Wash and Book by BYTEMITE

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Wash and Book

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POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 18:49
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/PIxtbH
VIEWED: 11879
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Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:00 AM

A lot of fanfic writers include them after the movie, often without any explanation about just HOW that happened.

While fun, does it reduce or diminish the emotional impact of the movie?

If Joss could have done the second season of Firefly without any gap after the movie, which would you prefer: dealing with the aftermath of the movie, ignoring the movie, the movie was all River's dream and the second season details River's efforts to prevent certain things from happening, complete series reboot, other?

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Tuesday, September 11, 2012 11:07 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
. . . which would you prefer: . . . the second season details River's efforts to prevent certain things from happening . . . ?

I will take the challenge.

Since I like Doctor Who, my Firefly Season 2 starts this way: River was there when Wash died so she believes she could have saved him if she had had a premonition of his death. Sorry about Book, but since River wasn't there when he died, she can't save him.

River makes plans to telepathically send a message to herself in the past explaining how Wash will die. Everybody knows she's crazy and only sweet Kaylee is willing to give technical help with River's wild plan. Essentially, River is doing fundamental research into the physics of telepathy. Eventually River puts everybody's life at risk. The cliff hanger for Season 2 – does Wash live or does the crew all die together?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:00 PM

ZEEK

I'd prefer they remain dead. They gave weight to the movie. The cast of Buffy and Angel changed over the course of each series. I suspect our crew would have changed with time. Wash and Book are just the first permanent changes.

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Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:48 PM

BYTEMITE

Eventually, characters must have an arc. Sometimes losing other important characters pushes them along. I agree with this. But maybe it wasn't the best time to end these plotlines. Well, Wash gives Zoe her single mother thing, but what is served by having Book die before his secrets can come into play in the story proper? And there might have even been a more interesting use for Wash.

Just exploring possibilities here.

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Tuesday, September 11, 2012 4:25 PM

EBFIDDLER

I think that one of the things I regret most is how Book's secrets were left so underexplored. So I would want whatever approach was taken to include a thorough unraveling of Book's thread, preferably by means of periodic reveals of bits of his backstory, gradually building his character arc over the course of a full season or even more than one season. The episodes gave tantalizing hints about Book; the movie declined to address Book's secrets (explicitly, when the Shepherd answered Mal's request to reveal his past with, "No, I don't"). Even Joss and Co. felt this was an underdeveloped arc, and devoted an entire comic book to it; unfortunately, a comic book is not the ideal medium for exploring something that promises to be so thoroughly twisted and deep.

While Wash's death serves a dramatic purpose in the movie (and it is effective), again, I could wish for more exploration of the character before retiring him. More Mal-Zoe-Wash loyalty triangle tension; more Zoe-Wash "to have kids or not to have kids" discussions; more reveal of Wash's backstory (which we know would involve wacky fun); and especially more married couple dynamics. The death of Wash leaves a serious hole in the cast of characters. I particularly liked the fact that the original crew included a married couple -- a form of diversity that's often ignored on TV (see, interesting adventures don't just happen to single people; and people don't automatically become boring if they're married). It's a little hard to imagine what could fill that hole -- would Simon and Kaylee be precipitated into a married relationship prematurely, in order to take their place?

As a fanfic writer, I've simply accepted the events of the movie and worked with it, while trying to include Book and Wash as characters in the stories as frequently as is reasonable for characters who are no longer living on the ship. But if the TV series were to continue, I think I'd want to see it with Book and Wash aboard.

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Wednesday, September 12, 2012 2:13 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Hello again Byte.

My personal take is that I'd have liked the second season to carry on after their deaths.

To answer your questions:

Quote:
"but what is served by having Book die before his secrets can come into play in the story proper?"

Well there are many narrative devices to have Book's past catch up with the crew without needing the character around. It could still be a major part of a season. As an example, somewhere here at FFF, while we were all speculating, I suggested a scenario where a long outstanding bounty on Book haunts the crew. At the time I think the idea was in the form of a person claiming to be Book's off spring, however that was just a throwaway notion. To my mind there's something grand about Book's spectre (so to speak) haunting the Crew.

°...Well here I am.°

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Wednesday, September 12, 2012 2:48 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

As witnessed by events in both Buffy and Angel, it was pretty much inevitable that all the crew would not have survived a continued series. Joss has said the movie was a condensed version of what might have occurred through Season 2. We'll never know if it would have played out exactly that way, but he endeavored to have the film be as exciting as possible, and as complete a story as possible, since he had no assurances he would get another chance. I have no doubt he has ideas of where he could take the story from here, and I still have not given up hope of seeing some of that, even if it is just in comics. I would love for Joss, or whoever has the rights to do so, to authorize a series of novels instead.

I was as upset as anyone else about Wash's death. I hated losing Book too, but I had already speculated that he would not survive the movie more than a year prior to its release. Any continuation should either be set between the series and movie, or continue after the events of the movie. Both Book and Wash could still appear in flashbacks or dream sequences, or just be referenced by dialog. The movie events should not be ignored. Both characters died a hero's death, and that should be honored and remembered.

But what if someone else had died? What about Inara? How would Mal's arc play out then? Or how would Simon cope if it was Kaylee, just after he had decided to pursue a relationship with her? What if it had been Jayne? Well...Jayne...maybe okay.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, September 12, 2012 3:42 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by Morse:
The series is better off dead. The comics are a commentary of what 'would have happened' should the series have continued. They are all a fuckin' mess.

But I think skipping the movie is best. - But it'll never get resurrected.

I don't know about better off dead... Or the comics, some of them are enjoyable. I liked Better Days the best as it does perhaps the best job of capturing the feel of the series with a bunch of little character subplots going on.

I think maybe even though Joss and his brother have experience with comics and writing comics, they don't really know what to DO with THIS series in comic form. I don't think the problem is that they didn't have ideas for a continuation past the second season/movie, I'm sure they did. Joss himself said he had a five year plan.

(In regards to comics and not bad ones either, Joss has written for Marvel and people think his contributions are pretty good unless they have a hype-hate for him)

So the only way they could ACTUALLY ruin Firefly for me though is if they forget that it's a story about crime and fugitives and turn it into a love boat shipper fest soap opera, where in every episode someone gets sick/nearly dies, a couple hooks up, a couple breaks up, and someone has a baby. Gag.

The very most recent comic was disappointing in it's length, art, and plot holes, but the other recent comics have their positives. They aren't perfect, but neither do I regret buying them.

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Wednesday, September 12, 2012 3:56 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Even Joss and Co. felt this was an underdeveloped arc, and devoted an entire comic book to it; unfortunately, a comic book is not the ideal medium for exploring something that promises to be so thoroughly twisted and deep.

Yeah. Or maybe not THAT comic book necessarily, even though the flashback format was neat, like life flashing before the eyes - a comic book could have worked but it needed to be just the start of a series of comics, where like Somnambulist says, Book's past catches up with them. We're revealed Books past in relevant snippits, but a lot of it still remains a mystery. In the end, all we really know is that Book was seeking redemption for a previous lack of belief in anything and the ruin that caused. Leading to the exchange he has with Mal in the movie.

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Wednesday, September 12, 2012 6:29 AM

ZEEK

One possibility for Book's past to come out is if someone still had access to the feed his eye implant was sending. They could have seen everything going on with River on Serenity. Could lead to a kidnapping attempt or some sort of blackmail.

I'm sure there are plenty of clever ways to have Book's past revealed to the crew over time.

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Monday, October 1, 2012 3:01 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
A lot of fanfic writers include them after the movie, often without any explanation about just HOW that happened.

While fun, does it reduce or diminish the emotional impact of the movie?

Yes. At least I think so. How the crew deals with those deaths have huge story potential.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, October 1, 2012 5:09 PM

BYTEMITE

but, on the other hand, you have the potential stories that can be created if those characters are still alive.

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Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:12 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I like stories where they're still alive, either post BDM or between series and movie, between ones are my favorites though because the movie annoys me, but its not as annoying if Wash and Book survive. I'm an AU kinda gal in that regard.

I would rather see a season two (assuming no one had aged in the last ten years) that takes place between the series and the movie. But in reality, where people age, I'd rather see a spin off with all new charactors with their own ship and their own stories to tell.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:00 AM

BYTEMITE

Alternatively: animated series with the cast all throwing in their voices.

Or eventually someday, a reboot.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2012 7:34 AM

BYTEMITE

Yeah, Wash could have been away setting up a homestead for Zoe and the baby, but both of them are still fighting about whether or not they should even STAY on Serenity... Therefore not really talking to each other, which the crew could comment on in an amusing fashion. I'm sure Mal would have some great annoyed remarks he could make about that situation, especially because Wash would have left him without a pilot during this several months long argument.

And Book could just stay on Haven, helping settlers rebuild, the crew doesn't have to see him every week for him to still have a place in the story.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:31 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Isjonni:
"All nine principal cast members from the television series returned for the movie, although Glass and Tudyk could not commit to sequels, leading to the death of their characters in the script."

Just because it's on a wiki page don't mean it's correct. I'd bet anything that quote is inaccurate. I have never heard either Alan or Ron say anything about not wanting to sign a multi-picture deal.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:42 PM

BYTEMITE

Well, actually I know for certain that Alan and Ron have said really wanted to continue to play Wash and Book. Alan has said he was kinda heartbroken about Wash dying. Joss had to reassure Alan that he'd find a way to include Alan if more Firefly/Serenity was ever made.

So it sounds to me more like the wiki was saying that Ron and Alan had commitments or something.

But you're right, it could just be rumours someone stuck into the article that aren't factual.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2012 3:51 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Isjonni:
Well Whedon says it himself at 3:59.
So it's at least true with regard to Alan.

Now I know something I wish I didn't know about Joss. I am disillusioned.

Wash did not react to the horrifying danger, but when he died the Reavers had to land outside his window, aim their Reaver cannon, and fire. I finally have the real explanation for Wash's inaction -- from this video of Joss.

I was telling myself when I saw the movie for the first time, "Wash, you just got shot down. Check for flames. Look for Reavers. Make speech later." If I'd been a pilot in plane crash, when the plane came to halt I would not calmly sit strapped into my seat and congratulate myself for my luck. I'd jump out of my chair like Wash should have. "Reavers are in front of you, Wash. Shut up and move!"

Because Joss placed the camera to hide from me what should be obvious to Mal and Zoe (unless they are blind - very convenient for Joss' script) the only people who were justifiably surprised by Wash's death was the audience. So . . . Joss kills Wash for the business reason, partially, that Alan Tudyk can't sign a 3 picture deal to play Wash. This is news to me.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:07 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Next time Joss does a Q&A, somebody ask, "How many hours before the first table read with the actors did you decide to kill Wash?" Or, "Killing Wash in one version of the script did not pressure Tudyk to sign a 3 picture deal. Do you regret your hasty and ill considered revision once Tudyk called your bluff?"

I can see the process: Tudyk hasn't signed for a 3 picture deal. Under mild pressure from Universal's legal department worried that Tudyk's agent will demand a salary bigger than Nathan Fillion's for the big damn trilogy, Joss tells prop department to make a headstone for Wash and send it to the conference room where the actors will be meeting; Wash's lines are removed from pages 105 to 126 of the script; secretary makes script copies for tomorrow's table read. Joss is not subtle. He is God.

http://jennielu.deviantart.com/art/Joss-Is-God-330992305

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:51 AM

MOOSE

I can't see the vid on my connection.
Is there any chance that he was just kidding around about that?

I had never heard that reasoning either.

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 3:34 AM

BYTEMITE

I'm sure Joss also always planned to kill Wash anyway guys, it's not like Joss has a tendency to leave his cheerful and non-angsty characters unscathed.

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:09 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm sure Joss also always planned to kill Wash anyway guys . . .

But Joss botched the mechanics of Wash's death scene. He needed to revise deeper than: "Wash baby, oh, baby, please get up!" Why are Mal, Zoe and Wash, especially, completely oblivious to the Reavers waving bye-bye through the cockpit window? Just because the audience can't turn the camera and look out the window doesn't mean Mal, Zoe and Wash can't see Reavers under their noses.

I am guessing Joss forgot that when Reavers can see into a window to aim at Wash, Wash can see Reavers out the window.

Joss could have Reavers blindside Wash by blasting him through the starboard wall of the cockpit. Now EVERYBODY is surprised! It would have looked cool for the Reavers wood lance to come straight at the camera, smashing it. A missed opportunity.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 1:10 PM

BYTEMITE

I always figured the Reavers dropped down on them rather than came at them from in front, and/or that briefly the crew was too busy coming to terms that they where still alive after that crash landing to notice the Reaver ship.

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 1:50 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I always figured . . . that briefly the crew was too busy coming to terms that they where still alive after that crash landing to notice the Reaver ship.

After a crash, a real pilot is hyper-vigilant, looking for more danger coming from any direction.

Wash gets shot down by a Reaver ship that throws lightning bolts. It is an awesome weapon that puts fear into any pilot. But Wash calmly acts like Reavers have run out of lightening, the fight is over, Wash won, peace on Earth. Not believable. I blame Joss for turning on the cool too soon in the scene. Wash is channeling a cartoonish James Bond, 007.

I've seen movie pilots eject and Nazis warplanes return to strafe the parachutes. There is no chivalry when fighting Nazis or Reavers. It is not over until one side is dead, Dead, completely dead. Joss' pilots make speeches, but real pilots don't congratulate themselves for surviving the previous 30 seconds. I am a leaf on the wind . . . doesn't sound right until hours after the fight is over and your heart is beating at a normal rate.

I am a leaf on the wind... watch how I *splat*

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 3:24 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
After a crash, a real pilot is hyper-vigilant, looking for more danger coming from any direction.

Uhhh... You know that personally? Because it seems to me like as soon as the vessel came to a stop, the pilot would be having a "holy $#!% I'm still alive" moment as much as all the other crew and passengers. Kinda like how a driver of a car will take a breath and compose themselves after a near wreck before they can continue. I was pretty sure that's human nature.

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Monday, November 12, 2012 7:42 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by GATORJ:
On the 10th Anniversary show they said the only reason those two characters were allowed to die was because they were not available for a sequel. If the show was to continue in some form, ie TV or movie sequels, and if they were available, I suspect they would be resurrected. It was far too early in a series with a limited cast to kill off two major characters.

At 41:15 into the Firefly - Browncoats Unite video, Joss says, "I don't think I would have killed anybody." Alan Tudyk raises his arms in triumph. Joss' eyes get weepy. I'm thinking that is because Joss accidentally set himself up with a really hard problem of how to bring back Wash. It's a writing problem so difficult that it is eye watering.

Joss did cloning in his Alien Resurrection script, so that avenue is closed, but there are alternatives more fantasy than science-y:
www.etakooramnahsmech.com/?p=259
Whedon . . . You have forgotten me.

www.etakooramnahsmech.com/?p=215

www.etakooramnahsmech.com/?p=65
Use the Force . . . and a team of expensive special effects people.

Firefly - Browncoats Unite

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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