What does the future hold for Firefly fandom? by Haken

I'm assuming Zeek is taking the historic perspective here.

I'd say what the future holds for our fandom depends largely on whether something happens with the apparent deadlock between Universal Studios and Fox Television over new types of franchise material after 2012, when Fox no longer owns the rights to Firefly. I'm hoping the answer is lots!

Video game, cartoon, live action, maybe even a reboot, if that's the only way we can have more. Though I think I'd like a cartoon voiced by our favourite actors more than a reboot, but if there's no other options, I'm sure I could love that too.

Meanwhile, the fandom numbers will continue to grow via recommendations, and firefly fans will have two new comic books coming out sometime in the next two years.

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
At "Still Flying", there are 7 Scripts for season 1 of Firefly and 22 Scripts for season 2 www.stillflying.net/?page=seasons

Thanks for including us! We're going to be giving you guys the start of Season Three later this year.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, March 12, 2010 10:24 PM

REENACT12321

I think the answer is simple. Keep flying.

Keep telling your friends. Try to get people together to watch the movie and (for all you Fox representatives) Get them to BUY and not share the season DVD's or anything like that

lol

Attend the conventions, and if we can keep Joss from letting the dream die. He's been beaten up at every turn lately with Dollhouse, and I'm sure keep encouraging the entire effort. Joss is Boss.

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Friday, March 12, 2010 11:29 PM

OLDGUY

What Would Mal do ?

this thread speaks for itself in one important way...IT'S NOT JUST TELEVISION ANYMORE!!

execs at Fox and all the other channel dwellers best be waking up and realize that the entertainment industry is growing far beyond their domain. It used to be that parents worried that their kids spent 8 times as many hours in front of the boob toob as they spent with their family...now kids are spending 12 times as many hours inside Halo as they do in front of traditional broadcast programming.

Someone like Joss and the many talents that exist in his universe will adapt their creations to this new world. I mentioned in the "what sci-fi show would make a good vid game thread" that Joss could create story line premise, run actual footage of our favorite crew and verse and let the foundation of the video game take on a life of it's own with cloud players engaging the verse...buying their own ships or staking claim in some lil moon...interacting in some cases with only hear-say about a firefly class rogue ship...in other cases actually meeting and interacting live online...it's the greatest role play (sorry..RPG) yet to be!...and the result is a product/story greater than any 40 min script offered up in a weekly timeslot.
money to be made with market vendors learning how to impose their products into the verse..figure out ways for players to earn/spend those pirateering credits on real bottles of pepsi and a pair of Red Dot sneakers (run faster jump higher..)
Developers of new movie SFX will love having this venue to create and test long before taking things to the big screen and when things do go to theater...the fan base will be beyond rabid!

There's a whole brave new world out there..waaaay larger than any one television season and when it comes...Foxx and other execs are gonna find themselves sittin in the dark.

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Friday, March 12, 2010 11:59 PM

Quote:

Would you be able to answer: What does the future hold for Firefly fandom?

Well, since the FOX/Universal deadlock isn't likely to go away any time soon, nothing, unless fans actually start doing something and FOX/Universal don't kill it. There's Redemption around the corner, and some announced comics (for those that like that kind of thing) but other than that, pretty much nothing.

In other words, we either become self-sustaining, or die. There really isn't any inbetween.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, March 13, 2010 3:52 AM

We've been self-sustaining pretty much since 2002. Why should that change now?

And why the dig at comics? Most of the SERENITY comics have been written by the same folk who wrote the show. They read just like "lost episodes." Given that many of the cast members have moved on to other projects, it seems to be that a medium like comics or novels is the only way that story of the crew of Serenity will continue in the near future.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:27 AM

I guess two years feels a lot different to people who've already been waiting five years... or even seven years, if they weren't satisfied by the movie (or comic books).

Still, two years isn't THAT long a time... And besides, there wouldn't even be a deadlock if there wasn't still interest in the franchise on both the part of Fox and Universal, which I take as a good sign that eventually something has to happen.

We've got more than announcements for the comic books, BTW, we FINALLY have announcements for writers and artists. So, that's moving. I think Joss has started to recover from the inevitable post Dollhouse funk / production-editing exhaustion, so other projects are getting some attention and the go ahead.

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Saturday, March 13, 2010 10:59 AM

LEMMING

Just wanted to make a minor correction to the pretty gorram comprehensive info listed.

[EDIT NOTE: this correction now moot 'cos Two kindly corrected the original post. Thanks.]

The Signal podcast is *not* USA based. It is hosted by 2 United States citizens, but the crew is and always has been international (it was in fact founded by a Brit - Jill Arroway if you want to get technical, though I'm sure she'd never lay claim - it was always a group effort :-)

We very conciously think of ourselves as international, as that is what the Browncoat fandom is (and again, nearly always has been - several preview screenings of Serenity and the world premier took place in the UK: Browncoats span the globe!) Current Signal crew (and we're in our *6th* year) has several Americans, 4 Brits - one of whom is based in Tanzania, Africa - and one German.

I think the future is very good for Browncoats as has been already noted. We are self sustaining now and numbers continue to grow. We will have new *canon* content from Joss this year (8 years on from Firefly and 5 from Serenity) in the form of Shepherds Tale and Float Out from Dark Horse, there's Redemption, Courage, Bellflower and more fan films/series at various stages of production and...dead...don't make me laugh :-) We're still here and will be a for a long time to come.

Nick

The Signal

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Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:17 AM

TDBROWN

Here's something thats going to happen within the Fandom this Fall. It ties into Browncoats: Redemption and the upcoming 5th Sereniversary (Birthday of the BDM).

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=383429540585

The Fandom has to go "grassroots" while we wait for more Official-type stuff. The key word in the initial post is "Hold". We hold until they (the Whedonesque PTB) come back.

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Saturday, March 13, 2010 4:31 PM

11THHOUR

Quote:
What does the future hold for Firefly fandom?

The fandom is us, so it will take the shape we make of it. Part of what shapes the fandom is the interaction with what is going on in the official world, and the rest is what we create on our own.

The fandom of a property that is in a kind of semi-active official status is kind of like being pioneers. When there aren't many cities or towns to inhabit, we embark upon the wilderness and make our own worlds.

Kinda like Firefly itself...

11th Hour

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart

Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

We've been self-sustaining pretty much since 2002. Why should that change now?

If we have been self-sustaining, then please show me the massive amount of works generated by the community. Please show the increase in the number of fans. Point of fact, you can do neither. No-one can. The fandom is dying.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

And why the dig at comics? Most of the SERENITY comics have been written by the same folk who wrote the show. They read just like "lost episodes."

Then why couldn't I get more than a few pages into the first comic because of tragically poor writing? Opinion is not fact. There are many more people like me than you seem to think, that think that the comics suck.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Given that many of the cast members have moved on to other projects, it seems to be that a medium like comics or novels is the only way that story of the crew of Serenity will continue in the near future.

Your point?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Still, two years isn't THAT long a time... And besides, there wouldn't even be a deadlock if there wasn't still interest in the franchise on both the part of Fox and Universal, which I take as a good sign that eventually something has to happen.

The interest is not the interest that you think it is. What is really going on is one won't let the other profit without them getting a cut as well. Then they argue over which one has the bigger share in an effort to get more money than the other. This ends in deadlock and will kill any project.

It's about interest in money, not interest in the franchise. They don't care where the money comes from.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

We've got more than announcements for the comic books, BTW, we FINALLY have announcements for writers and artists. So, that's moving. I think Joss has started to recover from the inevitable post Dollhouse funk / production-editing exhaustion, so other projects are getting some attention and the go ahead.

But not new projects. Just signs that the old announcements are going somewhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
If we have been self-sustaining, then please show me the massive amount of works generated by the community.

As exhibit A, I point to SERENITY, a movie which Joss himself has stated would never have been made without the fans.

2010 will give us roleplaying supplements, comic books, and "Firefly: Still Flying: A Celebration of Joss Whedon's Acclaimed TV Series," a book which will contain all-new short stories. These official products would not exist without the support of a fan base to purchase them.

In terms of fan-created content, look to the Blue Sun Room and elsewhere. Look the projects like REDEMPTION and COURAGE. The project I'm a part of, www.stillflying.net, has (post-SERENITY) produced 29 episode-length scripts. That's about 1500 pages of FIREFLY (or, to put it another way, almost twice as much as Joss and his gang did).

Quote:
Please show the increase in the number of fans. Point of fact, you can do neither. No-one can. The fandom is dying.

That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Perhaps the most visible portion of the fanbase seems to be decreasing, but there are more fans every day.

Not a week goes by that there's not a new thread from someone who has just discovered FIREFLY posted in these very forums, and there are still consistent tales from long-time fans who've turned new people onto it.

The FIREFLY DVD is currently #27 in sales on Amazon in the category of Movies & TV. It has been in the top 100 for more than a year (consecutive). It is further rated #2 in Boxed Sets/Drama and Drama/Television. There's no other TV series with close to that accomplishment, and much of the competition has the benefit of not having been cancelled 7 and a half years ago.

Quote:
Then why couldn't I get more than a few pages into the first comic because of tragically poor writing?

I can't really speak to why you didn't like the comic, but if I had to speculate on an answer, I would posit that perhaps you have some bias against the medium and perhaps consider it a "lesser" form.

Quote:
Opinion is not fact.

You are correct. Here is fact for you: SERENITY: THOSE LEFT BEHIND was Dark Horse's bestselling title in 2005. Among other things that it beat out where multiple Star Wars titles (in the year that REVENGE OF THE SITH was released). Further, it is of note that Star Wars- and Conan-themed titles are typically Dark Horse's bestselling titles (by a pretty large margin, I believe).

It is my understanding that BETTER DAYS had similar sales (and, actually a better critical and fan reception).

Quote:
There are many more people like me than you seem to think, that think that the comics suck.

Opinion, as someone once said, is not fact.

Both TPBs are currently rated 4 stars on Amazon. Between the two, only 1 person rated only 1 star.

Quote:
Your point?

If you're one of those people who is holding his breath for the series to return, you are sure to be disappointed. Same thing with a movie, most likely.

In the foreseeable future, the canon of the Firefly 'Verse is likely to flourish only in alternate media.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But not new projects. Just signs that the old announcements are going somewhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The announcement of SERENITY: FLOATOUT is brand new from the past week or so. I don't think anyone had heard of it before.

Although STILL FLYING was announced last year, the fact that it will contain all-new short stories written by some of the series writers is a relatively new wrinkle. I believe word came after announcement of DOLLHOUSE's cancellation.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 3:15 AM

TUJIAOZUO

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:
Please show the increase in the number of fans. Point of fact, you can do neither. No-one can. The fandom is dying.

That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Perhaps the most visible portion of the fanbase seems to be decreasing, but there are more fans every day.

Not a week goes by that there's not a new thread from someone who has just discovered FIREFLY posted in these very forums, and there are still consistent tales from long-time fans who've turned new people onto it.

The FIREFLY DVD is currently #27 in sales on Amazon in the category of Movies & TV. It has been in the top 100 for more than a year (consecutive). It is further rated #2 in Boxed Sets/Drama and Drama/Television. There's no other TV series with close to that accomplishment, and much of the competition has the benefit of not having been cancelled 7 and a half years ago.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

From where I stand, we're growing.

My extremely large art college just had a Firefly/Serenity Marathon a few weeks ago. Unfortunately I couldn't go because I was out of town. Never seen a marathon listed before as a campus activity, EVER. But there were fliers of the Firfely DVD box art all over my building and in a few places on some of our class buildings. It was the most surreal thing ever. We get to watch Oscar Nominated movies for free on a regular basis. But then all of a sudden here's a flier to watch this little sci-fi show.

There are new fans constantly being pulled in. I have 2 box sets that go around my dorm on a regular basis. We're talking young people that love to follow franchises and buy merchandise.
Just a few days ago a friend was watching Serenity in my room as I listened/rendered. Another buddy came in, immediately making his way to my monitor. He proclaimed how he watched all of my DVDs in one sitting, then the movie and proceeded to gripe at how the show needs to get back on the air and how he's so buying a Blue Sun shirt. After watching the movie (his second time in 2 days) and playing with my Serenity ornament, he left my room with both of my lender comics. The other friend grabbed my second box set of the show after that, because he had only seen the movie and wanted to know why the show is 10x better.

New people are finding the show, yeah my area of the world is small, but I'm optimistic.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 3:29 AM

STINKINGROSE

Maybe in 2012 the shows everyone's been so busy on will have taken their final bows, and they'll be available at just the right time, and have new and shiny friends they've been working with they can bring along to play.

(Couldn't you just see Elisa as YoSafBridge's even crazier big sister who runs a House? But I digress..)

Stranger things have happened. I'm in a holding pattern and so long as the protein doesn't run out I'm happy to be on the ship, gas or no.

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:19 AM

Quote:

The interest is not the interest that you think it is. What is really going on is one won't let the other profit without them getting a cut as well. Then they argue over which one has the bigger share in an effort to get more money than the other. This ends in deadlock and will kill any project.

It's about interest in money, not interest in the franchise. They don't care where the money comes from.

Well, yeah. They're executives. Of course the money is all they care about.

But this indicates there's money in the franchise, which mean both still consider it a valuable property. And in 2012, the deadlock ceases to be a deadlock.

Quote:

But not new projects. Just signs that the old announcements are going somewhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Granted, though I add that the Wash comic book is going to be the first story set AFTER the movie, so in a sense even though the project has been around for a while, technically it's something new.

EDIT: Oh, right, I forgot the official short stories in Still Flying.

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:32 AM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
The fandom is dying.

If you really feel that way what are you still doing here? Read back through this thread and tell me that everything others have said indicates there is no activity or product being generated by the fans. You can't. It's just your opinion, and your opinion is wrong.

Go to DragonCon this year and witness the Browncoat march and the reception that "Redemption" receives. I'm not sure when "Courage" will be ready, but I expect it to generate the same amount of interest.

I recently introduced the series to a cousin of mine. She's about 65, very conservative and religious, and not normally an SF fan. She and her husband both loved it and then asked, "Didn't you say there was a movie too?" She's even started watching Castle because she thinks Nathan is great.

And don't forget my signature line, which is Mandarin for "We're still flying!"

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:44 AM

SUASOR

Those of us who are here are not part of the problem. But the Browncoat fandom is burning somewhat less brightly. Look at the sales of the DVDs on Amazon. Way down from a few years ago. SerenityMovie.net is dead in the water, and other Firefly centric sites have disappeared. One of the big podcasts (Firefly Talk) has been silent for 16 months. They won a big award in 2007, and put out 65 great podcasts. But the buzz is getting quieter and less intense.

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 11:03 AM

LESSISMORE

I surely am not an expert, but, here is what I think. Mr. Joss kind of summed it up himself shortly after the BDM. He noted that the movie gave the 'Verse "legs." It stands on it's own and contiues it's journey within all it's fans. How long between "Star Trek" TOS cancelation and the books, animated series, the first (not so great and overwrought) movie, and the much better second one. I really think that the 'verse is well ahead of the curve. Hardly a week goes by without some mention in several types of media. Recently on the "Big Bang Theory" Miss Glau's new project (The Cape) Allen on the new "Rockford Files." Frequently an actor's current work sparks interest in past projects. Ok, Gina Torres' "Spot on Perfect" portrayal of Zoe did not spark a lot of interest for me in "Cleopatra 2020" but that may have been my fault! Let me sum it up this way. These folks and their 'verse are part of our collective conscious now. It will continue and grow.

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 12:46 PM

REENACT12321

Also, a cooling period has to happen, nothing can increase exponentially constantly.

Someone once said, brilliant flames flicker and die out, but the coals they burn much much longer.

We're just seeing the holding pattern now that the 'verse has its own sovereignty of sorts. It's not dying, it's holding as I believe someone else said.

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Monday, March 15, 2010 11:54 AM

LEMMING

Suasor wrote:
Sunday, March 14, 2010 07:44
"Those of us who are here are not part of the problem. But the Browncoat fandom is burning somewhat less brightly. Look at the sales of the DVDs on Amazon. Way down from a few years ago. SerenityMovie.net is dead in the water, and other Firefly centric sites have disappeared. One of the big podcasts (Firefly Talk) has been silent for 16 months. They won a big award in 2007, and put out 65 great podcasts. But the buzz is getting quieter and less intense."

I take your point about certain aspects of the fandom easing back. Serenity.net has gone very quiet (I suspect some of the more active posters have moved over to the new Signal forums at forum.signalpodcast.com) and www.cantstopthesignal.co.uk is also pretty dead. Firefly Talk is on indefinite hiatus due to that fact that it was mostly run by one individual who has had health issues, not because of lack of listeners or material. (The fact that The Signal and Sending a Wave are still going strong with regular shows tells me that Firefly podcasting is far from dead - though that fact seems lost on Haken - and yeah I'm biased :-)

Things are shifting into different patterns for sure, but I dispute that the fandom is dying. QMx and Dark Horse would neither be producing new licenced product if they didn't think they could sell it to fans. (The Firefly stuff QMx has in the pipeline with the Firelfly license - oh, which by the way means the *Fox* themselves still see some profit in it - is very exciting)

I like to be realistic, but temper that with optimism. My experience is that the fandom is still pulling in new fans (though not at the same rate perhaps) that fan produced and officially licenced material is continuing to expand (and to sell, well, what's more)

The sheer bulk of fan produced (whoever it was asking "where it was?" simply hasn't looked) and steadily increasing officially licenced product - and lets not forget new actual Joss written canon out this year - says that this thing is *far* from over.

We're here. We're not all going away. I can live with that :-)

Nick

The Signal

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Monday, March 15, 2010 11:56 AM

LEMMING

"(The fact that The Signal and Sending a Wave are still going strong with regular shows tells me that Firefly podcasting is far from dead - though that fact seems lost on Haken - and yeah I'm biased :-)"

Just to clarify that comment. Firefly Talk is the only Firecast listed under that homepage heading on this site. In 2 years or so of asking Haken to post details of all the other Firefly based or related podcasts (supplied multiple times both privately and in the Central forum meant for discussing issues with this site), nothing has happened. So I respectfully request again that details of at least the currently active podcasts Sending a Wave and The Signal be listed there along with the podfaded but still available (and excellent) content of Firefly Talk and many other projects like Old Wounds, Severance etc.

Nick

The Signal

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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:10 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
In other words, we either become self-sustaining, or die. There really isn't any inbetween.

Seems to be there's a ring of truth to that. We've been out here on our own a good while now with nothing more than a couple of comics to keep us going. Oh sure there's a one shot comic in the pipe, the talk of "A Shepherd's Tale" comic (still no release date), but that's about it. No novels, nothing official, and no word from Joss.

Guessing SigmaNunki is right that we have to be self sustaining. Seems we've been doing pretty much just that for years now.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

X.O. / Battalion O.I.C.

http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

http://76thbattalion.proboards.com

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Friday, March 19, 2010 10:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

As exhibit A, I point to SERENITY, a movie which Joss himself has stated would never have been made without the fans.

...snip...

It's seems our definitions of massive are quite different. Because mine requires there to be more projects than I could count on my hands. Regarding the BSR, etc. That's hardly anything. I mean, no offence to those that write/draw, but when one considers commercial quality v.s. what's found in the BSR... well there's no comparison.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
Please show the increase in the number of fans. Point of fact, you can do neither. No-one can. The fandom is dying.

That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Perhaps the most visible portion of the fanbase seems to be decreasing, but there are more fans every day.

Not a week goes by that there's not a new thread from someone who has just discovered FIREFLY posted in these very forums, and there are still consistent tales from long-time fans who've turned new people onto it.

The FIREFLY DVD is currently #27 in sales on Amazon in the category of Movies & TV. It has been in the top 100 for more than a year (consecutive). It is further rated #2 in Boxed Sets/Drama and Drama/Television. There's no other TV series with close to that accomplishment, and much of the competition has the benefit of not having been cancelled 7 and a half years ago.

That's actually not an opinion. Haken himself has noted a massive decline in activity on the forum and other forum operators have noted the same. The community is dying. What you cite is just something that you use to continue your folly. Point of fact, just because something sells, doesn't mean another fan is created. I've purchased lots of stuff that I'm not a fan of, but was good enough to be put in the buy category.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
Then why couldn't I get more than a few pages into the first comic because of tragically poor writing?

I can't really speak to why you didn't like the comic, but if I had to speculate on an answer, I would posit that perhaps you have some bias against the medium and perhaps consider it a "lesser" form.

Nope. Me likes me Anime/Manga. I also didn't mind some of what I saw in the HellBlazer series. What makes those comics lesser is that the dialogue, etc, is on the level of what I've seen in comics targeted toward kids, not to mention hadn't a lick of Joss-ism in them.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
Opinion is not fact.

You are correct. Here is fact for you: SERENITY: THOSE LEFT BEHIND was Dark Horse's bestselling title in 2005. Among other things that it beat out where multiple Star Wars titles (in the year that REVENGE OF THE SITH was released). Further, it is of note that Star Wars- and Conan-themed titles are typically Dark Horse's bestselling titles (by a pretty large margin, I believe).

It is my understanding that BETTER DAYS had similar sales (and, actually a better critical and fan reception).

Better selling does not equal better. Reviews are slanted toward "it's awesome" regardless of the quality. That's true whether it's for comics, movies, or otherwise.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
There are many more people like me than you seem to think, that think that the comics suck.

Opinion, as someone once said, is not fact.

Both TPBs are currently rated 4 stars on Amazon. Between the two, only 1 person rated only 1 star.

Again with the (at best) sophistry. Point of fact, people like me tend to not come out and say that the comics suck (or similar) because we get flamed by those that think such words are heresy. Sound familiar?

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
Your point?

If you're one of those people who is holding his breath for the series to return, you are sure to be disappointed. Same thing with a movie, most likely.

In the foreseeable future, the canon of the Firefly 'Verse is likely to flourish only in alternate media.

Well, no I'm not. And that response doesn't make any sense given what I was replying to. Context disconnect anyone.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, March 19, 2010 10:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

The announcement of SERENITY: FLOATOUT is brand new from the past week or so. I don't think anyone had heard of it before.

Although STILL FLYING was announced last year, the fact that it will contain all-new short stories written by some of the series writers is a relatively new wrinkle. I believe word came after announcement of DOLLHOUSE's cancellation.

So, one new thing then. Wow, our fandom is being overwhelmed with new content...

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, March 19, 2010 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
The fandom is dying.

If you really feel that way what are you still doing here? Read back through this thread and tell me that everything others have said indicates there is no activity or product being generated by the fans. You can't. It's just your opinion, and your opinion is wrong.

...snip...

Ok, so I say that the fandom is dying. This means that it isn't dead yet, otherwise I would have stated that it is dead and not dying. But, you take what I've stated and misrepresent it as I think it is dead and go from there. This is referred to as a strawman argument (i.e. invalid).

But, if you go back to the activity of the participation on these forums and others, there is a distinct decline which is tending toward dead. That's not opinion, it's fact. Fact that has been stated by the forum operators (because they can do these stats things to the logs). In fact, one doesn't even really need the logs to see it. One only needs a memory. I've been around for years and comparing when I first got here to now... well, there's a drastic difference. You might not like it, but facts are facts.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, March 19, 2010 11:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

Guessing SigmaNunki is right that we have to be self sustaining. Seems we've been doing pretty much just that for years now.

Thanks :) But, we haven't been doing the self sustaining thing so much as we've been doing the "Well, here I am" thing.

Just saying that instead of having that guy over there doing his thing:

http://revolutionfirefly.webs.com/

And that guy over there doing his:

http://zconnect.org.uk/firefly

And some other folks over there doing theres:

http://s4.invisionfree.com/GunRunner/index.php?act=idx

And ....

Seems to me it might be a better idea to work together to actually get something done. I've raised that notion when projects were announced, but everybody needs to be in control and doing exactly what they want without compromise. So, dead project and dead project is the result. And that goes beyond the game realm as well.

Sad state of affairs indeed.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 3:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Regarding the BSR, etc. That's hardly anything. I mean, no offence to those that write/draw, but when one considers commercial quality v.s. what's found in the BSR... well there's no comparison.

You can't ask for fan interest, then denounce fan interest as being not of high enough quality. That's ridiculous.

Quote:
That's actually not an opinion. Haken himself has noted a massive decline in activity on the forum and other forum operators have noted the same.

That is one portion of things, true. But it is not the entire picture. When there's more to talk about (as there will be as 2010 progresses with at least 3 Firefly projects), there will be more conversation.

Quote:
The community is dying.

That is your opinion, and a pretty big leap from a single assertion.

Quote:
What you cite is just something that you use to continue your folly.

I could say the same. Since you don't seem particularly interested in conversation, but simply in pushing your viewpoint regardless of facts, I will likely waste no more time on you after I finish reading through this post.

Quote:
Point of fact, just because something sells, doesn't mean another fan is created.

Correct. But it DOESN'T mean a new fan is created. My point is not that FIREFLY is still selling, but that (8 years after the series, and 5 years after the movie), it is still selling WELL. It is selling much better than current items. And it's not just the same folk buying their 19th copy.

Quote:
What makes those comics lesser is that the dialogue, etc, is on the level of what I've seen in comics targeted toward kids, not to mention hadn't a lick of Joss-ism in them.

I'm sure Joss and his writer (who wrote for the series) would disagree with that opinion, as do I.

Quote:
Point of fact, people like me tend to not come out and say that the comics suck (or similar) because we get flamed by those that think such words are heresy. Sound familiar?

If you think I've flamed you, your sadly mistaken. You've denounced the comics categorically stating the fact that they are bad based on little more than your opinion that you don't like the dialogue.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 6:29 AM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

The only thing I don't like about the comics is that they are just pictures and words, and what I want is our BDHs speaking those words on my TV screen. Other than that I've enjoyed them, and will be buying FloatOut and Shepherd's Tale when they are released.

Also, just because there is less activity on various forums does not mean that former participants have left the fandom, just that they have other things to do rather than discuss the same old, same old for the thirtieth time. When and if there is new content to discuss I am sure we will see more activity.

For instance, I've been a regular here for around six years, and I don't see members like ManWithPez, ThatWeirdGirl, or Succatash post very often anymore. I don't for one minute think they have lost their love for Firefly though. That's just crazy talk.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Saturday, March 20, 2010 9:19 AM

REENACT12321

I think Sig is set on being negative and any attempts to rouse him will only lead to him continuing to push his inflammatory "dying" statement and trying to dismiss your attempts to brighten the picture with the actual fandom that's still out there.

"...we need a hood ornament..."

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

You can't ask for fan interest, then denounce fan interest as being not of high enough quality. That's ridiculous.

Please stop reading into what I say and twisting the facts by taking things out of context.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
That's actually not an opinion. Haken himself has noted a massive decline in activity on the forum and other forum operators have noted the same.

That is one portion of things, true. But it is not the entire picture. When there's more to talk about (as there will be as 2010 progresses with at least 3 Firefly projects), there will be more conversation.

Um, it kind of is the entire picture (at least in respect to what you are talking about here). I mean, it just isn't that people aren't talking about FF/S here (and elsewhere) anymore. It's that no-one is talking here anymore at all (hyperbole). Conveniently missed that point I would imagine.

I would also say that you are at least naive with regards to the assumed increase in conversation. Because, past history contradicts that. But, perhaps that was before your time on this site or you are seeing history through rose coloured glasses.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
The community is dying.

That is your opinion, and a pretty big leap from a single assertion.

Nope. Read the entire argument I've put forth. Check out the history and it will be confirmed. Sorry. Reality is reality.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
What you cite is just something that you use to continue your folly.

I could say the same. Since you don't seem particularly interested in conversation, but simply in pushing your viewpoint regardless of facts, I will likely waste no more time on you after I finish reading through this post.

There's the rub though. I actually point to facts (e.g. web site traffic drastically down) and you just spout opinion. There's a difference between the two you know.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
Point of fact, just because something sells, doesn't mean another fan is created.

Correct. But it DOESN'T mean a new fan is created. My point is not that FIREFLY is still selling, but that (8 years after the series, and 5 years after the movie), it is still selling WELL. It is selling much better than current items. And it's not just the same folk buying their 19th copy.

Unless you can provide a causal link between sales and increased fan activity, you're sunk. Unless you can provide a reasonable fact based argument to show that "still selling well" will equal "will sell just as well in the future", you're sunk. Unless you can show that those sales will not be long term but rather mostly right after release, you're sunk (this one is a requirement of the movie industry btw). Unless you can show these basic things, a business case you have not made.

Btw, selling better than some (not all as you imply by saying "much better than current items") is pretty much meaningless given the quality of those products and the fact that FF/S is a a poorly served niche demographic.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
What makes those comics lesser is that the dialogue, etc, is on the level of what I've seen in comics targeted toward kids, not to mention hadn't a lick of Joss-ism in them.

I'm sure Joss and his writer (who wrote for the series) would disagree with that opinion, as do I.

Well a side-by-side comparison would prove my case. But, I'm not so invested in "being right" that I'll do such a thing. Stick with your opinion if you want. No skin off my teeth.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
Point of fact, people like me tend to not come out and say that the comics suck (or similar) because we get flamed by those that think such words are heresy. Sound familiar?

If you think I've flamed you, your sadly mistaken. You've denounced the comics categorically stating the fact that they are bad based on little more than your opinion that you don't like the dialogue.

Well, you kind of did. Nothing like getting an angry reply because I don't along with the status quo. I've also done more than just state my opinion.

It's sad that you don't seem to read anything more that what you can twist into your opinion of things...

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:17 PM

@ecgordon:

It doesn't mean that former participants have stayed in the fandom either. But, there's actually human type stuff that would say that they have actually left. As in, people tend to drift away from what they once loved when it isn't around anymore. And historically, that's what has happened to this fandom. People slowly drifted away as time went on; they've moved on to other things.

Does this mean that they won't go see another movie or some such if released? Of course not. But, there's a difference between being in the fandom and just liking something.

I'll also point to the fact that, by and large, people have stayed here not to talk about FF/S, but, rather to talk to people that they now consider friends (if only online). Just check out the new conversations that are coming up. How many are FF/S related and how many are other? But, the drift continues even still...

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by reenact12321:

I think Sig is set on being negative and any attempts to rouse him will only lead to him continuing to push his inflammatory "dying" statement and trying to dismiss your attempts to brighten the picture with the actual fandom that's still out there.

Nope. It's just the reality thing that I really like. As in, we must be honest about where we are if we are to make headway.

I should also point out that while I do at the same time say that the fans need to be more active and put down the BSR, these two ideas are not mutually exclusive. You see, drawing pictures and fic is nothing compared to what is really needed. The fans need to get together as a group and complete project after project of projects that push the envelope of what is possible.

Pictures do not succeed in this effort. A more grand effort like sketching out planets cities, etc would be. Fic doesn't cut it. A more grand effort like creating a 'Bible' for writing fic would be (this is a project that I considered doing but didn't have the time to do myself -- inactive fan base). That would be a start with that stuff. You know, instead of everyone writing in different directions. Games are another area that is feasible assuming a reasonably small game (or episodic).

Unfortunately, what is done is none of this, or too much. There are... numerous game projects that can be found in the archive that show the too much thing and a complete lack of others that show the too little issue.

You see, it's not that I'm being negative. Here I've pointed out things that could be done. I've also done this many many times in the past. But, guess what. No-one pulls up there socks and actually does anything. They just talk or my suggests of something to do other than talk kills the conversation with cries of "Why can't we just talk!".

Also, I have I tried to organize. Go look in the archive. I've made multiple attempts. There has also been a couple attempts that I didn't publicly announce but only contacted people privately (those that stated that they'd join such a project). The response was... underwhelming.

That's the real point. It's the, "You have to get off your ass and actually do something to make a difference" thing that I'm getting at. And I'm not talking about the "We've done the impossible, let's do it again" thing. I'm talking about realistic goals.

But, that isn't what's wanted. That isn't what "inspires" people around here. This, largely speaking, is an all or nothing crowd. And if it isn't something that is exactly what the big corps are capable of, that takes teams of 100 (or more) years to do, then it just isn't worth it. But, you know, even then, it's "Good luck with that. Hope to see it soon." Because, god forbid someone would learn a new skill or something crazy like that.

And before you attempt to call me on not doing (or doing as the case may be), in Dec I picked up Unity ( http://unity3d.com/) and started playing with that. In mid Jan I picked up Blender ( http://www.blender.org/) and started playing with that (I would show you how well I draw if you don't believe this one is picking up a new skill for me. But, it might blind you.)

I also currently have several projects that I'm considering (and one I actually have done some modelling/rigging for) including, FF/S, Captain Hammer, Ratchet and Clank, and two original IPs. Nothing really big. If I really gave 'er, I'd probably be able to bang one out in a couple months (if only a playable concept 1 or 2 level thing). I'm just waiting for my heart to decide on one of them because I think they're all really neat.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Friday, March 26, 2010 1:41 PM

KINGEICHOLZ

I am the future.

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Friday, March 26, 2010 2:43 PM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by KingEICHOLZ:
I am the future.

Then we're doomed.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:18 PM

CORTEXOVERRIDE

I do believe that the fandom is growing, but only through 'Geek Circles' so to speak.The only time I ever hear anyone quote from the movie or mention it is in Comic Book shops or Xbox Live. There is even people on XBL with gamertags like 'DustDevilRebel' and 'RiverTamIzDaMan'.In public though, I noticed tons of people who instantly know what 'Buffy The Vampire Slayer' or DollHouse is, but have no idea what 'Firefly' or 'Serenity' is.
The best way I try to promote the show and movie is by saying that it's free on either Hulu or Netflix Watch Instantly. Then they're intersted

.

<>

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 3:12 PM

Sigma, could you clarify this? You said something about wanting to "put down" the Blue Sun Room...? For what purpose? Do you believe it distracts people from helping with bigger projects (but not "big" projects, which you don't believe the fandom is capable of anymore).

I'm not sure if this is what you're arguing, but if so, I think it's a little unfair to deny people a place to post fanfiction or pictures. It may not be big projects, it may not contribute much to the community, but it's a hobby, and I think people are allowed to chose how they spend their free time.

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Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:07 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Agreed. It is my understanding, from all my research on the matter, that the original contract was for 10 years, rights and such. If I'm not mistaken that would mean anyone interested in continuing the saga could dos o without any meddling by Fox, or Universal for that matter.

I would think at that point that the actors would be partial to a mini-series or films, but a TV series may not be feasible - not with the original actors (mainly because of previous obligations0. A re-telling of the 'Verse may be in order here. I would prefer our BDH because it just wouldn't be right without them but, I want Firefly back. With the proper backing - it could work.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Sunday, March 28, 2010 12:20 PM

DAMAGEDCALM

Well, can't say I know what the future holds but I reckon my recent past may lend insight. So's you know, I couldn't stand Buffy and wasn't rightly sure who Joss Whedon was before March 2010. (Sorry, been talkin like HucK Finn for days now)

Then, early March, I netflix-stumble upon Serenity in their instant watch section. I settle on the title - still suffering from BSG withdrawal - after trying all manner of substitute for my Starbuck fix (including Caprica).

Long story short, 3 weeks, one movie, and 14 episodes later, I am in a state of shock. As a late-comer, I feel as if I have entered the five stages of grief for a friend I never met.

I have been inconsolable since. Joss Whedon is a frackin GENIUS.

Now, what will I do about this? Not sure. But this I know: No Thing Can Stop The Serenity.

I will sample everything 'verse I can find.

I will join the Browncoats (mind you, as a 46 yo father, this is almost embarrassing to acknowledge).

I will tell anyone who will listen to "give witness" to the DVD.

And, if I ever get a grip on the FOX knucklehead that sealed the Capn's fate, I will "truly meet the man".

Hell, I may even give Buffy another shot.

mourninginchitown

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Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:45 PM

SILVERSRFR

I agree with SigmaNunki. Unless we do something soon, we will die a slow death.

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Monday, March 29, 2010 4:31 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Welcome aboard! 46 you say, come fellas make him feel at home. I'm (ugh) 57 and a sci-fi, fantasy aficionado - especially in film. The withdrawal pangs you're feeling is part and parcel, and defines what it's like to be a Browncoat.

Keeping the Verse alive is what we do - mainly by doing what you rightly suggested "giving witness" and passing it on. Oh yeah, there's this site as well. Plus sharing your DVDs with whomever will watch (and even thems that don't).

It's really amazing and shiny how people, once they get past their initial indignation, just absolutely fall in love with this gem. Me, I'm an original Browncoat (that means I watched the show from day one, back in 2002) but didn't come to know this site until recently.

Once again, welcome to the long-suffering die-hards known as Browncoats. No need to dress, chow's in ten.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Monday, March 29, 2010 7:32 PM

DAMAGEDCALM

Thanks for the welcome, SGG. Like you, I am a lifelong fan of sci-fi and am very happy to have found this site.

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Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:35 PM

Ya, sometimes it take forever for me to get back to people.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Sigma, could you clarify this? You said something about wanting to "put down" the Blue Sun Room...?

Not wanting as I recall (using your implied definition). Just stating that the quality isn't exactly commercial. Thus, the BSR isn't exactly a wealth of high quality material. So, "put down" in a very different way that what you imply in your post.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

For what purpose? Do you believe it distracts people from helping with bigger projects (but not "big" projects, which you don't believe the fandom is capable of anymore).

I'm not sure if this is what you're arguing, but if so, I think it's a little unfair to deny people a place to post fanfiction or pictures. It may not be big projects, it may not contribute much to the community, but it's a hobby, and I think people are allowed to chose how they spend their free time.

The only reason why a larger project isn't possible is that people refuse to put in any effort (moral support is all that should be expected), and they refuse to work together on a project not of there own making. Also, in every project I've been involved in (and seen) there is a very flat hierarchy. What I mean by that is that there really isn't much of a leadership in the projects. So, the project goes in all directions, falls into chaos (in more ways than one) and eventually fails.

Thus:

(post extracts)
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=42231#767136
"""
A more grand effort like sketching out planets cities, etc

A more grand effort like creating a 'Bible' for writing fic

Games are another area that is feasible assuming a reasonably small game (or episodic)
"""

Aren't possible.

I've been willing to start such projects in the past (and have tried), but have run into the no support problem. I've also seen the, I'll help you but why isn't every idea I'm suggesting being put in, problem. As in, people's participation always seems to come with strings attached.

What needs to happen is someone come up with an idea for a project and bang the vision out along with the direction. Then, if/when appropriate, ask for help and be ruthless about maintaining the integrity of the vision and the direction. Help means help, not taking the project in a different direction or multiple directions. That's assuming the fandom actually helps in good numbers and doesn't bitch about the project's vision (assuming the vision is doable that is). That said, once the projects goals are completed, further development is up for debate (assuming it doesn't compromise the integrity of what has already been done). But, to complete a project, it takes laser focus, not feature creep and constant discussions of what could be done additionally, afterward, etc.

At any rate, it's very late and the world isn't as focus-y as it should be. So, I hope the above actually ended up clarifying stuff.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:42 PM

@DAMAGEDCALM:

The age range here is (or was last time it was brought up) from the teens to retirees. So, there isn't exactly anything to be ashamed of age wise.

Oh, and if you give Buffy another shot, do watch into the 3rd season before giving up. That's when the show really hits its stride from what I recall. If you end up liking it, you'll thank me/us for the enjoyment you're about to receive.

(NOTE: It should be pointed out that Buffy was a replacement for another show that was canceled 1/2 way through its season. So, Buffy had its 1st season cut in 1/2 and was rushed. At the very least that is the season that should be put up with. The 2nd one is much better, I promise. Joss-isms becoming more dense as time goes on.)

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:37 AM