Rumplestiltskin - Villain or or victim of the royal spin machine? by seryn

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Rumplestiltskin - Villain or or victim of the royal spin machine?

POSTED BY: SERYN
UPDATED: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:20
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2826
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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:22 AM

Ok, we were having this argument in work today (it's been a wierd day - Clive Barker even dropped in) and the basic jist was I thought old Rumple got a raw deal.

So the argument is this - is he really the vicious, unsavory villain that we were made to believe he was in our childhoods, or is he really just a magically aided businessman of short stature and dubious personal ethics, cruelly duped by an unscrupulous King and his bimbo wife?

Basic story can be found here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpelstiltskin

My argument (and I was the only one fighting that corner) was that there were two main bad guys in tis story. The first being the millar, who in an effort to appear all great, boasted that his daughter had talents she didn't have, and the second was the king, who is just a general all round b*****d.

The boasting was A Stupid Thing To Do, and is a prime example of why that extra pint is never a good idea.
But I can forgive him his gross stupidity, but for one point - that he boasted so much that the King got to hear of it.
Did he broadcast it on tv or somethimg? It's the equivalent of someone going on big brother and saying "i'm going to be an A list movie star!" It just ain't gonna happen, but you can betchya booties that somewhere along the line some greedy piece of go-se is going to pimp his ass in an effort to make it do so.

Enter the greedy piece of go-se. The kingy not only practically kidnaps the millars daughter, holds her hostage for days and threatens her life and the life of her family, but then marries the girl (we never get her views on that development - if she didn't want to then its tantamount to rape!) for the sole reason that she can supposedly magic money out of thin air. Or straw.
Then, when the girl goes back on her promise (which was stupid to make and morally wrong to go back on, but would you give up your kid?) he uses his ill gotten gains to cheat outrageously! (by sending men out to gather information and eventually spy on Rumple)

Rumple himself, well he may not be pretty, he may have the morals of your average columbian drug dealer, minus his soul, and he may just be an idiot (that whole singing his name while dancing round trees? idiot!) but he aided a girl in serious distress (to be set up by your own dad? and held captive with an impossible task?) he made a bargain and he delivered. He made his demands clear from the start. He was willing to comprimise (guess his name instead of take the child) and when he was tricked he exacted no revenge - depending on the version, he either ran away or died horribly.

So what do you think? Please chime in with an answer, anyone else think im right? or am I just barking up the wrong tree?

and seeing as this is a Fairytale thread, trolls are welcome!

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:45 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
and seeing as this is a Fairytale thread, trolls are welcome!

HAhahahaaa...heeheeheetehe...heh...

I'm with you here. The miller was a braggart and an idiot that almost got his daughter killed and did get her locked into a life of servitude and childbearing. The king is a greedy git. Poor Rumpy was used and tricked. Sure he was no angel himself, but he honored his bargain.

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Heh. I'm in your corner. The poor mannikin was terribly duped.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:51 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

So if someone knowing your name negates all bargains and gives them power over you... you know what you should never do?

You should NEVER SAY IT OUT LOUD!!! Ever!!! And singing it while dancing around a tree in the middle of a forest with lots of other trees for people taller than you to conveniently hide behind is just ASKING for trouble. It's the fairy tale equivilent of putting your computer's password on a post-it note under your keyboard. Yes, I'm talking to you! You know who you are! You really think everyone else in the office doesn't know it's there???

Honestly, I think pretty much everyone in the story was mean. Rumple was just mean and stupid.

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:53 AM

MIRCEA

Gonna have to say that the only innocents in the story is the poor child that was being traded around (well sorta traded around) and to a lesser extent the miller's daughter. It was a horrible promise to make, giving away your first born and all, but it was a promise extracted under duress. From a legal stand point she had no reason to give up her child because the contract wasn't valid under the circumstances. Of course I'm not sure how much legality comes into play in dealings with magical creatures.

Q: How much does one man's sorrow weigh?
A: As much as he allows it to weigh.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:55 AM

KANEMAN

Seryn,
Thanks for the invite. I have'nt made up my mind just yet on the whole victim or villian thingy. I would like to add....THEE Clive Barker, lucky you!!! Is he a nice man? Is he weird? Odd?...I gotta know!

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:56 AM

MIRCEA

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
[ It's the fairy tale equivilent of putting your computer's password on a post-it note under your keyboard. Yes, I'm talking to you! You know who you are! You really think everyone else in the office doesn't know it's there???

Honestly, I think pretty much everyone in the story was mean. Rumple was just mean and stupid.

Actually I keep mine on post it notes stuck to my monitor

Q: How much does one man's sorrow weigh?
A: As much as he allows it to weigh.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Me too. I jusy have SO MANY post-it notes stuck to my monitor that it would take about... forever... to figure out where it is!

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:17 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

And I'll bet your bosses spend a fortune on top of the range firewalls and the best anti-virus software. Sheesh!

Sorry, used to work in information security. It comes back to me sometimes. That was one weird job for a hippie.

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:20 AM

MSG

May I reccomend the book " the Rumplestiltsking Problem" by Vivien VanVelde. She re-writes the rumplestiltskin story 6 different ways. She said she always had some questions about the story and each story she has writtenhas a different take on these questions

1- Why does Rumplestiltskin want the baby?
(answers are as varied as using the baby as an entree to rescuing baby from bad parenting...and so on)

2- Why does the miller say his daughter can spin straw into gold?
( varies from drunken prank to blackmail to stand up comedy to...)

3- Why does the king believe him?

4- Why does the girl bargin with her baby?( in one of the versions Rumplestiltskin is simply russian and isn't trying to steal the baby at all, just has a language barrier problem)

5- How does Rumplestiltskin end up?( ranges from traditional dismemberment to marrying the king)

It's a fab book

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:05 AM

CITIZEN

Rumple was a deeply disturbed fairy tale creature. After his family were killed by a run away house belonging to a multiple murderer known only as "Red Shoe Dotty" he fell into a deep depression and eventually alcoholism. One night after being kicked out of a Dwarf bar where he imbibed a little too much enchanted mead he happened upon a Human tavern, and snuck in hoping to make away with some grog.

It was a decision that changed his life forever. He heard many a tale of woe within, and set about setting himself free of the drink, living to help others. He repaired shoes for the cobbler going under, created a magic pot to feed a starving family, then he heard of the the miller, and the fate the tyrant king had bestowed upon his daughter.

Rumple, the reformed Alcoholic and full member of the fairy tale creatures benevolent association had no choice but to help. But it was a tall order, and difficulties with fund-raising what they are Rumple took some meagre payment to donate to the orphaned pixies fund.

It was the final night where Rumples grief and years living in a bottle got the best of him. He just wanted a family, any family. He'd give the child a good home he reasoned, it'd be well fed, and well defended from drunk driven houses.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:33 AM

SERYN

Kaneman - oh, he was great, came into the shop and bought some bits, presents for folks, said he was taking them back to america, so there was a brief discussion on the joys of trying to pack when there ain't enough room in your cases. Really smily, friendly and pleasant. Very kaylee-ish. Was quite funny, cause within seconds of him entering the building the word had spread, bur everyone was being really cool and none fanboyish about it.

So does everyone agree with me? Did i argue too well?

So what do we think of the giant at the top of the beanstalk?

http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:00 PM

RMMC

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
And I'll bet your bosses spend a fortune on top of the range firewalls and the best anti-virus software. Sheesh!

Sorry, used to work in information security. It comes back to me sometimes. That was one weird job for a hippie.

DH, I have to remember a dozen (I kid you not) different passwords just to be able to do my flippin' job every day. We need simplification in the work place.

Either that, or get the ruttin' stuff off-line!

Sheesh.

/rant

Sorry.

Ahem...old Rumpy. huh.

I kinda thought that they all (except for Rumpy) should have been brought up on charges for child endangerment charges. Rumpy, for making the deal to get a kid, should have been put up on charges for slavery and evaluated to see if he was a child molester. Then there's the whole posibility of kiddy porn or prostitution.

So my thought is except for the child, they all belong in the pokey.

********
RMMC

"Jayne. You'll scare the women."

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:29 PM

CAVALIER

What would you do in the girls position? If she does not make the deal, either her or her father (depending on the story) will die. If she does make the deal, she might not have to keep it. Rumplestiltskin might die. Her child might die. She, as Queen of the country, might be able to buy him off with something of greater value to him than a foundling.

Rumplestiltskin could not have enforced his contract, so she must have had some sense of honour, or she would have felt no dilemma at all.

The real questions are: why did Rumplestiltskin want her child so badly instead of, say, a thousand acres of farmland?

And what happened next time the King wanted straw turned into gold?

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:01 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
So does everyone agree with me? Did i argue too well?

Perhaps you did. Of course you missed some essential genre conventions of fairy tales of the sort compiled by the brothers Grimm.

1) Kings and princes are always good.
2) All young peasant girls want nothing as much as they want to marry into royalty; and any subterfuge they or their parents use to achieve that goal is justified.
3) Short ugly men/women with strange sounding names are always evil. (As are step mothers although that doesn't come into this story so much.)

Once these necesary preconceivings are taken into acount it's obvious that all characters of the tale in question are the embodiment of goodness except the ugly little troll with the unusual name - who is by convention evil.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:09 PM

OPPYH

This is weird. I have Shelley Duvall's Fairy Tale theater on dvd, and I just watched the Rumplestilskin episode last night. Rumpie was played by Herve Villechaice (Tatoo from Fantsy Island) and he was really creepy.

Shelley Duvall played the millar's daughter, and considering I love everthing Shelley Duvall(movies, tv series, and looks...she is very attractive no matter what my friends say) I am against the creepy Rumples, and all that he represents.

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Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:26 PM

SERYN

so thats the basis of your argument, the fact that you think Shelley Duvall is hot?

Well, wars have be fought for less...

http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:49 AM

SPACEANJL

Just to say - I would have turned into a dribbling fan-girl if I met the man who wrote Weaveworld.

I love the re-imagining of fairy-tales. 'Company of Wolves', anyone? And as a feminist/republican I can say I'm on the side of the little guy. Though why the hell he would want the brat beats me...

Oh- you ever see that version of Snow White with Sigourney Weaver in it? Now that is interesting.

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:45 AM

DONCOAT

Not to mention "Wicked".

(The book, that is; I haven't seen the musical.)

Talk about turning conventional wisdom on its head! Who'd have imagined the Wicked Witch of the West as a misunderstood heroine?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:47 AM

CALLMESERENITY

This is amusing. I have been reading "Grimm's Grimmest" a collection of some of the, well, grimmest of the Grimm's Fairytales.

And last night I was reading this one:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/grimmtmp/051.txt

And it really bothered me.

First she runs away because her father wants to marry her. I get that.

But then she woos him back? She suddenly forgets he's her father? And then the end: "But the king said, you are my dear
bride, and we will never more part from each other. Thereupon the marriage was solemnized, and they lived happily until their death."

I was really disturbed by this! Ick!

There are a lot of reoccuring themes here. The three dresses, the three nights, the three gifts, the despondent princess in disguise, the golden hair.

But the incest thing is a new twist.

Ooops, did I just hijack your thread, Seryn. Sorry!

Serenity,
President of The Juggled Gosling Chatroom
Bride8

http://callmeserenity.livejournal.com/

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:24 AM

SERYN

oh, the dribbling fan-girl was never far away, but i just about had her under control, not at bad as a friend when she met Antony Kiedis (chilli peepers singer), they were talking about friends of hers who were in another band, and he asked if they were old friends, and she replied 'oh! I'm not famous!' She went pink even just thinking about it.

I've seen advertisments for Wicked (the book) so its worth reading is it? have to say the idea intrigued me. And i've seen the company of wolves a lot, and i also read a reimagining of beauty and the beast. I have to admit i love it when good fairytales go bad!

I just finished a book called the Big Over Easy about the the Nursary Crimes dept. (yup, policing nursary rhyme characters) of Reading Police (Thats Reading the town) and its full of references turning nursary rhymes on their head like Jack the main character (a giant killer) is trying to prosecute The Three Pigs for the murder of the Wolf, and with his new partner Mary Mary, find out who pushed Humpty Dumpty (who has become an alchoholic, philanthropy-minded crime lord) off the wall.

One new argument (from the same friend) for the Rumple being a B****** side, is that he bargained for a human life, her exact words were 'its the same as selling your soul to the Devil' and just the act of treating a human like a commodity, means he is the bad guy. Which also means that the daughter becoms a villain as well, seeing as she sold a life.
She was also trying to argu that the daughter wanted to marry the king, cause everybody wants to marry royalty, even though they're so inbread even the cute ones look like horses.

But yes.

Serenity, i'm going to read that story asap, but i can say now, marrying your dad - wooing even, thats just plain wrong.

Great book.

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:37 AM

SERYN

oh, i just read it through, and i think its ok - its a different king!

So its not advocating incest.

It says 'then the King to whom this forest belonged...' or something like - if it was the original king, her father, it would have just said 'the king'.

Phew!

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:40 AM

CALLMESERENITY

But then how did he recognize the ring and the hook and the spinning wheel?

Serenity,
President of The Juggled Gosling Chatroom
Bride8

http://callmeserenity.livejournal.com/

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:44 AM

CALLMESERENITY

Oh yeah, and Wicked is a good book.

I have it, I can send it to you when I send you some other stuff. I'm not going to read it again and I was thinking of donating it to the library anyway.

I read a couple other books by the same author. A Snow White one and a Cinderella one. Both interesting twists on fairytales.

Serenity,
President of The Juggled Gosling Chatroom
Bride8

http://callmeserenity.livejournal.com/

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:46 AM

SERYN

She put them in his soup didn't she?

by the way, bread soup, bleurgh.

I only read it quickly, but i don't remember him recognising them, just being a bit surprised.

I 'll read it again.

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:56 AM

CALLMESERENITY

The version in my book is a bit different than the one online.

In my book he recognized the ring and the spinning wheel as the ones he'd given her as betrothal gifts.

It doesn't say that on the online one.

Make a difference, doesn't it?

Serenity,
President of The Juggled Gosling Chatroom
Bride8

http://callmeserenity.livejournal.com/

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:16 AM

SERYN

Yup. *shudder*

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Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:21 PM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
so thats the basis of your argument, the fact that you think Shelley Duvall is hot?

Well...sure, why not? I think it is a very good argument. She is hot in an unconventional way, and Rumps is creepy, in creepy sort of way.
Anyway What did Rumpel have planned for that poor baby? There were plenty of youngins in his section of the forrest. I thing the real message of Rumpelstilskin is headgames. He knew once she had the baby she couldn't give in, he just wanted to watch her twist, and stress about it.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:43 AM

SPACEANJL

I love the Nursery Crimes books. Wait until you get to the Fourth Bear. Prefer them to his Tuesday Next stuff - that was a bit 'look how clever and well read I am'. Try Malcolm Pryce if you can find him - 'Aberystwyth Mon Amour' and the other Louie Knight books. Well odd. The Welsh are strange, though. (I went to Cardiff Uni, I know these things.)

Hoping to get tickets for 'Wicked' actually - girlie road-trip near Xmas.

Angela Carter - always good for a laugh on alternative versions of nursery stories...

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:01 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

The only real bad guy in this story is the miller.

Both the King and Mr. Stiltskin could be viewed as bad guys, but in realiyt, they are simply doing what Kings and Trolls do. Kings are greedy and they get what they want because they are the King. Trolls steal newborne babies, it’s in their contract. Both represent the unfortunate consequences of the miller’s actions.

The miller, on the other hand, he’s the real bastard. He lied about his daughter to make himself feel more important. He was supposed to love his daughter and protect her from the Kings and the Tolls, instead he used her to bolster his own self worth in the eyes of others under false pretense.

In the end the Troll is done in by his own bragging.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:38 AM

22CLAWS

Entirely pointy.

Have you seen the Freeway movies? Fairy tales are really creepy.

22

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:18 AM

SERYN

But how can you say that the King and Rumple aren't bad just because they are doing what kings and trolls do?

If a mob boss slaughtered a man who crossed him and his innocent family, would you forgive him because thats just what mobsters do?

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:51 AM

RHYIANAN

There's a book called Spinners by Donna Jo Napoli that is told from Rumplestiltskin's point of view. It's a little unconventional, but in the end, you feel sorry for both him and the miller's daughter.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:56 AM

RHYIANAN

Quote:
Originally posted by CallMeSerenity:
This is amusing. I have been reading "Grimm's Grimmest" a collection of some of the, well, grimmest of the Grimm's Fairytales.

And last night I was reading this one:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/grimmtmp/051.txt

And it really bothered me.

First she runs away because her father wants to marry her. I get that.

But then she woos him back? She suddenly forgets he's her father? And then the end: "But the king said, you are my dear
bride, and we will never more part from each other. Thereupon the marriage was solemnized, and they lived happily until their death."

I was really disturbed by this! Ick!

There are a lot of reoccuring themes here. The three dresses, the three nights, the three gifts, the despondent princess in disguise, the golden hair.

Actually, I've read several versions of this tale and none of the ones I've seen have her marry her father. She usually marries the king of a neighboring kingdom. One of the most expanded and interesting of the ones I read is the book Deerskin by Robin Mckinley (I may have spelled that wrong). However, I wouldn't reccomend that book to the faint of heart.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:51 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
But how can you say that the King and Rumple aren't bad just because they are doing what kings and trolls do?

If a mob boss slaughtered a man who crossed him and his innocent family, would you forgive him because thats just what mobsters do?

Well, what kings, trolls and mob bosses do is generally perceived to be bad, therefore we can usually conclude they are bad. It’s not my intention to say otherwise. I’m not forgiving anyone, just recognizing that the King and Herr Stiltskin are constants in this equation. My intent is to point out that the story is about the miller, and the miller is the variable. The King and R. Stiltskin are a consequence of the miller’s actions. The miller is the real bad guy. His actions and words precipitated the bad things to befall his daughter. Those bad things are the King and Senior Stiltskin. They were the wolves waiting at the door for the miller to be an ass. Had the miller acted with a bit character where his daughter is concerned those bad things would still be at the door, but away from his daughter.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:01 AM

SERYN

I get what you mean, what you said about the constants and variables made sense - the millar had the potential to be so much better, where as the King and the goblin were acting to type, but still, especially with those two as the yardstick by which he is measured, his biggest crime was being a braggart and an arse, is that really more of a crime than kidnapping, threatening with violence and bargaining for babies? Is it as morally wrong as enormous controlling greed or a wholesale disregard for human life?

I'll grant you that he caused the events that endangered his daughter, and if I ever met him he'd be marched from one end of the town and back again with his pants around his ankles. Then pilloried and pelted with rancid custard,

But do his faults, crimes, what you will, outweigh those of Monsieur Rumple and Kingy? Does he deserve to be the biggest villain of the piece?

http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:19 AM

CITIZEN

Of course, he's a miller, have you ever tasted that beer? Evil, pure pure evil.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:20 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
But do his faults, crimes, what you will, outweigh those of Monsieur Rumple and Kingy? Does he deserve to be the biggest villain of the piece?

NO and YES.

It is true that the King and Herr Stiltskin are far, far worse then the miller. The miller is really just an average everyday joe, whose only real faults are the average everyday faults that joe’s typically have. On the scale of evil the miller is way down there with the rest of us, unlike kings and trolls and various mob bosses who are all way up the scale of evil.

But kings and trolls and mob bosses will always be evil, because they choose to be; it’s a concerted effort. In a perfect world, maybe millers could make stupid self-serving comments about their daughters and not have anything bad befall their daughters, but in a world full of kings and trolls, miller’s must be careful to watch out for their daughters and there are no second place ribbons.

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