Inconsistent Jayne in 'Safe'? by IndigoStarblaster

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Inconsistent Jayne in 'Safe'?

POSTED BY: INDIGOSTARBLASTER
UPDATED: Sunday, October 22, 2006 01:58
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Tuesday, August 1, 2006 7:36 AM

I saw "Safe" again last night. I've been reading about attachment theory in the parent-child context, so I noticed as though for the first time that both Simon and River have "attached" to Mal. For example, River registered Book's gunshot wound not when he was shot, but when Mal realized he'd been shot. And then, of course, there's River's line about "Daddy will come and get us soon". And Simon's reassurance that "once the Captain realizes what's happened, he'll come for us", as opposed to "once the others have realized..."

I also mused about how Mal collects and attaches to people, even if they aren't useful to him, and how they attach to him in return (e.g., Book: "It's good to be home").

And I also noticed as though for the first time how Zoe is both reassuring and... well, sort of devil's advocate, only in a gentle way, as when she says to Kaylee both "Captain's got a plan" and "Possibly you aren't recalling some of his other plans". And when Jayne says how life will be easier without the fugitives, she says, "He's right, you know," even though we know she doesn't approve of the abandonment.

But what I really noticed for the first time on this viewing was how inconsistent Jayne was in this episode. When Book gets shot, Jayne is focussed first on the fact that the lawmen are leaving and second on whether Mal had retrieved the money. He doesn't seem to care that Book is hurt. But when they're treating Book (both onboard Serenity and later in the Alliance medical facilities) Jayne seems just as worried about Book as the others.

Then there's when Jayne goes through and steals some of River and Simon's stuff when he thinks they're gone for good. That's certainly in character, given what we know of him to this point. But then, when they come back, Jayne hurriedly returns their stuff and does an awkward, "Glad you're back, doctor", as though he were ashamed of his stealing. It seemed to me it would be much more in character for him to return the stuff grudgingly and not caring if River and Simon knew he'd taken it, along the lines of, "Yeah, here's your stuff, since you're back."

Anyway, if anyone's got any insights into Jayne's character in this episode, I'd be curious to hear them.

P.S. So far, on repeated viewing, some of the episodes I was originally so taken by seem rather ordinary (though still likeable, of course), and some that I had not liked so much at first sight seem much more complex and interesting. The pilot's held up really well, though, on each viewing. I'm on to "Jaynestown" sometime in the next few days, and looking forward particularly to "Out of Gas" at some point.

Indigo S.

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Tuesday, August 1, 2006 8:10 AM

ESTHER

Quote:
Then there's when Jayne goes through and steals some of River and Simon's stuff when he thinks they're gone for good. That's certainly in character, given what we know of him to this point. But then, when they come back, Jayne hurriedly returns their stuff and does an awkward, "Glad you're back, doctor", as though he were ashamed of his stealing.

I think, that's the whole point of Jayne. In a way, he only cares about himself, because he has learned, that this is, what you do and have to do in this world, to survive. In his eyes, it's not bad, it's just the thing to do. Remember the Train Job, where he sais, that he believes, Mal will turn the Tams in somewhere down the road? He doesn't think this to be a bad thing - it would just be the "normal" thing to do in his view of the world.

But he is not so un-caring as he would like to see himself. Remember Artiel, where Mal almost killed him? What made Mal stop? Realizing, that Jayne in fact HAD a conscience, that he new very well, what was right, and what he sould be ashamed of - that in fact he COULD still be ashamed.

But there is another (small) Inconsistency. When Mal implies in OIS, that River could be a reader, jayne is all upset, as if this was the first time, that this thought crossed his mind:

Quote:

JAYNE
(suddenly more uncomfy)
Back up a sec. You're saying she might really read minds?

MAL
Or near enough. Am I the only one thinking along those lines?

BOOK
No.

JAYNE
I don't like the idea of someone hearing what I'm thinking.

INARA
No one likes the idea of hearing what you're thinking.

But long before that (TM), when River struggled with her problematic food, he sais: "Girl's a mind-readin' genius, can't figure out how to eat an ice-planet."

Hmmmm!

Esther

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Tuesday, August 1, 2006 8:24 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Esther:
Quote:
But long before that (TM), when River struggled with her problematic food, he sais: "Girl's a mind-readin' genius, can't figure out how to eat an ice-planet."

That's not inconsistant when you consider The Message was written and filmed after Objects in Space, in fact was the last one filmed, and they learned of the cancelation during the production of the episode. Joss chose to reorder the episodes for the dvd release though.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, August 1, 2006 9:38 AM

MSG

First I would say Jayne evolves just like the others, but in Jayne's case he's developing a conscience. He learns through contact with Kaylee, Mal, and Zoe what is and isn't right and how to act on it. I'd say Safe showcases his developing conscience.

Second Hitler liked animals and treated them well... People are inconsistent

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Tuesday, August 1, 2006 9:45 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

That's not inconsistant when you consider The Message was written and filmed after Objects in Space, in fact was the last one filmed, and they learned of the cancelation during the production of the episode. Joss chose to reorder the episodes for the dvd release though.

I had no idea! That implies such interesting things about where Inara's plot was going, as she obviously stuck around a wee bit longer after "Objects in Space"...

Hmm, I wonder if some kind of tamed-down variation of her Reaver plot would have taken place...

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Wednesday, August 2, 2006 2:16 PM

TRAVELER

My impression of Jayne is he became the man in his family at an early age. His father may have died or left. Jayne learned where he could. That was on the street. You take care of yourself first and foremost. His mother may be the only person who he would put above that. Since he had to find a way of living to support himself, his mother, and siblings he had no time for schooling. In Ariel it may have been the discovery of his lack of education, remember his comment about schooling, more than a knife across the chest that hurt Jayne more.
Jayne is immature. But being influenced by the crew of Serenity has given him the chance to grow up. He must of aged ten years when Mal had him trapped in the air lock. And here you see Jayne actually cares what others think of him. He tells Mal to lie about his death. He stops pleading for his life and starts pleading for his selfrespect. Maturity. Got to love it.
But just because a person is greedy one moment and selfless the next doesn't mean they are inconsistant. It means their human. Jaynestown was another opportunity for Jayne. He was sucking up all the glory people were throwing at him and then the young man dies saving his life. Jayne can't understand this. Why would anybody throw their life away? Jayne may not of understood at that point in time what it all meant but you can see he put this episode of his life in a very special place to be brought out again when the right circumstances required it.
Sometimes Jayne doesn't even realize he's doing a good thing. In Heart of Gold I could not help but notice the special attention he gave the one prostitute. I would have thought you would see him running from one bedroom to the next. Instead he stayed with one woman. He talked to her about killing and staying calm through it. Now I realize this not much of a conversation, but for Jayne this was deep. Pointing to his precious gun collection and telling her how to hand them to him was a serious conversation to Jayne.
So as each member of the cast has a part to play I see Jayne as the child who requires time and opportuinties to grow up. He still has a long way to go. After all if the show had lasted several seasons we may have seen a lot of changes in him. Yet there was some growth. In Safe when he quickly threw Simon's and River's belonging back he actually was ashamed of himself. Who hasn't done something like that. If the show had continued maybe Jayne may have actually said,"I'm sorry." But not for a long time. We may actually see this happen when the show starts up again on a decent network.

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 10:22 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER

Ok, I can buy that. So at first, Jayne is just concerned about the money, because with most of the crews he's shipped out on, that's what they cared about. But then, when he saw how all the others were worried about Book, he saw a model for that kind of caring behaviour, even with someone you don't know that well, and maybe started to find it in himself, too.

When he stole Simon and River's things, he was acting as one would with the kind of people you abandon -- people who are not part of your crew. But when they actually went and retrieved them, it clued Jayne into the thought that maybe they were crew, after all, which meant he started to feel a little bit ashamed of stealing from them.

You guys are the shiniest. Getting to think aloud with all of you always makes things clearer for me. Thanks :)

Indigo S.

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 10:52 AM

AZHEA

Or, he was afraid of what Mal might do if'n he found out Jayne stole from his crew.

Just thought I'd add that bit to the mix, as it's always been my impression.

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 11:00 AM

SPACEANJL

He's the big dumb kid who pushes the limits. I mean, Simon is going to know that Jayne has been in his stuff. (The doctor does not hang his clothes on the floor, the way Mal does.)

I don't think Jayne would steal from 'crew'. Though I might reconsider that stance if there was alcohol involved.

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 11:57 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by IndigoStarblaster:

But what I really noticed for the first time on this viewing was how inconsistent Jayne was in this episode. When Book gets shot, Jayne is focussed first on the fact that the lawmen are leaving and second on whether Mal had retrieved the money. He doesn't seem to care that Book is hurt. But when they're treating Book (both onboard Serenity and later in the Alliance medical facilities) Jayne seems just as worried about Book as the others.

The priorities of Jayne:

1) Me ie am I gonna go to jail
2) Money ie Mal did you get the money
3) Others ie since no other threat exists, Jayne can focus on other things.

But, one must not forget that getting Book fixed up, could alert the authorities to something that Jayne did. Thus, he stands a possibility of going to jail; see 1.

It might not be all that selfless. Plus Jayne isn't exactly a multi-tasking type person.

Quote:
Originally posted by IndigoStarblaster:

Then there's when Jayne goes through and steals some of River and Simon's stuff when he thinks they're gone for good. That's certainly in character, given what we know of him to this point. But then, when they come back, Jayne hurriedly returns their stuff and does an awkward, "Glad you're back, doctor", as though he were ashamed of his stealing. It seemed to me it would be much more in character for him to return the stuff grudgingly and not caring if River and Simon knew he'd taken it, along the lines of, "Yeah, here's your stuff, since you're back."

I don't think this is Jayne being ashamed. More along the lines of not wanting to get caught ie He knows Mal wouldn't exactly like that (negative reprocusions). So, in Jayne's mind, giving it back lessens the possibility that Simon would say something to Mal. Similar to 1 above.

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 12:15 PM

MSG

Traveler...well said that is exactly how I see him. He reminds me of my students. It's not that they mean to be selfish or aggressive, it's that those things are all they have ever known and they don't know how to be any other way. Also, if they had been any other way they wouldn't have survived. Jayne brought survival skills to Serenity and along the journey he learned how to be.

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Thursday, August 3, 2006 1:18 PM

TRAVELER

I would have liked the series continue just see if Jayne does some growing up. When I see his behavior it reminds of myself when I know I've been immature. Then pride steps and you argue with yourself trying to push the blame on somebody or something else. There have been times I've really messed up and couldn't find anybody else to blame so I would get angry with God. If He hadn't this or that. God has been my whipping post plenty of times. I'm going to that special place. But Jayne deep inside is good. In the Message he is weight lifting and when he stops he notices Book standing over the body of the then supposed dead comrade. Jayne actually does apologize to Book thinking he may have disturbed some ritual. Book says no. But their conversation continues and Jayne actually exposes his feeling to Book. Not your typical Jayne.

I can see why we are such ardent fans of this show. Every character has a life. Their past has come on board Serenity with them. So each has learning experiences and problems to face.

It's as if Serenity was waiting for Mal to show up and buy her. River can sense here. She said "Fire" and knew what was coming. Did Serenity tell River in some way.

But this is another topic.

One of my faults is once I get started I can talk the ears off a Nebraska corn husk.

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Saturday, August 5, 2006 1:10 PM

BLINKER

Quote:
JAYNE
(suddenly more uncomfy)
Back up a sec. You're saying she might really read minds?

But long before that (TM), when River struggled with her problematic food, he sais: "Girl's a mind-readin' genius, can't figure out how to eat an ice-planet."

It's not necessarily inconsistent. River's seeming ability to know what everyone is thinking could have become a running joke among the crew. It's not until it's put on the table as a real possibility that Jayne takes the concept seriously: "You're saying she might really read minds?"

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 2:12 PM

TEACHDAIRE

But what about Jaynes relationship with book. The two of the hang out a lot together, either working out in the cargo bay, or jus having a conversation in the kitchen like they did in OiS. Jayne seems to treat Book like a combination brother/father figure, and I think that is what's helped him develop as a person more than anything else in the series apart from Mal's short sharp shock in Ariel.

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 2:37 PM

WELLIMIGHT

Acctually I dissagree entirely on the subject of their belongings. I don't think he was ashamed at all, I think that if Mal knew he had taken them he knew he was in the doghouse, and saying he was glad they were back, if you watch it it was very stiff, we just nessecary small-talk he said because he was nervous they would find out.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 7:59 PM

XITWOUND117

Quote:
Originally posted by IndigoStarblaster:
But what I really noticed for the first time on this viewing was how inconsistent Jayne was in this episode. When Book gets shot, Jayne is focussed first on the fact that the lawmen are leaving and second on whether Mal had retrieved the money. He doesn't seem to care that Book is hurt. But when they're treating Book (both onboard Serenity and later in the Alliance medical facilities) Jayne seems just as worried about Book as the others.

Then there's when Jayne goes through and steals some of River and Simon's stuff when he thinks they're gone for good. That's certainly in character, given what we know of him to this point. But then, when they come back, Jayne hurriedly returns their stuff and does an awkward, "Glad you're back, doctor", as though he were ashamed of his stealing. It seemed to me it would be much more in character for him to return the stuff grudgingly and not caring if River and Simon knew he'd taken it, along the lines of, "Yeah, here's your stuff, since you're back."

Anyway, if anyone's got any insights into Jayne's character in this episode, I'd be curious to hear them.

I don't believe Jayne was aware of the fact that Book got shot when he was talking about the two other things (money and guys leaving). Mal finds out that book is shot after the gunfight, which means Jayne was not aware either because he was with Mal. Plus, the discovering of the shooting of Shepard Book is the last thing to happen before they go to the ship.

And all that aside, I don't imagine that Jayne would get all sentimental (worrying and care is sentiment) about anything during a firefight. Combat is Jayne's business, and when he's in combat he's doing his job. Fight first, everything else later.

Besides, Jayne not caring about Shepard Book just doesn't make sense. There's no way the writers would have let Jayne not care about Book considering Jayne makes more of a friend with Book than with anyone else on the ship (which I think says alot about Book).

You know, this is unrelated to the thread, but I think Jayne has much more of a bad reputation than he deserves. He seems to be considered as the dimwit/comedic relief, but I think he's one of the best characters in the series. He really isn't stupid: I don't think lack of exposure to a language thereby causing insufficient ability to communicate and understand as well as others counts as stupidity. You can't expect a linguist to know jack about combat. Plus, he's not a bad guy. "Jaynestown" shows so.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 11:06 PM

PROPHETESS89

Well, the others cant very well force mal to turn the ship around... unless of course there was a terrible mutiny and they all tied him up and gagged him, which I'm sure they wouldnt do. Not for simon and river anyway. And about the gunshot wound, we didnt know he had been shot until mal had seen it... It would have been weird had she gasped before then.

As for zoe, I think she has a split loyalty. I think she understands the logic of what mal does, but she also has her own oppinions. And we all saw that Mal knows just as well as everyone else that his plans arent the smoothest...

I dont think Jayne wanted the captain to find out he had stolen from them and you noticed how he's kind of finicky around river? I think she scares him some.

I dont think jayne was worried about book. It seems to me that hayne doesnt really get attached to any of them unless he's known them for a long time. I didnt get the vibe that he was worried anyway. Sure, he was hanging around, but... hell, his motives could be skewed as they usually are

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Monday, August 7, 2006 11:28 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by IndigoStarblaster:
For example, River registered Book's gunshot wound not when he was shot, but when Mal realized he'd been shot.

Most of the responces are pretty much along the lines of what I think, but just wanted to say something about this.

Was she registring Books gunshot or Simon's impending kidnapping? Did the two happen at the same time or was it cut like that for drama?

River doesn't mention anything about Book being hurt, seems strange she wouldn't say something if she 'saw' it, even if that something was just a cryptic riddle. I always took it that she saw Simon's kidnapping just before it happened.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 11:47 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I think you may be right there citizen. I think it might have been Simon's impending kidnapping she was reacting to. After all, she stops and looks worried, Simon looks worried, then gets kidnapped, and then River stumbles and bumps into people (or they bump into her). It also ties in with the fact that she went to find him, not help Book and the others.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 3:46 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER

I hadn't thought of that... but if River were reacting to Simon's impending kidnapping, why would she later follow in such a playful manner ("Found you!")?

Re: Jayne being more afraid of being in hot water with Mal than being ashamed of stealing -- that makes a lot of sense; no inconsistency there.

Indigo S.

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:24 AM

CAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by IndigoStarblaster:
I hadn't thought of that... but if River were reacting to Simon's impending kidnapping, why would she later follow in such a playful manner ("Found you!")?

She might have changed her mind, and decided it probably was a game after all. River knows she is ill, after all.

Alternatively, she may have decided it was safer to play the fool. She was certainly acting when she spoke to Badger in the previous episode, so why not when she spoke around the kidnappers in Safe?

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:25 AM

CAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by IndigoStarblaster:
I hadn't thought of that... but if River were reacting to Simon's impending kidnapping, why would she later follow in such a playful manner ("Found you!")?

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:59 AM

HERA7

Just before River reacted and stopped dancing, she was surrounded by people enjoying the music and having fun. She was feeding off that energy of the crowd. Even Simon was enjoying himself. Then these two men approach with hostile intent. She may not of know what that intent was until they grabbed Simon, but it broke the mood/spell on her from the positive energy.

River seems to have all three types of mind reading. First there is reading what people are feeling, or empathy. Then there is reading what they are thinking at the moment. Also she can read glimpses into past thoughts and experiences. Her strongest is the empathic sense. This shows up more than any of the others.

She also has heightened physical senses, which shows up in 'Out of Gas,' for example, when she says 'Fire' just before the engine blew.

Hera7

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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:59 PM

TENTHCREWMEMBER

Could you please just make it stranger? Stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?

My impression of River in "Safe" is that while she may not have known what happened to Book, she sensed the negativity of it, and I believe the kidnapping coincided with Book being shot. That being said, I think River's first instinct was to find her brother, her protector, and that is why she doesn't run off to help Book.

As for Jayne, I think the assumption he grew up having to be the man of the house at too young an age is accurate. I think his childish behaviors are a result of not being able to explore those behaviors as a child, and underneath it all, like Mal, he's a good man...he just has to learn to reevaluate his priorities, which we see him do. Even in the movie, his complaint about River & Simon is that they are a threat to "us on this boat". He clearly makes it known he worries not only for himself, and more importantly, when he later learns the truth of everything about River & Miranda, he's the first to volunteer and passes the bottle to Simon as if to say "Let bygones be bygones" which is the closest you'll get for a "sorry" from Jayne.

Also in the vein of being a good man, is his cunning hat. His Momma made it for him to show she cares about him like he cares about the family --> "Thank you for the credits you forwarded, they have helped as Matty is still sick with the Damplung."

He's a pirate!
And a good man. :P

BWAH!

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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:21 AM

CAVALIER

I'm not sure that I would call Jayne childish. He simply has a straightforward view of the world.

There is Jayne.
There is Jayne's family.
There are Jayne's friends (possibly a very small group).

Simon and River did not fall into any of those categories, especially not as far back as 'Safe'.

If anything, the presence of the Tam's endangered the people in those categories.

On the other hand, as long as Mal wanted them around, Jayne was going to have to live with them, and people who did like them. So he was not going to start a fight, especially since he might find himself on Simons operating table the next day.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:05 PM

BROWNCOATSAWAY

are companions like the geishas of the future? i don't know just thought i make that comment

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Saturday, October 21, 2006 4:41 PM

JOSSISAGOD

Exactly! In the commentary for "Shindig" Morena Baccarin and Jane Espenson, comment that Companions are more like Geishas than prostitutes.

Fe'nos Tol
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Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:32 PM

USMCHELLRAISER

Quote:
Originally posted by xitwound117:
You know, this is unrelated to the thread, but I think Jayne has much more of a bad reputation than he deserves. He seems to be
..........
You can't expect a linguist to know jack about combat. Plus, he's not a bad guy. "Jaynestown" shows so.

Most people I have found who could never actually imagine themselves fighting or in combat for almost anything have a negative impression of people whose profession is in combat/combat arms.
People who are unafraid of the social reprecussions or judgements about resorting to violence are considered 'neanderthals', simple-minded, or childish.

Question: If an insane moody ten-year old boy who talked to himself all the time slashed you almost to the sternum with a knife and lived with you in your home, how would you feel about them?

Question the Second: What would have happened to Simon and River if she had slashed Mal or Zoe? Mal or Zoe would have shot her dead. It's only because the crew of Serenity have an opinion of Jayne as Self-Centered that they sympathize more with others. Jayne has always had Mal's back, yet Mal doesn't care about Jayne's comfort or feelings as much as he does about Simon and River's (well, mostly River's). I'm not saying that Mal is wrong for being that way, I think it's natural for a Man to want to protect a woman. We're genetically programmed for it. But the funny thing is, Jayne would have had Mal's back ten times more than Simon if pushed to the wall- he doesn't have a sister to worry about and protect, so he can be more loyal and less divided.
I like that these characters were written flawed, 'inconsistent' yet true to their personalities- it makes them human to me.

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Sunday, October 22, 2006 1:58 AM

CAVALIER

In the pilot, Jayne told Mal that the reason he did not betray Mal was that the "money wasn't good enough".

In Jaynestown, Jayne describes how he betrayed a former partner to keep the proceeds of a robbery.

In OOG we see how Jayne betrayed his then employer and defected to Mal in the middle of a robbery, because Mal offered a better deal.

At one point Jayne said he thought that the only reason Mal kept the Tams around was so that he could sell them to the Alliance later (presumably when the price had gone up). It appears that he regards such behaviour as normal.

He clearly did betray Simon in Ariel.

The only moral standard that is widespread in the 'verse is that you should not betray your people. Jayne has broken that rule in the past, and indicated that he would be willing to do so in the future.

It is hardly a surprise that people do not regard Jayne as trustworthy.

That is not inconsistant with not wanting to get caught stealing from your own shipmates as in Safe.

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