Scenes you didn't understand by bufo

Well, the commentary says that she was upset about the insults from her client and Mal and was cleansing herself.

So what I figure is this:

1) If it was Mal, he wouldn't have knocked anyway, and the woman has to bathe sometime. So in case he did barge in, she did at least have her back turned to the doorway.

2) Since there was a knock, she knew it wasn't Mal, and so wasn't in as much of a hurry.

One possibility is that she might have thought it was Kaylee. We see that Kaylee does often visit Inara, and for Kaylee Inara might have felt fine telling her to come in just before she covered up.

It happens to be Book, but I don't think he saw anything more than her back. Also, when she sees it's Book, she's glad because she has a chance to make a second first impression without Mal deliberately trying to embarrass her, and to talk to Book about any misgivings he might have while he's traveling with them.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 1:20 PM

I think she was expecting Book. I dare say a large portion of a companions clients are men of the cloth. She was merely preparing herself.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 1:37 PM

Hmm. I'm not so sure. The only client Inara has I'm not sure about is Atherton. The rest tend to be more Alliance officials or affiliated.

Which in this case is one and the same, but she doesn't know that. I digress.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:35 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I'm not sure it mattered to Inara who was knocking. She is very comfortable with her body and is not ashamed to be seen unclothed. Even if it had been Mal I think she would have got a kick out of teasing him with a glimpse of what he couldn't have.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 4:06 PM

Bytemite wrote:

Quote:
Hmm. I'm not so sure. The only client Inara has I'm not sure about is Atherton. The rest tend to be more Alliance officials or affiliated.

Well I think you have to read between the lines. The relaxed nature in which she accepts Book into her room suggests she's not in the least bit uncomfortable about Book being there. This in turn suggests she's more than familiar with men of the church paying her a visit or two.

And remember book's past is still somewhat of a mystery at this stage and as he said. He wasn't born a Shepherd.

Just a thought.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 5:48 PM

ECGordon: I'm not sure about that, either. This is a lady who's supposed to be, or at least tries to be the epitomy of feminine grace. And while, okay, she has sex with men for money, modesty would still be a virtue, as would mystery.

She even blushes in Shindig when Atherton's being too upfront, I dunno, that says to me that she has her boundaries.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 5:53 PM

It's not impossible that she's serviced clergy before, yes, but within the context of that scene I don't get the vibe that she thinks Book is there for a little something-something.

I would imagine she'd be a lot less welcoming, considering she's only just finished up trying to settle herself from the other insults and degradations she was subjected to.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 6:37 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I get the idea that men of the cloth aren't all that common in the core and the rich circles Inara frequents, sure she may have been with some at some point but if she were I don't think it figures into this scene at all. I think Byte's probably right, very common that. I think that companions are rather expensive so lowly not-rich folk probably can't afford one.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 11:51 PM

Well the church has plenty of money and for all Inara knows Book could have absconded with church funds.

The question is:

"She says come in before she covers herself up. Book sees and is embarrassed. Why did she do that and what if it had been Mal who knocked or did she hope it was him?"

My reasoning; she did that because she's been with men of the cloth before. It may seem out of context but if Inara is used to Clergymen visiting her, then it explains her lack of concern in covering herself up. Book (to her) is just another conflicted clergymen. (For there are many.)

As for whether she was expecting Mal, I would say no more than any other ordinary day. Given that we later learn Inara is in love with Mal it's fair to assume she's always hoping he'll pay her a visit.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 2:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I'm not sure it mattered to Inara who was knocking. She is very comfortable with her body and is not ashamed to be seen unclothed. Even if it had been Mal I think she would have got a kick out of teasing him with a glimpse of what he couldn't have.

Plus, as a companion, she's always ready to use her wiles on any man who wanders into her shuttle, invited or no.

Obviously there are questions from Objects in Space, as to what it meant when River was 'reading' the crew...

The reason Inara was crying, after Mal and Nandie had hooked up. I know it's been spoken of, but I still just love that scene.

There are others, of course, but that's all I got at the moment.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 5:42 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

She does say that she expected him.
And I have seen fan-fics that suggest that she knew him in one way or another, including as a former client, which makes her earlier behavior as discrete and careful as possible. Those are as valid a source of theory as any other.

Seems like any time you open up a Firefly question, all you get are more questions. Maybe that's why we love it so much.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 6:46 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
The relaxed nature in which she accepts Book into her room suggests she's not in the least bit uncomfortable about Book being there.

I never got the impression Inara was all that uncomfortable with anyone. Part of the job, really.

I think you ma be projecting your own notions about clergy into this.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, August 5, 2011 11:22 AM

I think I would agree that religious entities and authorities are given a bad rap nowadays, we're all so used to hearing about the hypocrisy. We almost more expect a preacher on television to be corrupt than played straight, and Book is one of a few in a long time who mostly plays the honest shepherd (even with his past).

The world of Firefly does often contend with the issue of hypocrisy, as do some of Whedon's other works. But I don't think Inara had ulterior motives, and I don't think she suspects people of ulterior motives. In some ways, she is very naive.

So I see nothing more in that scene other than what is directly portrayed. She is surprised that Book came to her shuttle, but she was expecting him to come by sometime with a lecture about the evils of her profession. She is surprised again when he is tolerant instead. That's what the lines of their conversation suggests, and so I think that's what's really going on.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 12:16 PM

BUFO

Thanks everyone for your interesting responses. I think she may have enjoyed making Book feel a bit uncomfortable before she got to know him. That actually makes her a lot like Mal in that respect if that's the case.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 12:53 PM

Maybe, though it wouldn't be possible to know for certain who it was until Book startled and started to apologize.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 1:50 PM

PLATONIST

These scenes, the bathing one, and the crying one, purposefully follow instances where her feelings were hurt, they give the viewer a glimpse of Inara, the person, rather than the Companion, as they’re very personal and private to her character in particular. She’s washing off the insults and crying out the pain of heartbreak, symbolically, a human thing to do. It’s how I’ve come to appreciate them.

In the bathing scene, I don’t think she was expecting anyone, when she saw it was Book, she continued, out of defiance, much like Mal would.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 4:08 PM

Originally posted by Storymark:

Quote:
I think you ma be projecting your own notions about clergy into this.

Nope.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 4:27 PM

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Quote:
Seems like any time you open up a Firefly question, all you get are more questions. Maybe that's why we love it so much.

So true NewOldBrownCoat

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Saturday, August 6, 2011 8:27 AM

DALEK!

I've never read to much into the scene.

Inara expected Book not because she served many holy men, but she expected him to try and preach to her. While she may often blush, and act modest to entice clients and Mal, I think she is very comfortable with her body and had no need to entice Book.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, August 6, 2011 4:59 PM

I don't think she was trying to entice Atherton there, either. His forwardness and possessiveness were kind of putting her off a little, shaming her. She's still a little wary when they start to dance, and seems almost afraid to say no to his offer even though she can't accept.

Otherwise, I'd agree with that take on her and Book.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 8:47 AM

DALEK!

I agree, I was not thinking of Wing when I wrote my response. He always seems a strange fit for her. Almost as if she took him as a client more for his status then anything else.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 8:52 AM

I think she probably had some fine appointments with him, but that this time around he started to get a little weird because he was starting to become a little obsessive, and apparently he had some psychopathic tendencies even before then (a little too enthusiastic about killing people in duels). Mal just happened to make it worse.

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 5:10 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I agree with M52's theory as a valid interpretation, makes sense to me.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:40 AM

DALEK!

Okay, I have a couple that are more questions then not understanding.

First, in Safe the scene where Mal is telling Simon to take a walk with River there is a strange shot of a bush that just seems jammed in the middle of the conversation. I've never understood this.

Second, in Objects, who things that River is really walking through the ship? Personally I've never thought she really was because no one responds to her. Thoughts?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:59 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

That scene in "Safe" was to indicate that the backwoodsmen were hiding in the bushes. They heard Mal call Simon a doctor, and that is when they decided to kidnap him.

I've always been of the opinion that River was not walking through the ship, or if she was it was through astral projection.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:40 PM

Hmm, normally I double check to see if the glitch ate my post. Anyway, yeah, what ecgordon said.

As for River in OIS it could be a number of things. One theory I've heard is that she was actually going down into Jayne's bunk for a gun, because people think Jayne is very professional and careful with his guns.

I think she probably just found one of the "in-case-of-ambush" guns taped up somewhere.

But no, she didn't have to be physically walking past any of the crew, unless her ability to read people is dependent on her ability to see them.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:52 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I don't think River was literally walking through the ship in OIS. As was said no one responds to her, not even Simon and Kaylee, so that tells me that she wasn't really standing there in front of them. I do think she was wandering around the ship, just not in the places where the people she is observing actually were. I know she must have been wandering since she found a gun (which I believe someone left out) and then we see her in there with everyone. Bottom line: They absolutely need to keep guns locked in their bunks or keep them on theire person at all times, it is not okay to leave them around where River could accidentally get at them. When you're looking after touched folk you need to make the environment as condusive to that as possible. Period.

I suspect that Jayne isn't all that careful with his guns, sure he treats them well, cleans them maintains them, doesn't like people playing with them, but he seems the type to leave them out and assume that no one will touch them because he's made it clear that they shouldn't. But with River when she isn't lucid it isn't that easy.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 8, 2011 1:13 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
[B

I suspect that Jayne isn't all that careful with his guns, sure he treats them well, cleans them maintains them, doesn't like people playing with them, but he seems the type to leave them out and assume that no one will touch them because he's made it clear that they shouldn't. But with River when she isn't lucid it isn't that easy.

I would disagree with that-- I would think that any person who makes his living with guns knows that they are a lethal force in his own hands, and a lethal hazard in the hands of any other person or in any uncontrolled situation. Therefore,I would think that keeping track of the location of any known firearm not absolutely secured and locked up is a matter of second nature to any such person. I would figure that anybody who doesn't winds up dead, sooner rather than later.
Any of you habitual carriers or security types care to comment?

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Monday, August 8, 2011 1:47 PM

DALEK!

NewOld I'm going to agree with you. I tend to believe Jayne when he says he does not leave his guns out. We also see Simon already talking to her to put the gun down and it seems he came from the common area. So River may have walked through there. Another question, is that the same gun she used in War Stories? If so it was given to Kaylee from the lockers just inside the cargo bay.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 3:18 PM

Ooh, now that's a possibility. Even if the lockers were, well, locked, River would automatically know the combination. There isn't anything that she couldn't get into.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 5:44 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

All they have to do is get some fingerprint recognition locks for the lockers, I'm sure such technology would exist in 2517, you just set it up to only recognize certain fingerprints and check it occasionally to make sure the program hasn't been somehow altered. Or have keys that people keep in their bunks and have locks that use voice recognition to open. Come to think of it they could use voice recognition locks on the lockers. All I'm saying is that we can indeed have a ship that is safe for River and safe for everyone else too, it just takes some thinking outside of the box. They need some new ideas since the current plans weren't working so well come OIS. But it can be mannaged.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:38 AM

I believe River (physical River) was walking around the ship.

The crew ignoring her or not being aware she was there was the design of the episode to compound her sense of not being part of the crew. It's like a visual soliloquoy. Basically it's River saying:

Look I can pass around these people, hear their conversations (in the flesh) yet I'm not a affecting the dynamic. It's like I don't exist...

The way it's filmed is to imply she is just floating around as though she isn't there, but she in fact is. Which becomes all the more apparent when an object (in Space) such as Jaynes gun finds it's self in here very dangerous hands. That object the crew do take notice of, but not River. That (I thought) was the point of the episode.

I also think Jayne would not leave his guns lying around.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:40 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
All they have to do is get some fingerprint recognition locks for the lockers, I'm sure such technology would exist in 2517, you just set it up to only recognize certain fingerprints and check it occasionally to make sure the program hasn't been somehow altered. Or have keys that people keep in their bunks and have locks that use voice recognition to open. Come to think of it they could use voice recognition locks on the lockers. All I'm saying is that we can indeed have a ship that is safe for River and safe for everyone else too, it just takes some thinking outside of the box. They need some new ideas since the current plans weren't working so well come OIS. But it can be mannaged.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

I can see your point on the locks, but we are talking about a ship that worries about running out of food.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:42 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I believe River (physical River) was walking around the ship.

The crew ignoring her or not being aware she was there was the design of the episode to compound her sense of not being part of the crew. It's like a visual soliloquoy. Basically it's River saying:

Look I can pass around these people, hear their conversations (in the flesh) yet I'm not a affecting the dynamic. It's like I don't exist...

The way it's filmed is to imply she is just floating around as though she isn't there, but she in fact is. Which becomes all the more apparent when an object (in Space) such as Jaynes gun finds it's self in here very dangerous hands. That object the crew do take notice of, but not River. That (I thought) was the point of the episode.

I also think Jayne would not leave his guns lying around.

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

I can see everyone ignoring her except for the Captain and Inara. I guess the argument could be made that they did not see her.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:42 AM

DALEK!

Damn double posts!

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 6:33 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I used to think that, that she really was right in front of Simon and Kaylee etc. but then I thought how weird it would be if Simon didn't even talk to her, what kind of crummy caregiver is that? Yes we all know Simon has a lot to learn about how to best look after River, but he loves her very much and I doubt that even the distraction of Kaylee would keep him busy enough not to notice her. Your point about how they only notice the "object" and not River makes sense, but the logistics of it are such that Simon would have said something to her, that's what I think. If Joss had meant it as the symbolic meaning you suggest then he wasn't thinking about Simon's caregiver instincts, which aren't perfect, but his heart is in the right place and he always talks to River when she's there in front of him.

As for the monitary concerns, I know what you mean M52, but this is realllllly important so we need to start saving up for, or rigging up, such devices so everyone can be safe and free to wander and enjoy the ship.

Yes I know I'm heavily biased here, but I doubt too many people come at this situation with my same angle.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 3:38 AM

RionaEire wrote:

Quote:
I used to think that, that she really was right in front of Simon and Kaylee etc. but then I thought how weird it would be if Simon didn't even talk to her, what kind of crummy caregiver is that?

Simon treats River as a patient and a sister, but is less inclined to engage with her when he wants casual conversation... For this, Kaylee takes precedence. That is the purpose of that scene. When he isn't preoccupied with River he's able to laugh and relax and be himself. River is witness to that and that further alienates her from the crew; the crew that is more and more becoming a family unit. (But she must witness it for her to realise this)

RionaEire wrote:

Quote:
If Joss had meant it as the symbolic meaning you suggest then he wasn't thinking about Simon's caregiver instincts, which aren't perfect, but his heart is in the right place and he always talks to River when she's there in front of him.

Joss was thinking about those instincts but this episode is about River seeing (literally) our crew outside of their regular roles, and realising that she doesn't belong. Each member of the crew are partnered up for this moment of realisation, and she has to have been there (physically) to conclude that the crew would all be happier if she weren't there. And thus comes the rationalé that she should be Jubal Early's bounty.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:13 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Okay, building off of that I have a question. At the end of OIS when River says she'll be Jubal Early's bounty, is she serious, or is that still part of her plan to trick him? Most people think it was still part of her plan, that she wouldn't have gone with him, that when River is this lucid she's got a solid plan and that it all fits together. But I don't know what I think. All I know is that my heart breaks for her in that scene, I don't want her to feel unloved and unwanted. Thoughts?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:29 AM

Very possibly both. I could see her hurting and saying that, she's having to deal with the changes that were done to her and that's bound to lead to some depression. Perhaps she's venting some of her real worries and feelings at the moment, but it also happens to make her performance convincing for her trick.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:49 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I used to think that, that she really was right in front of Simon and Kaylee etc.

Everybody seems to be forgetting that the people she watches do turn around and talk to her (apart from Wash and Zoe who are otherwise occupied). River seems to hear their innermost thoughts, but maybe they're actually saying "Howdee, River, how are you this fine mornin'" I'm also guessing that River would be pretty good at sneaking up on people without them noticing.

...but that's still a bit literal-minded. What I see is a glimpse into River's personal "augmented reality" as she thinks about her relationships with the crew. I don't think River knows, or cares, what is real and what is in her head at this point, so why should we?

Also, I think it was established later in this episode that Jayne keeps his guns behind a blanket taped to the wall above his bed.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:18 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

If she didn't get that gun from somewhere misplaced then we've got to get better locks on the bunks, pure and simple, this isn't a luxury, this is a necessity and will make everything safer for everyone.
I don't know the answer to that one Byte, that's why I tossed it out there for others to look at and see what they think.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 1:26 PM

Originally posted by RionaEire:

Quote:
Okay, building off of that I have a question. At the end of OIS when River says she'll be Jubal Early's bounty, is she serious, or is that still part of her plan to trick him? Most people think it was still part of her plan, that she wouldn't have gone with him, that when River is this lucid she's got a solid plan and that it all fits together. But I don't know what I think. All I know is that my heart breaks for her in that scene, I don't want her to feel unloved and unwanted. Thoughts?

I personally think it's part of the plan but it is also said as a way to get the crew's attention. It allows River to highlight her alienation from the group by being so extreme as to say she'll gladly be Jubal Early's bounty. It's a shocking remark for the crew to hear, and they immediately become aware of the way they have been 'overlooking' River as a person.

I think unloved is probably right. River is for much of the show regarded as an oddity. The crew are protective of her but at the same time that doesn't automatically equate with love. And I think it's love that River is most in need off. This episode more than any other illustrates how removed River is from the rest of the crew.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 1:31 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

It bothers me how often River isn't present during crew interactions. Simon keeps her alone too often in my opinion, I don't know what she's always doing, sleeping maybe? I think its important for her to be where everyone else is and as much part of things as possible, that way she feels included and more fulfilled and involved. Besides if she's with us then we aren't wondering where she is and what she might be doing.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 1:33 PM

Originally posted by ImNotHere:

Quote:
Also, I think it was established later in this episode that Jayne keeps his guns behind a blanket taped to the wall above his bed.

This would add credence to Jubal's remark asking Simon if she share's a bunk with any of the crew... Could be she got the gun from Jayne when she paid him a visit...?

*stir, stir*

hmmm

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 1:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
It bothers me how often River isn't present during crew interactions. Simon keeps her alone too often in my opinion, I don't know what she's always doing, sleeping maybe? I think its important for her to be where everyone else is and as much part of things as possible, that way she feels included and more fulfilled and involved. Besides if she's with us then we aren't wondering where she is and what she might be doing.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

I think we also have to be mindful that River is a teen. So maybe prone to outbursts of emotional hyperbole. (At least as a vehicle for the writers to conjure conflict)

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:15 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Could be she got the gun from Jayne when she paid him a visit...?

Ain't gonna happen.

First, Jayne does have some principles. Probably along the lines of "I'd take advantage of a woman if she was comin' on to me, or if I thought she might come on to me, or if I was payin', but take advantage of a teenage girl who ain't right in the head? When did that get fun?"

Second, he's smart enough to know that if he took advantage of River (1) Mal would pound him to a greasy smear on the deck; (2) Wash would make sardonic comments while Zoe pounded him to a greasy smear on the deck (3) Shepard "kneecaps" Book would absolve him of his shins (sorry... sins... easy mistake... I'm sure they'll grow back...); (4) Inara would make earrings out of his gonads (5) His chance of sleeping with Kaylee would reduce from zero to (hmmm... carry the zero) less than zero and (6) after all that, Simon would stay true to his Hippocratic oath and treat his wounds (while apologizing profusely for the inexplicable shortage of sharp scalpels and anesthetic).

Plus River could kill him with her brain (what he doesn't know at this point is that she could also pound him to a greasy smear on the deck).

No, I think that comment was just Early being screwed up.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 10:37 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I agree that the comment was just Early being gross, though to be fair Early doesn't know River is touched, so maybe Early doesn't even know how inapropriate it would be. He does know though that River is 17 though, but you'd be surprised how many people don't see that as an obsticle.

Death To Rayne.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 12:41 PM

I'mnothere.

I'm not saying they did anything or even that Jayne was present to accpet the visit, but that a visit was paid....

But I would suggest this. In writing a TV show very few remarks are thown in without some reasoning behind it.

Could be at a later date Joss had plans for these two and this was but one of the seeds he'd planted. We'll never know of course and it's purely conjecture on my part.