Is Science Fiction inherently anti-establishment? by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by StrangeBird:
Is Science Fiction inherently anti-establishment?

No. But I think the majority of the writers and creators are so it shines through. But Inherently... no.

But if the majority of writers are, then can it not be said that it IS inherently anti-E?
How many SF stories & movies & stuff portray a bright, positive, happy technological future, free from hatred & stupid politics?
Isn't SF mostly all about cautionary tales?

(?)Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 7:31 AM

Ahhhhh- CHOOO(bump)

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:10 AM

LEOPARDFLAN

I would say that good sci-fi is inherently anti-establishment, because having something wrong with the govn't (or just having the govn't after the main guy), is part of what helps suck us into the world of the book (movie, etc.). Sure, there might be some utopia books or flicks out there, but who's gonna like them? There needs to be a problem in the works somewhere, or otherwise it's just bubble-fluff, and I don't think alot of the sci-fi readers/watchers like reading/watching bubble-fluff.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:27 AM

MAL4PREZ

Ummm... I think anti-E is an inherent, undeniable part of SF because that's what I personally like in my SF.

OK - better answer. I think criticizing the establishment through sci-fi is the safest way to do it, and making a social or political messgae entertaining is like sugar-coating a pill. So it makes sense that SF is so often anti-E, but there's no rule about it.

How about Asimov's Foundation series? That seemed pretty "up with the organized government."

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:15 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

How about Asimov's Foundation series? That seemed pretty "up with the organized government."

M4P pretty much made my point. It kinda depends on how you define science fiction. Film, probably so. But old style SF, ya know, the stuff that was actually written on paper, and intended to be read, ( the stuff that IMHO, was REAL SF.) wasn't necessarily.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:54 AM

STRANGEBIRD

I'll counter all that with this.

If non anti-est Scifi does indeed exist then doesn't that make scifi NOT inherently anti-est?

Just making that statement for the sake of all arguments being presented. I'm really not sure myself and I'm sorta leaning towards current Scifi being anti-est by nature -current meaning the past few decades-. Fantasy though would also have to fall into the same fold.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I think criticizing the establishment through sci-fi is the safest way to do it, and making a social or political message entertaining is like sugar-coating a pill.

And now that I think about it, Trek's utopian future is directly commenting on our messed-up present- that's why so many peeps like DS9, or BSG, they're less threatening to us now. "Oh hey- they're just as f***ed up as we are! Cool."

Troublemaker Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Let's see...Firefly/Serenity is, IMO.
Dark Angel? Definitely.
Stargate & Atlantis...well, generally they're establishment-friendly, but they do have their criticizing moments...
Heroes? Well, super-peeps have to save the world from terrorists within the halls of power, so I guess so.
Battlestar Galactica? Mutiny, insurrection, disobeying orders, relying on the military...kind of a mixed bag there.
Buffy? Well, the whole Initiative thing...yeah.
Sarah Connor Chronicles? Well, Skynet, so, uh-huh.
Supernatural? I don't see it there, it's mostly anti-ethereal evil as far as I can tell.
Star Trek...again, a mixed bag- the Federation can be cool or not, depending on the scripts.

Movies like Blade Runner, Gattica, Planet Of The Apes, Silent Running, Logan's Run, The Island, Terminator, Aliens, Omega Man/I Am Legend, Escape From NY/LA, Equilibrium, oh, hell yes.

Armageddon is about the only establishment-friendly SF flick I can even think of right now...

Thoughts?

Well, I think you’ve answer your own question. No, science fiction is not inherently anti-establishment. Certainly, the theme exists and is fairly widely employed, but that doesn’t make it a property of science fiction.

Star Trek is pretty pro-establishment. In fact, it’s so pro-establishment that it often seems to purport statism and militarism as a solution to societies problems.

Firefly is pretty anti-establishment. That’s kind of it’s whole raison d'état.

Stargate and Atlantis are also pretty pro-establishment.

BSG and Heroes are complicated. I’d have a hard time labeling either one way or the other. BSG certainly deals with the idea of establishment; it seems to center around battling between the pro- and anti- sides of the coin.

Dark Angel certainly has anti-establishment themes, but it’s much more post-apocalyptic, then anti-establishment. And in the end Max demonstrates that what she and the other transgens are after is in fact an established order.

Buffy is totally pro-establishment. Although it uses anti-establishment themes (including the teen-angst rail against the machine stuff), as a whole it is not possible to get beyond the fact that Buffy is an agent that protects, defends and preserves the established order.

Omega Man was certainly anti-establishment. The book was more complex - was it really anti-establishment or just pro-establishment for an establishment that was different from what we expected?

Planet of the Apes - anti-establishment.

Starship Troopers totally pro-establishment.

Armageddon was kind of anti-establishment, but you could probably argue it both ways, since it’s really somewhat moot in this case.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Starship Troopers totally pro-establishment.

Really? I kinda saw it as poking at it for where it inevitably goes in times of war...the movie, at least.

And Dark Angel was LOADED with anti-E...I'm just goin' through again now, and the sneering and resentment of a system that that thought so highly of itself, yet allowed itself to be taken down so easily and replaced by near-fascist martial law, the endless Republican/Reagan jokes, the whole Transgenic/prejudice thing, even pokes at the Liberal mentality- they all scream it to me.

The Anti-Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Starship Troopers totally pro-establishment.

Really? I kinda saw it as poking at it for where it inevitably goes in times of war...the movie, at least.

Well, the movie dumbed down many things. Movies do that, but if you read the book, you’d see that was all supposed to be taken literally.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Dark Angel was LOADED with anti-E...I'm just goin' through again now, and the sneering and resentment of a system that that thought so highly of itself, yet allowed itself to be taken down so easily and replaced by near-fascist martial law, the endless Republican/Reagan jokes, the whole Transgenic/prejudice thing, even pokes at the Liberal mentality- they all scream it to me.

I didn’t say the anti-establishment theme wasn’t there, but it was a post-apocalyptic theme. It’s not the same thing.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:58 PM

CYBERSNARK

Well, the main strength of sci-fi as a genre is that it can broach subjects that the mainstream media isn't allowed to touch (sexism, racism, gender politics, religion, terrorism, drugs, etc).

Similarly, science fiction writers tend to be grown-up geeks. The "Establishment" is generally made up of the people who beat us up, stuffed us into lockers, and stole all the girls (or guys, whichever) in high school. It makes sense that we'd lash out against it/them.

This doesn't necessarily mean that all (or even most) sci-fi is trying to blatantly undermine "our" values (as some ultra-Conservatives have accused it of doing). Often it just means that sci-fi is mainly interested in the "liminal" areas where the Rules don't always apply.

Often, it presents a "better" establishment (as in Star Trek [an intellectual meritocracy, ruled by the virtues of compassion, mercy, nobility, and intelligence --four of the most hated concepts in the modern world], Starship Troopers [which was initially a vehicle for Heinlein's own political ideals --not unlike a post-modern retelling of Macchiavelli's The Prince], or Stargate [a military conspiracy that is neither corrupt nor malevolent --that is, in fact, exactly what the military/industrial complex as a whole should be]).

It's the geeks and nerds that get to grow up to be James Kirk, John Crichton, or Daniel Jackson.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

It's the geeks and nerds that get to grow up to be James Kirk, John Crichton, or Daniel Jackson.

Or John Sheppard...

Shepisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:42 AM

erm, no. But Sci-fi is a reflection of the times and pressures, the original Star Trek was quite progressive having a female (and black too!) bridge officer (in fact the female officer used to be the first officer in the pilot, the studio didn't like that). It had a Russian bridge officer because of the cold war, it's packed full of social commentary on the sixties. You may be able to find a lot of anti-establishment sentiment in sci-fi, because there is always something the establishment is currently doing that requires comment.

But integral? Not at all, perhaps American made TV, but American made TV is aimed at an American audience, an audience that largely thrives on distrust of the government ;). You have filters of your own chris, I don't see any particular anti-establishment leanings in the Terminator universe, for instance. Folly with technology, which is perhaps more a cold war M.A.D. commentary, but nothing specific to the establishment.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Often, it presents a "better" establishment (as in Star Trek [an intellectual meritocracy, ruled by the virtues of compassion, mercy, nobility, and intelligence --four of the most hated concepts in the modern world], Starship Troopers [which was initially a vehicle for Heinlein's own political ideals --not unlike a post-modern retelling of Macchiavelli's The Prince], or Stargate [a military conspiracy that is neither corrupt nor malevolent --that is, in fact, exactly what the military/industrial complex as a whole should be]).

Err, Starship Troopers? Starship Troopers was a tacit fascist state, controlled through careful pruning of the electorate. It presented a military dictatorship, with a facade of democracy, I don't characterise that as "better" either in intent or design, it's a warning.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Err, Starship Troopers? Starship Troopers was a tacit fascist state, controlled through careful pruning of the electorate. It presented a military dictatorship, with a facade of democracy, I don't characterise that as "better" either in intent or design, it's a warning.

There’s no warning. The fascist ideology is not presented in Starship Troopers as a dystopic society, but indeed as a “better“ society. You may not agree that this would be the case, but that is certainly the intent in the story.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
There’s no warning. The fascist ideology is not presented in Starship Troopers as a dystopic society, but indeed as a “better“ society. You may not agree that this would be the case, but that is certainly the intent in the story.

I don't think its presented as better, the characters think it's better, but go ask a Gestapo official what he thinks of nazism.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You have filters of your own chris, I don't see any particular anti-establishment leanings in the Terminator universe, for instance.

Well, the 'Establishment' in the movies embraced the creation of Skynet- isn't that a slam on the computer-dependent culture we have?

Computers are evil Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
There’s no warning. The fascist ideology is not presented in Starship Troopers as a dystopic society, but indeed as a “better“ society. You may not agree that this would be the case, but that is certainly the intent in the story.
I don't think its presented as better, the characters think it's better, but go ask a Gestapo official what he thinks of nazism.

First of all, I don’t really think you understand the book. The fascist ideology presented in Starship Troopers is nothing like Nazism or for that matter like Italian or Spanish Fascism. It may technically be a form of fascism, but it is not a diastopic society. Now one can argue that such a society is impossible, but there is no doubt that it is being presented in Starship Troopers as a “better” society.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
There’s no warning. The fascist ideology is not presented in Starship Troopers as a dystopic society, but indeed as a “better“ society.

WHAT????
It was CLEARLY a warning of the "You want THIS future?" variety (in the movie). It was also commenting (ahead of time) about making a virtual religion of hating the enemy.
I would NOT want to live in that world, and I can't believe that you would either.

Bugsisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It was CLEARLY a warning of the "You want THIS future?" variety (in the movie). It was also commenting (ahead of time) about making a virtual religion of hating the enemy.
I would NOT want to live in that world, and I can't believe that you would either.

Actually, I wouldn’t mind at all living in that society - sans the giants bugs. Like all utopias, it would be a wonderful place to live by definition, but I don’t believe it’s actually possible. In fact, as a child, when I was still silly enough to think such things might be possible, I used to imagine myself living in the “Star Trek” type utopias.

I was quite the Trekkie for that very reason I think.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Actually, I wouldn’t mind at all living in that society - sans the giants bugs.

One thing I liked about that movie was the way they portrayed it as a working society- not the "Fascism leads to Hitler" thing. Still, I found it more than a bit stifling, which I think we were meant to.

Gimme the Trek life Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Actually, I wouldn’t mind at all living in that society - sans the giants bugs.
One thing I liked about that movie was the way they portrayed it as a working society- not the "Fascism leads to Hitler" thing. Still, I found it more than a bit stifling, which I think we were meant to.

I think the movie played on a lot fascist imagery, which in the real world, as it turns out, is quite stifling, but in the imaginary world of Heinlein, it was a liberal society with a freely elected government - the only requirement in the society was that people had to play a part in that society in order for their vote to count. And ideologically, I find that to be a very satisfying premise - although it may present problems in practice.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
First of all, I don’t really think you understand the book.

Or maybe you didn't. Just because I didn't get from it what you evidently did, doesn't mean I didn't get it and you did.

Quote:
The fascist ideology presented in Starship Troopers is nothing like Nazism or for that matter like Italian or Spanish Fascism. It may technically be a form of fascism, but it is not a diastopic society.

Erm, when did I say it was like Nazism? Oh, yeah, I didn't. What I said was that the characters being pro society, doesn't mean anything, because they would be. Just like a gestapo officer would be pro Nazism, but that doesn't mean a book with a pro-Nazi gestapo officer, would be pro Nazi.

Last year I read a book by Ben Elton on the First World War. At the time, most people were pro-war, it was a conflict fought off of nationalism at its height. But Ben Elton doesn't like the war, so the main character is more Ben Elton transplanted into then, than a man of the time. The point is that it's the opposite of the above, the main character is openly anti-war, in a way that is highly unlikely, and it feels clunky and unrealistic.

Quote:
Now one can argue that such a society is impossible, but there is no doubt that it is being presented in Starship Troopers as a “better” society.

But is Joss Whedon's portrayal of Inara pro-prostitution?

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:45 AM

I still don't think you understood the book.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I still don't think you understood the book.

I still don't think you understood my post.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
it was a liberal society with a freely elected government - the only requirement in the society was that people had to play a part in that society in order for their vote to count. And ideologically, I find that to be a very satisfying premise

Well, book wise, I see no problem with that, I'm just sayin' I think the movie was more from Verhoeven's anti-Fascist POV.

Nazi-like Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
But is Joss Whedon's portrayal of Inara pro-prostitution?

No, I take it as anti-regulation...

My filter is interfering Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
it was a liberal society with a freely elected government - the only requirement in the society was that people had to play a part in that society in order for their vote to count. And ideologically, I find that to be a very satisfying premise
Well, book wise, I see no problem with that, I'm just sayin' I think the movie was more from Verhoeven's anti-Fascist POV.

That’s probably true. But even in the movie, you really have to look for the dystopic side. It's more of a feeling then a direct issue. If you didn't know anything about Nazism or Nazi propaganda, would you really find something dystopic about the settings? Maybe it falls more into the Armageddon camp, where it's not clear which side of the establishment coin it falls on.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well, the 'Establishment' in the movies embraced the creation of Skynet- isn't that a slam on the computer-dependent culture we have?

Computers are evil Chrisisall

I think its more technophobia built on top of the M.A.D. principle. Skynet is a convenient vehicle for the technophobia, the Government is about the only entity that could really put it in too being. Though a great deal of the Sarah Connor Chronicles is suggestive that an individual created at least the basis for skynet (the turk)...

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
But is Joss Whedon's portrayal of Inara pro-prostitution?
No, I take it as anti-regulation...

I would say it's pro-prostitution. It's kind of hard to avoid the fact that Inara is a effectively a high-class hooker.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s probably true. But even in the movie, you really have to look for the dystopic side. It's more of a feeling then a direct issue. If you didn't know anything about Nazism or Nazi propaganda, would you really find something dystopic about the settings? Maybe it falls more into the Armageddon camp, where it's not clear which side of the establishment coin it falls on.

The movie always caught me as more of a parody of fascism, actually. And yes, if you knew nothing about Nazism, I think a certain amount of that would come off.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If you didn't know anything about Nazism or Nazi propaganda, would you really find something dystopic about the settings?

There was something unsettling about the way when the Sarge got a bullet in his eye, it was more of a fuss about the accident itself, than the death of a good man...or maybe that's just how I saw it. It spoke to me about a culture where we weren't all that much better than bugs ourselves- the 'hive' was more important than the individual.

Dystopic Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It's kind of hard to avoid the fact that Inara is a effectively a high-class hooker.

Prostitution is like boxing; ya got yer big-money championships, & yer back alley bare-knuckle bouts.

Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:12 AM

I'm not sure how a show can be considered pro something merely because it portrays it.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I'm not sure how a show can be considered pro something merely because it portrays it.

If anything, I think Joss intended to portray whores & Companions as people, not just playthings, although Jayne would probably go with the playthings more...

I'm in Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I'm not sure how a show can be considered pro something merely because it portrays it.

If anything, I think Joss intended to portray whores & Companions as people, not just playthings, although Jayne would probably go with the playthings more...

I think your anti-regulation theme was more on target with the pro-prostitution thing.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:52 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Transformers - Totally Establishment !

Independence Day - Certainly !

Armageddon - yup!

The Island - Anti

iRobot - Anti

THX1138 - Anti

Silent Running - Anti

Stargate - Yes

Starship Troopers - Anti

Minority Report - Anti

Total Recall - Anti

The Matrix - who the hell knows?!

Supernatural - Anti

Residnet Evil - Anti

Heroes - Depends where the end up with it.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 12:07 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
If anything, I think Joss intended to portray whores & Companions as people, not just playthings, although Jayne would probably go with the playthings more...

Thing with Firefly is that all the characters have their conflicting counterparts. Inara is the counterpoint to Mal and vice versa. Likewise Jayne and Book. Wash and Zoe etc... I don't read it as being so clear cut as pro or against. It's set up to cloud the issue, to cause the viewer to at least consider both arguments. To sympathize with either character depending on the circumstance. To 'un' generalize and to regard people as individual irrespective of their occupation.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 12:11 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
it was a liberal society with a freely elected government - the only requirement in the society was that people had to play a part in that society in order for their vote to count. And ideologically, I find that to be a very satisfying premise

Well, book wise, I see no problem with that, I'm just sayin' I think the movie was more from Verhoeven's anti-Fascist POV.

Chris, you really need to read Starship Troopers one of these days. However, if you end up liking the movie more than the book I'm afraid I'll have to stop talking to you altogether.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
if you end up liking the movie more than the book

I'm certain that will not be the case. And I will get around to it.

Trooper Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

The Matrix - who the hell knows?!

Oh, ABSOLUTELY anti.
We're gonna eff the world so bad AND create the machines that dominate & use us...

We are a plague Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:44 PM

34CYGNI

Virtually all fiction, or at least works of fiction worth reading or viewing, are anti-establishment for the simple reason that it makes for interesting characters and plots. As an author or artist, one gravitates to outsiders because that's where the action is, literally and figuratively. People who are satisfied with the status quo rarely give rise to compelling drama, except perhaps as foils for a protagonist.

Moreover, one cannot seriously contend that "the establishment" is a Good Thing because it is manifestly clear to everyone that the system -- whatever that might be: communist, capitalist, freewheelingly democratic, or rigidly authoritarian -- doesn't work particularly well. (...As Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government ever conceived, barring all the others we've tried.) It is difficult, to say the least, to muster a morally sound defense of a state which represses its own citizens or leaves millions of them wallowing in ignorance and poverty, let alone one which does both at the same time, and there is a word for literature which endeavors to do so: propaganda.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 34cygni:
there is a word for literature which endeavors to do so: propaganda.

Wow- give it up for 34cygni!!! Excellent post, my man!

Words fail Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 5:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 34cygni:
It is difficult, to say the least, to muster a morally sound defense of a state which represses its own citizens or leaves millions of them wallowing in ignorance and poverty, let alone one which does both at the same time, and there is a word for literature which endeavors to do so: propaganda.

I would contend that propaganda goes both ways. What you seem to be arguing is that the “establishment” is always a bad thing - which could be considered as much propaganda as arguing the opposite. In fact, that could easily be viewed as Left-wing propaganda.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 5:24 PM