'You see, Vera? You dress yourself up...' by cljohnston108

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

'You see, Vera? You dress yourself up...'

POSTED BY: CLJOHNSTON108
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 01:14
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VIEWED: 3655
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Sunday, November 5, 2006 2:28 PM

I'd always thought that putting Vera inside a spacesuit so that she could be fired from inside the evacuated airlock constituted "good science" on Joss' part.

Then I saw a recent episode of MythBusters, where they were testing the validity of three different historic designs for internal combustion engines that were meant to be fueled by... Black Powder!

One of the team members made a comment to the effect of, "Black powder carries its own oxidizer, so it can ignite in a vacuum, whereas gasoline needs to be mixed with air."

I thought, "Awwwwww, man! So Jayne really didn't need to dress Vera up!"

Oh well, I still love that scene anyway!

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 2:36 PM

VERSEEXPLORER

Hmmm, interesting point. I'm sure that our BDHs didn't have much of a scientific background. Most of us didn't know that, so I'm sure the crew didn't either.

Besides, I've always wondered why the gun was able to fire more than once. If it really needed oxygen, wouldn't the air rush out into the vacuum after the first bullet was fired? I always thought it was a stretch that the gun fired more than once. Now I know - no problem. It doesn't need the oxygen. But doesn't Vera look much better when she's all dressed up?

I made a web site to introduce my friends to the 'Verse.
http://web.mac.com/arcadianlc

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 2:40 PM

PENGUIN

You're assuming the shells Vera fired were black powder!

King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 2:45 PM

CLJOHNSTON108

Quote:
Originally posted by VerseExplorer:
But doesn't Vera look much better when she's all dressed up?

Hmmmm... Hard to say.

That's one fine lookin' weapon!

http://www.fireflywiki.org/Firefly/CallahanFullboreAutolock

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 2:56 PM

VERSEEXPLORER

Quote:
cljohnsto108 wrote:
That's one fine lookin' weapon!

Sure it is, but I have a hard time noticing when Jayne is in the pic. We all have our own priorities.

I made a web site to introduce my friends to the 'Verse.
http://web.mac.com/arcadianlc

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 2:56 PM

STEAMER

Well, you know, we are talking about Jayne here. Granted, there aren't many on Serenity who know as much about firearms as he does. But there might have been an incident past where he tried to fire Vera in space, had a misfire for some reason and got it in his head that she couldn't fire in a vacuum.

Then again, as Penguin pointed out, p'raps she uses a different propellant.

Inara and Mal
Argue what's canon
"I'm not a whore;
The term is Companion!"
FIREFLY

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 2:58 PM

MOOSE

Quote:
Originally posted by VerseExplorer:
Hmmm, interesting point. I'm sure that our BDHs didn't have much of a scientific background. Most of us didn't know that, so I'm sure the crew didn't either.

I am pretty sure that Jayne would know Vera's capabilities. (arrgh, beat to the punch by Steamer...)

Joss has said that they simply got wrong information from a so-called "expert", and by the time they realized that, it was too late.

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 3:06 PM

VERSEEXPLORER

Steamer, that's a great explaination. What was I thinking? Jayne appears to have very little education and not much on interpersonal relationships, but he would know everything about his guns.

And of course Penguin could also be right. He usually is!

I made a web site to introduce my friends to the 'Verse.
http://web.mac.com/arcadianlc

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 3:08 PM

CLJOHNSTON108

Quote:
Originally posted by Moose:
Joss has said that they simply got wrong information from a so-called "expert", and by the time they realized that, it was too late.

Ah, okay.
Belatedly Googled "firefly vera vacuum"...
http://www.fireflyfans.net/reference.asp?r=869

Sorry, I thought I'd actually found something original to contribute.

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 3:13 PM

VERSEEXPLORER

Quote:
cljohnston108 wrote:
Sorry, I thought I'd actually found something original to contribute.

There always seems to be an answer in the archives. It's a great post. Now the new Browncoats will be informed.

I made a web site to introduce my friends to the 'Verse.
http://web.mac.com/arcadianlc

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Sunday, November 5, 2006 3:16 PM

CLJOHNSTON108

Quote:
Originally posted by VerseExplorer:
It's a great post.

Hey! Thanks!

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Monday, November 6, 2006 7:33 AM

DONCOAT

Here's another possibility (for a fanwank -- I'm sure Joss's explanation is the "real" one): Vera can be fired in a vacuum, but there's something dangerous about it so she has an interlock to prevent it.

There's certainly nothing about the ammunition that would prevent its working in vacuum. Shells are sealed, they don't use outside air. This assumes that Vera's ammo works like present-day ammo, but that's reasonable.

So, what would be dangerous about it? I can think of several possibilities:

- Maybe the ejector mechanism (which provides the automatic and semi-automatic action) is designed to work with ambient air pressure, so Vera's likely to jam or misfire in vacuum. That would be less of a problem when you're only firing a few rounds, so it was okay to override the interlock the way they did. Besides, for the first round or two the suit would still have pressure.

- Maybe it's not an issue of being able to fire, but some other feature of the weapon that requires air, such as the scope. The interlock prevents you from firing it with the scope malfunctioning or miscalibrated, and so hitting something you weren't aiming at.

- Maybe Alliance laws forbid civilians firing projectile weapons in space, and the interlock is designed to enforce that. A current-day equivalent would be trigger locks.

- Maybe the real issue isn't air pressure at all, but that when you're in vacuum you may also be in free fall. It would be pretty tricky to fire any weapon under such conditions because of the recoil, but Vera would be far worse than most. (Of course, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to make your interlock sense air pressure when you should be measuring gravity, but oh well...)

Another very low-probability explanation is that Vera doesn't use conventional ammunition but some sort of ramjet-like scheme to propel the bullets. It's hard to imagine why anyone would design a firearm like that, though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Monday, November 6, 2006 8:01 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

Maybe in 500 years they finally worked the kinks out of that GyroJet concept!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg172-e.htm

The Cause of Gyrojet Inaccuracy
http://www.deathwind.com/cause.htm

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Monday, November 6, 2006 8:11 AM

CANTER

DonCoat, you sound like someone who would know something about fire-arms. I'm saying this because I didn't understand a damn thing about what you just said.

But maybe you can answer some questions I've been chewing on.

In "Objects in Space" Simon gets shot at *very* short range by a gun which seems to be big enough to propel a bullet straight through him.

I tried to rationalise this by positing that the bullet might be of a reasonable soft material, which would "spread out" (sorry, not the technical description) on impact, but that would mean it would cause much more damage inside Simon's leg, and the bullet would most likely not be extracted in one piece. I also argued that maybe the bullet had a smaller charge, to prevent it from going through bodies (like the small Deringers used by gamblers in the 'ole west), but it didn't make sense for a bounty hunter to have such a lightly charged weapon.

I also think that the weapon used by Dobson in the pilot was too small to cause the damage that it did to Kaylee.

What do you think? And remember...think captain dummy talk.

Burn the land and boil the sea...

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Monday, November 6, 2006 8:14 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I'm not even going to pretend that I have enough science knowledge to add anything intelligent to this discussion. I'm just posting to say YOU'RE A MYTHBUSTERS FAN!!! I'm a mythbusters fan too! I LOVE that show!!

*cough* Leaving now...

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Monday, November 6, 2006 8:42 AM

DONCOAT

Canter,

Short answer: Duhh, I dunno!

Long answer: maybe Jubal had a weapon designed for use aboard spaceships. You wouldn't want something powerful enough to penetrate the hull, which is generally a Bad Thing. So if you knew you were going to be doing your bounty hunting in some dodgy places, you'd go with something just big enough to drop your target but not big enough to make holes where you don't want 'em. This is also useful if the bounty requires a live capture rather than "dead or alive". Edited to add: an expert marksman like Early might choose lower-power ammunition anyway, because he knows he can put the shot exactly where he wants to disable his quarry without risking excessive damage.

Now, of course, that's just the opposite of the case with Dobson. We do know that he's not the brightest bulb in the Alliance string, so maybe he just went for the most powerful gun he could conceal.

In either case, you should keep in mind that a given gun can fire ammunition with different amounts of oomph. So you can't always go by the look of the gun. A bigger weapon like Vera *can* fire more powerful rounds, but it doesn't *have* to do so all the time. Unless it's Jayne firing it. (Some people load their own ammunition -- that is, take the casing, put in the powder, add the shot or bullet, and crimp it together. If you do this you can select exactly how powerful to make it -- though there are minimum and maximum loads for a given gun and ammo type.)

Also, as you pointed out, different kinds of bullets have different effects once they enter the body. Maybe Dobson was firing nasty dum-dum type rounds designed to make a mess inside.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Monday, November 6, 2006 11:06 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

If Jayne hadn't said she needed oxygen around her to fire, you could make a good case that she needed warmth, and that , as Book said, " it's cold outside."

Lubricants, even greases,can freeze at the superlow temperatures like in deep space vacuum, and metal parts can expand and contract at unpredictable rates, causing mechanical jamming.

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Monday, November 6, 2006 1:07 PM

ASORTAFAIRYTALE

I actually read something about this, that Joss and them asked a gun guy if that type of gun would need oxygen, and he said yes, but then after they shot the episode they found out that it didn't really.
So yeah, it was actually a mistake on their part.

---------
Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.

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Monday, November 6, 2006 1:29 PM

JAYNEWANNABE

As Earlys round hit in the thigh and was only a small calibre (judging by the bullet extracted by Zoe possibly a 9x19) it will generally remain intact and not pass totally through the leg. Also the bullet would nominally be lead and flatten slightly so in reality the wound should have been more severe than that shown. Most pistol rounds (especially 9mm) are designed to stop fully in people and remain whole rather than penetrating totally through a person or breaking apart once penetrated.

In the case of the 'Serenity' episode as it was a stomach wound caused by the fed (probably using a 9x19 again) the permanent and temporary cavities caused in the stomach area would lead to more complications than for a simple leg wound and hence more dangerous.

I hope this helps!

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Monday, November 6, 2006 8:12 PM

JPSTARGAZER

I couldn't find where I posted this information before, so I'll repeat what I can remember.

1.) As mentioned above, any lubrication in the gun would either have the liquid portion boil off due to the nonexistant ambient pressure or become too viscous due to the temperature drop that they wouldn't be operable.

2.) If the gun was gas-operated, chances are the difference in ambient pressure would make multiple shots impossible.

3.) Since space is a vacuum, there is no method of heat transfer (other than radiation) that could cool the barrel and other gun parts. Firing multiple shots could damage/destroy the gun.

4.) If the gun was fired from the suit, the oxygen would not leave the suit fast enough to render the gun inoperable. Even with the large difference in pressures inside and outside the suit, the orifice in the mask was small enough to prevent the outflow of oxygen long enough for firing as shown in the episode. I could do the math, but I don't feel like it...besides, Browncoats are generally trusting people.

What I noticed about the sequence was that Jayne must be an excellent shot, firing from the hip and hitting that energy point. It makes sense though, since he once hit a man in the neck from 500 yards with a bent scope...or so he says.

Hope that clears up some of the questions...

EDIT: In regards to jaynewannabe's post, it's correct that smaller ammo is not meant to exit. The French have a handgun called the FiveseveN that has 5.7 mm rounds (hence the name) that are so small, they're meant to tumble inside the victim, creating an irregularly shaped wound. Point of interest, the FN is what is used in BSG (post season 1) as the standard sidearm.

Some ammo is also designed to fragment on impact or mushroom, as you may have heard of hollow points. These are against the Geneva Convention for military use (but then again the US military still uses white phosphorus last I heard, so...).

I really don't know that much about firearms, so if anyone here was in the military or has any other corrections, let me know.

"All I got is a red guitar, three chords, and the truth...the rest is up to you"
--Bono

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Monday, November 6, 2006 9:05 PM

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Another possability to take into consideration is that Vera fired a type of caseless ammunition that had an electric or chemical firing mechanism. As there is no shell or case to enclose the projectile, there would need to be ambient oxygen in order for there to be a spark.

Granted Joss already said they were misinformed, but as I don't ever remember seeing a shell casing discharged from Vera, I'm personally going to accept this as the answer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

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Monday, November 6, 2006 9:21 PM

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Quote:
EDIT: In regards to jaynewannabe's post, it's correct that smaller ammo is not meant to exit. The French have a handgun called the FiveseveN that has 5.7 mm rounds (hence the name) that are so small, they're meant to tumble inside the victim, creating an irregularly shaped wound. Point of interest, the FN is what is used in BSG (post season 1) as the standard sidearm.

Some ammo is also designed to fragment on impact or mushroom, as you may have heard of hollow points. These are against the Geneva Convention for military use (but then again the US military still uses white phosphorus last I heard, so...).

The M-16 (AR-15 for civilian use) uses 5.56mm rounds that are meant to tumble as well.

As far as the US Military using white phosphorus for ammunition, you are right and wrong. All UN Countries that follow the Geneva Conventions are allowed to use Tracer rounds at a rate of one every 3rd or 4th round. Tracer rounds contain either white phosphorus or magnesium phospate to make them glow. Using them is not against the Geneva Conventions.

As far as incendiary grenades go, there are 3 that the US military uses currently. There is the M1 which has several classifications, they are: AW, GA, IM, NP, and Alcohol-Gasoline. AW is phosphorus mixed with a rubber-gasoline solution that allows the compound to stick better to surfaces while burning. GA is either liquid or solidified ("jellied") gasoline. IM is a thickened incendiary mixture, and NP is a Napalm filler. Alcohol-Gasoline is relatively self-explanatory. The AW used no fuze, but the Alcohol-Gasoline mixture used the M1 igniter, the GA used the M2 igniter, and the IM and NP both used the M3 igniter. AW is not used as commonly as the others, but it's phosphorus content is not againts Geneva Convention standing.

There is the M14 (also written AN/M14) is a thermite grenade that is used for destroying COMSEC, equipment, and vehicles to prevent them from falling into enemy hands. Because of the controlled nature of the Termite's burn, these grenates are rarely used as weapons.

Then there's the Model 308-1 Napalm grenade. This was designed by the Special Operations Branch of the Naval Weapons Center at China Lake California, the 308-1 Napalm was in direct response to SEAL requirements for a more offensive incendiary device over the M14. Issued as a kit, the user would take the included powdered Napalm ("M1 Thickener") and then fill the grenade with gasoline to produce a complete incendiary device.

Now my brain hurts from all this typing. Nappy time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

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Monday, November 6, 2006 10:34 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Another possability to take into consideration is that Vera fired a type of caseless ammunition

You can see Jayne load Vera a couple of times, I think, maybe in the Pilot and Heart of Gold, as well as OMR. The rounds look like big shotgun slug rounds with sharp diamond shaped points, real ugly, nasty projectiles.

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Tuesday, November 7, 2006 12:44 AM

JAYNEWANNABE

For my sins I am ex-military and currently work as a weapons subject matter expert for the UK government.

Jpstargazer's post is absolutely right, assuming that Vera works in the same way as current small arms and is not an electromagnetic gun or some other more advanced system.

Most modern military rifle rounds (such as the M4, M16, SA80) have a smaller calibre round of 5.56mm which exit the barrel at nominally 900m/s which can tumble on impact.

Pistol rounds are ususally fatter and squatter than rifle rounds and travel much slower and hence dissipate more energy on impact than the sleaker rifle rounds and hence dont penetrate as far through the body.

The Belgian FN round of 5.7 is used from the P90 (the gun seen in Stargate SG1) and is designed as a personal defence weapon which once again is slower than the standard military rifles.

I hope this helps.

Either way Jayne is still an excellent shot!

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Tuesday, November 7, 2006 1:14 AM

BROWNCOAT555

I think JPSTARGAZER is spot on. Jayne's statement actually makes sense, even if firing from space would not have been absolutely impossible, it would not have been advisable.

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