around 21.3 billion tonnes (21.3 gigatonnes) of carbon dioxide (CO2) per year
Monday, February 20, 2012 7:56 AM
Monday, February 20, 2012 7:58 AM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Monday, February 20, 2012 9:37 AM
Monday, February 20, 2012 9:57 AM
Quote: The Colorado River Commission of Nevada estimates that we will run out of petroleum in 98 years, natural gas in 166 years and coal in 230 years (Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/179884-fossil-fuels-information/#ixzz1mxB4mQRw)
Monday, February 20, 2012 10:00 AM
KPO
Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.
Quote:Thus the prehistoric coal burning event described is equivalent to 521 (modern) years of fuel burning.
Monday, February 20, 2012 10:12 AM
Quote:So our current fossil fuel burning is releasing carbon at a much faster rate - 2000 times as fast (it works out).
Quote:I suspect the volcanic event released much more carbon directly, than it did via the lava flowing through coal fields.
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:50 AM
Quote:Human activities emit roughly 135 times as much climate-warming carbon dioxide as volcanoes each year. Volcanoes emit less than cars and trucks, and less, even, than cement production. Climate change skeptics have claimed the opposite.
Quote: capable of releasing 10,000 Tg of SO2, resulting in atmospheric loadings of 1000 Tg a− 1 during a sustained decade-long eruptive event. We apply this model of flood basalt volcanism to estimate the potential mass of CO2 and SO2 released during formation of the ∼65 Ma Deccan province. The Deccan lava-pile contains the record of hundreds of enormous pāhoehoe flow-fields erupted within a period of about 1 Ma. Consequently, atmospheric perturbations associated with SO2 emissions from just one of these long-lasting eruptions were likely to have been severe, and constantly augmented over a decade or longer. By contrast, the amounts of CO2 released would have been small compared with the mass already present in the atmosphere, and thus much more limited in effect.
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:58 AM
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:08 AM
Quote:Subaerial continental flood basalt volcanism is distinguished from all other volcanic activity by the repeated effusion of huge batches of basaltic magma (~102–103 km3 per eruption) over short periods of geologic time (<1 Myr). Flood basalt provinces are constructed of thick stacks of extensive pahoehoe-dominated lava flow fields and are the products of hundreds of eruptions. Each huge eruption comes from a dyke-fed fissure tens to hundreds of kilometres long and lasts about a decade or more. Such spatial and temporal patterns of lava production do not occur at any other time in Earth history, and, during eruptions, gas fluxes of ~1 Gt per year of SO2 and CO2 over periods of a decade or more are possible. Importantly, the atmospheric cooling associated with aerosols generated from the SO2 emissions of just one flood basalt eruption is likely to have been severe and would have persisted for a decade or longer. By contrast, warming due to volcanogenic CO2 released during an eruption is estimated to have been insignificant because the mass of CO2 would have been small compared to that already present in the atmosphere.
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:27 AM
BYTEMITE
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:31 AM
STORYMARK
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:59 AM
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:03 AM
Quote:"And whether we are the cause or not, we should certainly be looking into surviving it. Alas, we are doing neither of these."
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 2:03 PM
PERFESSERGEE
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Um... I added to my post (above), it's something I'm looking up. There was more than one basalt flood event, altho the Siberian Trappa (Traps) is the largest. One event was during the formation of the Deccan plateau, the other was during the breakup of Pangea. I don't think either of those other two events involved coal fields. Although ALL were related to extinction events, the extinction event from the Siberian Traps was unparalleled. ----------- Quote:Subaerial continental flood basalt volcanism is distinguished from all other volcanic activity by the repeated effusion of huge batches of basaltic magma (~102–103 km3 per eruption) over short periods of geologic time (<1 Myr). Flood basalt provinces are constructed of thick stacks of extensive pahoehoe-dominated lava flow fields and are the products of hundreds of eruptions. Each huge eruption comes from a dyke-fed fissure tens to hundreds of kilometres long and lasts about a decade or more. Such spatial and temporal patterns of lava production do not occur at any other time in Earth history, and, during eruptions, gas fluxes of ~1 Gt per year of SO2 and CO2 over periods of a decade or more are possible. Importantly, the atmospheric cooling associated with aerosols generated from the SO2 emissions of just one flood basalt eruption is likely to have been severe and would have persisted for a decade or longer. By contrast, warming due to volcanogenic CO2 released during an eruption is estimated to have been insignificant because the mass of CO2 would have been small compared to that already present in the atmosphere. gnews.wustl.edu/elements/e1_5/e1_5_art_self.pdf Anyway, there's all kinds of interesting papers on the topic which show that many mass extinctions are associated with large basaltic floods. (A few extinction events are associated with meteor strikes). The Siberian flood was the only one (that I know of) which involved coal fields. There should be a paper out there which looks at the terrestrial die-off versus the oceanic die-off. I expect that the extinction with the highest marine die-offs would reflect the highest carbon dioxide output due to massive long-term ocean acidification, while the extinctions with the largest terrestrial impact would reflect the relatively short-term cooling impacts from sulfur emissions. http://www.semp.us/publications/biot_reader.php?BiotID=681 Either way, what I "get" out of the information is that when you put a lot of shit into the atmosphere, you will wipe out a lot of species.
Wednesday, February 22, 2012 2:43 PM
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