Is Firefly suitable for children? by chronicthehedgehog

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Is Firefly suitable for children?

POSTED BY: CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 19:12
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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 3:11 AM

Is Firefly suitable for children? This comes from another thread, but am reposting as I didn't want to post hijack.

Quote:
Originally posted by Darkfly:
Prostitution,lesbianism,violence,sexual refrences, torture,swearing,swearing in chinese,sex scenes,ect.
If that's suitable for anybody under 11 then GOD help us all,this is why people are getting dumber, there allowed to see,watch,& hear things they should not be allowed to till they can completely understand.Look at the stats stealing,prostition, teenage pregenancies,murdering,worser grades in school,unemployment,ect. all these thing's are geeting higher every year,if you want the main culprit it's the parents(not completely)I was brought up with manner's,wasn't allowed to buy or watch anything I wanted,I was never allowed to watch an 18 till I was 15 & that was Terminator & even then my Dad wouldn't let me see the nude scene.And no I'm not 50 I'm actually between the age 16-23 but your never find out.

I think prostitution would go completely over a child's head. They wouldn't understand what Inara's profession was and if asked it's easily explanable as people pay to spend time with her.

What's wrong with letting a child see lesbians? I would think it was good to let them know that there's nothing wrong with it.

As for violence, as a child I saw Star Wars, I saw Indiana Jones both of which are fantastic family movies. However, they deal with violence and death all the time. I watched Han Solo kill a man in cold blood, I saw Obi Wan cut off a guy's hand, I watched a man's face melt in Indiana Jones. I've never seen anything that bad in Firefly.

Sexual references. Would almost certainly go over a child's head, but I notice on your profile that you watched Red Dwarf at 4 which contained numerous sexual references. Did that do you any harm?

Torture. I think that, for the most part, the torture wouldn't be a problem. They'd just see it as the bad man hurting Mal which just emphasises how bad he is. Now cutting his ear off is probably the worst thing there, but again I don't see it as being as bad as Obi-Wan cutting that guy's hand off.

I can't think of any swearing in the show. And how does swearing in chinese hurt kids? They don't understand it and if they did the translations aren't direct swear words.

Sex scenes. Possibly the only thing that would put me off showing it to a kid. Though I think if I had been watching this as a child my mum would have just covered my eyes for that bit.

-------------------------------------------------

I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 3:18 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

There have been several discussions on this. It of course depends on the maturity of the child, but I don't agree with Darkfly that it would make them dumb. Or make them have "worser grades"

I think it's fine, and I agree with you, particularly that there's nothing wrong with two girls kissing. Several members of this board have started their children young. They don't show them War Stories or Heart of Gold, I think, but that's about it.

An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind. - Gautama Siddharta

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 3:55 AM

JAMAICANBATMAN

why shouldn't it be suitable, when kids can just turn the news on and hear 'bout terrorists tryin to blow up a bunch of planes last week. Surely that'd be unsuitable for them, but that was broadcast 24/7.

Oh and Chronic, i like the signature.

-------------------------------------------

we are ka-tet, one from many

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:39 AM

MRSU

No.
My opinion - it's OK for teenagers, but not for children younger than 11-12.
It's violent, dark, mature show. Most of the themes would go over kids' heads anyway.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:50 AM

STILLSHINY

I say keep it for the teens.

As for what "moral" stand to take with what's being seen, well, I think that's the parents responsibility.

When we had an Korean exchange student stay with us, she was 17, we let her watch it.

When she had friends over we knew whose parents would approve & who wouldn't and acted accordingly.

Interestingly, we had a friend over last week & her 5 yr old was in the room while Tru Calling was on. She had no idea what was happening on the screen, she just knew the music was loud & tense, so she went running down the hall not wanting to see the "scary part"

"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion

Stillshiny's Shop - Original creator of the -isms series

http://www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=4728

http://www.myspace.com/robdhiii

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:50 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
It of course depends on the maturity of the child, but I don't agree with Darkfly that it would make them dumb.

I'd go so far as to argue the opposite.

I've noticed two different approaches to "children's entertainment." One approach argues that children should be protected. Programming for children should be "safe" and "easy," with nothing potentially objectionable. No violence, brutality, course language, sexuality (as distinct from "sex" itself, I'm talking about things like romance, flirtation, the occasional kiss [or the even more romantic almost-kiss]), and most definitely no justification for Evil.

"Educational" content is restricted to self-affirming lessons (the importance of teamwork, believing in yourself, being nice to people, etc) or academic subjects (math, geometry, ancient history, etc). It should talk down to kids, so as not to exclude anyone.

Look at most kids' TV. Pokémon, Monster Warriors, even Kim Possible, which I actually like. There's nothing offensive there, nothing that could make parents' groups take notice, or risk the child learning something they shouldn't. Of course, there's also nothing there to make kids think. This kind of programming is like junk food for young brains --safe for parents to use the TV as a babysitter, raising another generation of Fox viewers.

The other approach is to deal with children as if they were adults. Treat the dark parts of the story as educational content, with explanations for (and consequences to) the violence, positive portrayal of romance/sexuality, and exploration of the villains' rationales.

I'd hold up Gargoyles as the perfect example of a children's series. Yeah, it was dark, violent, brooding, and philosophical, but it treated its audience intelligently. It didn't shy away from violence (in fact, some characters [including the heroes] actively relied on it as a problem-solving solution), but included the consequences of it. Characters didn't just become a 'ship and stall out, but evolved deep relationships --which carried their own consequences (Fox/Xanatos, Fox' pregnancy and estrangement from her father, Alex' birth, Xanatos' reevaluation of his priorities, Renard's acceptance of his grandson. . .). Bad Guys weren't just moustache-twirling archetypes, but had motivations and justifications, and had to work to redeem themselves (instead of just turning Good), sometimes unsuccessfully.

I'd wager that everyone who watched Gargoyles (or similarly "unsafe" shows) learned something. Maybe not something to help their grades in school, but something important. It made kids think, made them question, and made them want to learn. Maybe parts of it were over the heads of the kids who watched it, but it made them want to raise themselves up to a level where they could understand. It encourages thinking and critical analysis, raising a generation of intelligent, discerning viewers, not unlike ourselves.

"Ultimately, stories come from violence, they come from sex. They come from death. They come from the dark places that everybody has to go to. . . If you raise a kid to think everything is sunshine and flowers, they’re going to get into the real world and die. . . That’s the reason fairy tales are so creepy, because we need to encapsulate these things, to inoculate ourselves against them, so that when we’re confronted by the genuine horror that is day-to-day life we don’t go insane." --Joss Whedon

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:51 AM

RUGBUG

If I had kids, I wouldn't let them watch it until they were teenagers. There is a lot of mature content that I don't think is suitable for the young'uns.

Cybersnark: I would hope that I would be teaching my child that life wasn't all sunshine and flowers, not a T.V. show. Using life for those lessons, not letting them artificially occur. As a parent, I would want to teach that decisions have consequences, that there isn't always a best choice, that doing right can be difficult. That's my responsiblity, not the T.V's.

***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:51 AM

CYBERSNARK

Same-time post!

*wishes*

EDIT: and again!!

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:54 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Very, very well-put, Cybersnark!

Even fairy tales were once dark and savage...

An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind. - Gautama Siddharta

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:20 AM

DARKFLY

Hey chronicthehedgehog I see you've made a post out of my reply in another post.First of all chinese swearing,I was adding to the list of things Firefly has in it,it was just for fun,there are some real swear words but hardly strong actually their mildish again I was just adding it to the list to make a point on things in Firefly.I never directly said this stuff make's the this generation dumb & what I orginally intended was to say this contribute's(only slightly) to a child becoming I don't know what the word for it is it's not exactly dumb but let's put it this way it's not exactly helping them become decent(not quite the right word).I mean a lot of the thing's in Firefly are suitable for a young kid but you've got remember why their are ratings,ect,for instance an 18 or in the US a R rated movie usaully contains strong viloence,nudity,or coarse language,ect. so that's why a kid should not watch a R rated movie till their old enough for it to be suitable.Now their are also ratings for less rude movies like a PG or a 12(PG-13 in the US)but what separates a PG from a PG-13,for instance a PG has virtually 0 things which will offend or no sex scenes & only mild swearing,now what does Firefly have,it has sex scenes, mild swearing,& torture those are the main things which make it not suitable for a younger kid,yes they may not even notice it but it still doesn't mean it make's it fine for young kids to watch.Oh and by the way I live in England and Firefly's rated a 12(PG-13 equivalent) & the Republic Of Ireland rates it a 15(only suitable for 15 year olds or over)now I disagree with the ROI giving it a 15 but it is worth a 12.I'm watching Firefly with my family now actually I just watched Jaynestown & Out Of Gas,now my brother is 13,sister is 20,& my Mum is 44.My Mum doesn't like anything even slightly immoral but she like's Firefly(sort of) but she was put off in the pilot Serenity cause their was a sex scene were the purple bellie reached an org*sm,but decided to watch a few more & now she enjoy's it but still doesn't like whenever their's a sex scene.My brother understands everything & is a Firefly fan but not quite a Browncoat...yet.My sister is similar to my Mum but she like's it.My Dad on the other hand doesn't like sci-fi that much so he isn't watching it but I did manage to drag my whole family to watch Serenity at the cinema on holiday last year.So I don't want to cause anger or try & tell everybody what is all I am doing is sharing my thoughts on the subject,my view if you will.

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Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:29 AM

LOSTDOG

That is really hard to say. I recently have watched the pilot with my little brother,he is seven years old and he did not really pay attention. If he says it is scary, I will usually turn it up. Just kidding, I will change the channel if he is frightened. Kids are pretty smart though, as we all know. But I watch shows with him that he likes, Like Naruto and one piece, and they can be violent also. Naruto has actually gotten pretty good. Then you have the adult swim which is genius, and I am sure he tells his mom he is going to bed and secretly stays up to watch. Back to the question. I think it is really for the individuals parent to decide, I mean, they know their kids better than anybody.
Now, if I had to give a one sentence answer, I would say no. Of course, with few exceptions. I realize that was more than one sentence.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:35 AM

DARKFLY

It is up to the parents & I'm fine with that,as I said it is only my view everybody has their own views people are bound to disagree or agree but just remember were all Browncoats we don't need to fight leave that for FOX,we shouldn't take this to far or get to wound up about it.

Oh and all you leftie's(Left hander's)happy Left Handed Day.It's Left Handed Day today,I myself am one my brother also.At least when your writing on a computer you don't smudge the writing.

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Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:43 AM

LOSTDOG

I don't see any fighting. I just see people responding with their own opinions. Like, you said, we are all browncoats. So give each browncoat their chance to respond. Whether it makes sense or not. PEACE!!!

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:51 AM

DARKFLY

Well I just meant...um I don't know maybe were taking it to seriously that's all.

Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:10 AM

KANEMAN

Hey Chronic saw your post on the other thread about this. I posted that most six year old children have seen Star Wars. They understand that the death in SCI-FI movies is fake. The problem with FF is the characters seem more "real". In my experience( Watching with a 10yr old )the same child that can view Obiwan getting lightsabered and say nothing, does not view Mal kicking a man through a moving engine the same way. I think that speaks volumes for Joss' ability at creating characters that people easily connect with, even 10yr. olds. The only other issue is some language..."Whoring" etc.. And because it does come up multiple times, kids will ask what that means....If they don't already know....My sad social commentary....I believe most ten year olds know what a whore is..ever listen to the children on the playground?

*edit*..Not saying they can tell there parents what it costs and where to get it, but they would be in the ballpark on the definition. And to all parents I advocate never telling a child under the age of 15....where to get it...And never give them the cashy money for it if they are under 17..........Kidding.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:15 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

It should always be the responsibility of the parent to choose what their children watch - to a point. For example (and I'm using generic names because it's funnier): Suzie is 15 years old, yet her mother doesn't allow her to see PG-13 shows or movies. Not cool.

So, how about Firefly? Well, it's been my experience that by age ten or eleven, children (in the public school system of America) already know all the words. And, fights break out in schools, too. As for the prostitution, lesbianism, and sexual scences: the first goes over their heads (for the most part); the second is one that children should be exposed to so they don't become homophobes; and the third, in my experience, is either boring or goes over their heads.

It is my opinion that children under ten, however, should not be allowed to view all of Firefly. I think that "Shindig" would be fine for the really young kids. And, for toddlers and infants? Who cares (I'm kidding!)? I don't think toddlers and infants should watch TV if the only programs on are trash like Barney and The Wiggles.

::shudders::

Children's television scares me...

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:17 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

Quote:
Originally posted by jamaicanbatman:
Oh and Chronic, i like the signature.

Woohoo, another Tower junkie! Finding one is as exciting as finding another firefly fan!

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

I'd hold up Gargoyles as the perfect example of a children's series. Yeah, it was dark, violent, brooding, and philosophical, but it treated its audience intelligently. It didn't shy away from violence (in fact, some characters [including the heroes] actively relied on it as a problem-solving solution), but included the consequences of it. Characters didn't just become a 'ship and stall out, but evolved deep relationships --which carried their own consequences (Fox/Xanatos, Fox' pregnancy and estrangement from her father, Alex' birth, Xanatos' reevaluation of his priorities, Renard's acceptance of his grandson. . .). Bad Guys weren't just moustache-twirling archetypes, but had motivations and justifications, and had to work to redeem themselves (instead of just turning Good), sometimes unsuccessfully.

Gargoyles was amazing, I watched it as an adult (if you can class being 19/20 as an adult) and it had me in awe. I think the episode where Broadway accidentally shot Eliza was the most grown-up storyline I've ever seen in a kids cartoon. It also had some of the most complex plotting I've seen in anything. Have you seen the new comic book? It continues where season two left off and ignores all that silly Goliath Chronicles nonsense.

Also (getting completely off topic) if you're a fan of Gargoyles you should check out Justice League, it's a similarily adult themed kids show and has some of the most adult relationships I've seen in anything. And even better, it features the voices of Nathan Fillion, Adam Baldwin, Morena Baccarin and Gina Torres!

-------------------------------------------------

I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:28 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Hey Chronic saw your post on the other thread about this. I posted that most six year old children have seen Star Wars. They understand that the death in SCI-FI movies is fake. The problem with FF is the characters seem more "real". In my experience( Watching with a 10yr old )the same child that can view Obiwan getting lightsabered and say nothing, does not view Mal kicking a man through a moving engine the same way. I think that speaks volumes for Joss' ability at creating characters that people easily connect with, even 10yr. olds. The only other issue is some language..."Whoring" etc.. And because it does come up multiple times, kids will ask what that means....If they don't already know....My sad social commentary....I believe most ten year olds know what a whore is..ever listen to the children on the playground?

To an extent I agree with you about Star Wars but my other example, Indiana Jones, I think is very different. As a kid I loved Star Wars but I believed in Indy. He was as real as a movie could be to a little kid. He was absolutely my hero. But to see him pull out a gun and shoot a guy wasn't horrifying, it was funny, it was cool and ultimately in my mind it was very real. I think to see Mal push someone into a engine would have had a similar impact. Alternately, I think Kaylee getting shot or Tracey's death would have affected me more because that's presented as real. I'd have much more difficult showing that to a child than the engine thing.

-------------------------------------------------

I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:32 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Hey Chronic saw your post on the other thread about this. I posted that most six year old children have seen Star Wars. They understand that the death in SCI-FI movies is fake. The problem with FF is the characters seem more "real". In my experience( Watching with a 10yr old )the same child that can view Obiwan getting lightsabered and say nothing, does not view Mal kicking a man through a moving engine the same way. I think that speaks volumes for Joss' ability at creating characters that people easily connect with, even 10yr. olds. The only other issue is some language..."Whoring" etc.. And because it does come up multiple times, kids will ask what that means....If they don't already know....My sad social commentary....I believe most ten year olds know what a whore is..ever listen to the children on the playground?

To an extent I agree with you about Star Wars but my other example, Indiana Jones, I think is very different. As a kid I loved Star Wars but I believed in Indy. He was as real as a movie could be to a little kid. He was absolutely my hero. But to see him pull out a gun and shoot a guy wasn't horrifying, it was funny, it was cool and ultimately in my mind it was very real. I think to see Mal push someone into a engine would have had a similar impact. Alternately, I think Kaylee getting shot or Tracey's death would have affected me more because that's presented as real. I'd have much more difficult showing that to a child than the engine thing.

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I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

Yep I'm with you...felt the same way..And your example is better than mine(Kaylee etc.) That is the point I was trying to make.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:33 AM

LOSTDOG

Yes, Justice League is a good cartoon. I like it even better now that I have found out the crew did the voices. Gargoyles was good, too. The guy who played Goliath, he had an awesome voice. Wasn't he in the movie Men at Work w/ Emilio and Charlie playing the ex-vietnam crazy guy?(He might prefer being remembered for other things, though) Okay, sorry way off subject. But he was funny in that movie.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:41 AM

ZZETTA13

I haven't read all the posts yet but I intend to when I get more time. For now I wanted to throw in my $.50

Here are some lines by the crew.

Mal:" Ain't no one took a hold of my plow for a long time 'cept me."

Zoe: " Remember that sex we were planning to have, ever?"

Kaylee:" Have good sex." and " Ain't had nuthin twinxed my nethers in a long while ain't run on batteries."

Wash: " I like our party better. I know all the steps." and "...you with the bathing. Me with the watching you bath."

Jayne: "I'll be in my bunk."

Course most of these are mild and most all would fly over the head of a child. I think it's Inara's sex scenes that I world worry about getting questions from a 6 year old. I might get a little stutter explaining that.

Z

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:48 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
" Ain't had nuthin twinxed my nethers in a long while ain't run on batteries."

That raises an interesting point, though I'd be happy showing a child Firefly I would have very definite reservations about showing them Serenity. I think the violence is far more visceral than in Firefly and I'd definately have problems showing it to anyone who wasn't at least in double figures.

-------------------------------------------------

I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:52 AM

LITTLEALBATROSS29

Shiny ! Dark Tower fans.It is like finding Browncoats ! Couldn't you just see Nathan as Roland ?

My 6 year old is only interested if Serenity is on the screen.But he did see Heart of Gold somehow. The only thing he cared about was when Mal rode the bad guy down on a horse.There was cheering. Otherwise I would say he's just a little too immature for it.My little one can sing the theme song and he's only 2 !When the time comes they both will be Browncoats !

Gargoyles was such a great show.Not many around like that anymore.I also really like Justice League . I used to love the Superfriends as a kid !

Bryce
******************************************

I swallowed a bug.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:58 AM

KANEMAN

I'd agree with the violent characterization of Serenity..But...Twinxing of nethers and battery operated "whodonnits", would most definitely bypass the head of the little ones( no pun intended)..Shit it took me awhile to get that one...Still not sure I'm 100%.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:05 AM

DARKFLY

Yeah I never realized she even said twix my nethers... until I watched Serenity the 2nd time.

Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:49 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:
Gargoyles was amazing, I watched it as an adult (if you can class being 19/20 as an adult) and it had me in awe. I think the episode where Broadway accidentally shot Eliza was the most grown-up storyline I've ever seen in a kids cartoon. It also had some of the most complex plotting I've seen in anything. Have you seen the new comic book? It continues where season two left off and ignores all that silly Goliath Chronicles nonsense.

Yeah, I've seen the comics, and I'm hoping they follow the TGS timeline (The Gargoyles Saga is a fanfic continuation/spinoff, based on Weisman's notes). I really wanna see TimeDancer in comic form. Could spin off a whole new series.

Though I'm one of the few who liked the Goliath Chronicles.

Trying to cut things out of continuity just opens a whole new can of worms.

Anyone heard anything WRT to the S2.2 DVDs?

Quote:
Also (getting completely off topic) if you're a fan of Gargoyles you should check out Justice League, it's a similarily adult themed kids show and has some of the most adult relationships I've seen in anything. And even better, it features the voices of Nathan Fillion, Adam Baldwin, Morena Baccarin and Gina Torres!

I never know whether to count the DCU tooniverse as a kids' show: where I am it's been relegated to prime-time blocks ("viewer discretion is advised") since before it was "Unlimited." Only one that played Saturday mornings its whole run was Batman Beyond. I generally only consider "childrens' shows" as airing during daylight.

Of course, InuYasha has never been on before 9pm, and I've seen 10-year-olds playing with InuYasha toys. Canada's TV broadcasting regulations are. . . odd (and unfair, but that's a whole other diatribe). Anything good on Canadian TV exists in spite of them.

Other good kids' shows I've seen include: The Powerpuff Girls ('cause it's just so laden with pop-culture in-jokes and zaniness --there was one episode where every line of dialogue was a Beatles lyric

), TMNT (from what I've seen of the new series[*], it seems by turns funy, dark, and action-packed, though the violence is very visibly toned down), Cardcaptors (one of the very few cases I'd recommend the dub over the original[**] --except for the very end, where the finale is sliced to ribbons to avoid any possibility that Li and Sakura are anything more than friends), The Batman (which I've only seen in parts[***]), Avatar, the Last Airbender ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=8&t=22783), Transformers: Beast Wars, Transformers: Beast Machines, Roughnecks: Starship Troopers, War Planets, Reboot, Hot Wheels Acceleracers (these last six are all made by a Canadian company called Mainframe, who might be the best CGI house outside of Pixar, and are one of the best animation houses outside of Japan) and W.I.T.C.H. ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=8&t=22591).

Most of the animé I've seen is part of the late-night blocks, so it has to be off the list by my own rules. That said, there's not much I wouldn't let kids watch (well, aside from the really adult stuff, like GitS:SAC or WHR). Hell, I'd let kids watch Gundam Seed. Who'd have a better perspective of violence, a kid who's told "War is bad," or a kid who's seen characters he knows getting killed (and not coming back)?

[*] It airs here on Teletoon, who refuse to air it in order, and are at least two seasons behind the US airings.

[**] Much as I love it, CLAMP are kinda guilty of writing their own slashfic --I'm fairly open-minded, but I don't want every character to be bi. Plus, with a cast of 10-year-olds, it's kinda squick-worthy. The dub tones down the shippyness (paring it down to just the Mei-lin/Li/Sakura triangle), and actually manages to give some real motivation that actually improves the story.

[***] Another Teletoon series.

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:13 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

I know Greg (Weisman) has said that he's never read any TGS stuff, he's not really interested in it and from what he did know they'd made some weird changes as to character (can't remember the exact quote, it's somewhere in the Ask Greg archive). I know he recently revised canon too (not the series, just what happened before/after), so I'm not sure how close TGS is to what he had planned now.

I'd love to see a Timedancer series in any form, tho I hate the idea of Gargoyles 2198, really goes against what I see Gargoyles as being about. Did you know Weisman's a Whedon fanatic too? He actually sat down and worked out a list of everyone to ever appear in the Buffyverse and rank their importance by season.

The only episode of Goliath Chronicles I remember liking was the one where Goliath was turned human, other than that it felt like a shamless rip on a once great show.

Don't know what's going on with the DVDs, we don't even have season one yet in the UK. Giving serious thought to importing them and the comic.

I can't stand The Batman, at first simply because it wasn't Batman: The Animated Series, but then when I gave it a real try it just went downhill so fast it became cringeworthy. Reboot was great after the first season.

As bad as it would become, Power Rangers actually did some really good stuff early on. The whole Green Ranger saga was surprisingly well done.

Other than that, Pirates of Dark Water was pretty awesome but never got finished.

WHR = Witch Hunter Robin?
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I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 11:25 AM

MSG

As a teacher I'd say I would let a child under 13 watch parts of it,but not all. I think most things that aren't graphically and realistically violent or sexual are fine for any kid so long as the parent is watching with. I think very few things are ok for kids to watch by themselves!
Just like we "protect" kids from kiddie porn" we need to protect their minds from exposure to content that has been repeatedly proven to cause emotional or psychological problems...that said, I'd say all but War Stories and Heart of Gold should be fine as long as context and talk through was done.
As in parent sits with kid and makes comments like..that's a bad word and it's mean to say so I don't think he should say that(referencing Mal calling Inara a whore or other such stuff)or Just because you see someone solve that problem by hitting doesn't mean that hitting is ok in real life. People on t.v. get to do things differently than we do when it's real. It feels good to imagine hitting a bad guy, but that's not what I'd want you to do. Also, doing the same talk over good things... look how Mal stands up for River, because she's his friend and he wants to help her ( Yeah, but she's our witch so cut her the hell down)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:09 PM

DONCOAT

Point of interest: the word is "'twixt". It's an abbreviation of "betwixt", an old-fashioned synonym of "between".

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I'm pointin' right at it!

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:37 PM

BIGWOLF18

my little sister was, 9 when she saw, serenity and firefly, and she understood all of it, although she is very intelligent for her age, so i dont know if that counts, and im omly 13.

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the summer is hot normally but in england its more like winter!

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:38 PM

GRRRARG

Quote:
Originally posted by Darkfly:
Prostitution,lesbianism,violence,sexual refrences, torture,swearing,swearing in chinese,sex scenes,ect.
If that's suitable for anybody under 11 then GOD help us all,this is why people are getting dumber, there allowed to see,watch,& hear things they should not be allowed to till they can completely understand.Look at the stats stealing,prostition, teenage pregenancies,murdering,worser grades in school,unemployment,ect. all these thing's are geeting higher every year,if you want the main culprit it's the parents(not completely)I was brought up with manner's,wasn't allowed to buy or watch anything I wanted,I was never allowed to watch an 18 till I was 15 & that was Terminator & even then my Dad wouldn't let me see the nude scene.And no I'm not 50 I'm actually between the age 16-23 but your never find out.

I am often quite amazed by the Puritanical bent that America still has. The big fuss over GTA wasnt the graphic depiction of death, violent assault, or, well, grand theft auto. No, it was about a hiden cheat that allowed the user to perform in vitual reality an act which YOUR mother and father performed at least once.
So, with that said, no, Firefly is not suitable for young children. Teens, certainly. Elementary school or earlier, no.
The reason

1. Prostitution: I'm on the fence with this one - Companions are less as Mal would have it, more like Giesha. Still, the women in Heart of Gold were persons who took monitary compensation in exchange for sexual relations - and thats hard to explain to someone very young. Better to leave that one in the Adult Situations column.

2. Lesbianism. Oh, how provincal! How very narrow minded. My son will not, at any age, find lesbians the least bit shocking, since by the time he will be old enough to know exactly what a lesbian is, he will have known quite a few. Welcome to the 21st century.

3. Violence/ torture. Heres the clear one. A child does not need to see graphic depictions of violence. He does not need to see people getting shot, tortured, or shoved into jet intakes (silly minor character). So, when daddy is playing Day of Defeat, the boy is sound asleep or at daycare. When he's not, I'm not playing DoD. So, he doesnt get to see FF until he's older.

4. Swearing. Thats a minor annoyance - children will hear all sorts of swearing from innumerable sources, and as long as its clear that no, you do NOT say that word, its not really that big of a deal.

5. Swearing in Chinese. Are you kidding. No, really, is that actually meant to be taken seriously?

6. Sex scenes/sexual references. Well, if we're talking the special Hell sex scene, theres a damn fine moral to be learned: Dont think with Mr. Happy. And theres the flashback where Kaylee is gettin' some with Serenity's first mechanic - thats hardly graphic. And once again, theres the sex scene in Heart of Gold, but you know, you start off with prostitutes, and, well, in for a penny in for a pound. Besides, one typically leads to the other. I think the point to be taken is that women are sexual beings too - I'm not going to raise my child to think that sex is filthy, because that implies that women are too, and I aint havin' that. His mom's a woman, after all.

"stealing,prostition, teenage pregenancies,murdering,worser grades in school,unemployment,ect."

I fail to see a direct correlation between TV and those things - I dont steal not because I was restricted from bad TV, but because I was raised with self esteme. I didnt knock up girls because I had good sexual education - Mr. Happy wore armor. My grades were lousy in highschool because I was ADHD before it was cool. That and a crappy attitude. Oh, and I'm lazy.

No, I think FF is too violent for kids, but thats pretty much the only thing that knocks it down.

"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes." -Terry Pratchett "Night Watch"

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:05 PM

DARKFLY

If you read one of my posts on this thread then you would have seen I said I just added Chinese swearing for fun,& as for the stealing,teenage pregancies,ect. I also said in one of my posts on this thread it only contribute's a tiny bit. Plus you don't have to take it seriously this forum is suppost to be for fun right,it's just I replied to somebody in another thread & well another person decided to make a whole thread out of my reply.

Remember go & vote for Firefly at imdb.com & if your not a member become a member.

Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:20 PM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

I think the reason it's perceived that sex is viewed as being worse than violence is because a lot of children won't understand what's happening. You show a fight and they understand exactly what's happening, you show two people having sex and they have no frame of reference for it.

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I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

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Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:47 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I'm with Rugbug on this one. I'd let teens watch it, but not younger kids. There's sex and violence and torture and people getting their ears cut off and kids absorb things like that and have a habit of repeating them or describing them in great detail to the most innapropriate person at the most innapropriate time. It's a gift they have.

Heck, I'd even follow the same rule with anything after season three of Buffy and pretty much all of Angel.

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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 2:17 AM

DARKFLY

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
I'm with Rugbug on this one. I'd let teens watch it, but not younger kids. There's sex and violence and torture and people getting their ears cut off and kids absorb things like that and have a habit of repeating them or describing them in great detail to the most innapropriate person at the most innapropriate time. It's a gift they have.

Heck, I'd even follow the same rule with anything after season three of Buffy and pretty much all of Angel.

Who is Rugbug & Desktophippie I totally agree with what your saying cause I actually did orginally say in my first post about this that only under 11's should not watch it but again depends on the kid & the parent(s).

Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 3:44 AM

PROXIEME

I'm of the mind of most people who've posted:

I wouldn't be comfortable w/ letting my kiddo watch it until she's 10 or 11, and I'd hold off on Serenity until she was 13 or so.

Great points re: Gargoyles and Justice League - they're fantastic, intelligent options for the under-10 set (if you'd like to introduce them to more adult-ish themes). And, heck, I'm 26 and'll watch both

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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 4:41 AM

GRRRARG

Quote:
Originally posted by Darkfly:
If you read one of my posts on this thread then you would have seen I said I just added Chinese swearing for fun,& as for the stealing,teenage pregancies,ect. I also said in one of my posts on this thread it only contribute's a tiny bit. Plus you don't have to take it seriously this forum is suppost to be for fun right,it's just I replied to somebody in another thread & well another person decided to make a whole thread out of my reply.
B]

Well, theres two problems I have with this. First, I'm on dialup, and NetZero turns out to be incredibly slow loading pages here - so I dont actually have the time or inclination to scan every little detail of all the posts in this extremely active community.
So, #2, I go by what was said. Maybe what you said was taken out of context, but it sounded like a right-wing rant to me. Not, ha ha aint I wacky.
I'm also not 50, but this is a serious subject to me, because its not theory, its not an intellectual debate for philosophers - I need to decide now and maintain a consistant policy for what my child views on tv. I have to walk the excessivly narrow line between keeping my child safe from modern society, and preparing him for it. You post a joke, you say its a joke, otherwise, expect me to weigh in, and weigh in hard.

"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes." -Terry Pratchett "Night Watch"

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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 5:14 AM

DARKFLY

I've got dial-up so I completely understand.As for making a joke I didn't mean my orginal post was an actual joke I just meant the Chinese swearing was put there to add to the things Firefly has in it. Maybe I should have taken more time thinking what I was talking about in my first post(I mean the quote which is used in this thread at the top) but I never knew it was going to be turned into a whole gorram thread.

Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 9:40 AM

ELOISA

It's highly dependent upon the maturity of the child, and a few other interesting situations too.

Anyone else grow up in the 1980s? I don't have a reference for kiddy shows today, but was wondering if anybody remembered cartoons such as Pole Position, Thundercats, Mysterious Cities of Gold and Defenders of the Earth. Those were solidly aimed at kids aged 7+ (call it 7-15 for the sake of argument) and contained what is by the standards of Teletubbies a lot of cartoonish violence. Yet many responsible parents I knew (my mother included) were happy for their kids to watch them. It's pretty much swings and roundabouts what children have been exposed to anyway, in national network kids' programming - all a factor of the times.

I would happily show a moderately intelligent child Firefly from the age of 8 upwards, with the exception of War Stories (for the torture scenes, I would point out, not the lesbianism - given the number of lesbian friends I have, my kids'd have to be pretty daft to not have an understanding of that). I didn't pick this age with a pin stuck into a chart - I was 8 when I read The Silmarillion and started learning to understand story violence and sympathetic character death. I would add that various child development studies have suggested that child intelligence is strongly linked to adult interactions in a child's early years, so if you want an intelligent kid, you can do something towards that before it's three or so.

As Chronicthehedgehog said, Serenity's a lot more "visceral" (CTH's word) - more violent and, in a lot of ways, more real. I wouldn't show a kid Serenity until they were at least 11 (let's face it, they learn a lot of things the second they move to secondary school). I consider that unfortunate because I would love to show an intelligent child the BDM for its thought-provoking aspects.

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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 9:53 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Ooooh I loved Mysterious Cities of Gold!!! Loved it with a passion!!! In fact, I consider that to be the show that got me into sci-fi in the first place.

*ahem* Getting back to the point - Mysterious Cities of Gold certainly had some adult themes. Heck, the whole show was about the Spanish conquest of South America, and one of the main characters (Zia) is an Inca girl who was captured, taken from her home and sold into slavery, and is later found having been gagged and bound and left in a wooden crate on a Spanish sailing ship. And that was just by the second episode. It was also the first show I saw that dealt with death and losing family members.

When it was shown on UK TV the show also had little documentaries after each episode. One of the very first ones explained Human Sacrifice. Simply explained what it was and why it was seen as acceptable in ancient cultures. No shock horror or don't-try-this-at-home-kids stuff. I can't imagine TV shows getting away with that today. In some ways that's a shame, as it insults the intelligence of our children, but we have to be aware that kids really, really do absorb things. It's just important not to go too far in one direction or another. I know I'm one of many kids who was traumatised by Ginger's death when I read Black Beauty for the first time. Does that mean we should stop kids reading it?

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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:02 AM

KILLERBANANA

I think Firefly is very much suitable for children. Certain aspects I would not myself allow children that I have view upon until I thought they were ready (such as the sexual aspect behind the show) are done subtly that children would fail to see anything major in it. The swearing is light enough that it wouldn't effect there minds majorly (lets not forget kids are swearing at a young age, normally around the age of 8 or so) and the bits in Chinese would go right over there heads. As for lesbianism, I think its good to show them that love between 2 woman is perfectly acceptable. Its because children are raised seeing different sex marriages everywhere (in life and on tv) that they begin to form in their heads that it is normal, thus causing strong reactions when they realise that same sex relationships are perfectly ok. And there is the torture, ok, yes, I would be abit worried about showing my children this (if I had any), but its done in a way that shows torture as being immoral by holding the good guys/bad guys quality within it. And looking at what Darkfly said, what are the effects of children seeing such things? As far as I have experienced, nothing. From a young age I heard cursing and did so myself, I saw pornography when I was 8, I saw violence in films and more. Want to know how its effected me? I'm coming up 16, I just passed all my exams and I'm perfectly friendly and polite.

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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:14 AM

AUDDIE

my girls are 9 and 7... and we have a firefly marathan (ending with serinity) at least twice a month!! and as i have told my sister... what is on the news is worse than what is in some movies.

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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 7:12 PM

TRAVELER

My sister raised her two daughters with a very open mind. If her daughters asked her a question about sex she felt they were ready to know. Now her daughters are grown women with children of their own. They are both high achievers with college degrees.

That was sex.

Violence is harder. I live in a very violent city considering its small size. So our news casts discuss more violence than Firefly ever shows. But that is a sad statement of my city.
I would think twice about letting my child see Mal push someone into a engine intake. I'm not sure what age would be appropriate. I guess you have to be aware of what your children understand. Pay attention to how they behave and react to things around them. You certainly can't wrap them in a blanket their whole lives. Eventually they will have to learn this is also part of life. I don't envy the choices a parent has to make on this subject.

I will leave that decision on an individual basis. Who knows their child better than the parent.

Language.

It isn't the words themselves, but how you use them. What is apropriate. If the child understands that Mal is being insulting when he calls Inara a whore than they know not to do it themselves. I would hope parents teach their children to respect others and not hurt them with words.

The show does have very good values in it. But it also very adult. PG-13 would probably be my best guess if I were to rate it.

If people say their six years olds have watched Firefly and are doing quit well, than I can't argue with them. Some children just handle it better than others. As I said parents know their children better than anyone. They have to live with the little buggers after all.

I burned ants with a magnifing glass when very young. I did not learn that from TV. I came up with myself. So I don't think we have to worry about the next generation because of this show. There is a lot worse things for them to see.

Traveler

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