Cheney crawls out from under his rock...again... by Niki2

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

By that logic, wouldn't you be saying that Bush keeping Tenet on was a sign that Clinton was a genius, PN?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:03 PM

TRAVELER

Yes. Thank you Bush for going into Iraq and killing thousands, both U.S. military, its supporters and innocent civilians so we could remove a dictatorship. If getting rid of a dictatorship was the main goal of attacking Iraq, then why was that not made clear to the people and not the rhetoric about weapons of mass destruction and terrorists.

Which brings up another point. What gives us the right to oversee the removing of dictatorships and creating democracies? Do we have some special mandate to start a war with any nation we feel does not meet our standards? Are our own standards so high that we can claim this right? If another nation feels it has higher standards of personal freedom have the right to invade and dictate their standards on us?

And this guy still defends waterboarding. We have just witnessed a former soldier waterboard his four year old child. Does that not tell him the destruction such acts cause. This act of a father to his child shows the damage it does, not only to the victim of torture, but also the persecutor of this act. We, the United States, at the end of WWII, put Japanese on trail for war crimes and amongst them was waterboarding. So we go from condemning it in WWII to justifying against suspected terrorists.

Please go to Wikipedia to see the full background of waterboarding. It is to long to quote the entire article here.

And this takes me to another point. How many new terrorists filled the ranks of the extremist Al-Qaeda after learning of our torturing? We proved to them that we are the devils that they have claimed. Albeit the war on Iraq was also enlisting new members to their ranks.

Sorry for the rant. Cheney gets under my skin.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:26 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
"I do see repeatedly examples that there are key members in the administration -- like Eric Holder, for example, the attorney general -- that still insist upon thinking of terror attacks against the United States as criminal acts of war," Cheney said.

Quote:
"You have to consider it as a war," Cheney said. "You have to consider it as something we may have to deal with tomorrow."

Contradict yourself much, Dick? I need to watch the full video to see if Karl called him on that one.

ETA: Niki, that first quote in not correct. What Cheney said is "I do see repeatedly examples that there are key members in the administration -- like Eric Holder, for example, the attorney general -- that still insist upon thinking of terror attacks against the United States as criminal acts, as opposed to acts of war."

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
Yes. Thank you Bush for going into Iraq and killing thousands, both U.S. military, its supporters and innocent civilians so we could remove a dictatorship. If getting rid of a dictatorship was the main goal of attacking Iraq, then why was that not made clear to the people and not the rhetoric about weapons of mass destruction and terrorists.

Which brings up another point. What gives us the right to oversee the removing of dictatorships and creating democracies? Do we have some special mandate to start a war with any nation we feel does not meet our standards? Are our own standards so high that we can claim this right? If another nation feels it has higher standards of personal freedom have the right to invade and dictate their standards on us?

And this guy still defends waterboarding. We have just witnessed a former soldier waterboard his four year old child. Does that not tell him the destruction such acts cause. This act of a father to his child shows the damage it does, not only to the victim of torture, but also the persecutor of this act. We, the United States, at the end of WWII, put Japanese on trail for war crimes and amongst them was waterboarding. So we go from condemning it in WWII to justifying against suspected terrorists.

Please go to Wikipedia to see the full background of waterboarding. It is to long to quote the entire article here.

And this takes me to another point. How many new terrorists filled the ranks of the extremist Al-Qaeda after learning of our torturing? We proved to them that we are the devils that they have claimed. Albeit the war on Iraq was also enlisting new members to their ranks.

Sorry for the rant. Cheney gets under my skin.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

or removing democracys and establishing dictatorships....

Bush/Cheney may have been the worse, but they are not alone in their actions...

I find it hard to think of another US administration post WW2 anyway who didn't pull something similar, somewhere...

and the Japanese the US put on trial for waterboarding were executed... it says alot about how the US perceives justice internationally when Obama gave blanket immunity to everyone involved... I think he should have been stripped of his peace prize for that alone.

Perhaps this is a problem with the amount of power lying with the executive in the US ?

Maybe some kind of limits need to be put into place ?

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:46 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Perhaps this is a problem with the amount of power lying with the executive in the US ?

Well, if Dumbya/Cheney was any example: Hell YES!

And yes, we've been doing the same thing for generations...however, I find what the Dumby administration did far more egregious than anything we KNOW about what others did. Out-and-out torture, warrantless wiretaps...anyone else would have been impeached a dozen times over!

But hey, let's go after a guy who can't keep it in his pocket and lied about it. I wonder if anyone actually knows all the lies--about AMERICA, about important things--Dumbya et. al are guilty of? Or if we'll EVER?

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 1:45 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
If [the administration is] going to take credit for [Iraq's success], fair enough ... but it ought to come with a healthy dose of 'Thank you, George Bush' up front and a recognition that some of their early recommendations with respect to prosecuting that war were just dead wrong," Cheney told ABC News' Jonathan Karl.

Yep. All of Obama's successes are solely thanks to W/Cheney. Of course, the economy and the national debt have nothing at all to do with the previous administration and how dare anyone suggest such a thing!

How typical of the Faux/Republicans.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 2:00 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You got it! "We did the good stuff; don't blame us for the bad stuff!" Hey, works for them!

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 2:05 PM

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 2:18 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hee, hee, hee; I heard Cheney LIKED the nickname...which says it all, don't it?

"Darth Cheney"...has a kind of ring to it, you have to admit...

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:10 PM

KIRKULES

I’ve always liked Dick Cheney, but now I just wish he’d go away and be a dignified former Vice President. I liked Jimmy Carter when he was President but his antics since really grate on my nerves. I wish they’d follow the example that Clinton and the Bushes have set and just go back to private lives.

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:28 PM

i think he did some good as secretary of defense, but he was also involved in many things at the time which didn't come out until much later I think were very wrong, but then he was under orders... not a real justification, but not a complete condemnation either.

As VP, I really think his positions were biased to supporting his own agenda, and that agenda was not the best route for the US... and not only that he was a cult of personality which pushed out any opposing opinions, forcing his own policy's through, and those foreign policy decisions I do take issue with.

His legacy, as well as both Bushs are tarnished now... a quiet retirement for all might be best

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I liked Jimmy Carter when he was President but his antics since really grate on my nerves.

Oh, you mean that whole peace and negotiation thing instead of USA! USA! USA! WAR! WAR! WAR! KILL! KILL! KILL! - right ?

I can see how that would annoy you, yeah.

Seriously, one of the things I *liked* about Carter was how he never stepped away, even when he wasn't president anymore he continued to travel the world trying to make it a better place, established the Carter Center, and tries to this very day to aid negotiation and conflict resolution without violence.

And while I might not always agree with his efforts or how they're carried out, it's a damned sight better than simply lobbing bombs and bullets at people, and then using their response in kind to do it some more, over and over again.

Ponder this - even if you COULD kill everyone who disagrees with you, the world would be a really lonely place, wouldn't it ?

-F

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
Yes. Thank you Bush for going into Iraq and killing thousands, both U.S. military, its supporters and innocent civilians so we could remove a dictatorship. If getting rid of a dictatorship was the main goal of attacking Iraq, then why was that not made clear to the people and not the rhetoric about weapons of mass destruction and terrorists.

i think you already know the answer to that- because that wasnt their primary goal! although the resolution to authorize force came under the Clinton administration, but obviously it goes back even further then that, since Saddam was our puppet for the longest time.

Quote:
Which brings up another point. What gives us the right to oversee the removing of dictatorships and creating democracies? Do we have some special mandate to start a war with any nation we feel does not meet our standards? Are our own standards so high that we can claim this right? If another nation feels it has higher standards of personal freedom have the right to invade and dictate their standards on us?

well we dont have the 'right', per se- its more the assigned duty on behalf of our masters. ya see it doesnt matter which partys in charge, the foreign policy never changes.. and wont change, until the NWO has achieved its objectives. example: Obama runs as an anti-war candidate, then takes office and expands the wars. if i thought they were sincere in their intentions, at best it could be described 'perpetual war for perpetual peace.' unfortunately, its probably closer to 'order out of chaos', a new world (order) to be precise

Quote:
And this guy still defends waterboarding. We have just witnessed a former soldier waterboard his four year old child. Does that not tell him the destruction such acts cause. This act of a father to his child shows the damage it does, not only to the victim of torture, but also the persecutor of this act. We, the United States, at the end of WWII, put Japanese on trail for war crimes and amongst them was waterboarding. So we go from condemning it in WWII to justifying against suspected terrorists.

well, we also havent declared a war through congress since WW2 either. thats whats so sinister about it.. we're basically performing police actions on a global scale. in their genius theyve somewhat created a loophole that allows them to take such extreme measures under whatever pretense they choose, and under the guise of 'national security'. take for example the patriot act: if we are constantly in a state of war, perpetual warfare, when would we expect to retire the legislation? since theyve now broadened the scope to include 'domestic terrorists', has it then become a permanant, standard function of law enforcement? its a terrible precedent, it just opens the door for the possibility that one day US citizens could be waterboarded as well

Quote:

And this takes me to another point. How many new terrorists filled the ranks of the extremist Al-Qaeda after learning of our torturing? We proved to them that we are the devils that they have claimed. Albeit the war on Iraq was also enlisting new members to their ranks.

Sorry for the rant. Cheney gets under my skin.

thats probably the most important point. as long as we are seen as occupiers, we will be treated as such. but notice, what is Obama doing differently? hes expanding the wars! if we can all agree that our very presence there, regardless of our intentions, creates this resentment and fuels this hatred, how do we expect this to change by further occupying there lands?

my gut tells me that a terrorist isnt motivated by his dislike of western culture or our freedoms. its more likely that our meddling in their affairs, propping up dictators, covertly overthrowing elected leaders, all the bombings and civilian casualties, permanant bases and the occupation of their lands. its our entire foreign policy that has made us unsafe, so as long as we continue invading and occupying these lands, we will recieve the blowback that comes with it.

but its not just Bush/Cheney, Obama/Biden are continuing the policies! we're still there, and the wars are expanding! perhaps what is most puzzling is the dissapearance of the anti-war left. i hear the contempt for Bush/Cheney, yet i hear hardly a peep about the continuation of the policies under Obama.. suddenly everything is kosher. its very disconcerting, im not sure if Obama supporters actually believed his rhetoric during the campaign that he'd immediately withdraw troops from the region.. or what. it should be clear now however that WE'RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE!! the military industrial complex runs the show, and Obama, like Bush, is just another puppet.

hes just black, so you all trust him. hes not an evil white guy

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

thats probably the most important point. as long as we are seen as occupiers, we will be treated as such. but notice, what is Obama doing differently? hes expanding the wars! if we can all agree that our very presence there, regardless of our intentions, creates this resentment and fuels this hatred, how do we expect this to change by further occupying there lands?

That's why Obama is sucking. The punk.

The angry Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 14, 2010 9:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

thats probably the most important point. as long as we are seen as occupiers, we will be treated as such. but notice, what is Obama doing differently? hes expanding the wars! if we can all agree that our very presence there, regardless of our intentions, creates this resentment and fuels this hatred, how do we expect this to change by further occupying there lands?

That's why Obama is sucking. The punk.

The angry Chrisisall

Obamas problem is the democrat party as much as inexperience

Notice his defense and intell advisors are the same as Bushs, and as foreign policy isn't a specialty of his... there he is cowed into taking advise he shouldn't

add his chief of staff whom I fiqure keeps him for hearing much otherwise...

we have the recipe for Bush Redux

Obama wanted to make domestic changes, but walking into the economic mess he did, and having the yokels and worse embedded in congress he does...

If he put Hillary and Rahm Emanuel on waivers or just axes them... hope may be restored. If not.....

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 15, 2010 3:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:

thats probably the most important point. as long as we are seen as occupiers, we will be treated as such. but notice, what is Obama doing differently? hes expanding the wars! if we can all agree that our very presence there, regardless of our intentions, creates this resentment and fuels this hatred, how do we expect this to change by further occupying there lands?

That's why Obama is sucking. The punk.

The angry Chrisisall

Can somebody please show me where Obama's expanding the war in Iraq? Last time I checked, pulling troop levels down from 160,000 to 112,000 wasn't really an "expansion". Or am I missing something?

And if you don't mean he's expanding the war in Iraq, then please stop saying that he is. It makes it all to easy to dismiss every other thing you bring up, because you can be shown to CLEARLY be lying.

Just sayin'.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 15, 2010 5:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Can somebody please show me where Obama's expanding the war in Iraq? Last time I checked, pulling troop levels down from 160,000 to 112,000 wasn't really an "expansion". Or am I missing something?

I want them out faster; faster would be better.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 15, 2010 6:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Can somebody please show me where Obama's expanding the war in Iraq? Last time I checked, pulling troop levels down from 160,000 to 112,000 wasn't really an "expansion". Or am I missing something?

I want them out faster; faster would be better.

The laughing Chrisisall

Never there in the first place would be better, actually. Since there was never any valid reason for them to be there...

Waiting...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 15, 2010 6:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Waiting...

Heh, me too...

*whistles*

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 15, 2010 7:32 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Gino, do you truly believe Cheney acted “under orders”? I tend to think Cheney, Rove, and their cronies really RAN Dumbya---maybe efficiently enough that he didn’t know they were doing it. But I don’t think Dumbya was the power in the throne, by any means, except when he was truly bent on his own agenda (Iraq?).

Frem: On Carter, a resounding “YES!” I’ve always admired the man...a good man but either too weak or too naïve, never been sure which...or both. But everything he’s done since then,

!

Anti, “yes” and “yes”...”perpetual war for perpetual peace” I like that! I disagree however that the foreign policy never changes...perhaps the GOALS (tho’ even there I have doubts), but the methods; the difference between Dumbya’s crowd bullying the UN and the rest of the world and Obama’s respect is vast, and because the two administrations were back to back, makes the contrast all the more dramatic.

I tend to think that whatever ADMINISTRATION is in power doesn’t necessarily drive our “foreign policy” (if you want to call it that). I think the Pentagon is the power, the military has its agenda, and no President has been powerful enough to really stand up to them.

Right on about

Quote:
we also havent declared a war through congress since WW2 either. thats whats so sinister about it.. we're basically performing police actions on a global scale. in their genius theyve somewhat created a loophole that allows them to take such extreme measures under whatever pretense they choose, and under the guise of 'national security'. take for example the patriot act: if we are constantly in a state of war, perpetual warfare, when would we expect to retire the legislation?

I was shocked to find we’ve technically been in a “state of war” since KOREA...you’re right, it’s a perpetual situation now. It’s scary, the loophole they’ve found (or created?), exploited and made permanent.

We can’t “all” agree that

Quote:
that our very presence there, regardless of our intentions, creates this resentment and fuels this hatred

because that would include me, and I can’t in good conscience agree with that. I post a lot on Afghanistan because it’s dear to my heart; dunno if you’ve been around since I arrived, but I lived there, and I don’t agree with that. Yes, as long as we’re seen as conquerors and occupiers, you’re right, but I don’t believe it’s our very presence, it’s how it’s being USED. So we’ll have to agree to disagree on that point.
.
As to the paragraph after that, a resounding ABSOFRIGGINLOOTELY! You nailed it! There’s a good book on that, damn, I can’t remember the name—actually there are probably a number of them, about how our dealings with the world brought 9/11 down on our own heads. Simplistic, admittedly, but our government(s) DO own a lot of the blame for the hatred of us around the world.

At this time I’m pretty damned left, so I can say that no, we’re not all silent, by a long shot. We’re quite vocal, just not protesting publicly much...YET! The sop that he’d expand troops but get us out has a lot of people waiting and watching. It doesn’t matter who has us In a war, we’re watching. If what you said was true, gee, I guess I didn’t take part in ANY protests of the Vietnam War, since we here in SF were part of the May 2, 1964 first major student demonstration against the war hundreds of students march through Times Square in New York City, while another 700 march in San Francisco, and our “beloved” Kennedy started it and Democrat Johnson was in office. Remember those? I wasn’t in that one, but subsequent ones, so your theory is fallacious.

Currently it’s less muted, awaiting developments, but it’s started and will enlarge as time goes by. Supposedly Iraq is counting down, and there’s the pomise to get out of Afghanistan, but no, we don’t trust it You must have missed this one, shortly after Obama came into office:

Quote:
Washington, Mar.22 Marking the sixth anniversary of the US invasion of Iraq, hundreds of American staged demonstrations protesting their country's involvement in war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The protestors, mostly war veterans and high school students were more muted but no less fervent than those in huge demonstrations of years past. Some were critical of the new US President Barack Obama saying he has opposed the war, yet he appears to be going ahead with some of the Bush administration's most controversial policies.

"The president may have changed but the war is the same," they said. Anti-war protestors also marched in several areas in Washington against the Iraq war. The protestors, in demonstration named "March towards the Pentagon, set up placards demanding an end to the Iraq war. The occupation of Iraq has not ended, and the occupation of Afghanistan is escalating, some said.

During the demonstration, war protestors were carrying around 150 cardboard coffins wrapped with US flags symbolizing US killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Before ending their demonstration Saturday afternoon, several placed cardboard coffins in front of the offices of northern Virginia defense contractors such as KBR Inc. and Lockheed Martin Corp. as riot police stood by.

http://www.petra.gov.jo/Artical.aspx?Lng=1&Section=3&Artical=94634

And, even back last December, maybe you missed this one (with photos):

Quote:
Hundreds of people turned out Wednesday night to rally and march against Obama’s ’surge’ in Afghanistan. Billions more for war, misery and death abroad, billions less for human needs at home.

http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/12/03/in-pictures-hundreds-american
s-protest-obama-surge-in-afghanistan/

Thing is, it doesn’t get much, if any, press...which says a lot about the MEDIA, not the protesters. It will enlarge, in time, if we don’t see movement. It’s possible many, like me, think Obama tried yet another of his “compromises” with the surge, giving in to sending some, not as much as the military wanted, and offering the sop that there’s a deadline to get out. I hate it, but I'm still waiting. We’ll see.

Quote:
he is cowed into taking advise he shouldn't add his chief of staff whom I fiqure keeps him for hearing much otherwise...

That’s part of what I think, too.

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:46 AM

When he was Secretary of Defense... Yes

when he was VP no

Perhaps protests would fire up more if the US reinstated the draft ?

As it is it seems the dire state of the US economy may be enough to produce cannon fodder, but either a draft or a war tax to pay for these fiascos up front would show what support really exists,,,

" that our very presence there, regardless of our intentions, creates this resentment and fuels this hatred

because that would include me, and I can’t in good conscience agree with that. I post a lot on Afghanistan because it’s dear to my heart; dunno if you’ve been around since I arrived, but I lived there, and I don’t agree with that. Yes, as long as we’re seen as conquerors and occupiers, you’re right, but I don’t believe it’s our very presence, it’s how it’s being USED. So we’ll have to agree to disagree on that point. "

The problem I think with your point here Niki, is you are looking at things as how they were back in the 50's. The US is viewed VERY differently overseas nowdays, and to find that goodwill again you might need to leave for awhile. Fix some of the other bad policys you have across the middleeast, then re-engage in a more positive way.

I thought maybe after his Cairo speech Obama understood that, now I doubt it

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 8:59 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yes, I had hope Obama understood at first too, but I doubt Obama or anyone in our government understands it; Obama shows more respect and less bullying, but either he's not paying attention or he's too weak to get the military to do what they SHOULD. Either way, it's a shame.

No, I'm not looking at it from the 50s, in most cases. I put up an article by someone working there who wrote about the openness and welcoming of the AFGHAN PEOPLE clearly, and it matches what I saw when there.

Quote:
Fix some of the other bad policys you have across the middleeast, then re-engage in a more positive way.

Absofrigginlootely, it's what I've been saying about Afghanistan, and it pertains to all the mideast, unquestionably. I doubt it will happen, however.

I know the view of us by the world has changed a lot because of the eight years of bullying by Dumbya's administration...and before that because of our arrogance in general. I continue to believe, however, that if it were gone about in a different way, AFGHANISTAN's view of us would change. SOME are glad to have us there even now, as interviews have shown, and I maintain once again that if our being there were to be done with RESPECT, it would be different. They've always wanted our help, that hasn't changed in 60 years, but they don't want what we're doing now, for the most part.

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:19 AM

Bush and the neocons have this view of the world as a big, ugly, scary place where the people are all out to get us, and besides, they're dirty and "don't speak the language". And because of that paranoia, we spend almost as much on our military and defense as the entire rest of the world combined. That's some deep-seated fear right there, to be THAT worried that everybody in the world is out to kill you.

And if they are, it really should say something about our policies, shouldn't it?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:46 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Right ON! That's the core of Cheney's attitude completely. Thank you!

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:06 PM

i think we could solve this whole dispute, if we just had REAL free trade. instead of nation building, a permanant military presence, undeclared wars, foreign aid... just trade with them! return to the days of colonial style trade, export what makes us great, our innovation and freedom of thought. if they want to trade, fine, if they dont, leave them alone! it sounds simplistic, but its probably more productive. wouldnt that be a better form of pursuasion, to open their hearts, at the grass-roots, then to constantly try and force military and political changes?

the opposition movement in Iran, just at the grass-roots, is destined to overthrow the mullahs and Ahmadinejad. the media made a big deal about this because, what are they using? blackberrys, cellphones, the internet. i know there are differences between Iran and say Afghanistan, but its the principle, isnt it? it makes more sense then sanctioning Iran, threatening Force.. something Obama is continuing to do. its just so counter-productive!

like this story..

Quote:
Hannah Devlin
London Telegraph
Tuesday, February 16th, 2010

Nato troops and their Afghan colleagues involved in Operation Moshtarak have suffered another blow after three more civilians were killed in the campaign against the Taliban.

The deaths – in three separate incidents – come after two US missiles struck a house on the outskirts of the town of Marjah on Sunday, killing 12 people, half of them children. Three others killed in the house were identified as Taliban fighters by local authorities.

rest of the story- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7248301/Ope
ration-Moshtarak-three-more-civilians-killed-in-Afghanistan.html

.. and for what? i dont think the taliban have even been involved in a terrorist attack on US civilians, have they? whatever happened to pursuing al-qaeda, the ones who attacked us? instead we just continue meddling, just as we have for the last half century.

if we declared war, voted up or down in congress, went to war with the full backing of the people, this wouldnt be happening! Iraq probably wouldnt have happened, but it would have been over a whole lot sooner! if the people were genuinely threatened with their lives and safety, we'd go in and completely lay waste to somebody!

its because we dont declare war that we have this debacle of Gitmo, torture, airport body scanners.. and these civilian terrorist trials. we've created this mess, and now we're more vulnerable for it

i think youre right Niki about the Pentagon, the military industrial complex, overpowering the president. but like Bush, Obama, in his heart of hearts, is just not willing to make a stand, and change the entire foreign policy. if that was his position, he would stand by it, career be damned. so hes a puppet, theres no other deduction from that, thats the shame of it. the rest of the differences between him and Bush are symantics, just re-arranging deck chairs.

theres obviously a bigger objective, and its not clear to us because we arent being told the truth(openly). i personally think its to create a global central bank, world currency, to bring every nation under the NWOs submission

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:17 PM

I think you and Niki are right about Obama being controlled,

but I dont think it is the military doing it...

I would point at the CFR, AIPAC, and that bunch controlling things behind the scenes. They have much more influence than the Military, and definitely have an agenda that goes against what most people feel are their interests

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:14 PM

America loves a winner!

Dick Cheney is unquestionably the best VP this nation has had in the past 40 years.

And that's a fact.

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:29 PM

STORYMARK

Did anybody else catch that? I heard a vague whisper, a nothingness really. I'll I could make out was how stupid it was....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:36 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Did anybody else catch that? I heard a vague whisper, a nothingness really. I'll I could make out was how stupid it was....

I approve of the change in tone by some here. Not exactly mature or productive, but at least it's a start.

There's hope for this place yet.

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:37 PM

STORYMARK

Ah, I figured it out. Someone farted.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:13 PM

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:16 PM

America loves a winner!

He who smelt it....

ewww.....sure does look oily.

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:43 PM

There is going to be such a celebration when Cheney's evil black heart finally gives out for good. Not by me, of course. I just hope they remember to burn the bones and salt the ground to keep the fucker from coming back.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:44 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
There is going to be such a celebration when Cheney's evil black heart finally gives out for good. Not by me, of course. I just hope they remember to burn the bones and salt the ground to keep the fucker from coming back.

You're not only anti-American, you're anti-human.

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:52 PM

http://www.isdickcheneydeadyet.com/

you are not alone

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:57 PM

America loves a winner!

"You're an interesting species, an interesting mix. You're capable of such beautiful dreams and such horrible nightmares."

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:01 PM

Back to your Hole Troll !!!!

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:02 PM

America loves a winner!

Director: Bureau of Bigfoot Affairs

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:13 PM

Ahhh, the silence, she is golden, no?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Gino, do you truly believe Cheney acted “under orders”? I tend to think Cheney, Rove, and their cronies really RAN Dumbya---maybe efficiently enough that he didn’t know they were doing it. But I don’t think Dumbya was the power in the throne, by any means, except when he was truly bent on his own agenda (Iraq?).

Agreed Niki.
Cheney was on a power trip.
Heh, still is, to a smaller degree.

Cheney made me really come to appreciate Dan Quayle.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:36 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
There is going to be such a celebration when Cheney's evil black heart finally gives out for good. Not by me, of course.

You're a better man than I.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 3:59 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree, Story--Mike, can I come along? I promise to help pour the big cauldron of goo that will keep him in the ground...

And yes, Story, I heard a vague noise in the background, but I thought it was just the wind in the trees. Strange wind for Winter, full of hot air. Then the blessed silence returned.

Ginnnnoooo, get with the program, darlin'. We agreed not to kill, just to ignore. The world needs all kinds of people, even, well, those made of nothing but hot air. Play nice, now, 'kay? ;o)

Chris, you reminded me of a bumper sticker, while Dumbya was in office: "I never thought I'd come to miss Nixon."

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 4:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
y nice, now, 'kay? ;o)

Chris, you reminded me of a bumper sticker, while Dumbya was in office: "I never thought I'd come to miss Nixon."

I miss his subtlety & grace...

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I think you and Niki are right about Obama being controlled,

but I dont think it is the military doing it...

I would point at the CFR, AIPAC, and that bunch controlling things behind the scenes. They have much more influence than the Military, and definitely have an agenda that goes against what most people feel are their interests

oh i agree with you there, CFR, Tri-laterl commission, WTO, IMF, the bilderbergs. when you string them all together in a sentence, people tend to discount you as a conspiracy kook. but never-the-less, when we check the backgrounds of these people who make up the Pentagon, or the Bush/Obama cabinets and advisors... you notice a whole lot of overlap. i simply believe the agenda is to enact sociel engineering on a global scale, by means of a world bank; and the central bankers are using America and the EU/UN to achieve it. but thats me
, im just an evil '(old)right-winger'

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:42 PM

Quote:
I agree, Story--Mike, can I come along? I promise to help pour the big cauldron of goo that will keep him in the ground...

And yes, Story, I heard a vague noise in the background, but I thought it was just the wind in the trees. Strange wind for Winter, full of hot air. Then the blessed silence returned.

Of course you can come along, Niki - the more the merrier! Not that it will be a celebration or anything. ;)

I thought that noise was just the local troll under the bridge...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Nixon was an ass, but at least he had STYLE.

I've still got a campaign button around here...
"Don't change dicks in the middle of a screw, vote for NIXON in 72!"

Seriously though, I still say we clone Eisenhower.

-F

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I think you and Niki are right about Obama being controlled,

but I dont think it is the military doing it...

I would point at the CFR, AIPAC, and that bunch controlling things behind the scenes. They have much more influence than the Military, and definitely have an agenda that goes against what most people feel are their interests

oh i agree with you there, CFR, Tri-laterl commission, WTO, IMF, the bilderbergs. when you string them all together in a sentence, people tend to discount you as a conspiracy cook.

Cook? Really? But yes, I *DO* dismiss you as a conspiracy kook. Very much so.

Oh, and you forgot the WWE. And the NAACP. And the NCAA.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, February 16, 2010 7:59 PM