GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Deep Thoughts.....

POSTED BY: WISHIMAY
UPDATED: Monday, July 16, 2012 11:50
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VIEWED: 5092
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Thursday, July 12, 2012 7:02 PM

WISHIMAY


Ok, so, you've just been promoted to GOD.... It's the end of the world or just the beginning(aka Adam and Eve) and there are just two people left, male and female, of breeding age in the same vicinity left on the planet, say.... 18 years of age, and there is no electricity.

Would you see them never breed and the human population die off, or gentically speaking there are only two possibilities: either produce as many children as possible and have them breed with each other, or have a parent eventually breed with it's OWN children?

Because if the bible were true, God put just two people on the planet, knowing it was gonna get fugly, genetically.... (Wouldn't that whole Eating of the Tree thing be completely irrelevant either way???)


This kinda goes back to the whole "More genetic mutations recently" thing which I'm not sure I believe anyway, but wouldn't we have seen at least half of the population have serious terminal flaws from inception, or is this a case of "Life finds a way?"

By the way

Children of unrelated parents having serious or life threatening deformities
3-4%
Children of cousins through one line
5-6%
Children of cousins through two lines
6-7%
Children of full siblings
7-9%
Percentage of pregnanies that are thought to be naturally terminated before birth...
10%
I would think that those would be dramatically higher if we were all the product of incest??
Also, I would think there would be other incidences of incest in just about EVERY persons lineage, wouldn't you? (scary thought!)


This is all theoretical discussions for me anyway, but something in my head is better than nothin'....

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Thursday, July 12, 2012 7:13 PM

WISHIMAY


hey this was supposed to go in RWED... Oh welll.....

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Thursday, July 12, 2012 7:52 PM

WISHIMAY


Hey, maybe I just solved the whole "More genetic mutations thing that may or may not exist"


http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk/article/TMG9393537/Fashion-for-tight-je
ans-is-increasing-testicular-problems-among-men.html

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Friday, July 13, 2012 4:13 AM

ZEEK


This assumes that Adam and Eve were like us. Maybe the reason we have such high birth defect rates with close relatives is because of the massive inbreeding in the first few generations. Maybe with the DNA of Adam and Eve it wasn't as big of a problem and slowly developed into a problem as the gene pool went on. I don't think we can retroactively apply what we know about current humans to humans that were probably at a very different stage of evolution.

If it came down to the last two people on Earth I would most definitely have their offspring breed with each other. The stigma of that is totally man made. They're just two humans. Granted the stigma does have some medical backing in the birth defect rate, but the feeling that it's gross is just social norms.

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Friday, July 13, 2012 10:50 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
.... and there is no electricity. ....

The world population is very likely to drop to one before it could increase to three. Genetic defect problems solved. For how difficult living without electricity can be for those without the right knowledge, see the movie Hunger Games or the TV show Walking Dead.

On a happier note about genetics, today's entry -- Blogging the Human Genome: How a mutation on chromosome 16 gave Elizabeth Taylor her amazing double eyelashes.
www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/chromosomes/features/2012/bl
ogging_the_human_genome_/blogging_the_human_genome_elizabeth_taylor_s_double_eyelashes_.html


The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, July 13, 2012 11:11 AM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
They're just two humans.



Couldn't that same argument be made for a parent and a grown child? In each there would still be the same potential amount of the duplicated DNA pattern to cause dominate representations of harmful and positive traits to show up?

It seems that DNA doesn't really seems to mind whether it is shallow or complicated, just that there is two sets present, and that it doesn't even mind very similar sets?

We had bunnies when I was a kid and once a male bunny bred with it's own mother, and I had always thought that was a potentially very bad thing, but the offspring were still functioning healthy bunnies, and as a kid that really suprised me... That and with all the articles in the last few years about men keeping their daughters locked up and breeding with them I never saw any mention of severly deformed children... and if anything they gave the impression that the children were normal looking enough.

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Friday, July 13, 2012 11:33 AM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
The world population is very likely to drop to one before it could increase to three. Genetic defect problems solved. For how difficult living without electricity can be for those without the right knowledge, see the movie Hunger Games or the TV show Walking Dead.




I've read several primitive survival novels, and have books on what you can and can't eat in nature. I'd like to think I'd be ok. I have not read Hunger Games, nor have I seen the movie, as a reputable source for things I'd like recommended I watch paint dry instead
Well, maybe if it actually IS the end of the world and I have nothing else better to do...

It's nice to know they figured out the Liz Taylor thing, I hope they figure the rest out before we mess up the rest of the planet and our DNA....

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Friday, July 13, 2012 1:39 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
It's nice to know they figured out the Liz Taylor thing, I hope they figure the rest out before we mess up the rest of the planet and our DNA....

It is all chance and circumstance. If humanity gets down to two, humanity survives based on which defective genes, and how many, the two share:
Quote:

Human genetics started with a black diaper. Around 1900, the English doctor Archibald Garrod began studying cases of alkaptonuria, a disorder that turns people’s urine black when exposed to air. Garrod noticed clusters of alkaptonuria in certain families, and assumed something in their environment or diet caused it. Then, in 1901, a mother brought in her newborn baby, whose diapers looked like an octopus had used them. Garrod realized that someone so young had almost certainly inherited alkaptonuria. Further digging revealed that the child’s parents were first cousins. Certain he was onto something—but unsure of what—Garrod published his findings. He soon got a letter from English biologist William Bateson.

The year before, three biologists had rediscovered Gregor Mendel. Mendel, a monk, had uncovered the first hints of genes (in pea plants) in the 1860s, but had died unappreciated—better known for his showdowns with local sheriffs than his science. Bateson had not been among the trio to rediscover Mendel, but he made up for that by becoming the most zealous “Mendelist” in Europe. He preached the monk’s doctrines tirelessly, and even took up cigars and chess because Mendel liked them.

Bateson’s letter explained to Garrod that alkaptonuria fit the pattern for recessive genetic disorders, which are caused by inheriting two defective copies of a gene. . . .
www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/chromosomes/features/2012/bl
ogging_the_human_genome_/blogging_the_human_genome_how_genetics_nearly_killed_off_darwinism_.html

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:05 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


First off, anyone who reads Genesis as anything other than an allegory is fooling themselves. There was no one pair at the beginning, Adam and Eve, or whatever you choose to call them. The Bible is a very culture-centric document, detailing the lives of tribal people from the Mesopotamia region of the Tigris-Euphrates delta. It is also only about their lives from the time their civilization developed a common tongue and written language. It is only one area where civilization began, it is not where homo sapiens originated.

I know next to nothing about genetics, but I'd venture a guess there are times when certain recessive genes stay recessive for several generations, so there will be times when incestuous relationships result in healthy offspring. There has been breeding between close relations in all societies at one time or another, and I see no reason that wouldn't continue in some post-apocalyptic future. You seem to be asking whether we think it would be okay for that to happen. If there is any purpose in life it is to live, regardless of the circumstances. If there were only one man and one woman in existence it wouldn't matter their familial relationship. They either breed (or clone themselves) or homo sapiens becomes extinct.



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Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:48 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
You seem to be asking whether we think it would be okay for that to happen.

They either breed (or clone themselves) or homo sapiens becomes extinct.



I know I'm close to the Kentucky border, but....not even. I just spend a lot of time thinking about genetics and how the hell mine got soooo messed up.

And- That's easy for you to say...If it came down to me breeding with a relative, sorry BYE BYE HUMANITY...

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Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:49 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Well, you can call me a dirty old man if you want, but I have a few cousins I wish weren't my cousins.



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Saturday, July 14, 2012 5:16 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Wut about Liz Taylor? And wuts rong with your genez?

I dont know a bunch about genetics, but I know that its wen close inbreeding continuez for multiple generationz that defects start to become common. Dogz are a good example.

I think our history iz much more complicated than geneticists know now. I'm partial to the idea that there iz an intelligence in control uv life on the planet and it created us for a reazon. More uv a Gia than the biblical God.

The main bit uv evidence I hav iz the relative simplicity and obvious advantage uv human level or greater intelligence failing to happen for a haf billion or so yirz.

(Two, your posts run past the edge uv the colum. Are you writing sumwer else & pasting it?)



----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:56 AM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by JO753:
And wuts rong with your genez?

(Two, your posts run past the edge uv the colum. Are you writing sumwer else & pasting it?)



A better question might be "What isn't?" You name a system on me there's something not quite right about it. I am the living embodiement of "Youth is NO indication of health." Just getting over pneumonia now, again...

And yes, I think when it runs off the page they are pasting from other places, but soo many are so used to doing that....I just hit "reply with quote" and I can see the whole post if I really need to see what they're saying, most of the time I just guess and ignore it

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Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:02 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Sorry about you problemz. Are you sure its entirely genetic? All sorts uv stuff iz really genetic traits + environmental factorz (mostly food).

The biggest general health debilitatorz I've heard uv over the last 30 yirz are hydrogenated oil and amalgam fillingz.

For most people, hydrogenated oil only slowly clogz up their arteryz and killz them wen they are starting to get old (over 50). But sum people hav a dispozition that amplifyz the effect and may also include other bad effects.

Back in the 80z the fact that dental amalgamz are compozed uv 50% mercury came out. Big scandal that the ADA worked hard to sweep under the rug. I saw many storyz about people who suddenly developed serious health problemz after getting cavityz filled. I recall a young woman who ended up crippled in a weel chair, told she had 6 months left to liv, had seen duzenz uv specialists who couldnt figure out why she wuz so sick.

Then her frend mentiond fillingz. She knew rite away then bekuz all her trouble started after she got sumthing like 10 fillingz. She had them all replaced with compozit fillingz and recovered completely.



----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, July 15, 2012 9:57 AM

DEVERSE

Hey, Ive been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire. Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.


Consider that you had two parents. Your spouse had two parents. There are you and your spouse (2) and Parents (4). But your parents and your spouse's parents had two parents each as well. That's 16 people. Do the math and it doesn't take long to realize that, especially if family lines are from the same origin (ie: anglo saxon), that somewhere, someone has married into the family.

Mathematically, someone is married to a relation every 13 generations. Not exactly close relations, but the person is related.

Considering just parents and one offspring - at 13 generations (based upon 25 years/generation) you have ~12,000 relatives with about ~9000 still alive. At 20 generations, that's ~1.5 million relatives and ~1 million still alive in about 500 years. At 40 generations (1000 years) that's about a trillion ancestors still alive and ~1.5 trillion ancestors in total.

Whoops! Not a trillion people on the earth and we know that not too many families are just 1 child. North America and Europe are generally about 2.3 children now with larger numbers in the past. So where are the extra people?

Well, if you could identify every single person in your family tree, you would find any number of ancestors, and as close as a few few hundred years ago, would show up time and time again in the family tree. So there has been a touch of inbreeding. The mathematics involved makes it obvious that we are all the products of inbreeding.

The good news? I'm happy to report that you are related to Royalty, somewhere along the family tree.


Oh let the sun beat down upon my face
With stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space
To be where I have been

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Sunday, July 15, 2012 10:36 AM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by DEVERSE:
Consider that you had two parents. Your spouse had two parents. There are you and your spouse (2) and Parents (4). But your parents and your spouse's parents had two parents each as well. That's 16 people. Do the math and it doesn't take long to realize that, especially if family lines are from the same origin (ie: anglo saxon), that somewhere, someone has married into the family.

Mathematically, someone is married to a relation every 13 generations. Not exactly close relations, but the person is related.

Considering just parents and one offspring - at 13 generations (based upon 25 years/generation) you have ~12,000 relatives with about ~9000 still alive. At 20 generations, that's ~1.5 million relatives and ~1 million still alive in about 500 years. At 40 generations (1000 years) that's about a trillion ancestors still alive and ~1.5 trillion ancestors in total.

Whoops! Not a trillion people on the earth and we know that not too many families are just 1 child. North America and Europe are generally about 2.3 children now with larger numbers in the past. So where are the extra people?

Well, if you could identify every single person in your family tree, you would find any number of ancestors, and as close as a few few hundred years ago, would show up time and time again in the family tree. So there has been a touch of inbreeding. The mathematics involved makes it obvious that we are all the products of inbreeding.

The good news? I'm happy to report that you are related to Royalty, somewhere along the family tree.





Oh, that's just funny. Not only did I do the same math, but I even went so far as to calculate current birth and abortion rates into it(was going to do approximate losses due to wars, plague, and known natural disasers, but....), I just didn't want to admit to it, but so long as we're both going there ....
Any way you look at it, it's not pretty...
And somehow, being related to people who think God gave them authority to tell others what to do, doesn't make looking at my DNA any better a picture. Wouldn't mind being related to Boudicca, as THAT would for sure explain a few things...

I have always had this theory that if you were to go far enough into your ancestry, you would find a person that looks very much like yourself, with only very slight differences...

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Sunday, July 15, 2012 10:53 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by DEVERSE:
So where are the extra people?


Wars, famine, disease, genocide. All of the above.



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Sunday, July 15, 2012 11:34 AM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by JO753:
Sorry about you problemz. Are you sure its entirely genetic? All sorts uv stuff iz really genetic traits + environmental factorz (mostly food).




Fairly sure...I have only one amalgam and it was done in the last ten years, and replacing it would be problematic, it's large and complicated and I don't wanna... I don't think the new kinds are much better either, I'm having one of those replaced next month, and I haven't even had it that long
I don't like going to the dentist, too much invading of personal space, and laying in one position for too long and I literally can't do that. Also, most of my problems go back several generations, and my grandpa had full dentures and it didn't help his problems any...sooo....

When I was a kid we literally lived offa what we grew, free range chickens, deer, and our garden. Didn't stop me from being allergic to every other damn thing. (Cats, mold, pollen, bees, dust, oxy. ) I hear so many people complain about weight causing problems, but I know a couple women who have conditions like mine that weigh next to nothing and THEY aren't in any better shape...I pay extra close attention to the types of things I eat, because I have digestion problems as well. Have cut out half of my diet and I'm not getting any better. Corn anything is a no-no, coconut, most nuts, sugar-free gum even... Considering cutting cheese completely out, but I'm not that desperate yet...After years of avoiding chocolate, I recently found it helps about half the time, so I'm happy about that...but I've put on a couple pounds because of it too

I could write a novel, really I could. Nothing helps. I really believe for me to be cured, my DNA would have to be restructured- which I don't think I'll live to see the day- but I can't not think about it, either...And I do, constantly.

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Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:58 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


I think by the time we can get our DNA modified we will also hav the choice uv moving into artificial bodiez!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, July 15, 2012 3:01 PM

DEVERSE

Hey, Ive been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire. Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:

Originally posted by DEVERSE:
So where are the extra people?


Wars, famine, disease, genocide. All of the above.



The numbers I posted are for a single person over 1000 years.

Currently, the estimated number of people who have lived over all time from the first homo sapiens (as we are today) appeared on earth about 50,000 years ago; is about 110 billion people - of which about 6% are still alive or ~6 billion people, today.

While I do think that a fair number have died from the above (as well as just good old natural causes) that still leaves a whole hockey sock of people unaccounted for when one realizes there is potentially 1.5 trillion relatives in 1000 years for a single human (I have no idea what the number is called after 50,000 years, and my calculator ran out of zeros). Obviously, we are really, really, really inbred as a species.


Oh let the sun beat down upon my face
With stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space
To be where I have been

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Sunday, July 15, 2012 7:55 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by Naoe:
Well, from what I know, according to Mendel's law of inheritance, recessive genes come out dominantly of a mated pair one every four offspring, so that one child is going to show recessive genetic traits as 'dominant.' I've actually seen this in a family where both parents are dark haired, eyed, and skinned, but, on each side (unrelated), there was a light haired parent or grandparent. They had exactly four children, 3 girls and 1 boy, and the boy was light skinned and eyed. The 3 girls were all dark haired and such. Isn't that interesting?



Sometimes when I'm out, I love to just sit and watch the DNA, especially parents with kids. It's fascinating, probability is...


I have often thought that I am the result of improbable combination of DNA. I am the tallest one in my close relatives, and most of the not so close. I am even taller than my older brother, and act different than the rest and am more sociable (and I consider myself fairly anti-social, so that should say a LOT, heh)

There was an interesting study in Switzerland I think it was, where they found out that famine can have effects genetically even several generations later... Sometimes I wonder if I came about because my great grandparents went through the Great Depression and bigger DNA was advantageous?
If they'd missed a few less meals, would I look different?
Boggles the mind...

EDIT: Also, I think you'll find most variants religiously here. Devout to Atheist, Buddist to Wiccan, Morman to Mennonite and just about everything in between.

If I were to follow anything, I might follow Ethical Culture, but I don't like to follow, period. I don't really like to lead either...How 'bout I just go stand over....there....somewhere... 'K?

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Monday, July 16, 2012 11:50 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm of the belief that Adam and Eve were genetically pure, nothing wrong with them, so incest didn't matter as much back then, plus there weren't a lot of choices. Plus there was no crap in the environment yet, so things just made more sense and everyone was healthier. I don't think it took too long though before things started getting weird though, people have had differences way back in time, they're just more common now.

But if there were two people left I'd discourage them from breeding, just let things end.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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