Wouldn't Badger have informed the Alliance....? by TheSomnambulist

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Wouldn't Badger have informed the Alliance....?

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POSTED BY: THESOMNAMBULIST
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 01:14
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/x73AHR
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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:01 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Just wondering. Badger would have known about the Alliance looking for a Firefly class ship after SERENITY, no? And wouldn't he have worked out after SHINDIG that the fugitive brother and sister, that the Alliance spoke of, were Simon and River?
Therefore... Would Badger not have turned in Mal to the Alliance?

Or would Badger be too afraid to involve himself with the Feds in any way?

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:49 AM

BYTEMITE

Presumably Badger knows better than Jayne that calling the Feds is how someone like him gets pinched. It's not like he exactly has a clean record and can show up to get the reward.

But, it's possible he's thought about it and might even have plans or partners in place who could pull it off. He very nearly did in Those Left Behind when provided the safe opportunity.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:07 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Presumably Badger knows better than Jayne that calling the Feds is how someone like him gets pinched. It's not like he exactly has a clean record and can show up to get the reward.

Yes. Could be. Can you remember if there's any follow up on Badger's position and the Alliance? I can't recall.

Would he be aware of the Hands of Blue even?

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:09 AM

STORYMARK

Probably wouldn't do well for his future dealings to be the guy who'll turn you over, either.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:14 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Yeah - that's probably what makes the most sense.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:47 AM

CYBERSNARK

Does Badger know that Simon & River are related? He was pretty distracted by River's performance; it's fully possible he just assumed they were two random passengers --nothing suspicious in that, since he knows Mal tends to carry 'em.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:13 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

True Cybersnark. But I was thinking with the Alliance having sent the wave in Serenity, that they were on the look out for a Firefly Class ship, that Badger would have made the connection.
It's purely conjecture of course, but I was just curious whether anyone else thinks that Badger may have made the connection...

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Remember also the old adage about honor among thieves. They may be said to HAVE no honor, but in general, criminals usually DO have a bit of a code, and a huge part of that code is "no snitchin'"; even your adversaries and business rivals, you don't turn over to the authorities.

Why? Because you're in the same business, basically, and everything you'd turn THEM in for, they could just as easily flip on YOU in return for a lighter sentence. Mal more or less works for Badger, so Badger has more to lose than Mal, when you get right down to it. And they both enjoy sticking it to the Alliance whenever they can.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:45 PM

JENJEN

not to fret!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Remember also the old adage about honor among thieves. They may be said to HAVE no honor, but in general, criminals usually DO have a bit of a code, and a huge part of that code is "no snitchin'"; even your adversaries and business rivals, you don't turn over to the authorities.

Why? Because you're in the same business, basically, and everything you'd turn THEM in for, they could just as easily flip on YOU in return for a lighter sentence. Mal more or less works for Badger, so Badger has more to lose than Mal, when you get right down to it. And they both enjoy sticking it to the Alliance whenever they can.

This exactly.

I think that if Badger did make the connection (though I tend to think he had other things more important to think about), he'd keep it to himself, possibly for a time when he'd really need the leverage.

~Stay shiny!

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 1:50 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by JenJen:

This exactly.

I think that if Badger did make the connection (though I tend to think he had other things more important to think about), he'd keep it to himself, possibly for a time when he'd really need the leverage.

~Stay shiny!

Bingo. I'm not saying Badger wouldn't sell out Mal, River, and Simon in a heartbeat *IF* the situation warranted it (if, say, Badger finds himself on the wrong end of an Alliance investigation, and either is, or is about to be "bound by law"), but he doesn't trust Alliance any more than he would trust Mal or Jayne - and probably quite a bit LESS than he'd trust them, because Mal and Jayne have no power to screw him over, while the Alliance most assuredly DOES have that power. He'd keep that info to himself unless he really NEEDED to bring it out, and not for some mythical bounty or reward, because Badger strikes me as a savvy sort who knows how the Alliance repays "loyalty": not at all, or with a bullet to the brainpan. Squish.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:00 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I agree with all of this, the last thing Badger wants is to be entangled with the feds, we see in the pilot that he's flying under the radar just like Mal and crew are, so he'd avoid any situations where talking to the Alliance is a factor.

Also I don't think he knows that Simon and River are related, never is he presented with that particular information.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:34 PM

VERASAMUELS

I suspect the Operative might have got to Badger first. "Leave no home to run to."

Devout Keeper of Jayne's Lunchbox

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 2:48 AM

LEMMING

Nah...Mr Badger is too canny for that. He was clearly not on the screens when the Operative did the whole "no ground to go to" speech.

Agree with reasoning above: snitching would be bad for business and he's "a businessman, see, roots in the community". Neither he nor Mal - despite the mutual dislike - would lightly compromise the prospect of future dealings (even if Badger implied that the Alliance might find out about the imprinted bars if Mal hung around Persephone)

That's the assumption I made in the Badger's World audio segments on The Signal podcast.

Season 1 Badger's World:
http://signal.serenityfirefly.com/mmx/series/view.php/82

Season 2 Badger's World:
http://signal.serenityfirefly.com/mmx/series/view.php/101

(All 32 eps for individual download or RSS feed as preferred. Each is about 5 minutes long. And not *entirely* serious :-)

Nick

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Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:50 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Ok.

Sorry to bring this up again, but I was re-watching Serenity last night, and you know what Badger would rat out Mal and co to the feds.

After their meeting with Badger goes bad, and Mal, Zoe and Jayne are walking away; Zoe asks Mal whether he really thinks Badger would sell them out to the feds and Mal replies yes, if he hasn't already, and shoots a glance at two federal soldiers...

Therefore I'm of the opinion that in time, had the show lasted, that Badger would have sold them out.

Now there's a chance that Badger, not being the most absorbent sponge in the ocean, probably would never have worked out that it was River and Simon aboard Serenity, but really it's slight. I think he'd have made the connection.

I'm inclined to ask whether this is not an oversight from Joss and the writers?

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Thursday, April 5, 2012 2:03 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

I think Badger could have made the connection after Shindig, if he stumbled on the warrents for River and Simon. He might have tried to use that as leverage, but I don't think he would try and sell the crew out. Badger is likely smart enough to know he's not going to see money from the feds.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 5, 2012 4:13 AM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
Ok.

Sorry to bring this up again, but I was re-watching Serenity last night, and you know what Badger would rat out Mal and co to the feds.

After their meeting with Badger goes bad, and Mal, Zoe and Jayne are walking away; Zoe asks Mal whether he really thinks Badger would sell them out to the feds and Mal replies yes, if he hasn't already, and shoots a glance at two federal soldiers...

Because, what, Mal is always correct? Mal always makes the right assumptions?

I'm not sure that this scene says as much about Badger as it does about Mal (and his low opinion of Badger), the crew's desperate situation (I believe this is the same scene where Mal ticks off all the contacts they can't go to, no?), and the need for the writers to cram the maximum amount of information into the pilot.

In this relatively early scene, the writers need to establish peril (the soldiers) and a ticking clock ("We need to unload this stuff before they catch us!" How do they know it's us? "Badger MIGHT have told them!")

This scene confirms that MAL would agree that Badger would sell them out, but, ultimately, nothing more.

Quote:
Therefore I'm of the opinion that in time, had the show lasted, that Badger would have sold them out.

I too am of this mind, although I'm not sure it would have been to the feds unless circumstances were very, very dire. As other folk have point out, snitches get stitches.

More likely, he would sell out Mal to other criminals (which might amount to the same thing for the crew).

In our speculative virtual series at www.stillflying.net, Badger, wanting to be rid of Mal, forms an alliance with Atherton Wing in season two. We also tweaked "Those Left Behind" a little, to make it clear that Badger sells the crew out to Dobson. (In the comic, I believe the vibe is that Badger is part of Dobson's plan, but may just be a pawn.)

Personally, I think an outcome like that, or even pointing bounty hunters at the crew for a share of the cut, is more likely than Badger going to the feds. He's a sad little king of a sad little hill, and it's not in his nature to cross to the other side of the river, even to deliver a message.

On the other hand, if the payday was big enough, if the money was too good... But here, it's not.

Quote:
Now there's a chance that Badger, not being the most absorbent sponge in the ocean, probably would never have worked out that it was River and Simon aboard Serenity, but really it's slight. I think he'd have made the connection.

Interestingly, in the virtual series, we again tweaked "Those Left Behind" to confirm that Badger had put it together. Our reason? It helps up the stakes between Badger and the crew.

Quote:
I'm inclined to ask whether this is not an oversight from Joss and the writers?

I don't think it's an oversight. There are many factors in play. First and foremost, perhaps: Whedon didn't have rights to use Badger for the movie. If he did, we might not have met Mingo & Fanty, and the whole conversation might be different. Also, Badger would be as dead as Mingo & Fanty.

Which is another point to consider. By keeping Badger's relationship dynamic ambiguous, the possibility exists that Badger is still alive, that he survived the Operative's "Order 66" purge. (Not to harp on the virtual series, but we knew we didn't want to kill off Badger like a punk, so we very intentionally deteriorated Badger's relationship with the crew so by the time of the Op's purge, Badger isn't offering safe harbor, and is therefore safe himself.)

Another point to consider: As shows develop, characters evolve. Even if you discount what I noted about about the writing constraints on an early scene in the pilot, the Badger that the writers were writing to in episode 1x01 might have evolved in their minds by later episodes. Although Mal and Badger never trust one another, I do get more of a sense of "We're all criminals and therefore in this together" in later appearances.

I also think that Badger is, to some extent, afraid of Mal, which would also be an element. Would be betray Mal? Only if he were confident that Mal wouldn't be in a position to seek payback (and I doubt that Badger trusts the competence of the Alliance--in fact, the way he makes a living is by exploiting their weakness).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Thursday, April 5, 2012 8:01 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

A couple of things...

Doesn't the Serenity novel indicate that Fanty and Mingo get questioned by the Operative but released?

Badger never harbored Serenity, so there would be no reason for the Operative to order him killed or even know that Serenity had taken jobs from him. Do we even know where the Operative got his information on who hardors that crew?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, April 5, 2012 9:42 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
Sorry to bring this up again, but I was re-watching Serenity last night, and you know what Badger would rat out Mal and co to the feds.

Badger would rat out his grandmother if there was an advantage in it for Badger - but if there was no advantage, why take the effort?

In Serenity, he wanted Mal and his stolen cargo off the planet ASAP. A vague but anonymous tip-off via a proxy would be enough to get the cops swarming around the port and convince Mal of the virtue of a swift departure, without drawing unwanted attention to Badger himself by (e.g.) actually giving the Alliance enough information to catch Mal. Or, it could have just been a threat.

Now, say, Badger figures out that Serenity is the Firefly with the Fugitives (we never found out how many Fireflies are around - we don't see any but the implication is that they're the 'verse equivalent of a VW bug). The only advantage to Badger would be to get the reward - which would mean giving specific details and a return address. As others have pointed out, Badger ain't exactly Mr Brains but he's quite good at Badger conservation and would probably be realistic about the likelihood of living to collect such a reward. He wouldn't see the profit - plus, Mal is occasionally useful to him.

Anyhow's, Badger's all tied up with this cyborg chick and some doll with multiple personalities, then he's got to get this scientist off a treason charge and after that, President Nixon wants to see him about a blue box. Where's the time to be a low-life grass? (Seriously, is Mark Shepard trying to get into every SF franchise? Will there be a Cockney Ferrengi called B'gar in the next Trek movie?)

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Friday, April 6, 2012 5:26 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

I always got the feeling that both Badger and the Captain had similar feelings about dealing with the Alliance, the word I'm looking for is...........Don't.

It is nothing concrete, nothing I could point to, just something that I find implied by his Badger's demeanor and handling of the info. He was pissed that Mal didn't give him the heads up. Mal's thinking is "let's keep this quiet and the deal stays alive. Easy peasy." Mal forgets that sometimes things just don't go smooth. Even Zoe gave Mal a sideways look when Badger revealed the truth about the Alliance markings.

Sure, he's pissed at Mal. But business is business. Badger was out to teach him a lesson, he won the battle, but doesn't want to lose the war (so to speak). Besides, he thinks too much of himself to ever give over control to anyone else. In other words, he likes to think of himself as bigger than the Alliance. He runs Persephone.

I always found it interesting that he ran things there, King of the Underworld andall. Persephone being it's Queen.

SGG

Where does he get all those wonderful toys!

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Friday, April 6, 2012 6:20 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Badger may not be swift, but he strikes me as the type of bloke who savors his standing in the "community" and knows a thing or two about keeping things quiet. Besides, for Badger, Mal equals cashy money. So much, in point of fact, that he returns to him in Shindig with an 'easy peasy'.

Where would it profit him to turn Mal in, even as a "pillar of the community"? Only one way, a deal with the Fed Mal shot in the eye. No links back to him, as far as the Alliance is concerned. 1) the Fed wouldn't want it to be known he had failed, and rather than go back to face the music he strikes back by making a deal. b) He would have to pay Badger a lot for Mal's whereabouts.....Badger could stand to lose a lot with the deals Mal brings in.

Badger would be in the clear: How? The Fed would go underground (the Alliance does not like failure) if he succeeds.
Or, if Mal wins out, the Fed would be history. It's a win-win!
I'm sure, given the level of security clearence, that the Fed could come up with either money or sensitive intel, or both. But I would tend to think not. As Niska put it, Mal gets the job done. Which gets me thinking, how did Niska hear of Mal's rep? Badger? Maybe?

I'm getting an earful from my wife?

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Saturday, April 7, 2012 11:04 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by GWEK:

Quote:
Because, what, Mal is always correct? Mal always makes the right assumptions?

Well more often than not the plot/direction flows with what Mal perceives as right or wrong. As he say's in Bushwacked, "It's a burden being right all the time". So in part yes.

Quote:
I'm not sure that this scene says as much about Badger as it does about Mal (and his low opinion of Badger), the crew's desperate situation (I believe this is the same scene where Mal ticks off all the contacts they can't go to, no?), and the need for the writers to cram the maximum amount of information into the pilot.

In this relatively early scene, the writers need to establish peril (the soldiers) and a ticking clock ("We need to unload this stuff before they catch us!" How do they know it's us? "Badger MIGHT have told them!")

Well we view Badger through Mal's eyes and viewpoint yes, but as he's kind of our learned friend through this adventure I happen to think that much of what Mal says , has much truth to it and we're to take that on board. If he believes that Badger would turn them in then "we" as the viewer should regard Badger as something of a threat also.

Quote:
This scene confirms that MAL would agree that Badger would sell them out, but, ultimately, nothing more.

But this is all we have at this stage, and later episodes continue to paint Badger as somewhat self serving.

Quote:
I too am of this mind, although I'm not sure it would have been to the feds unless circumstances were very, very dire. As other folk have point out, snitches get stitches.

On an alliance bias planet Badger, selling out a Browncoat veteran, would probably do no harm to his reputation.

Quote:
More likely, he would sell out Mal to other criminals (which might amount to the same thing for the crew).

Why? What gain is there for Badger in selling Mal & the crew out to say Niska? Within the context of the show there's nothing to suggest that Badger is looked up to amoung other thieves. Quite the contrary as Shindig proves. Warrick Davis wouldn't have anything to do with Badger.

Quote:
Personally, I think an outcome like that, or even pointing bounty hunters at the crew for a share of the cut, is more likely than Badger going to the feds. He's a sad little king of a sad little hill, and it's not in his nature to cross to the other side of the river, even to deliver a message.

Interesting I think the complete opposite to you on this Gwek. Just my speculations of course.

It's just such a pity there's not more content to draw from.

But I love reading everyone s thoughts on this. It's a real eye opener.

Cheers

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Saturday, April 7, 2012 11:08 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Quote:
A couple of things...

Doesn't the Serenity novel indicate that Fanty and Mingo get questioned by the Operative but released?

Badger never harbored Serenity, so there would be no reason for the Operative to order him killed or even know that Serenity had taken jobs from him. Do we even know where the Operative got his information on who hardors that crew?

Damng it! I can't recall if Fanty and Mingo are killed or not? Shucks, I'll just have to re-watch SERENITY again!
:D

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Saturday, April 7, 2012 11:16 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by ImNotHere:

Quote:
Now, say, Badger figures out that Serenity is the Firefly with the Fugitives (we never found out how many Fireflies are around - we don't see any but the implication is that they're the 'verse equivalent of a VW bug). The only advantage to Badger would be to get the reward - which would mean giving specific details and a return address. As others have pointed out, Badger ain't exactly Mr Brains but he's quite good at Badger conservation and would probably be realistic about the likelihood of living to collect such a reward. He wouldn't see the profit - plus, Mal is occasionally useful to him.

Interesting points Imnothere. The VW thing is spot on! Would have been nice to see another Firefly ship wouldn't it. I wonder if they'd flash their lights at each other as they flew past
:D
I'm not so sure I share your thoughts about there not being enough profit for Badger. I think he'd do about anything if it cemented his standing on Persephone.
But it's all conjecture on my part I must admit.

Quote:
Anyhow's, Badger's all tied up with this cyborg chick and some doll with multiple personalities, then he's got to get this scientist off a treason charge and after that, President Nixon wants to see him about a blue box. Where's the time to be a low-life grass? (Seriously, is Mark Shepard trying to get into every SF franchise? Will there be a Cockney Ferrengi called B'gar in the next Trek movie?)

Ha, ha :D Nice. I thought he was awesome in Supernatural season Six. He was given some wonderful dialogue by the writers and he really sold it! He should be doing more film work.

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Saturday, April 7, 2012 11:32 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

Quote:
Where would it profit him to turn Mal in, even as a "pillar of the community"?

Hey Shiny.
Well the only way I see it benefiting Badger is - as I said above; that ratting out Mal, a veteran Browncoat harbouring fugitives against the alliance , on a planet that is presumably alliance in it's bias, would allow Badger a certain distinction. Nothing major, but enough for him to make in roads among the community he's keen to do business with. But I'll concede it's a slight notion.

Quote:
Which gets me thinking, how did Niska hear of Mal's rep? Badger? Maybe?

Interesting...I can't see Badger singing Mal's praises to Niska though... Or can I... I'm not sure about this one?

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Saturday, April 7, 2012 11:47 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
A couple of things...

Doesn't the Serenity novel indicate that Fanty and Mingo get questioned by the Operative but released?

Badger never harbored Serenity, so there would be no reason for the Operative to order him killed or even know that Serenity had taken jobs from him. Do we even know where the Operative got his information on who hardors that crew?

Damng it! I can't recall if Fanty and Mingo are killed or not? Shucks, I'll just have to re-watch SERENITY again!
:D

The movie does not give any indication. Some people thing the Operative would have killed them with the other people he killed. I never thought they would be in that group since it seemed Serenity was merely taking jobs from them, not being sheltered by them.

A quick search seems to indicate that the novel says they are picked up by the Operative and questioned. It is unknown if he let them go.

http://www.google.com/search?q=are+fanty+and+mango+dead&ie=utf-8&a
mp;oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=qVe&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=RrSAT92aM-SK2wW-hNGOBw&ved=0CBoQBSgA&q=are+fanty+and+mingo+dead&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=3226d37ade666d03&biw=1079&bih=591

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, April 10, 2012 1:14 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thanks M52NICKERSON

I had the feeling they were left alone too as they weren't sheltering the Crew. Same with Badger....

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