Confusion on my part... by WashIsMyHero

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Confusion on my part...

POSTED BY: WASHISMYHERO
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:37
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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:36 PM

Ok, maybe I'm not as big of a browncoat as I thought

...I'm very confused on the whole "Blue Sun" and the guys with blue hands. What is the deal with these two things? I'm very confused because it's never discussed or explained in Firefly or Serenity (unless I missed it somewhere). Could someone, anyone, explain to me exactly what (or who) Blue Sun is and anything about the guys with blue hands?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

Thank you, Joss, for building a show that promotes a family atmosphere. Keep flyin'.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:48 PM

BFE

I'm not as deeply versed in the, um, 'verse as many on here, but I can give insight from what I have read.

The Blue Sun Corporation was going to be a bigger part of the story arc in Firefly before it was cut short. It is the equivalent of Wal-Mart, IBM, RJR Nabisco, and GM all rolled into one. It's a huge umbrella corporation who's tentacles stretch almost everywhere.

The implication in Firefly was that Blue Sun was ultimately behind the experiments done on River. The Blue Hands were the agents of Blue Sun who operated outside and above the law - with the tacit approval of the Alliance(which would benefit from their activities.)

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:51 PM

WASHISMYHERO

Hey, thanks so much for your help BFE. It kind of clears up a bit of the haze that I was trying to fly through while watching the episodes for the upteenth millionth time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

Thank you, Joss, for building a show that promotes a family atmosphere. Keep flyin'.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 3:08 PM

DONCOAT

Actually, there was never any evidence that the Blue Hands guys had any connection to Blue Sun, except for the color blue.

Indeed, if you read the comics, you'll find some strong evidence that there was no such connection.

Blue Sun, however, is often described by Joss as a sort of megacorporation that's at least as powerful as the Alliance government. Joss calls it "Coca Cola plus Microsoft".

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I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 3:40 PM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Actually, there was never any evidence that the Blue Hands guys had any connection to Blue Sun, except for the color blue.

Something's been bugging me recently about River's "Two by two, hands of blue" rant. Two by two equals four. But, there were two guys, not four guys.

Now, I know River wasn't quite all there, but she was supposedly pretty good at math? Duh.

Was Joss smokin' some of that California grass, or am I missing something here?

"Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing."

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:14 PM

AMANDAJ

I tend to think that "two by two" isn't math... in fact, I don't think many people use the word "by" for multiplication, in general.

Isn't it a reference more akin to Noah's Arc or something like that? Like Noah marching the animals two by two up into the arc?

It would gloss semantically into "they always come in pairs".

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:14 PM

AMANDAJ

*double post*

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:27 PM

GARBAGECANMUSIC

4 blue hands.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:33 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Something's been bugging me recently about River's "Two by two, hands of blue" rant. Two by two equals four. But, there were two guys, not four guys.

Now, I know River wasn't quite all there, but she was supposedly pretty good at math? Duh.

Two TIMES two equals 4, yes; two BY two does not (at least not necessarily).

2x2, I think, refers to the Blue Hands that always seem to come for her in two.

I thought, in the beginning, that two BY two referred to dimension perhaps (like that of the room in the River Tam sessions, for instance).

But who knows? At any rate, it's not a rant, btw, but one of River's most endearing words; like pretty much everything else she says. :)

You just gotta Love our little crazy person, don't ya? :) Yep, cute as a button (and she sure as heck pushes a few of mine).

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:35 PM

THEPISTONENGINE

Two men, two hands a peice. Two by two. So it's slightly more meaninful than just "four hands."

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Actually, there was never any evidence that the Blue Hands guys had any connection to Blue Sun, except for the color blue.

Something's been bugging me recently about River's "Two by two, hands of blue" rant. Two by two equals four. But, there were two guys, not four guys.

Now, I know River wasn't quite all there, but she was supposedly pretty good at math? Duh.

Was Joss smokin' some of that California grass, or am I missing something here?

"Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing."

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:07 AM

WASHISMYHERO

Where can I find these River Tam Sessions that everyone is talking about? Maybe that might help clear up anything else I'm confused about and don't know that I'm confused...

Thanks to everyone's musings on the subject of Blue Sun and the guys with blue hands!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

Thank you, Joss, for building a show that promotes a family atmosphere. Keep flyin'.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:49 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by WashIsMyHero:

Where can I find these River Tam Sessions that everyone is talking about? Maybe that might help clear up anything else I'm confused about and don't know that I'm confused... Thanks to everyone's musings on the subject of Blue Sun and the guys with blue hands!

Here ya go:

http://ia300828.eu.archive.org/2/items/R._Tam_Sessions_Complete_4/R_Ta
m_Sessions_Full.mov

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 3:28 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AmandaJ:

*double post*

He, your posts, like the hands of blue, come in two. :) Weee!

Sorry, I'm in a very River Tam mood today (am I ever not? you wonder; lol). Oh, and I'm giddy. Something a good deal more dangerous. :) You guys just had to bring up the 2 x 2 thingy, didn't ya!? Now my mind is stuck on River again (hmm, I say it like it's a bad thing; arrgh).

LONG LIVE RIVER TAM!

Stuck, stuck, stuck on River! :) And then some! Ok, so this is what going insane must feel like! :)

Come away, O River Tam!
To the land of dreams, where I now am.
Hand in hand, 2 x 2,
We'll take care of each other; I'll knit for you.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:08 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Actually, there was never any evidence that the Blue Hands guys had any connection to Blue Sun, except for the color blue.

Indeed, if you read the comics, you'll find some strong evidence that there was no such connection.

Actually, upon reflection, that ain't necessarily so.

Spoilers for comic:

Select to view spoiler:

The person who hired the Operative (and would logically be Alliance, or even Alliance Parliament). Referred to the Bluehands as "private contractors."

This could suggest that they were merely bounty hunters (and seems to be widely interpreted as such), but it doesn't flatly deny the Blue Sun connection.

Think on it: Dr. Matthias' operation was pretty clearly Parliament-condoned.

If Blue Sun isn't actually running the show (or is so far behind the scenes that even the Operative wouldn't know), they could easily do "contract" work for the highest levels. So, Microsoft, Coca-Cola, and Wackenhut.

(FYI, Wackenhut were the private company that handled security for Area 51. They have since lost the contract, due to being profoundly stupid [losing track of guns, leaving loaded weapons in their cars overnight, shifting peoples' work schedules around without telling anyone, failing to keep up with their own background checks, etc], but the idea still stands: a private company handled security for a government installation.)

Ergo, the Bluehands are only contracted bounty hunters, but they're employees of (and equipped by) Blue Sun, who have their own agenda, unrelated to the Parliament's orders.

They don't want to contain River (though they've manipulated events to get themselves that job), they want to capture her and exploit her.

That's why they killed those cops; they were guarding against industrial espionage.

Heck, they might even have ties to the "underground" group that broke her out in the first place (who somehow knew the safeword, and were prepared to get her under control, but out of Alliance hands).

Also, look at the Miranda conspiracy: the Pax was added to the terraformer systems. Where did the terraformers come from? Contrary to popular conspiracy theory, the Government does not produce equipment (Simon Says: Important people don't do fieldwork). The Government hires people to produce equipment. People like huge corporations. People like Blue Sun.

It's clear that River has many more secrets in her head (Miranda was just the biggest and most immediate). Maybe one of them leads back to Blue Sun.

Maybe one of those "key members of Parliament" is actually in the pocket of (or even sits on) Blue Sun's board of directors. Maybe it was his secret the Bluehands were protecting, not Miranda.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:42 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

Ergo, the Bluehands are only contracted bounty hunters, but they're employees of (and equipped by) Blue Sun, who have their own agenda, unrelated to the Parliament's orders.

More on the Blue Hands.

I believe the Blue Hands must almost certainly be connected to The Academy (and not just as bounty hunters). River, namely, is very familiar with them. In Shindig, River says:

"A million things, and the hands go everywhere and when you brush your teeth all the little blue things are there but no one says it because, because sometimes they're afraid. And then they come. The hands go everywhere. Two by two, hands of blue."

It is unlikely River is hunted by them at the Academy (at least not in a bounty hunter sense). More likely is, that they are standard personnel at the Academy, transporting her (and the other subjects) to and from where they want her to be (from her room to medical facilities, etc). At least, they seem very much around her AT the Academy. That leaves not much room for a bounty hunter role, I think.

Also, the Blue Hands are clearly Blue Sun types. Or almost certainly so. Because when River freaked out, and said the above thing, she was triggered seeing the Blue Sun logo on the food cans.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:40 AM

NOSADSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by WashIsMyHero:

Where can I find these River Tam Sessions that everyone is talking about? Maybe that might help clear up anything else I'm confused about and don't know that I'm confused... Thanks to everyone's musings on the subject of Blue Sun and the guys with blue hands!

Here ya go:

http://...{snipped}.../R_Tam_Sessions_Full.mov

If you're interested in more information on the R. Tam Sessions, I recommend going to http://www.session416.com , and clicking on the 'background file' link. (You can also hunt for a hidden link to the original index.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:49 AM

ITSBROKEN

Like the ants marching one by one, it doesnt mean one times one. Two by two means that the bluehand guys come in pairs, never one by himself and never in threes or fours, always two. like in the context of the ants....

"those guys go marching two by two hurrah, hurrah, those guys go marching two by two hurrah, hurrah, those guys go marching two by two...the little one stops to take a poo?"

they are marching side by side in twos.

-----
***someone should make a MMORPG based on the 'verse!***

Geeze i want Firefly to come back!

-----

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:37 PM

RHYIANAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

It's clear that River has many more secrets in her head (Miranda was just the biggest and most immediate). Maybe one of them leads back to Blue Sun.

I tend to agree with this, River freaked out every time there was something with the blue sun logo around(food, jayne's shirt, ect.). It was very subtle, but I'm sure eventually we'd find out what was going on if the show had continued (or if by some miracle it gets picked up again...or in a BDS...or something).

I'm not sure about the hands of blue though...they might be connected to blue sun, they might not. Since I haven't read the comics, I can't argue about them intelligently.

Wash: Yeah, but psychic? That sounds like science fiction.
Zoe: You live on a spaceship, dear.

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