The Rime of the Ancient Mariner by MalsNara

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner

POSTED BY: MALSNARA
UPDATED: Thursday, April 5, 2007 00:09
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Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:22 AM

This the poem that Mal talks about in Serenity when The Operative calls River an albatross. Thought ya'll might wanna take a look. Any thoughts on why Joss used it?

P.S It's very long
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It is an ancient Mariner,
And he stoppeth one of three.
'By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp'st thou me?

The bridegroom's doors are opened wide,
And I am next of kin;
The guests are met, the feast is set:
Mayst hear the merry din.'

He holds him with his skinny hand,
"There was a ship," quoth he.
'Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!'
Eftsoons his hand dropped he.

He holds him with his glittering eye—
The Wedding-Guest stood still,
And listens like a three years' child:
The Mariner hath his will.

The Wedding-Guest sat on a stone:
He cannot choose but hear;
And thus spake on that ancient man,
The bright-eyed Mariner.

"The ship was cheered, the harbour cleared,
Merrily did we drop
Below the kirk, below the hill,
Below the lighthouse top.

The sun came up upon the left,
Out of the sea came he!
And he shone bright, and on the right
Went down into the sea.

Higher and higher every day,
Till over the mast at noon—"
The Wedding-Guest here beat his breast,
For he heard the loud bassoon.

The bride hath paced into the hall,
Red as a rose is she;
Nodding their heads before her goes
The merry minstrelsy.

The Wedding-Guest he beat his breast,
Yet he cannot choose but hear;
And thus spake on that ancient man,
The bright-eyed Mariner.

"And now the storm-blast came, and he
Was tyrannous and strong:
He struck with his o'ertaking wings,
And chased us south along.

With sloping masts and dipping prow,
As who pursued with yell and blow
Still treads the shadow of his foe,
And foward bends his head,
The ship drove fast, loud roared the blast,
And southward aye we fled.

And now there came both mist and snow,
And it grew wondrous cold:
And ice, mast-high, came floating by,
As green as emerald.

And through the drifts the snowy clifts
Did send a dismal sheen:
Nor shapes of men nor beasts we ken—
The ice was all between.

The ice was here, the ice was there,
The ice was all around:
It cracked and growled, and roared and howled,
Like noises in a swound!

At length did cross an Albatross,
Thorough the fog it came;
As it had been a Christian soul,
We hailed it in God's name.

It ate the food it ne'er had eat,
And round and round it flew.
The ice did split with a thunder-fit;
The helmsman steered us through!

And a good south wind sprung up behind;
The Albatross did follow,
And every day, for food or play,
Came to the mariner's hollo!

In mist or cloud, on mast or shroud,
It perched for vespers nine;
Whiles all the night, through fog-smoke white,
Glimmered the white moonshine."

'God save thee, ancient Mariner,
From the fiends that plague thee thus!—
Why look'st thou so?'—"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."

Part II

"The sun now rose upon the right:
Out of the sea came he,
Still hid in mist, and on the left
Went down into the sea.

And the good south wind still blew behind,
But no sweet bird did follow,
Nor any day for food or play
Came to the mariners' hollo!

And I had done a hellish thing,
And it would work 'em woe:
For all averred, I had killed the bird
That made the breeze to blow.
Ah wretch! said they, the bird to slay,
That made the breeze to blow!

Nor dim nor red, like God's own head,
The glorious sun uprist:
Then all averred, I had killed the bird
That brought the fog and mist.
'Twas right, said they, such birds to slay,
That bring the fog and mist.

The fair breeze blew, the white foam flew,
The furrow followed free;
We were the first that ever burst
Into that silent sea.

Down dropped the breeze, the sails dropped down,
'Twas sad as sad could be;
And we did speak only to break
The silence of the sea!

All in a hot and copper sky,
The bloody sun, at noon,
Right up above the mast did stand,
No bigger than the moon.

Day after day, day after day,
We stuck, nor breath nor motion;
As idle as a painted ship
Upon a painted ocean.

Water, water, every where,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.

The very deep did rot: O Christ!
That ever this should be!
Yea, slimy things did crawl with legs
Upon the slimy sea.

About, about, in reel and rout
The death-fires danced at night;
The water, like a witch's oils,
Burnt green, and blue, and white.

And some in dreams assured were
Of the Spirit that plagued us so;
Nine fathom deep he had followed us
From the land of mist and snow.

And every tongue, through utter drought,
Was withered at the root;
We could not speak, no more than if
We had been choked with soot.

Ah! well-a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the Albatross
About my neck was hung."

Part III

"There passed a weary time. Each throat
Was parched, and glazed each eye.
A weary time! a weary time!
How glazed each weary eye—
When looking westward, I beheld
A something in the sky.

At first it seemed a little speck,
And then it seemed a mist;
It moved and moved, and took at last
A certain shape, I wist.

A speck, a mist, a shape, I wist!
And still it neared and neared:
As if it dodged a water-sprite,
It plunged and tacked and veered.

With throats unslaked, with black lips baked,
We could nor laugh nor wail;
Through utter drought all dumb we stood!
I bit my arm, I sucked the blood,
And cried, A sail! a sail!

With throats unslaked, with black lips baked,
Agape they heard me call:
Gramercy! they for joy did grin,
And all at once their breath drew in,
As they were drinking all.

See! see! (I cried) she tacks no more!
Hither to work us weal;
Without a breeze, without a tide,
She steadies with upright keel!

The western wave was all a-flame,
The day was well nigh done!
Almost upon the western wave
Rested the broad bright sun;
When that strange shape drove suddenly
Betwixt us and the sun.

And straight the sun was flecked with bars,
(Heaven's Mother send us grace!)
As if through a dungeon-grate he peered
With broad and burning face.

Alas! (thought I, and my heart beat loud)
How fast she nears and nears!
Are those her sails that glance in the sun,
Like restless gossameres?

Are those her ribs through which the sun
Did peer, as through a grate?
And is that Woman all her crew?
Is that a Death? and are there two?
Is Death that Woman's mate?

Her lips were red, her looks were free,
Her locks were yellow as gold:
Her skin was as white as leprosy,
The Nightmare Life-in-Death was she,
Who thicks man's blood with cold.

The naked hulk alongside came,
And the twain were casting dice;
'The game is done! I've won! I've won!'
Quoth she, and whistles thrice.

The sun's rim dips; the stars rush out:
At one stride comes the dark;
With far-heard whisper o'er the sea,
Off shot the spectre-bark.

We listened and looked sideways up!
Fear at my heart, as at a cup,
My life-blood seemed to sip!
The stars were dim, and thick the night,
The steersman's face by his lamp gleamed white;
From the sails the dew did drip—
Till clomb above the eastern bar
The horned moon, with one bright star
Within the nether tip.

One after one, by the star-dogged moon,
Too quick for groan or sigh,
Each turned his face with a ghastly pang,
And cursed me with his eye.

Four times fifty living men,
(And I heard nor sigh nor groan)
With heavy thump, a lifeless lump,
They dropped down one by one.

The souls did from their bodies fly,—
They fled to bliss or woe!
And every soul it passed me by,
Like the whizz of my crossbow!"

Part IV

'I fear thee, ancient Mariner!
I fear thy skinny hand!
And thou art long, and lank, and brown,
As is the ribbed sea-sand.

I fear thee and thy glittering eye,
And thy skinny hand, so brown.'—
"Fear not, fear not, thou Wedding-Guest!
This body dropped not down.

Alone, alone, all, all alone,
Alone on a wide wide sea!
And never a saint took pity on
My soul in agony.

The many men, so beautiful!
And they all dead did lie;
And a thousand thousand slimy things
Lived on; and so did I.

I looked upon the rotting sea,
And drew my eyes away;
I looked upon the rotting deck,
And there the dead men lay.

I looked to heaven, and tried to pray;
But or ever a prayer had gusht,
A wicked whisper came and made
My heart as dry as dust.

I closed my lids, and kept them close,
And the balls like pulses beat;
Forthe sky and the sea, and the sea and the sky,
Lay like a load on my weary eye,
And the dead were at my feet.

The cold sweat melted from their limbs,
Nor rot nor reek did they:
The look with which they looked on me
Had never passed away.

An orphan's curse would drag to hell
A spirit from on high;
But oh! more horrible than that
Is the curse in a dead man's eye!
Seven days, seven nights, I saw that curse,
And yet I could not die.

The moving moon went up the sky,
And no where did abide:
Softly she was going up,
And a star or two beside—

Her beams bemocked the sultry main,
Like April hoar-frost spread;
But where the ship's huge shadow lay,
The charmed water burnt alway
A still and awful red.

Beyond the shadow of the ship
I watched the water-snakes:
They moved in tracks of shining white,
And when they reared, the elfish light
Fell off in hoary flakes.

Within the shadow of the ship
I watched their rich attire:
Blue, glossy green, and velvet black,
They coiled and swam; and every track
Was a flash of golden fire.

O happy living things! no tongue
Their beauty might declare:
A spring of love gushed from my heart,
And I blessed them unaware:
Sure my kind saint took pity on me,
And I blessed them unaware.

The selfsame moment I could pray;
And from my neck so free
The Albatross fell off, and sank
Like lead into the sea."

Part V

"Oh sleep! it is a gentle thing,
Beloved from pole to pole!
To Mary Queen the praise be given!
She sent the gentle sleep from heaven,
That slid into my soul.

The silly buckets on the deck,
That had so long remained,
I dreamt that they were filled with dew;
And when I awoke, it rained.

My lips were wet, my throat was cold,
My garments all were dank;
Sure I had drunken in my dreams,
And still my body drank.

I moved, and could not feel my limbs:
I was so light—almost
I thought that I had died in sleep,
And was a blessed ghost.

And soon I heard a roaring wind:
It did not come anear;
But with its sound it shook the sails,
That were so thin and sere.

The upper air burst into life!
And a hundred fire-flags sheen,
To and fro they were hurried about!
And to and fro, and in and out,
The wan stars danced between.

And the coming wind did roar more loud,
And the sails did sigh like sedge;
And the rain poured down from one black cloud;
The moon was at its edge.

The thick black cloud was cleft, and still
The moon was at its side:
Like waters shot from some high crag,
The lightning fell with never a jag,
A river steep and wide.

The loud wind never reached the ship,
Yet now the ship moved on!
Beneath the lightning and the moon
The dead men gave a groan.

They groaned, they stirred, they all uprose,
Nor spake, nor moved their eyes;
It had been strange, even in a dream,
To have seen those dead men rise.

The helmsman steered, the ship moved on;
Yet never a breeze up blew;
The mariners all 'gan work the ropes,
Where they were wont to do;
They raised their limbs like lifeless tools—
We were a ghastly crew.

The body of my brother's son
Stood by me, knee to knee:
The body and I pulled at one rope,
But he said nought to me."

'I fear thee, ancient Mariner!'
"Be calm, thou Wedding-Guest!
'Twas not those souls that fled in pain,
Which to their corses came again,
But a troop of spirits blest:

For when it dawned—they dropped their arms,
And clustered round the mast;
Sweet sounds rose slowly through their mouths,
And from their bodies passed.

Around, around, flew each sweet sound,
Then darted to the sun;
Slowly the sounds came back again,
Now mixed, now one by one.

Sometimes a-dropping from the sky
I heard the skylark sing;
Sometimes all little birds that are,
How they seemed to fill the sea and air
With their sweet jargoning!

And now 'twas like all instruments,
Now like a lonely flute;
And now it is an angel's song,
That makes the heavens be mute.

It ceased; yet still the sails made on
A pleasant noise till noon,
A noise like of a hidden brook
In the leafy month of June,
That to the sleeping woods all night
Singeth a quiet tune.

Till noon we quietly sailed on,
Yet never a breeze did breathe;
Slowly and smoothly went the ship,
Moved onward from beneath.

Under the keel nine fathom deep,
From the land of mist and snow,
The spirit slid: and it was he
That made the ship to go.
The sails at noon left off their tune,
And the ship stood still also.

The sun, right up above the mast,
Had fixed her to the ocean:
But in a minute she 'gan stir,
With a short uneasy motion—
Backwards and forwards half her length
With a short uneasy motion.

Then like a pawing horse let go,
She made a sudden bound:
It flung the blood into my head,
And I fell down in a swound.

How long in that same fit I lay,
I have not to declare;
But ere my living life returned,
I heard and in my soul discerned
Two voices in the air.

'Is it he?' quoth one, 'Is this the man?
By him who died on cross,
With his cruel bow he laid full low
The harmless Albatross.

The spirit who bideth by himself
In the land of mist and snow,
He loved the bird that loved the man
Who shot him with his bow.'

The other was a softer voice,
As soft as honey-dew:
Quoth he, 'The man hath penance done,
And penance more will do.'

Part VI

First Voice

But tell me, tell me! speak again,
Thy soft response renewing—
What makes that ship drive on so fast?
What is the ocean doing?

Second Voice

Still as a slave before his lord,
The ocean hath no blast;
His great bright eye most silently
Up to the moon is cast—

If he may know which way to go;
For she guides him smooth or grim.
See, brother, see! how graciously
She looketh down on him.

First Voice

But why drives on that ship so fast,
Without or wave or wind?

Second Voice

The air is cut away before,
And closes from behind.

Fly, brother, fly! more high, more high!
Or we shall be belated:
For slow and slow that ship will go,
When the Mariner's trance is abated.

"I woke, and we were sailing on
As in a gentle weather:
'Twas night, calm night, the moon was high;
The dead men stood together.

All stood together on the deck,
For a charnel-dungeon fitter:
All fixed on me their stony eyes,
That in the moon did glitter.

The pang, the curse, with which they died,
Had never passed away:
I could not draw my eyes from theirs,
Nor turn them up to pray.

And now this spell was snapped: once more
I viewed the ocean green,
And looked far forth, yet little saw
Of what had else been seen—

Like one that on a lonesome road
Doth walk in fear and dread,
And having once turned round walks on,
And turns no more his head;
Because he knows a frightful fiend
Doth close behind him tread.

But soon there breathed a wind on me,
Nor sound nor motion made:
Its path was not upon the sea,
In ripple or in shade.

It raised my hair, it fanned my cheek
Like a meadow-gale of spring—
It mingled strangely with my fears,
Yet it felt like a welcoming.

Swiftly, swiftly flew the ship,
Yet she sailed softly too:
Sweetly, sweetly blew the breeze—
On me alone it blew.

Oh! dream of joy! is this indeed
The lighthouse top I see?
Is this the hill? is this the kirk?
Is this mine own country?

We drifted o'er the harbour-bar,
And I with sobs did pray—
O let me be awake, my God!
Or let me sleep alway.

The harbour-bay was clear as glass,
So smoothly it was strewn!
And on the bay the moonlight lay,
And the shadow of the moon.

The rock shone bright, the kirk no less,
That stands above the rock:
The moonlight steeped in silentness
The steady weathercock.

And the bay was white with silent light,
Till rising from the same,
Full many shapes, that shadows were,
In crimson colours came.

A little distance from the prow
Those crimson shadows were:
I turned my eyes upon the deck—
Oh, Christ! what saw I there!

Each corse lay flat, lifeless and flat,
And, by the holy rood!
A man all light, a seraph-man,
On every corse there stood.

This seraph-band, each waved his hand:
It was a heavenly sight!
They stood as signals to the land,
Each one a lovely light;

This seraph-band, each waved his hand,
No voice did they impart—
No voice; but oh! the silence sank
Like music on my heart.

But soon I heard the dash of oars,
I heard the Pilot's cheer;
My head was turned perforce away,
And I saw a boat appear.

The Pilot and the Pilot's boy,
I heard them coming fast:
Dear Lord in heaven! it was a joy
The dead men could not blast.

I saw a third—I heard his voice:
It is the Hermit good!
He singeth loud his godly hymns
That he makes in the wood.
He'll shrieve my soul, he'll wash away
The Albatross's blood."

Part VII

"This Hermit good lives in that wood
Which slopes down to the sea.
How loudly his sweet voice he rears!
He loves to talk with marineers
That come from a far country.

He kneels at morn, and noon, and eve—
He hath a cushion plump:
It is the moss that wholly hides
The rotted old oak-stump.

The skiff-boat neared: I heard them talk,
'Why, this is strange, I trow!
Where are those lights so many and fair,
That signal made but now?'

'Strange, by my faith!' the Hermit said—
'And they answered not our cheer!
The planks looked warped! and see those sails,
How thin they are and sere!
I never saw aught like to them,
Unless perchance it were

Brown skeletons of leaves that lag
My forest-brook along;
When the ivy-tod is heavy with snow,
And the owlet whoops to the wolf below,
That eats the she-wolf's young.'

'Dear Lord! it hath a fiendish look—
(The Pilot made reply)
I am afeared'—'Push on, push on!'
Said the Hermit cheerily.

The boat came closer to the ship,
But I nor spake nor stirred;
The boat came close beneath the ship,
And straight a sound was heard.

Under the water it rumbled on,
Still louder and more dread:
It reached the ship, it split the bay;
The ship went down like lead.

Stunned by that loud and dreadful sound,
Which sky and ocean smote,
Like one that hath been seven days drowned
My body lay afloat;
But swift as dreams, myself I found
Within the Pilot's boat.

Upon the whirl where sank the ship
The boat spun round and round;
And all was still, save that the hill
Was telling of the sound.

I moved my lips—the Pilot shrieked
And fell down in a fit;
The holy Hermit raised his eyes,
And prayed where he did sit.

I took the oars: the Pilot's boy,
Who now doth crazy go,
Laughed loud and long, and all the while
His eyes went to and fro.
'Ha! ha!' quoth he, 'full plain I see,
The Devil knows how to row.'

And now, all in my own country,
I stood on the firm land!
The Hermit stepped forth from the boat,
And scarcely he could stand.

O shrieve me, shrieve me, holy man!
The Hermit crossed his brow.
'Say quick,' quoth he 'I bid thee say—
What manner of man art thou?'

Forthwith this frame of mine was wrenched
With a woeful agony,
Which forced me to begin my tale;
And then it left me free.

Since then, at an uncertain hour,
That agony returns;
And till my ghastly tale is told,
This heart within me burns.

I pass, like night, from land to land;
I have strange power of speech;
That moment that his face I see,
I know the man that must hear me:
To him my tale I teach.

What loud uproar bursts from that door!
The wedding-guests are there:
But in the garden-bower the bride
And bride-maids singing are;
And hark the little vesper bell,
Which biddeth me to prayer!

O Wedding-Guest! this soul hath been
Alone on a wide wide sea:
So lonely 'twas, that God himself
Scarce seemed there to be.

O sweeter than the marriage-feast,
'Tis sweeter far to me,
To walk together to the kirk
With a goodly company!—

To walk together to the kirk,
And all together pray,
While each to his great Father bends,
Old men, and babes, and loving friends,
And youths and maidens gay!

Farewell, farewell! but this I tell
To thee, thou Wedding-Guest!
He prayeth well, who loveth well
Both man and bird and beast.

He prayeth best, who loveth best
All things both great and small;
For the dear God who loveth us,
He made and loveth all."

The Mariner, whose eye is bright,
Whose beard with age is hoar,
Is gone; and now the Wedding-Guest
Turned from the bridegroom's door.

He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man
He rose the morrow morn.

"Some people juggle geese!"

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 6:18 AM

PLATONIST

A story to tell (Miranda), an albatross (River, is she good or bad luck?), a mariner (Mal), the wedding guests (viewers)...so many analogies, plus the poem is from the Romantic Period of literature (Josh draws his writing style from this period with Shakespearean sprinkles (the Tempest and the St. Crispin's Day soliloguy, Mal delivers)

By the way, River's, "please make me stone", is from The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Hugo, 1823), the same period of time.

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 6:19 AM

MALSNARA

Thanks, I didn't know that last bit and the others parts I agree with too.

"some people juggle geese"

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:13 AM

THOLO

Iron Maiden wrote a song called The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, based on the poem.

It's 13 minutes long and on the Powerslave album.

Give it a listen.

Keep Flying!!
Tholo

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:27 AM

GLADIATOR32

And a belter of a tune it is, too. The mid section of that song is one of the most powerful things ever recorded

-------------------------------

www.myspace.com/32dan32

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:47 AM

WANDERINGFOOL

Yes that is a great song!!!! by a great band!!!

good poem too

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 9:27 AM

TURNIPYODOUR

I think we need a link so that people can experience this song in all its glory. Be prepared for an 11 minute Maiden masterpiece:

Part 1

Part 2

From the Iron Maiden video 'Live After Death' filmed live in concert at Long Beach Arena 1985.

Up the irons!!!

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 10:21 AM

RHYIANAN

Hmm, maybe watching this will stop me from reading this poem to the tune of gilligan's island. Darn literature teacher for pointing out that it fits the tune (which is also the way she told us to test if a particular poem is a ballad or not).

I'm a leaf on the wind

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Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:14 PM

ZOID

Mal's 'Nara:

I don't think there was any deep hidden meaning in Joss' allusion to The Rime. The Op called River an albatross -- a bringer of bad luck and disaster -- and Mal pointed out that the albatross was actually considered good luck. The albatross only brings bad luck if you kill it (and by extension, the good luck it brings).

Not exactly a throw-away exchange of lines, by any means; but, not filled with deeper significance, either. It's possible to read too much into the writer's intentions...

On the positive side, another writer may have used a hackneyed old cliche ("You can have the girl when you pry my cold, dead fingers off of her."). Joss' true gift is the ingenuity he instills in even his throw-away lines.

Considerately,

zoid

_________________________________________________

"So the question you've got to be asking yourself, Mr. ... um... Operative, is 'was that five ident beacons or six?' Well? Do you feel lucky?" -Capt. Mal Reynolds, (sorta) Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 5:26 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
On the positive side, another writer may have used a hackneyed old cliche ("You can have the girl when you pry my cold, dead fingers off of her.").

Actually, that still would've been a pretty funny Mal-ism, just for a different reason.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 5:51 AM

CRUITHNE3753

What flavour is it?

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Sunday, April 1, 2007 9:36 PM

NAFLM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rhyianan:
Hmm, maybe watching this will stop me from reading this poem to the tune of gilligan's island. Darn literature teacher for pointing out that it fits the tune (which is also the way she told us to test if a particular poem is a ballad or not).

Then you probably don't want to hear me say that I sometimes get the Firefly theme song confused with the theme song from The Facts of Life.

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Monday, April 2, 2007 6:14 PM

MARINA

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

Mal's 'Nara:

I don't think there was any deep hidden meaning in Joss' allusion to The Rime. The Op called River an albatross -- a bringer of bad luck and disaster -- and Mal pointed out that the albatross was actually considered good luck. The albatross only brings bad luck if you kill it (and by extension, the good luck it brings).

Not exactly a throw-away exchange of lines, by any means; but, not filled with deeper significance, either. It's possible to read too much into the writer's intentions...

On the positive side, another writer may have used a hackneyed old cliche ("You can have the girl when you pry my cold, dead fingers off of her."). Joss' true gift is the ingenuity he instills in even his throw-away lines.

But by the same token Joss chose to use the analogy in the script at all, when he might just as easily have chosen something else. The "significance" that I got from it however was pretty straightforward - it's making the link between sea exploration, solitude, etc. to space exploration, solitude, etc. Just another one of those particulars that was thrown in to reinforce the (forgive me) "last frontier" theme.

Don't make faces.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:14 AM

ZOID

marina replied:

Quote:
But by the same token Joss chose to use the analogy in the script at all, when he might just as easily have chosen something else. The "significance" that I got from it however was pretty straightforward - it's making the link between sea exploration, solitude, etc. to space exploration, solitude, etc. Just another one of those particulars that was thrown in to reinforce the (forgive me) "last frontier" theme.

...And on the flip side of that same token, maybe Joss called River and "albatross" exactly twice in the movie because he knew "Into the Blue" was filming across town, and on a release schedule similar to his own...

That Joss. He's such a punster.

On the other, other side of this contested token however (exactly how many sides has this token got anyways?), IF Joss intended deeper significance from this nuance, it would be fairly apt since -- like The Ancient Mariner -- Malcolm can truly never go home again. Mal is doomed to roam the 'seas' of space forever.

Ergo, by calling River an "albatross" the second time -- at the movie's conclusion -- Joss is signifying that Mal's kept his good luck charm alive and just perhaps earned a chance to go home (or make a new one of his own). We know he's a lubber by birth and rearing, so why did he choose a space mariner's life, never dwelling on dry land again?

Personally, I rather doubt that Joss would be quite this specifically subtle, even with his core followers. I suspect that it's more likely a convenient turn of phrase to call a bad luck-bringer an 'albatross', and then have the main character clarify that according to the poem, an albatross was traditionally considered good luck, not bad luck. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And the tendency may exist to read significance into such devices that the author never intended. This leaving things open-ended enough so that the viewer comes to their own personal conclusions about the deeper meaning of the movie, is a hallmark of great films like "Blade Runner", the first "Matrix", etc., and it often stems from the throw-away lines. That the viewer may come to any of twenty differing conclusions is intended by the creator, more so than that one conclusion was intended by the creator. He/She simply casts the philosophical stink bait out upon the waters of consciousness, and then lets the little fishies of each individual's mind fight over it...

Pescadorially,

zoid

P.S.
See? I can argue both sides of just about anything. It's tough to live with myself. Really.
_________________________________________________

"Yo no soy marinero, soy capitán" -Capt. Mal 'Ritchie' Reynolds, (sorta), Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:53 AM

CALHOUN

I recently found this poem in a book of poetry(of all places..) and read it(30 something odd pages...) but each paragragh had next to it a version interpreted in a more modern style, made it better in my eyes.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 3:11 AM

MARINA

Edited to eliminate excuses for wrath.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 1:04 PM

ZOID

marina replied:

Quote:
Really?

You honestly believe that it's worth the time and energy to argue that the very basic correlations between the poem and the status of Serenity are "reading too much into it?"

Besides which, if other people want to discuss the poem and what THEY read into it, I don't see why you would continually insist on telling them they're wrong. You're correct in that there are a lot of things, in Serenity and pretty much any good book/song/film/series, that are open ended. Personally I think the authors would want there to be discussion and debate over those issues - otherwise, what is there to talk about?

With all respect (and I'm genuinely not trying to be rude), if you don't want to talk about the poem and the connections others made with the film, then maybe stop reading this thread? Because of all the things in the world, *possibly* reading too much into a literary reference seems like it wouldn't even make the list of things to worry about...

...And yet, here I am discussing the poem and the movie. Why are you so incensed? Is it that my opinion -- that the reference to The Rime is given strictly in passing and of no additional import -- is a valid (arguable) position? Or is it just that I disagreed with you that makes you angry?

If others argue that Joss' referring to The Rime was intentional of some greater significance, I readily admit that is a valid (arguable) stance. If I counter-argue that it is not, that is an equally valid stance, since we have no word from Joss himself about his actual intentions.

We are discussing the poem and the movie, so I haven't caused that discussion to come to a close by disagreeing. Furthermore, I haven't suggested that -- since your opinion differs from mine -- you go somewhere else to avoid a conflict of ideas. In other words, I have been respectful of the ideas of yourself and others, even if I disagree with them.

How can one benefit from the contrast of ideas without opposing viewpoints? Additionally, I made a fairly compelling argument for your position; but, you chose not to mention that in your riposte. Apparently, unless everyone agrees with your opinion then they and their arguments are worthless to you; you denigrate them.

So, whether you intended it or not, your 'Shut up! I don't want to hear your opinion because it disagrees with mine' attitude was rude, and wholly unjustified by any statements I made. I did not attack anyone else's opinion. So why did you attack both me and my argument with your counter-argument of 'I want you to go away'? Saying, "I'm genuinely not trying to be rude" doesn't cover the fact that you were intentionally rude.

...But, to put on the 'peacemaker hat' and not let this become some sort of personal war of words that is both uncalled for and to no one's benefit:
The goal of the sport of debate is not in determining who's the winner. Rather, it is to view both sides of the topic of investigation, and as a consequence, to derive a more well-rounded knowledge of the subject than would be possible from a myopic, one-sided discussion. My intent was to state my differing opinion, and then discuss both it and the differing opinions of others, thereby achieving a more rich discussion than simply, "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner references had an expanded meaning within the movie" and "Oh, I agree completely!", followed by, "Me too!"

Where's the quest for elucidation in that?

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
...And now, I depart the thread, per your polite invitation...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 3:00 PM

MARINA

I think you misunderstood me, which I apologize for. I also think I misunderstood your earlier post, which I mentioned to you.

However, I did want to clarify that I don't actually HAVE an opinion on this (nor has the concept of "winning" anything entered my mind - this isn't a competition, and if it were, this wouldn't be the one I'd spend my time on). There have been a lot of snarky posters lately shooting others down, and for some reason I read your comment about others reading too much into it as a criticism. Apparently I was mistaken, and rather than wanting people to stop talking about theirs, you actually wanted to exchange opinions. My mistake.

Don't make faces.

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 9:43 PM

OOKAMIKAWAHARA

Zoid, you ever been done debate class? I swear your sounding like my brother almost lol. He ended up taking to yrs during High school if I remeber correctly. Anyways just a quick wave from Japan. Thanks everyone for posting the lines of the poem and stimilating conversation / thoughts. As for my own opinions, well we`ll leave those for another time. Anyways keep flyen and stay shiny.

mata, Ookami yori

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Tuesday, April 3, 2007 11:29 PM

ZOID

marina wrote:

Quote:
I think you misunderstood me, which I apologize for. I also think I misunderstood your earlier post, which I mentioned to you.

However, I did want to clarify that I don't actually HAVE an opinion on this (nor has the concept of "winning" anything entered my mind - this isn't a competition, and if it were, this wouldn't be the one I'd spend my time on). There have been a lot of snarky posters lately shooting others down, and for some reason I read your comment about others reading too much into it as a criticism. Apparently I was mistaken, and rather than wanting people to stop talking about theirs, you actually wanted to exchange opinions. My mistake.

Apology accepted; forgiven and all offenses forgotten. Understanding is all I seek.

I've reread my posts on this thread and detect no 'snarkiness' on my part. Disagreement, yes; but without denigrating the opinions of others. I do, however, completely understand your instinct to protect others, since I myself have done the same on numerous occasions on these boards. Some folks aren't 'happy' unless they are making others feel bad about themselves. What that says about these miscreants is unsettling; but I personally usually wait until they have called others 'dumb', 'stupid', or 'cattle'/'sheep'/other type of non-human animal before I go off on 'em.

Please accept my offer of unconditional peace between us.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
...And good luck in S. Korea. Keep safe and well. I'm sure you'll find much to learn from and love about that ancient civilization.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 12:02 AM

ZOID

Ookamikawahara wrote:

Quote:
Zoid, you ever been done debate class? I swear your sounding like my brother almost lol. He ended up taking to yrs during High school if I remeber correctly. Anyways just a quick wave from Japan. Thanks everyone for posting the lines of the poem and stimilating conversation / thoughts. As for my own opinions, well we`ll leave those for another time. Anyways keep flyen and stay shiny.

mata, Ookami yori

*zoid faces West and waves back, causing total strangers in the Barnes & Noble to look strangely at him*

Debate (forensics) was more rewarding than chess, which I became disinterested in when it became clear to me that chess was nothing more than mental warfare, with nothing to be gained. Debate can be warfare, too; but I prefer it when it is a synthesis of minds, weighing a subject's pros and cons. In that way, everyone -- participants and audience alike -- comes away enriched by the exercise.

Alas, too many times people hear the terms 'debate' or 'argument' and immediately affix negative connotations to them. But true debate is not threatening to punch someone you disagree with, and a true argument is not a shouting match. Rather, an argument is "the advancement by each side of facts and reasons intended to persuade the other side". ...And I'm not even particularly fond of that definition, because as I said, I don't care to persuade others, particularly. I simply seek Understanding of everything my mind comes in contact with. Anything short of that is a disappointment.

One of the many beauties of debate is that it teaches one to truly listen to what others are saying, in order to be an effective participant. Too many times in this increasingly self-absorbed world we live in, we hear but fail to listen to others, wouldn't you agree? That failure is the source of all enmity, on an interpersonal and international level.

...ummm... so, yeah. I like debate.

And I participated in this thread because I found its premise debatable, by which I mean, 'worthy of a complete examination'. I do hope folks will carry on with that exercise...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Have a beautiful day, Ookami-san
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Wednesday, April 4, 2007 9:31 PM

OOKAMIKAWAHARA

Hey Zoid,
Thanks for the mail and the wave! Always fun to be hanging around in Barns and Noble! Yeah I actually helped teach a debate class once well working as a sub. Not to mention my own college training was in International Studies ie read Poli Sci major. So I`ve done a far bit of structured arguments and presenting cases as well lol. Model U.N. is one of the funnist one. Where else can you represent a country that lies, cheats, commits gross violations of human rights and yet can get a good many other countries to follow their lead. (No I`m not pointing the figure at any one country here, look at every country and its got a crappy record on some issue lol) I think it was Book that said Goverments are made up of people noteablely ungoverned etc. Anyways continue thrilling sides of said conversation. I liked how the full text was added in and everyones interepation of it. Anyways this is eating up net cafe time so I will talk with ya later.
mata, Ookami yori

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Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:09 AM

ZOID

Ookamikawahara replied, in part:

Quote:
...Not to mention my own college training was in International Studies ie read Poli Sci major. ...

Me too.

But fairly early on, I realized that Pol Sci = Chess. Unlike "War Games" WOPR, however, I came to the conclusion that chess is ultimately a zero sum game, too; tic-tac-toe, just on a more finely grained, broader scale. When played by skilled practitioners, Politics -- as with chess -- becomes a war of attrition, with the needs and goals of the common people as the pawns. In politics, too much is sacrificed by the front rank, in order to keep the 'nobles' out of jeopardy. Rather than drawing out a bloody war of political attrition to its inevitable total destruction, wouldn't it be nice if the 'kings' (read: 'heads of state' or 'majority/minority leaders') stood alone on the battlefield and bloodied only themselves for a change?

Ergo, WOPR's conclusion was illogical. Chess (and by analogy, Politics) is the most devastating of all war games. How about a nice game of Global Thermonuclear War, instead? At least it's a quick and humane death. Just save me a seat at ground zero, please...

So I concentrated instead on logic, cultural anthropology and literature, and let the politicians (which, by then, I knew myself not to be) take care of 'governance' and 'international law', whatever the hell that is. In other words, had I written WOPR's lines, it would have asked, (vocorder) "How about a nice game of Chaucer?" (/vocorder)

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
They say that within a certain radius of an atomic blast, any exposed lifeform is instantaneously vaporized. Or as we used to say in the 70's: "Beam me up Scottie. There's no intelligent life on this planet."

P.P.S.
Since we seem to have run out of steam on The Rime take, anyone care to venture which Canterbury Tales characters most resemble our BDH's (and whether or not Joss intended them to)?
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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