Fear And Loathing In The Jossverse by deepgirl187

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Fear And Loathing In The Jossverse

POSTED BY: DEEPGIRL187
UPDATED: Thursday, October 19, 2006 15:23
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Thursday, October 19, 2006 7:37 AM

I'm sure similar threads have been posted before, but I thought I'd post anyway.

A few months back I started watching Buffy, and later Angel. Since then, I've noticed Joss's tried and true tendency to make his characters as miserable as humanly possible. Just when you think it's gotten as bad as it can get, the inevitable worse happens.

That being said, I started to think about Firefly in comparison. Things were bad on Firefly, but not as bad as things could have been. Does that mean that the worse was still to come? If we'd had seven seasons like on Buffy, would our BDH's have suffered as much? What are your theories?

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:27 AM

RAINSTICK

with buffy and angel you are of course in the realm of the supernatural and occult, so that the darkness and the bad things that creep into the plot more and more as the series continues is much more obvious.
in the 'verse, the bad things are from this world, they aren't supernatural. what has happened to river, to mal, whatever might have happened to book, before the series even starts is already very dark. the workings of the evil alliance machine/blue sun corp are not as obvious as the actions/plans of demonic powers in Buffy and Angel. but nevertheless some terrible things have already happened to the crew, River almost gets burned as a witch, several characters are almost fatally wounded, or even tortured to death. fairly bad already, don't you think?
That said, i have to agree with you that things would have got much darker in speculative second/third/... seasons. what the government did with river, and the whole blue sun thing would have played a much bigger role, and the two blue-gloved agents would probably have got river at some point (for a short while at least). if you look at the development of battlestar Galactica, which already started very dark and got darker and bleaker with each following season (okay, i haven't seen 3 yet, but i'm guessing it is even darker than 2 was), you can only make a wild assumption of what might have been with firefly. some of that additional darkness got into the movie with two of our fellowship of nine actually dying. i doubt whether having seven seasons would have made the movie suffer, because with seven seasons there would've been no need for one.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:30 AM

CYBERSNARK

Oh, Hell yes. Joss hates happy people.

Either Simon or Kaylee (but not both) will die in the next movie. If Mal and Inara ever iron out their feelings, one will either die or be horribly disfigured. If Serenity hadn't happened, Zoe would've had time to discover that she's pregnant before Wash died. . .

And Mal would shoot someone we liked. And their puppy.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:45 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I'd be willing to bet that if Firefly had only gone five seasons, probably the only crewmembers still around would be Mal and Kaylee. And at least three of the others would be dead.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:26 AM

KAELE

No, Kaylee probably would have died too. She's too cute and likable. Joss, being the b*****d that he is, would make us love her and then take her away.

Mal and Inara would always be the unrealized relationship, just for the fun of it.

Jayne would have done something unforgivable, but kinda-sorta redeem himself. Over and over and over and over. Lather, rinse, repeat.

River would begin showing her super human abilities but would be unable to control her crazy fits and keep putting the crew in danger.

Simon would have more than a few times where he would have to choose between his sister and the life he used to lead. Each choice would have gotten more and more difficult.

Wash and Zoe would have had a baby and lost it someway. Either kidnapping or something worse.

And we STILL wouldn't have found out about Book's past. That's what makes it so great. He NEVER has to explain his past and no one should expect him to. I think above all, that was Joss' entire point about Book. (Obscure reference: ) It's like ending a musical piece on the V or VII chord. No resolution. That's right, no closure. On purpose.

Joss is easy to understand. Find the worst case scenario and he tosses it his character's way. Stories aren't any fun without angst.

Joss = King of Angst

~Kaele
PA Browncoats, Delaware Valley Brigade
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/PA_browncoats/

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:08 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER

The great thing about Joss is that he makes terrible things happen to all the people we care about... and life still goes on. People we care about continue to grow and change; new people show up for us to love; and we learn over and over again that you never forget but time does heal.

So if we had had seven seasons of Firefly, it wouldn't have surprised me if all but one or two of the original cast died, but that others had joined that we'd come to love just as dearly, or even more so (as blasphemous as that seems right now).

On a not-that-related point, I'm hoping that if it takes a really, really long time to get Firefly back on TV, Joss will still put in whoever is available and reveal the backstory bit by bit. So, say, by the time Season 2 comes, Nathan Filion is in his fifties and Sean Maher is in his late thirties and no one else is available. I'm hoping we'll still see them meet up and find out what happened to everyone else.

Indigo S.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:08 AM

TERRI

lol, you guys are soooo pessimistic! Granted, Our Dear Mr. Whedon does have a penchant for killing off characters we love. But, going as far as the whole crew, now that is a bit much. I do like the way he makes if like life. Things don't always work out in the end. There will be no fairy tale ending for Mal and Inara. Does that mean that they'll never find happiness? Probably not. But does it mean that they will die alone and angry? Well maybe in CTP's case, but maybe not. Joss gets you best by working you in with the characters, getting you to feel close to them, and then putting them through life's changes. But here's the thing: You never forget that sensee of family, you never forget that sense of right and love. Does that make any sense? I suppose I'm not explaining myself well. What I mean is that the basis never changes, though the extensions of that truth will. Anyway as for Book, I like the idea of never finding out about Book. Just him doing amazing things with his remaining clout in the Alliance, and that can of worms never being opened. It's priceless. The whole River thing does bring something to mind. I feel like she's not the kind of person that can stay static forever. Her situation would change. I think that she would have gotten worse instead of better, and that things would have spiraled out of control. But even as they did, the basis would stay the same. The togetherness, the family, and all that. But we all must admit that Joss is definately a fanboy at heart and if there's one thing a fanboy can't resist, is a happy ending. The good guy wins, the bad guy loses, and whoever is supposed to end up with whomever, they do.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:03 AM

KAELE

Quote:
Originally posted by Terri:
lol, you guys are soooo pessimistic!

I am not pessimistic. I just love a good story. :) Joss is the master of good stories. If I didn't like what he did with Firefly and Serenity, I wouldn't BE here! LOL

~Kaele
PA Browncoats, Delaware Valley Brigade
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/PA_browncoats/

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:08 AM

SIMONWHO

I like the idea of never finding out Book's past (a closed book, aha) but one of the behind the scenes video interviews from the series had a writer quite clearly stating that they were working on the episode which would reveal it and it wasn't what the viewers would think.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:56 PM

RMMC

It's not so much pessimism as realistic when you look at Joss's track record.

In Buffy,

Select to view spoiler:

the only ones who made it out alive, but not unscathed, were the core Scoobies (Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles) and Faith. The only other person who was introduced in the first few years of the show who lived was Amy and she turned evil. Okay, Oz also lived, but had pretty much left for good.

The dead consisted of: Joyce, Cordelia, Jonathan, Anya, Jenny, Harmony, Principals Flutie and Snyder and Larry. The fates of both Angel and Spike are also in question.

But a few of the baddies also persist: Ethan and Drusilla, I'll also assue that the First can't actually be slayed, so it's also on the 'still a threat' list.

(Spoilered this as some people may not have seen it all yet.)

While I think we'd still lose more in seven seasons, I don't think it would be as high of a count as all but two. That, and things'd be spread out more. I'm betting that Book was suppose to go probably mid-second season and Wash would have gone in the season finale of the same year. In the interim, we'd get new characters added, that Joss would make us care about, only to ruthlessly kill them at the most traumatic time for our BDH's (as well as us watching) 'cause that's Joss's way.

********
RMMC
"Those grenades?"
"Captain don't want 'em."
"Jayne, we're robbing the place, we're not occupying it."

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:17 PM

DEEPGIRL187

Well, that's...positive.

This is the kind of thing that I was thinking though. Joss has to make our people suffer. But on Firefly I think there was a more positive vibe for the first season than on Buffy or Angel. You really had a sense of family and of hope. Not to say they didn't look out for each other on the other shows, it's just that there was always this sense of foreboding that was always there, that something horrible was going to happen. The bad was coming on Firefly too, but there was still hope, something that felt a little lacking on Angel and Buffy. I think the best way to sum it up is a quote from our captain:

Quote:
I tell ya, Zoe, we find ourselves a mechanic, get her running again. Hire a good pilot. Maybe even a cook. Live like real people. Small crew, them as feel the need to be free. Take jobs as they come -- and we'll never be under the heel of nobody ever again. No matter how long the arm of the Alliance might get, we'll just get ourselves a little further.

There. Joss can always say things better than I can (though I suppose that goes without saying

).

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:23 PM

RMMC

Thanks!

Actually the first season of Buffy wasn't all that gloomy for all the foreshadowing for Phophecy Girl. Joss tends to have a good strong actiony first season, with an up beat conclusion (or at least the heroes winning more than losing) but then all hell breaks loose in the second and by the end of that season, the good guys win, it's at a horrible cost and the direness of it then carries into the third season. And we also have to remember, that FF was series interruptus. OiS was the mid-way point. Things had plenty of time to get a bit more dire. I get the feeling that 'Those Left behind' may very well have been intended to be the season 1 ender,

Select to view spoiler:

what with Dobson showing back up out of left field and shooting up folks and Book's sudden departure decision.

our heros won, but the cost was still there and they didn't win by much.

Select to view spoiler:

Season 1 of Buffy had lots of peril, and yeah, Buffy died briefly, she came back stronger than ever and mopped the floor with the Master and went off to the dance with the rest of the Scoobies.

Season 1 of Angel had lots of peril and Doyle died (and stayed dead) but by the end of the season, Cordy and Angel had banded closer together, Wesley showed up as comic relief, and Angel beat the bad guys and got a nifty toy surprise.

Season 2 of Buffy starts somewhat more grim with Buffy having trouble dealing with the whole dying thing. She is estranged first from her friends and it almost costs them their lives then is separated from her closest non-familial support: Angel who becomes the enemy. Things keep going down hill and just when you think everything will work out, the only way to save the world is for Angel to die.

Season 2 of Angel is also a bit more grim with Angel becoming somewhat detached from reality and his friends. This eventally almost costs them their lives, so he cuts them out of his life, not wanting to take that risk or go through that emotion pain. The issues are slowly and painfully resolved and just when everything looks like its going to be fine, we find out that the only way the world stayed okay was for Buffy to die (see finale of season 5 of Buffy.)

I could go on, but I'll give it a rest for now as I think you see where I'm going.

Look at it as learning from history and knowing it's gonna repeat.

********
RMMC
"I may be dead, but I'm still pretty. Which is more than I can say for you."
"You were destined to die. It was written."
"What can I say? I flunked the written." -- Buffy and the Master, 'Prophecy Girl'

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