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Originally posted by two:
The comic's full title is Serenity: Firefly Class 03-K64—It’s Never Easy, which is perfect . . . for a technical manual.

SNIP

Did you notice that five people and a big cargo load returned on the mule?
If River had gone to town as Mal expected, that's six people.
Remember Mal's four passenger rule? "Mule won't run with five.
I shoulda dumped the girl? Or you? Or Jayne? Or tossed the payload?"

Does that mean Mal's mule rule was arbitrary? (yes)

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Originally posted by pennausamike:
Like much "canon" in the 'verse, very sloppy.
Anyone remember the timeline in "The Shepherd's Tale"?

Dead Wash, pregnant Zoe, no real story; the 'verse has pretty much flatlined for me.
Darn shame....

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Originally posted by pennausamike:

Dead Wash, pregnant Zoe, no real story; the 'verse has pretty much flatlined for me.
Darn shame....

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Anyone remember the timeline in "The Shepherd's Tale"?

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Dead Wash, pregnant Zoe, no real story; the 'verse has pretty much flatlined for me.
Darn shame....

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1. No, at least I do not think so.

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2. Poor decision not to try on his part

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3. Aunt Kaylee and Aunt Inara!

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
So okay! Topics of discussion!

2) Why didn't Mal use his quick shot ability? Has he been injured or tired or just not able to draw as fast after Miranda?

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By the way, River did worse to six men whose only crime was ugliness in Serenity: Downtime

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One thing I DO find interesting in IT'S NEVER EASY is that Simon thinks River might have shot Mal. This short is the first post-SERENITY appearance of any crew member besides Zoe and, I have to say, River doesn't seem especially sane or "cured." Meaningful, or weak editing?

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I like the gravity explanation. . . .

Maybe River has undeveloped telekinetic abilities that protected her on top of everything else.

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Originally posted by two:
Somebody start a petition. Don't let Zack Whedon cheat on his story-making duties by giving River telekinesis.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
He's not BAD exactly. Although they really need another writer on board because for some reason it seems like the stuff he does write is pretty short and not plot relevant.

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Originally posted by PLATONIST:
Is it just me, or is Mal totally emasculated in this comic?

He doesn’t get a shot off in the stand-off, then he’s saved by River, who can apparently fly now, and then, at the end, he’s being given direction from Zoe, like she’s the new Captain? Is there a subtle role reversal, unbeknownst to Mal, or is Zoe practicing at Captaining her own ship?

And, River doesn't seem to be helping with the piloting, like at the end of the movie...a bit disappointing, I guess.

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Originally posted by RionaEire:
glad to see she's still touched, if she weren't then she'd turn into a Mary Sue and the story would be boring and disappointing for me.

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Not necessarily. A coherent River would still be human, and have shortfalls and failings. There are limits to what she can do.

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There is a big difference between taking away River's quirkyness and truama, and making her sane.

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If the writer givers her faults and frailties, and shows that she is still dependent on others, then no.

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Even if she is still touched, as it was put, she can still be written as a sue. All it takes is those moments of clearity to come at the right times.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Unless the reason she isn't sane is involuntary brain surgery and trauma.

She couldn't even take just medicine to reverse any of that all the way - they're shown helping in War Stories, but she's still... Well, word salad. This is a little beyond even just brain chemistry cocktail, we're talking brain damage here. Even if we weren't trauma doesn't just go away. PTSD is a psychological disorder, someone who has it by definition isn't sane, and the only way to get rid of it completely would be to get rid of the trauma. Instead, you deal with it. You put one foot in front of the other and you hold on as best as you can to where you are now, not where you were then. But you can't escape the memory, it's always there, just as vivid as when it originally happened.

So something intangible like confronting the Miranda secret is NOT going to cut it. It's lazy storytelling, it's these contemptible epiphany therapies that ignore the real world issues and consequences to turn plot and characters around on a dime.

I'm arguing about maintaining an actual realistic portrayal of mental illness, not applying an easy fix and moving on. Otherwise I'm pretty sure the storytelling and characterization would suffer for it.

I'm with Riona, if Zack and Joss continue to write River realistically, then I give them major credit. But if they fix River so they can turn her into a one girl psychic genius army with loads of romantic flings while the crew sits out on the sidelines, which is pretty much the inevitable end result we're talking here, that'd be pretty bad.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:River becomes sane. What frailties and faults does she have left? She is a psychic super soldier trained in infiltration who could take on anything the Alliance sent at her by predicting their every step two moves in advance and kill thirty people violently resisting her in a closed room 15 feet wide by 15 feet long. There isn't anything she couldn't handle on her own anymore at that point. The only thing that could take her down would be an army, but she wouldn't put herself in a position to be facing off against an army.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:True, but it becomes much less likely if you give her abilities some kind of downside or interference.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Here, an example from the supplemental material. In one of the stories in Still Flying, River does try to warn Zoe and Wash that something is going to happen to him. I see a lot of indications that River is trying to prevent something she's foreseen, like in Better Days, Down Time, and The Other Half, and that something is probably the character deaths in the movie.

Imagine if you will that River can successfully communicate all problems that might be coming the crew's way with no problem, because she's now completely sane, and she's no longer inhibited by her fear due to the trauma she suffered at the hands of the alliance. Everything always works out for the crew.

Boring.

Imagine if she can tell them everything clearly, but everything happens no matter what because they can't fight fate.

Pointless.

Imagine if she can't tell them, no matter how much she tries, and she tries her best to stop it on her own, and she can't.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:TRAGIC. And well characterized. Then it becomes not just about River and her abilities, but the group effort to understand and fight, and maybe reverse the bad outcomes. Her abilities are in balance with the rest of the crew, and the rest of the crew have an opportunity to shine and determine the course of their own fates.

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I think you are way off saying that people who suffer from PTSD are not sane. They may not be in perfect mental health but they do have their facilities.

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I simply do not think that post Miranda River has to psychotic breaks, or leave reality. That does not mean she will be mentally fine, it only means she will not be random soup in hair stabbin' crazy.

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She is also not bullet proof, nor is going to start dodging bullets.

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I don't thin she can predict future events. I can accept she can sense what others are feeling. I might be able to take that she could sense somethings. Of course that does not mean she can sense everything and with perfect accuracy, even if perfectly sane. The extent of that ability, or lack of it, is up to the writer.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
The amount that a person with PTSD is affected can vary a lot, but it's a problem no matter how bad it is for them. You're kind of downplaying how serious this is.

In order to be diagnosed with PTSD a person has to be so bad off that it impacts their day to day functioning and relationships. The definition of PTSD is lingering anxiety that affects their behaviour, emotional stability, and judgement and which can spike into serious psychotic episodes and panic attacks.

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I simply do not think that post Miranda River has to psychotic breaks, or leave reality. That does not mean she will be mentally fine, it only means she will not be random soup in hair stabbin' crazy.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Explain how this makes ANY kind of scientific or medical sense. Her limbic system and the moderation of her dopamine levels has been DAMAGED, and even dopaminergic medicines don't restore the balance.

How does getting the Miranda secret out restore her capacity here? Please propose another mechanism as to why River acts schizophrenic that does not involve her dopamine levels or her limbic system and would otherwise have been fixed by Miranda.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It's confirmed she's precognitive, so yes, she is.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Now, how in the black did she get onto Early's ship and hack into Serenity's intercom from there without infiltration training? More than that what use is she as an ASSASSIN if she has no infiltration training? Maybe the alliance intended for her to murder people on the street in broad daylight.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Enjoy ignoring canon then. It's pretty obvious we won't come to terms on this.

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I'm not downplaying it's seriousness, I'm saying I would not call a persopn suffereing from PTSD insane.

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How does a making a precongnitive assasian partly by stipping someone's amygdala make sense? It is called fiction for a reason.

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A good writer will use that. It could even be worjed in that as she gets better, her powers seem to get weaker.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Fine. They have a mental illness that affects their judgement. If they commit a crime during a panic attack or psychotic episode, they can plead insanity.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You HAVE to care about explanations in fiction, YOU WRITE FICTION. Readers have to be able to follow the story, and inaccuracies will knock the readers out of their immersion, and they'll lose interest.

Frankly, the answer to your question can be found in actual human experiments that the NSA and CIA have performed that were accidentally leaked in the family jewels reports.

They found that conditioning training through electroshock therapy and subliminal messaging was very effective, and that victims would execute commands despite the techniques they used turning the victims into psychological wrecks. So I hardly think that's the issue here, and I'd hardly put this past reality.

Where you might be closer to objecting is that stripping the amygdala results in psychic abilities, being that psychic abilities are nonsense.

My explanation is that River was sensitive to electrical fields and impulses in the first place (which is all neurons and brains are anyway), even at long distance, and that what they did to River altered and enhanced her perceptions and sensitivity so much that she could pick up even the smallest neuron impulse like a blip in the electrical field that a human produces. So feelings from other people, she picks them up and her altered amygdala translates that into emotions that she can recognize, and apparently other parts of her brain were modified to do the same for memories. So she experiences those impulses like they were her own. As for the precognition, that's actually probably easier than anything else as that most likely just uses logic, but you could also apply advanced science and say it's a quantum electrical effect, as on a quantum level the future can actually measurably impact the present.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm. Okay, that's actually not a bad idea. Really the only problem I see with it is the improbability that she would ever get better based on what appears to be available in the 26th century, what the crew has, or what they could reasonably steal. But, if you're ignoring the amygdala issue anyway, then that's not going to matter to you.

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It could even be that the Academy did not have a true idea of what they would be used for. One thing that is clear is that having a half insane psychic anything would not be overly useful. Doctor Mathis says they are working to increase she cogent moments.

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I disagree.

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We can see that even with what Simon says she can control her emotions sometimes.

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Fighting a room full of Reavers tends to require a person to push back, or use fear.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It's never actually mattered WHAT the mental state of the dominant personality was, so long as they could flip the switch and have an easily controlled and completely obedient sleeper agent at the ready.

Which is pretty much exactly what River is.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:...About...? I said that I thought that might be a good compromise.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:I actually think that after River was triggered that first time, she became aware of the programming or maybe even an entire alternate split personality. The knowledge or the other personality merged with her dominant personality when she became aware of it, so she could then use all her martial training consciously as River.

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What the point of even having triggers? The whole point would be to have someone that could fit in and lead a somewhat normal life that could be triggered when needed.

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Simon states in Ariel that River feels everything, all of the time because of what they did to her, specifically to her amygdala. We know that is not really correct but we will go with it because maybe Simon is working from future knowledge. That being said we in fact see River able to push back and control her emotions.

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That what is great so many things are possible. In that same vein the joining of of that other personality could also be a route which helps River get better.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Well... Yes and no. That was probably the ideal, but it rarely ever turned out that way. The very methods used to condition and install those triggers tends to be very psychologically damaging. We're talking medically induced comas with endless subliminal messaging on repeat and electrodes to the brain.

And that's when they aren't doing horrific stuff on the SIDE with the victims, like sexual abuse. Which also happened.

Coming out of those places... they weren't ever normal after that. Lot of them snap, kill people or commit suicide, or they go off the deep end in other ways, long slow self-destruction via drugs (sometimes the same drugs used on them, out of addiction), or internalization of the abuse and perpetuating it in secret against vulnerable sorts, kids and such.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think maybe that was meant to have multiple meanings, though maybe not all that Simon would realize. I think how much she can control her emotions depends on the circumstances and medicating influences, early on before Simon really has an idea what's wrong with her and what to give her she's kind of all over the place. But even the medicine isn't quite enough to reverse the other schizophrenic tendencies, the breaks with reality, reduced self-awareness, the world salad. Objects in space is kind of a good example of what River can be like when her PTSD isn't really bothering her, but she's still kind of in and out. At first she's wandering around the ship pretty clearly hallucinating (seeing true things, but hallucinating), later on she outsmarts Jubal Early.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
A split personality is a different problem from limbic system damage. But yes, people can fix problems, or not, in whatever they they think works for their story.

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Talking about real life is all well and good, but in talking about Rivers case you have to give some leeway. If for nothing else it is set pretty far into the future.

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The medication is not enough at the time of Objects. By the start of the BDM who knows how River has been. We get a couple glimpses (what ever they are worth to people) in Those Left Behind and Better days. In one she is so fearful it leads her to overdose. Which for me is a bit out of left field after her being able to deal with Early. Better days she tells a freaky story about marrying a fish. I can see her doing that just to mess with people.

When Serenity starts we see her aware of what is going on. She seems to fully understand what her roll in the job is. Pointing out to Zoe the man that was going to try and be a hero.

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Different problem, but still the same brain. Again River's problems are not coming from random damage that would have unpredictable results.

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Originally posted by RionaEire:
People can write River however they want in fanfic, I can choose not to read River-is-stable-now or River-is-cured-now fics because to me they are BORING.

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Plus the idea of a unified Limbic system is outdated.

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