REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

‘Obama was steeped in Islam but knew nothing about Christianity

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 20:39
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4613
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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 3:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

Yesterday, “The Amateur” author Edward Klein spoke on the Sean Hannity show and revealed that Obama’s former Pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright told him that he “made it comfortable” for Obama to accept Christianity without having renounce his “Islamic background,” which Klein said he has on tape.

“Obama was steeped in Islam but knew nothing about Christianity,” Klein says.

Author Edward Klein, a contributing editor to Vanity Fair, former foreign editor of Newsweek, and former editor-in-chief of the New York Times Magazine, wrote “The Amateur”, a prose on one of the most secretive White Houses in history. In his book, he mentions the name of a close ally of President Barack Obama that allegedly offered a $150,000 bribe to Rev. Jeremiah Wright to be quiet until after the 2008 election.

http://www.examiner.com/article/edward-klein-obama-was-steeped-islam-b
ut-knew-nothing-about-christianity





http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/05/jeremiah-wright-i-made-it-comf
ortable-for-obama-to-accept-christianity-without-having-to-renounce-islam
/


So, all those inbred, nut case, ignorant racist teabaggers were right, after all ?

Huh.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 4:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm pretty sure if he "accepted Christianity" more than 20 years ago, he's not a Muslim. Pretty sure that's how it works. You're kinda supposed to choose, one or the other, because they tend to be mutually exclusive religions, both claiming to be the only REAL one.


But I have to ask: as an avowed atheist, do you really care which non-existent invisible sky buddy he believes in, or believed in as a child? Is one less ridiculous than another? What about Romney and the planet Kolob? Why are you so quick to let his wacky-ass beliefs off the hook?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 4:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm pretty sure if he "accepted Christianity" more than 20 years ago, he's not a Muslim. Pretty sure that's how it works. You're kinda supposed to choose, one or the other, because they tend to be mutually exclusive religions, both claiming to be the only REAL one.



And there in lies the point. Barry DIDN'T choose. Rev Wright said it was cool for him to have his cake and eat it too, so to say.

You know, it's funny. Barry spent 20+ years in Rev Wright's " church ", yet he just happened to miss each and every sermon when the Rev went off on how racist America was, or how the JEWS were so evil... missed ALL that hate speech. Incredible, ain't it?

Unlikely, is more accurate.

Quote:


But I have to ask: as an avowed atheist, do you really care which non-existent invisible sky buddy he believes in, or believed in as a child? Is one less ridiculous than another? What about Romney and the planet Kolob? Why are you so quick to let his wacky-ass beliefs off the hook?




Because Romney didn't lie about his wacky-ass beliefs. That's why.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 4:50 PM

WISHIMAY


So. Michelle's the one runnin the show, anyway.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 5:21 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


One's religeon is one's choice, you aren't something because you were born to someone who is. Judaeism is sort of special because its an ethnic identity as well as a religeon, but someone can be Jewish and not practice, or could be ethnically Jewish and choose to believe something different. My friend is a Jewish pagan Atheist, really, I'm not making it up. She's ethnically/historically Jewish, doesn't believe in any deities but believes in a life force that can acomplish things in and through nature. She has been unable to successfully explain how she can be an Atheist and believe in a nature life force at the same time, but that's how she believes even though I don't understand it.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 5:54 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
She has been unable to successfully explain how she can be an Atheist and believe in a nature life force at the same time, but that's how she believes even though I don't understand it.



The basic patterns of life add up to something greater than our paltry concepts of a "god". There is tangible meaning and direction without the personification of a made-up author. Existence, or "nature" IS a force rather than directed by one.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 7:43 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


another sweet baby jesus response from me.

ENOUGH OF THE FUCKING "OBAMA IS A MUSLIM/ JEW/GAY/ FOREIGN" crap

If you don't like his policies or who he is or what religion he is or what colour he is, exercise your democratic right and vote him out in a few months.

Sheesh

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 8:00 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What a silly crock of shit. I agree with the sane people in this thread. The phraseology of the article put up to start this thread is enough to destroy its credibility out the door: the most secretive White House in history? What a laugh.

Riona, bear in mind I'm a buddhist--we have no "god" either--yet I, too, believe in a "nature" life force...I'm not sure I'd put it that way, but I believe in something beautiful in the perfection of nature and organisms, I just don't put a name to it or know what it is. I DO know that it can't be a "god", because so many religions are convinced it's "their" god and all the others are wrong, which means to me that none of them can be right. Whatever "force" or "nature" came together to make things the way they are, it can't have been a god, it's too logical that mankind needed something or someone to explain the unknown, the fearful; that powerful people needed a god to get their people to fight for "their" god; that petty bullies were drawn to the clergy and so many of them utilized the power religion gave them to do horrific things, even right up to today, when they say horrible things about gays, and those who follow them believe those things because "god" is telling them to. Religion is just plain too ugly to have anything to do with having created this world, for me.

Listening to a woman the other night who's against same-sex marriage. She kept going on and on about the usual, "god" saying homosexuality is a sin, where it says so in the Bible, etc. The PASTOR debating her kept bringing up the fact that of all the ugly things the Bible ORDERS people to do--you know like if your eye offends you, rip it out; if a woman isn't a virgin before marriage, or commits adultery, stone her--and kept trying to say that the Bible should be viewed as an allegory and not picked through to choose things that supposedly verify this or that. She just swept it aside, and went back to quoting scripture about homosexuals. That's the thing that blows my mind; if you take your dislike of homosexuality and same-sex marriage from the Bible, don't you have to take EVERYTHING from it? Isn't it an all-or-nothing proposition? If it's not, how do you know what's valid and what isn't? If being homosexual is a sin, then so must be working on Sunday, etc., etc. Always confused me. And always reminded me why I don't believe in a god.

ETA: Posted this and saw Magons' comment: All hail Magons! (They never WILL stop, tho', you do know that, yes?)

ETA2: Hee, hee, hee...just for fun googled, found this:
Quote:

How Much Have Taxpayers Coughed Up for the Most Secretive White House Ever? According to a new study, the Bush administration has spent almost $200 on keeping secrets to every dollar allocated to open them. http://www.alternet.org/story/99080/how_much_have_taxpayers_coughed_up
_for_the_most_secretive_white_house_ever/?page=2
] It's to laugh



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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 10:36 PM

HKCAVALIER


What I want to know is why does Rev. Wright hate Barack Obama so much that he would participate in this? If this is all true, it could, for all he knows, cripple Obama's chance of reelection. And why the hell would he wait until now?

And damn, if you're gonna say Barack Obama is a Muslim, why the hell do you do it so vaguely and in full-on weasel word mode? There is nothing definitive about these aledged comments. What the heck is meant by "Islamic background" exactly? Does Wright believe Obama to be a Muslim or doesn't he? If he does, why doesn't he say so? AND what the hell kind of journalist interviews the guy who says Barack Obama is really a Muslim and DOESN'T ask him to clarify himself? This whole thing smells beyond fishy.

I call bullshit. Is it a requirement that in order to get in the news these days you have to be a complete moron?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 11:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
another sweet baby jesus response from me.

ENOUGH OF THE FUCKING "OBAMA IS A MUSLIM/ JEW/GAY/ FOREIGN" crap

If you don't like his policies or who he is or what religion he is or what colour he is, exercise your democratic right and vote him out in a few months.

Sheesh



Yeah, I get your point, but I think you're missing one yourself here.

This isn't some group of hayseeds calling Obama a Muslim, but his own buddy, his spiritual mentor, Rev Wright, who is basically throwing him under the bus. About religion, about telling the truth, about quite a few things.

And what makes this all the more noteworthy is that it isn't just some guy CLAIMING Rev Wright said these things...he has him on audio tape. Folks can hear him say it, word for word.

And Rev Wright claims to have a box, too. A box containing 'evidence', that he's kept on the things which back up his claims.

Ya gotta ask yourself, as to why a retired Rev, a 'friend' of Obama's for 20 years, would come out NOW ,and start trashing him, after all this time.

Make of it what you will.

Oh, and Niki ?

Quote:


The phraseology of the article put up to start this thread is enough to destroy its credibility out the door: the most secretive White House in history?



So, because you don't like how the title of this thread is worded, you reject the content of the posted article ? Even if you can't debunk it, you'll dismiss it, out of hand, huh?

I see.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 1:25 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


You mean the same Rev. Wright who was thrown under the bus by the President? The same Rev. Wright who was denounced by Obama for the things he said?

I can totally see why Wrigth would not have any harsh feelings towards the President!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 1:31 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Ya gotta ask yourself, as to why a retired Rev, a 'friend' of Obama's for 20 years, would come out NOW ,and start trashing him, after all this time.




So you admit there really is something to the Mitt Romney/Bully charges, right? After all, why would all these people just NOW come out and start trashing him, if they really didn't have something?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:22 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Ya gotta ask yourself, as to why a retired Rev, a 'friend' of Obama's for 20 years, would come out NOW ,and start trashing him, after all this time.




So you admit there really is something to the Mitt Romney/Bully charges, right? After all, why would all these people just NOW come out and start trashing him, if they really didn't have something?



Well, considering that Rev. Wright was paid by Obama's supporters to NOT preach during the 2008 campaign, perhaps the money has stopped flowing to Rev. Wright and he wants to prod the purse to see if he can get it flowing again?

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 5:00 AM

STORYMARK


Funny, he claims to have a tape... but is holding it back.... why?

Yep, sounds like more Hannity flavored Bullshit.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 5:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree, Cav...and
Quote:

You mean the same Rev. Wright who was thrown under the bus by the President? The same Rev. Wright who was denounced by Obama for the things he said?
That might well answer your question. Given what a creep Wright SEEMS to be from the few clips I've seen, that would be right in line.

It's all bullshit anyway; the interpretation is out of left field and has nothing to do with what was posted. If there's something more substantial in the article itself, I'll never see it 'cuz I won't bother. It's just more of the same by people who won't let go; I pity their desperation, but I'm not about to pay attention to it.


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Thursday, May 17, 2012 5:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Ya gotta ask yourself, as to why a retired Rev, a 'friend' of Obama's for 20 years, would come out NOW ,and start trashing him, after all this time.




So you admit there really is something to the Mitt Romney/Bully charges, right?

After all, why would all these people just NOW come out and start trashing him, if they really didn't have something?




Huh?

I never said that, it has no connection to this story... How does your brain even come up w/ such nonsense?

If you can't stick to the topic, why bother posting a reply at all?



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, May 17, 2012 5:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki,

Keep that head shoved firmly ... in the ground.

You'll never have to face that which you don't like.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, May 17, 2012 5:33 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

It's all bullshit anyway;



Yep. It's second hand (at best) and it's on flippin Hannity - who's had a mad hate-on for 4 years now, syas any inflamatroy thing he can - regardless of veracity, has zero cred with anyone outsode the Fox Faithful. Who cares?



ETA (since its not worth a post of its own): Aint it hilarious that the guy who strays from given topics of threads the most, always gets pissy when people don't stick to HIS line of conversation. It's hard not to laugh.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 5:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Actually, the most it ever gets out of me anymore is a snort...predictability gets boring.

And I just figured out where it came from
Quote:

Mitt Romney's campaign on Thursday called for election civility in response to a report that a group of high-profile Republicans are considering plans to mount a provocative campaign against President Barack Obama around the Democratic National Convention.

The New York Times reported Republican strategists are working with billionaire Joe Ricketts to run commercials "linking Mr. Obama to incendiary comments by his former spiritual adviser, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr."

Romney campaign manager Matt Rhoades said "Unlike the Obama campaign, Gov. Romney is running a campaign based on jobs and the economy, and we encourage everyone else to do the same."

"It's clear President Obama's team is running a campaign of character assassination. We repudiate any efforts on our side to do so,'" Rhoades added.

Romney raised Rev. Wright earlier in the 2012 campaign cycle, when he questioned Obama's "philosophical leanings."

"I'm not sure which is worse, him listening to Rev. Wright or him saying that we must be a less Christian nation," Romney said on Sean Hannity's radio show in February.

Strategists told the Times, the plan would "do exactly what John McCain would not let us do." http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/17/romney-campaign-reacts
-to-potential-wright-ad/
"Romney can distance himself, but we'll get it done anyway".

...And typically, after playing dirty during the primaries, Romney can now hold his head up and say "I'm above all that" and let his cohorts do the dirty work.

In other words, same old, same old...here we go again...


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Thursday, May 17, 2012 7:02 AM

HKCAVALIER


The GOP seems to be gearing up to run the stupidest campaign in my lifetime. They're acting as if the last four years never happened and they're still dealing with the "community organizer" from 2004. "The Presidency is not a place for on-the-job training!" Hello? That's the incumbent's line. Good freakin' luck with that, boys.

"He really IS a secret Muslim!" And how has that impacted his first 4 years? Yeah, he's really taken it easy on his Muslim brothers over there in Afghanistan and Pakistan, hasn't he? And his Muslim pal OBL really reaped the benefits of having one of his own in the oval office, didn't he? The GOP is gonna hand this election to Obama.

Poor GOP. See, they can't really worry about the general election until they find a strategy to get the south to vote for a Mormon. So, they trot out the Muslim thing, not to convince the independents and fence sitters not to vote for Obama, but to get the South to do some new calculus: hrm...maybe Mormon is > than black man "steeped in Islam." Maybe, just maybe.

Meanwhile, the Obama team is playin' 'em like a fiddle. Just look how they've scattered after Obama's announcement that he supports same sex marriage. I mean, that's their favorite wedge issue, and they've played it at will to distract the voters from all the real unpleasantness the American people need help with for years. Now, all of a sudden, they're back to "it's really all about jobs and economy, the Administration wastes too much time on social issues"--that's the Democrats' line! After all these years, ya think the GOP is finally gonna come up with a real jobs plan other than cut taxes s'more? "We need more deregulation!" Oh, comedy.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 7:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Okay. Even if Obama were Muslim, I should care why?

There's plenty other reasons to not like the guy without bringing religion into it. I'd say stick to that.

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 7:47 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


TThanks to Niki et all for the explanations of Lifeforce, I really do want to understand how people believe and what they believe in. So where does the power from Lifeforce come from? If everything evolves out of nothing, or space junk and chemicals, where does the supernatural element come from? Its interesting to learn about others' views on the world.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:17 AM

BYTEMITE


autocatalyst plus thermosynthesis pretty much covers it for me. Chemistry eats energy, life and protolife eat energy and poop toxins, and evolution would have been driven towards better more efficient reactions to generate energy and burn energy. Coding for and production of specific proteins and enzymes would eventually tie into that, as would a self-contained lipid bilayer environment which could form spontaneously under conditions at the time, proteins admitted into the bilayer that stabilize the membrane would stick around, along with the protocell with them. tRNA was probably the first genetic coding, since it's already ATTACHED to the amino acids that form the proteins, knock of the amino acids and attach free RNA to the matching groups, there you go, genetic code of messenger RNA, rough reproduction of it could use magnesium ions since that's what the active group of DNA polymerase is based around. Bing bam, replicating "living" organisms as tiny chemical sacks, nothing else required.

The value of any life is the potential impact of it for positive or negative as it makes, organizes and consumes energy. The value of higher lifeforms is that it experiences and observes these impacts and imparts meaning.

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Okay. Even if Obama were Muslim, I should care why?

There's plenty other reasons to not like the guy without bringing religion into it. I'd say stick to that.


Exactly, that's like how my hatred of Romney has shit to do with him being Mormon cause as a rule I am MORE sympathetic to em than most brands of Christianity.

Ain't what someone BELIEVES, it's what they DO!

-Frem

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 11:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Ya gotta ask yourself, as to why a retired Rev, a 'friend' of Obama's for 20 years, would come out NOW ,and start trashing him, after all this time.




So you admit there really is something to the Mitt Romney/Bully charges, right?

After all, why would all these people just NOW come out and start trashing him, if they really didn't have something?




Huh?

I never said that, it has no connection to this story... How does your brain even come up w/ such nonsense?

If you can't stick to the topic, why bother posting a reply at all?






The "topic" I'm sticking to is the idea of someone from a candidate's past coming forward with information that the campaign might find embarrassing. YOU brought that topic to the fore with this thread, so I asked if maybe a similar theme might be found in Romney's "bully" issues.

You seem to be singularly unable to see the common thread here. Perhaps you should pull your head out, but it seems so firmly lodged I doubt you have the ability.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 11:35 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Okay. Even if Obama were Muslim, I should care why?

There's plenty other reasons to not like the guy without bringing religion into it. I'd say stick to that.




Exactly.


What's hilarious is that this attack on Obama's supposed religion comes on the heels of the right crying that nobody better try to denigrate Romney because of his religion!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 11:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Ya gotta ask yourself, as to why a retired Rev, a 'friend' of Obama's for 20 years, would come out NOW ,and start trashing him, after all this time.




So you admit there really is something to the Mitt Romney/Bully charges, right?

After all, why would all these people just NOW come out and start trashing him, if they really didn't have something?




Huh?

I never said that, it has no connection to this story... How does your brain even come up w/ such nonsense?

If you can't stick to the topic, why bother posting a reply at all?






The "topic" I'm sticking to is the idea of someone from a candidate's past coming forward with information that the campaign might find embarrassing. YOU brought that topic to the fore with this thread, so I asked if maybe a similar theme might be found in Romney's "bully" issues.




You're ignoring the issue, and introducing a complete red herring. Why won't you address this issue, here ?

I think we both know.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, May 17, 2012 12:43 PM

STORYMARK


Captain irony strikes again!

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 12:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Captain irony strikes again!



Says the captain himself...



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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Thursday, May 17, 2012 12:59 PM

STORYMARK


Ah, the tried and true "I know you are, what am I defense."

Truely the mark of a mind that didn't get the joke in the first place. Well done, Wilbur.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 1:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Ya gotta ask yourself, as to why a retired Rev, a 'friend' of Obama's for 20 years, would come out NOW ,and start trashing him, after all this time.




So you admit there really is something to the Mitt Romney/Bully charges, right?

After all, why would all these people just NOW come out and start trashing him, if they really didn't have something?




Huh?

I never said that, it has no connection to this story... How does your brain even come up w/ such nonsense?

If you can't stick to the topic, why bother posting a reply at all?






The "topic" I'm sticking to is the idea of someone from a candidate's past coming forward with information that the campaign might find embarrassing. YOU brought that topic to the fore with this thread, so I asked if maybe a similar theme might be found in Romney's "bully" issues.




You're ignoring the issue, and introducing a complete red herring. Why won't you address this issue, here ?

I think we both know.






Is it the same reason you refused to address the issue of Romney being a bully?

Hell, even Romney admitted it, right? I mean, he apologized, so that means he admits to wrongdoing.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:52 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
TThanks to Niki et all for the explanations of Lifeforce, I really do want to understand how people believe and what they believe in. So where does the power from Lifeforce come from? If everything evolves out of nothing, or space junk and chemicals, where does the supernatural element come from? Its interesting to learn about others' views on the world.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.



I don't believe in a lifeforce. No supernatural element is required for life.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 5:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Okay. Even if Obama were Muslim, I should care why?
Because in rappyWorld, that's the scariest boogeyman around.

Really, rappy, instead of projecting your fears on every person and every event, why don't you confront them in the privacy of your own mind?

Oh, that's right.... nevermind.

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 6:09 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
So where does the power from Lifeforce come from?


Well, if you find someone who knows that for sure, you send 'em my way. Same holds true for anybody who ever met a "god"

If I had to guess, I would say order. Circle of life, revolutions of planets, electrons, universes beginning amd ending, strings of particles. Why don't we chuck it all and blow this planet? Order. Why do we learn? Order.
I've always wondered, Why is there order and why is there chaos? 'Cause it's more funner???? Do you really think humanity could ever have the answer? That you or I or your friend or anyone here truly has the answer???
NO.
Where's the freakin Aspirin??? I've got one of those "First World problem of-trying-to-figure-out-the-universe-on-my-scooty puff junior-headaches", again.......



Yanno what, just go with "God did it" if it makes you happy, it's waaaaaaaay easier than trying to think about it.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 1:58 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, the tried and true "I know you are, what am I defense."

Truely the mark of a mind that didn't get the joke in the first place. Well done, Wilbur.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"




Careful, or he'll demand that you "take it back!"


True story. He's actually gotten so desperate that he's resorting to that tactic, like the nine year-old he is.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, May 18, 2012 4:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, Wish said it best for me. I don't need to believe in some paternal entity sitting up somewhere making it happen; in fact I find that far harder to believe than anything else. JMHO.

The rest of this is just the usual bullshit.


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Friday, May 18, 2012 1:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Still trying to figure out why Rappy, who *claims* to be atheist, cares which sky-buddy Obama believes in now, or believed in as a child, or whether it matters one way or the other.

I find it somewhat telling that he refuses to address that issue.


As an atheist myself, should I have a problem with Mittens Romney's particular brand of cult belief? Is he somehow crazier than a "real" Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or any other kind of "true believer"?

Or should I care more about what he DOES than about what he professes to believe?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:46 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Kwicko,

Your attitude toward religion reminds me an awful lot of the Catholic attitude toward sin: sin is sin, whether we're talking about pedophilia or taking the Lord's name in vain, it's all the same, condemned by God, etc. I don't see how you can say that all religion is equally wrong when different religions uphold very different ideals and advocate different behavior.

One of the creepiest things about Islam to me, f'rinstance, is that their holiest individual was given to beheading people. Hence, if you want to aspire to be like the Prophet then beheading is AOK on that score. I think that's effed up. Jesus, on the other hand, preached nonviolence and aside from busting up a few tables, he absolutely walked that talk. And we all know the god of the Old Testament was a brutal, unforgiving SOB. So, given a choice between a Muslim, a New Testament Christian and a Fundy, I'd have to say I'll go with the mere Christian every time.

Then here comes Mormonism, an entirely arbitrary parasite on Christianity invented in the last century by a guy who wanted to justify whatever he was into--screwing around on his wife, racism, killin' Injuns 'cause they stole America from white people(!)--and I'm even more uneasy than with the more tried and true belief systems.

How 'bout this: would you be comfortable with a President who was a Scientologist?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 9:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

killin' Injuns 'cause they stole America from white people(!)


Technically his beef with the Indians is more that they were sitting on his "Promised Land." Which if you think about it wasn't really his since THEY were the ones living there...

I dunno, have some serious questions about the practices and beliefs of EVERY religion, so I don't really have a preference towards any of them, and Christian-lite seems just as inexplicable to me as Christian-crazy-fundie or Muslim. So I'm with Kwicko here - I don't really care WHAT anyone believes, they're all the same to me.

When one person starts snarking at someone else about religious beliefs, it mostly brings to my mind that old adage about stones and glass houses.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 9:57 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I would posit that most people's daily interactions with 'religious people' are pretty much the same. So no matter what the belief is supposed to be, 'religious people' probably seem to be the no more or less desirable no matter what they profess to believe in.

'Religious people' who are well-behaved are probably also not flaunting their religion, so their behavior is rarely factored into the equation.

Tell me, if you are a christian, do you find that christians act very christianlike?

I am a christian and I often feel the answer is no.

So one might forgive someone the confusion of equating Muslims to Christians and whatnot. From their perspective, there probably isn't any discernable difference.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 10:07 AM

HKCAVALIER


Byte,

So all religions (and by extention, for practical purposes, all religious people of any kind) are equally irrational and therefore not worth your time to discern differences? So everyone but the athiests are beyond consideration as rational beings. What a miserable world.

And that last bit about snarking, is that directed at me?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 10:24 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I would posit that most people's daily interactions with 'religious people' are pretty much the same.

Hey Anthony,

I don't see where you get that at all. I mean, a lot of people simply may not pay a lot of attention to other folks religious views unless they get all up in their grill with 'em, but not to discern differences in people is just incurious. My daily interactions with different 'religious people' are all over the map. Positive, negative, subtle, overt. How could they not be?

This is all kind of weird to me. It's fascinating to see what happens when one stumbles upon the right question--I seem to have opened up a window on some kind of bizarre reverse marginalization of the vast majority of people on this planet because they hold ANY religious views whatsoever.

If you have more to say on the subject I would appreciate it, because right now it's not making a lick o' sense for people to write off every religious person they encounter as equally untrustworthy and irrational.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 10:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
One of the creepiest things about Islam to me, f'rinstance, is that their holiest individual was given to beheading people. Hence, if you want to aspire to be like the Prophet then beheading is AOK on that score. I think that's effed up.


So did he, off and on - thing most folk don't understand is that Mohammed probably would have laughed in their face at the idea of holding him up as a role model, cause he was NOT a nice dude a lot of the time.

And yet, this is a guy who doted on his cat, and wrote probably the first real example of official religious freedom and tolerance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina
http://www.constitution.org/cons/medina/macharter.htm

Funny thing, I've invoked it on one of our residents during a dispute with his neighbor, he was stunned I ever knew what it was much less it's contents.

Oh, and if you read the Bible carefully, you'll realize Jesus was kind of a dick too.

One of the more eloqent concepts of mine own beliefs is that the powers that be are every bit as petty, foolish and fallible as we are, oftentimes more so - the Greeks kinda had a similar view.

-Frem

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 11:06 AM

HKCAVALIER


Ack! Et tu Frem? Please, help me out: "kind of a dick" /= habitual beheading! What are you talking about?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 3:41 PM

FREMDFIRMA



That prophets are not only not infallible - they're not even generally models of good behavior.
I find it ironic that many of the early Christian "Saints" were real pieces of work.
Humans are human, capable of great good, great ill, often at the same time, full of flaws, hypocrisies, blind spots, stupidity - yet also humanity, generosity, and tolerance whether they be prophet or joe sixpack.

What you DO means more than any belief, any supposed authority from some greater power, and no one, not even a prophet, lives up to their ideals every day, all the time - so why the hell would we think the greater powers are any better, certainly their own behavior has shown us evidence to the contrary.

Ergo, I wouldn't take the word of a prophet OR their diety as infallible or accurate.
Most of the more decent religious people I know take a rather loose interpretation of their belief, as a set of general guidelines rather than law set in stone, and most Vajrayana, few that there are, don't even do that but lampoon and mock their own belief system AS part of that belief system...

Anyhows, I wouldn't put too much faith in prophets of any kind.

-Frem

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 11:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Cavalier,

Let me help you with the atheist's guide to religious people.

Religious Person - Someone who talks about God a lot and uses their belief in God to justify some crazy shit.

A Religious Person can be Christian, Muslim, whatever.

Typically, Religious Persons are seen on news reports about shocking behavior. Sometimes they come knocking at your door when you are otherwise occupied and try to convince you that their path is better than yours.

In creative media, Religious Persons are usually either
A) Holding bizarre beliefs
B) Advocating something terrible
C) Exorcising evil spirits
D) Summoning evil spirits
E) Abusing Someone
F) Taking people's money
or
G) Providing Comic Relief

Religious People routinely assign the status of 'fact' to a lot of unprovable nonsense and disdain people who do not. The process of accepting unprovable nonsense is often referred to as 'faith' and rather than being a sign of madness, it is considered an admirable thought process.

Now, given this information, why do you suppose a Non-Religious person would feel the need to make deep and meaningful discernments about Religious People? Most especially consider the fact that Religious People of all labels have participated in Terrible Shit. So how does one belief or another seem more or less benign to an atheist?

To an atheist, I imagine the world of Religious People feels a lot like you might feel if you wandered into an insane asylum.

I think the ability to step outside yourself and view yourself from an alien perspective is a valuable life skill.

--Anthony






Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 2:37 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Anthony's got it.


As a non-religious person, I don't really care WHAT you believe, but I care what you DO with that belief. As such, fundamentalist Islam is essentially zero threat to me, practically speaking. There is a vanishingly small chance that I'm going to be negatively impacted by the direct actions of a fundamentalist Muslim.

There is FAR more danger to me at this point in time, in this country today, from fundamentalist Christians.

Both groups would gladly see non-religious people like myself put to death, and both have advocated for it. In America today, though, only one group is trying to pass laws that would curtail my rights and the rights of others who believe differently than they do. And that group is not Muslims, so yes, I view Christianity as at least as evil as Islam, due to its direct actions in the name of "faith".

Were I atheist in Lebanon, I might feel quite differently about it. Were I atheist in Israel, I might, too.

You say Muslims believe in "habitual beheading"; I'm curious, HK, how do you justify the death penalty? If, as we're constantly being told by the right, we are indeed a "Christian nation", then how can you justify state-sponsored murder in the name of your alleged prophet of peace?

As I said, I don't care what you believe; I care what you DO.

Romney's about as Mormon as Gingrich is Catholic. Neither of them believe the first thing about their so-caled "faith"; they use it as a convenient hook to hang their political hat and to lure in the suckers. And if Obama is Muslim, he's terrible at it.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey Kwicko,

Your attitude toward religion reminds me an awful lot of the Catholic attitude toward sin: sin is sin, whether we're talking about pedophilia or taking the Lord's name in vain, it's all the same, condemned by God, etc. I don't see how you can say that all religion is equally wrong when different religions uphold very different ideals and advocate different behavior.



I hold all religions equally bad when their scriptures are used by zealots to justify murder. I also hold them equally bad when such behavior is codified into law, whether it be by an Islamic theocracy or a Christian one.

Quote:


One of the creepiest things about Islam to me, f'rinstance, is that their holiest individual was given to beheading people.



Yes, that's disturbing. Almost as disturbing as believing in a deity that would wipe entire cities off the map for "sin", or condemn people to eternal torment for their actions during their short lifetime - or in the case of some, damn them to hell for not being "born again."

I could never follow any religion that espoused such hogwash, and I find it bizarre that others can, and gleefully do, and then they rationalize it all away, just like they rationalize away their own bad behavior which under their very own beliefs should damn them to eternal torment.

Quote:


Hence, if you want to aspire to be like the Prophet then beheading is AOK on that score. I think that's effed up. Jesus, on the other hand, preached nonviolence and aside from busting up a few tables, he absolutely walked that talk. And we all know the god of the Old Testament was a brutal, unforgiving SOB. So, given a choice between a Muslim, a New Testament Christian and a Fundy, I'd have to say I'll go with the mere Christian every time.



By "mere Christian" do you mean someone who believes nothing from the Old Testament? I've yet to meet anyone fitting that description, who believes in the word of Jesus and throws out literally everything in the O.T.

Quote:


Then here comes Mormonism, an entirely arbitrary parasite on Christianity invented in the last century by a guy who wanted to justify whatever he was into--screwing around on his wife, racism, killin' Injuns 'cause they stole America from white people(!)--and I'm even more uneasy than with the more tried and true belief systems.



But from a purely realistic standpoint, isn't EVERY branch of Christianity "an entirely arbitrary parasite" that grew out of the host religion? Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics, Branch Davidians... all grew from a common root - the same common root as Judaism and Islam.

So yes, I find it more than a bit comical when anyone tries to tell me that all the others are horseshit and wrong, and THEIR religion is "the one true" religion.

Quote:


How 'bout this: would you be comfortable with a President who was a Scientologist?



As comfortable as I'd be with a Catholic, a Mormon, a Muslim, or a Jewish president. I'd be more comfortable with a Buddhist president, but good luck with that...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 6:38 AM

HKCAVALIER


(Edited for proper attribution)

Hey y'all,

Af first blush, I'm thinking this is an impossible conversation. The leaps in logic, the astonishing rancor and the wholesale misunderstanding of my questions here take my breath away. Kwicko, for cryin' out loud I never said "Muslims believe in 'habitual beheading.'" That goes beyond misreading my comments to some bizarre hysterical extreme. Do you think I'm being hysterical? I said the Prophet Mohamed beheaded people. That is disturbing to me. Jesus never did. I was just saying, as a role model, I would prefer the pacifist over the killer. I was making a very basic distinction. We all have stories that we tell ourselves and stories that we revere. All I'm saying is that these stories matter and some are more wholesome than others.

And Anthony, your list of what "religious" people do is about as convincing as Wulfenstar's rants about what "black" people do. It's pure bigotry, however born out by personal experience. Particularly when "religion" encompasses EVERYTHING other than atheism to the atheist in these arguments.

And Kwicko, if you've never met a Christian who doesn't believe in the Old Testament, you need to get out more. Seriously. Jesus in the book is pretty explicit on that point.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:


One of the creepiest things about Islam to me, f'rinstance, is that their holiest individual was given to beheading people.



Yes, that's disturbing. Almost as disturbing as believing in a deity that would wipe entire cities off the map for "sin", or condemn people to eternal torment for their actions during their short lifetime - or in the case of some, damn them to hell for not being "born again."

Oh man, Kwicko, I know things are going south in a conversation with you when you start treating me like AURaptor. All that says to me is that you are not even willing to imagine a world where you and I could have a simple conversation about any of this. It makes me sad.

Quote:

I could never follow any religion that espoused such hogwash, and I find it bizarre that others can, and gleefully do, and then they rationalize it all away, just like they rationalize away their own bad behavior which under their very own beliefs should damn them to eternal torment.
Again, this is bigotry and rage, however well founded in personal experience. I've known plenty of Christians who are in no way "gleeful" about much of anything. Have you ever met an actual Catholic? (Oh crap, now you're gonna pummel me with URL's to the Catholic League website, etc. Please don't. I'm not here to arm wrestle with you.)

Quote:

But from a purely realistic standpoint, isn't EVERY branch of Christianity "an entirely arbitrary parasite" that grew out of the host religion? Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics, Branch Davidians... all grew from a common root - the same common root as Judaism and Islam.
What? Kwicko, you're a smart man. Do you know anything about the history of Christianity? Most of the major sects you refer to came to be because of disagreements about the interpretation of a single book in two sections. The Bible, as you know, is very self-contradictory, so people trying to follow it as "the word of God" get into disagreements. Mormonism's only link to Christianity is that Joseph Smith included one of its main characters in his own book. Joseph Smith was a Mason, and Masons are not Christian.

All those other sects are like us here arguing about whether Firefly is fundamentally leftist or libertarian in its message. Mormonism is the guy who brings in his own fanfic and argues from that.

Quote:

So yes, I find it more than a bit comical when anyone tries to tell me that all the others are horseshit and wrong, and THEIR religion is "the one true" religion.
Non sequitur.

Well, gentlemen, that wasn't any fun. It's so weird to come here sometimes. I see the endless haranguing back and forth between the lefties and the righties and I think I steer clear for the most part. I think I've established sufficient rapport with the two of you, at least, that I can have a serious conversation with you without anyone bringing out the giant strawmen and the false equivalencies and the needless rancor at third parties channeled at me as their de facto "representative" and then I wake up this morning. I've come to like and respect the both of you greatly, but if you can't tone the rhetoric down and just talk to me here then there's no point in continuing this. Sorry.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, May 20, 2012 7:02 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Anthony, for cryin' out loud I never said "Muslims believe in 'habitual beheading.'"


Hello,

Did I claim you made such a statement?

Quote:

Do you think I'm being hysterical?


I think that, in order to have this discussion productively, you will need to unplug your emotions and understand what people are telling you from a clinical distance.

Quote:

And your list of what "religious" people do is about as convincing as Wulfenstar's rants about what "black" people do. It's pure bigotry, however born out by personal experience. Particularly when "religion" encompasses EVERYTHING other than atheism to the atheist in these arguments.


I think there is a heaping mountain of similarity between the following things:

A) Wulf's beliefs about black people.
B) Atheists beliefs about Religious People.
C) Religious People about other Religious People
D) Wulf's beliefs about himself and Religious people's beliefs about themselves.

So if my 'guide to atheists' seemed like a heap of uninformed bigotry, then you begin to understand the fundamental disconnect between atheists and religious people. I assure you the disconnect travels in both directions. My wife is currently in a class with a dozen Christians who almost universally regard atheists as substandard and potentially dangerous.

Quote:

And Kwicko, if you've never met a Christian who doesn't believe in the Old Testament, you need to get out more.


Mike has indeed met such a Christian. Me. But I have 'gotten out more' and I know that Christians who discount the Old Testament as distorted hogwash that ought to be abandoned are rare. Just ask 100 Christians about homosexuality. (I again am reminded of abominable things being said in my wife's class at a Christian university.)

If you are truly interested in this conversation, Cavalier, you are going to have to step outside of yourself first, and truly view 'Religious People' the way an alien creature might view 'Humanity' upon visiting the Earth. Then you will understand the opposing viewpoint and be able to make observations that deal with their preconceptions.

I note for the record that an Alien would probably find little discernible difference between 'Religious Humans' and 'Non Religious Humans.' Sincere apologies to my atheist friends.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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