Does Joss use too many jokes? by WarpedBeauty

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Does Joss use too many jokes?

POSTED BY: WARPEDBEAUTY
UPDATED: Thursday, February 16, 2006 20:30
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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:15 PM

First of all, firefly and serenity are the most beautiful motion picture productions I've ever seen. After seeing them, I can't express the depth of my admiration for Joss Whedon and what he tries to achieve in his work.

Question for all firefly/whedon fans:

Joss Whedon uses alot of comic relief in all his shows, often by making a light quip in a serious moment. I have seen this noted before in articles etc. as being "startling" and "surprising", but I've never seen anyone discuss whether it's actually a good thing.

I would like to see less of these jokes myself. While I think they are usually quite funny, I think they do spoil the moment a bit. It feels as if Joss Whedon is being self-degrading, as if to say "Hey, I know this is all real melodramatic, but I don't take myself too seriously." The way Joss discusses his work in interviews reflects the same attitude: he almost looks as if he's reluctant to show his passions because he lacks conviction in the depth of their meaning to other people.

I don't hold to that, as Mal would say, because the themes in his work, especially firefly/serenity, are very very touching to me, and they deserve to be taken seriously and displayed proudly for the world to see. Without too many points of comic relief that say "oh, we don't _really_ care about the themes, it's just an action/comedy movie".

Of course, I could be full of kuso in all this. That's why I want to know what everyone else thinks :)

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

For me, Joss uses just enough wit and jokes to make things seem that much more REAL. And it keeps very heavy moments from getting TOO heavy, and snaps you out of them before things get maudlin or too dark.

Case in point: In the final season of Buffy, Nathan Fillion plays a VERY bad preacher (Caleb). He's quick with a disturbing joke, which is both sickly funny AND kind of keeps the whole show from getting too dark and creepy. For instance, when he snaps a seer's neck as she's warning Buffy of what's to come, he does it mid-sentence, then quips, "What was that last part? I couldn't hear it on account of her neck snappin' and all." Sick, twisted, and FUNNY.

Maybe that's what makes Joss's work resonate with me so much. I have a sardonic, twisted sense of humor, and I tend to go for the jokes when things look their worst. For some, humor's a kind of escape from fear or danger...

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:43 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Considering the humor thing. A lot of people don't necesarily get this but Joss doesn't write comedy. He writes deadly serious dramas about people who just happen to be total smartasses. Sure it comes across as comedy but it's much, much deeper.

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:45 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Welcome, WarpedBeauty,

*hands a browncoat to WarpedBeauty* I'm the supply clerk, and we're happy to have you here.

I think Joss has just the right mix of humor and tension. I am a new fan of Joss, having not watched Buffy or Angel. Firefly was my first experience with Joss' work. He's got genius timing and he knows just how to draw you in with the terror and the worry and then help you laugh it off with the funny. I had read for years that Buffy had superb dialogue and that the writing was top notch. I never gave it a chance... but when I saw Firefly I realized that Joss has a gift. He truly taps into that need we have for good story telling.

" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 6:46 PM

KWICKO

Yup-yup. I'm reminded of a quote, from whom I can't remember:

"This life is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel."

Me, I prefer to think of life as a comedy. After all, if I can't laugh, I just might start screaming.

[Doink. Edit time. Found the quote. Horace Walpole (1717-1797):

“The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.”

Man, Joss was right. This Google-y thing really CAN find stuff!]

M

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:43 PM

GORBISHUN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yup-yup. I'm reminded of a quote, from whom I can't remember:

"This life is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel."

Me, I prefer to think of life as a comedy. After all, if I can't laugh, I just might start screaming.

I totally agree with you, my favorite entertainment is comedy. I have nothing against drama/tragedy/whatever, I just like to laugh. If anything, I like humor even more when it's mixed in with drama. Plus, pretty much all drama or tragedy has, at the very least, trace amounts of humor.

I guess it also depends on what you find, or are capable of finding, funny; because I like to laugh I tend to find a lot of things to be funny.

For me the show and movie have the perfect amount of jokes and humor, but that doesn't mean that your wrong about Joss's attitude toward his own work.

«°-:-°»
Also... I can kill you with my brain.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:13 PM

WHITEFALL

I think all of joss's shows are so good at what they do because they put the humor in the right places. Imho, aside from the occassional ironic/witty remark during a dramatic sequence (like the train/trash jobs) joss tends to play jokes for what they are: jokes. In a relaxed setting, people make jokes, and he and his writer minions just make those jokes better sounding than you or I could come up with on the spot. Realistic? not quite, but moreso than if they werent there.

And another thing, I loved how firefly has its downtime, where nothing totally important is happening, and buffy and angel often have that too... and in such times, witty banter is exchanged, remarks are made, smiles are smiled, and life is lived. Once you have life, the contrast of immenant peril or death is all the more dramatic.

I survived a day in Whitefall and all I got was this lousy signature!

Terrifying Space Monkey of Destiny

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:30 AM

WARPEDBEAUTY

Hey, lots of responses real quick :D

Thanks for the browncoat, I am indeed new to this universe. I discovered Serenity at a video hire shop 1 week ago.

Sad that noone agrees with me though. I conclude two things from this:

1. Point of interest, to say that I dislike all comedies is a gross generalisation that happens to be true. I have never, ever liked comedy tv/movies. I guess that makes me abnormally humourless.

2. I think I like real life less than most people, I find it kind of flat. I don't complain at all when TV/movies skip real fast away from that. Hey, that's why I like SF/fantasy, isn't it? I love to see people in situations which possess an intensity that real life never does.

Thanks for your thoughts :)

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 2:33 AM

NUCLEARDAY

Since I was wee one growing up with Star Wars, one thing I've always linked with a good sci-fi show/movie was a decent bit of comedic relief and some witty banter. Also why later in life I got hooked on the old black and white film noir type stuff. (Back before 'special effects' you actually had to write good dialogue to carry the plot :)

Anyways, I've always appreciated good dialogue in shows. As far as the humor part, I hate to do yet another post that disagrees with you, but that's one of the things that got me hooked here. ;p Actually, it's what got me to rent the movie, cause I remembered the commercials and thought it looked like a decent space romp at worst. (Course it was so much, much, more than that :)

Having a good blend of comedy and drama is kind of a thin tight-rope to walk. Too much drama just leaves you drained by the end of the movie. You often need that comedic relief to contrast the deeper sequences.

I know I've heard movie experiences (and probably applies to TV to some extent) as being compared to a rollercoaster ride. You have to have your ups to stress the importance of the downs. There are times watching both the series and especially the movie where I want to both laugh and cry at the same time.

Basically, if it was always dark, the really dramatic moments wouldn't sell the audience as much. You'd be lacking the contrast. Two best examples I can think of off the top of my head here are War Stories and the Message.

War Stories has that torture sequence with Mal using the banter to keep Wash from breaking. Starts out rather funny until you start to catch some of the tension creeping in. Also with the Message, what I'm thinking of is the scene at the dining table with Mal and Zoe reminiscing about Tracy. They're joking and then at the end, there's that moment where Mal almost breaks down a bit. Small moment there, but it really sells it I always thought.

_______________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:24 AM

MAL4PREZ

Hi WarpedBeauty!

I can see your point, about Joss making fun of himself, and how that could be a drawback. It's kind of in his history though.

Part of what got me into Buffy was the many layers of it - great characters and interesting stories, and at the same time Joss poked fun at all the usual 'coming of age' storylines that have been done SO many times. And he made fun of himself, which was really necessary for me. I mean a heavy drama about high school vampires? Come on! But as soon as he ridiculed himself, it kind of gave me permission to take the dramatic parts seriously without feeling stupid about it. And then he came up with episodes like The Body. Holy cow, best dramatic hour of TV ever!

Firefly makes fun of itself less than Buffy, (FF doesn't need to, it's more believable) but Joss still has the ability to put so many different emotions on screen, it's astounding.

I agree with whoever said it's about smart-ass characters in dramatic situations. So true! Part of why I like Mal so much is that he survives hard times by keeping his sense of humor. Some of my favorite people in real life have this ability, and the more I can manage it myself the more I enjoy life.

Maybe it just takes some time to get used the funny/dark combination??

m4p

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:39 AM

BARCLAY

Joss has only ever made one joke I didn't appreciate. At the end of Serenity, you're going through this emotional roller coaster, the film has left you with a lasting impression, Serenity is sailing off into the black... you're feeling it, you want to savor this moment, then... "What was that?" Completely takes that away. You're not feeling it anymore. It's a joke that has the function of "Ok, we're done, back to the real world" instead of my preferred "Now you go take this into the lobby and have a nice little discussion." I stop Serenity on DVD prior to this quote for this very reason.

"You are on the Global Frequency."
http://www.frequencysite.com
http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:36 AM

CYBERSNARK

I think Joss' use of comedy is just about perfect. Like others have said, it's a tightrope, and Joss does it better than most.

It's something I try to emulate in my own writing; straight comedy is hard. Almost impossible for me, I just don't think in "sitcom" mode. That said, give me something serious, and the funny just tends to happen on its own.

Let's face it, real life is funny, and funny things tend to happen in even the darkest hours. Anyone who says funny things don't happen to them is lying.

Over on Shortpacked ( http://www.shortpacked.com/), Walky once noted that humour is inversely related to the intelligence of the subject. IOW, the smarter someone is, the funnier they tend to make things.

(Like Batman. Batman makes anything funny.)

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:37 AM

GIXXER

No.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 6:43 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Part of what got me into Buffy was the many layers of it - great characters and interesting stories, and at the same time Joss poked fun at all the usual 'coming of age' storylines that have been done SO many times. And he made fun of himself, which was really necessary for me. I mean a heavy drama about high school vampires? Come on! But as soon as he ridiculed himself, it kind of gave me permission to take the dramatic parts seriously without feeling stupid about it. And then he came up with episodes like The Body. Holy cow, best dramatic hour of TV ever!

Bingo. You said perfectly what I've been unable to put into words for SOOOOO long. I remember when Buffy came out. I thought (and said), "What a stupid idea for a show." I'd seen the movie, and while it was... okay... I sure as hell didn't see how it merited a series. I figured the series would be just more camp-n-kitsch, with a few lame one-liners thrown into an otherwise dark story.

So when I actually WATCHED Buffy The Series (last summer), imagine my shock. Here was a show that had fun with dark storylines, had great dramatic tension, and still managed to mock both the teen-angsty dramas AND the whole vampire-monster-demon-mythos genre. What hooked me was the wit and the jokes, even in the face of grave (pardon the pun) danger. There are moments that will bring a tear, but there are many more moments that will bring a laugh. And sometimes, just when you're about to cry, you get a joke tossed in that makes everything okay. Hard not to like a show that can do that to ya...

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:02 AM

CITIZEN

Theres no such thing as too much humour, remember what happens if you take life too seriously...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:03 AM

MALNOURISHED

Quote:
Originally posted by Barclay:
Joss has only ever made one joke I didn't appreciate. At the end of Serenity, you're going through this emotional roller coaster, the film has left you with a lasting impression, Serenity is sailing off into the black... you're feeling it, you want to savor this moment, then... "What was that?" Completely takes that away. You're not feeling it anymore. It's a joke that has the function of "Ok, we're done, back to the real world" instead of my preferred "Now you go take this into the lobby and have a nice little discussion." I stop Serenity on DVD prior to this quote for this very reason.

I can see your point. I hadn't seen the series before watching Serenity for the first time, so I didn't think the joke was too much. After getting to know the characters, I began to feel that the joke takes away from the beautifully poignant exchange between Mal and River at the end. This is when you really feel a connection between those characters, and it becomes clear that both of them have changed fundamentally over the course of the movie. On the other hand, I can see the joke in another way; Serenity is flying into the black with bits falling off her, but the crew loves her and she is the one place where they feel at home. So, I guess with that mindset, the joke reminds me just how connected they (crew+ship) all are--they care for each other in spite of their imperfections.

In general, I think that Joss' jokes are right on. It was the humor that drew me in to begin with, and the relationships that made me a real fan.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:12 AM

MAL4PREZ

Thanks Kwicko - I actually had this discussion with a fairly serious and down to earth friend of mine way back when Buffy season 3 was on the air. We discovered we were both fans (and a little afraid to admit it at the time - LOL!!) and we had to justify ourselves.

um, cybersnark - I don't get the Batman reference. Are you saying Batman's really smart? I hope you don't mean the movie with Ah-nold as iceman, because... wow, ouch!

m4p

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 8:20 AM

GIXXER

"...Theres no such thing as too much humour, remember what happens if you take life too seriously..."

Star Wars Prequels happens.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 8:52 AM

ASARIAN

I Love FireFly primarily because of River. But let's say she weren't in it (*shudder*), then I would certainly love the show for its humor. It's a veritable source of endless jokes, witticism, and puns. And I keep finding myself quoting from it, in speech and writing, all the time; starting with the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a 90 pound girl, cuz I don't think that's ever getting old. :)

Too many jokes? Now THAT is funny!

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 11:04 AM

RHYIANAN

I'm not completely sure, but I think that I read somewhere that Joss is a Shakespeare fan. Shakespeare's plays are filled with just the sort of jokes you are objecting to. The dark stuff that just happened is belied by witty banter. The only difference with Shakespeare is that the witty comments are usually made by people that have no idea what just happened. If Joss really is a shakespeare fan, than it makes sense that he would use a similar device in his own writting.

I must say though, that the humor is part of what drew me in. I usually hate American humor, but all of Joss's shows that I have seen are interspersed with just the right blend of witty one-liners and drama.

Wash: Yeah, but psychic? That sounds like science fiction.
Zoe: You live on a spaceship, dear.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 11:10 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
um, cybersnark - I don't get the Batman reference. Are you saying Batman's really smart? I hope you don't mean the movie with Ah-nold as iceman, because... wow, ouch!

Actually, it's an ongoing gag on that strip I pointed to: Walky (the artist/writer) is a huge Batman: TAS fan.

Of course, TAS gives us the hyper-competent ubermensch supergenius with no sense of humour. Imagine that Batman in. . . just about any context:

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20050311.html
http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20050620.html
http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20051230.html
http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20060127.html
http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20060130.html

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20050610.html
(My personal favourite.)

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 11:18 AM

MAL4PREZ

shame on me for not checking the reference.

Batman and gardening...

*wiping tears from eyes*

...OK, I get it now.

Ask Dr. Science ... he knows more than you do.
"I have a Master's degree ... in science!"

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:53 PM

OLDMANSPLITFOOT

The only time during Firefly or Serenity where I found the humor out of place was in Objects in Space. I didn't want Jubel Early to be funny, not after he threatened to rape Kaylee. I wanted to hate him completely and utterly, not laugh at him. Turns out Joss made me do both.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 1:23 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by OldManSplitfoot:
The only time during Firefly or Serenity where I found the humor out of place was in Objects in Space. I didn't want Jubel Early to be funny, not after he threatened to rape Kaylee. I wanted to hate him completely and utterly, not laugh at him. Turns out Joss made me do both.

Definitely. I wanted to keep hating Early SOOOOO much after what he said to our little Kaylee. But then you ended up kinda LIKING the guy, or at least feeling a little sorry for him. Such is the power of Joss's writing.

[SPOILER ALERT] If you haven't seen Buffy and don't want anything ruined, stop reading right now!

Also, he did it (more than once) in Buffy, too. When Angelus killed Miss Calendar, I cringed. I gasped. So did my wife. She actually screamed "NO!" We both said that we could never like or trust Angel again, no matter what. Of course, we were both wrong...

It's a rare writing crew and acting cast that can do that to you so regularly, and so bloody well. At various times, Whedon & Company have had me hating one character, loving another, and then they flip things around. And it's all done with an almost magical blend of drama, tension, wit, and humor.

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 6:00 PM

JPSTARGAZER

The only time I thought a joke was out of place was at the end of Ariel when Jayne finally has his moment where he asks Mal not to tell the crew what he did. That was huge step for Jayne, and when Mal closes the outer door to the airlock and walks away, you see Jayne finally realize everyone's part of the crew and then BOOM, he says something trying to be humorous. I know, you're going to say "Well Jayne's defense mechanism for that sort of thing is humor, it's just his character." Well that's true but that moment was the only time I wanted him to shut up and think. That part just feels wrong to me.

Other than that, I think Jayne has some of the funniest lines in the show.

"All I got is a red guitar, three chords, and the truth...the rest is up to you"
--Bono

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 6:15 PM

PARKER6097

I don't think his shows would be the same without the comedy, he creates the perfect mix of drama and comedy, it's his style and it's one of the things I love about him :)

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 6:24 PM

SEESKYANDREMEMBER

Quote:
Originally posted by Barclay:
Joss has only ever made one joke I didn't appreciate. At the end of Serenity, you're going through this emotional roller coaster, the film has left you with a lasting impression, Serenity is sailing off into the black... you're feeling it, you want to savor this moment, then... "What was that?" Completely takes that away. You're not feeling it anymore. It's a joke that has the function of "Ok, we're done, back to the real world" instead of my preferred "Now you go take this into the lobby and have a nice little discussion." I stop Serenity on DVD prior to this quote for this very reason.

While I see your point, this quote gave me an entirely different feeling. A friend of mine introduced me to Firefly late last fall. I watched the whole series in one sitting (an 11h 31m sitting, lol) and I simply fell in love. When I finally got to see Serenity (by this time it was out of most theaters. I had to drive 2 hours to the nearest theater that was still showing it) I loved it just as much as I had loved the series. The final joke at the end gave me a hope that there could be more to come; that this wasn't necessarily the end.

To be completly taken away would be nice...but maybe a bit too final, a bit too "and they lived happily ever after". The "What was that?" at the end reminded me that the crew of Serenity was still flyin'...

Dunno. Maybe it's just me.

________________________________________
It'll still be there...waiting.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 8:30 PM

KITCH

As a HUGE Buffy/Angel fan I would have to say, that is his gift. To actually have an almost constant state of angst/hilarity and sell it, time and time again in all of his shows is amazing. Having said that, Firefly is still my favorite, because it is so unique and special. But it REEKS of Joss... and that rules.

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