StarGate "Zat Guns" and "freezing while travelling Wormholes by Gavida

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

StarGate "Zat Guns" and "freezing while travelling Wormholes

POSTED BY: GAVIDA
UPDATED: Monday, April 18, 2005 04:09
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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:33 AM

Hi all,

since from time to time people talk about StarGate, I thought that there are some fans here that can help me with some questions.

In the Pilot of the Series the people going through the gate were covered with ice when they arrived on the other side and needed some time to cope with the side effects of travelling through the wormhole.
It was never explained why it doesn't happen anymore after the pilot, if I remember correctly.

Has anyone from the fan side come up with an idea how to explain it?

The only thing I could think of was that the SGC "tweaked" the dialing computer a bit and found a way to compensate for any planetary drift later on and that the "cold effect" was because of the first trips being without the finetuning.
(I actually do not remember if the effect appeared in the movie with Kurt Russell)

Second question is about the "Zat Guns".
One shot stuns, two kill and three disintegrate the corpse.
But everyone watching the Series knows that all the members of the Team have been hit more than once by a Zat.
So do the rules only apply when all shots are from the same Zat?
Or is the effect of the first shot disappearing over time?
I think they said somewhen that it is an energy that messes up the body's bioelectric field or whatever it was called (not too good with words in english, it is not my native language, sorry)

I know that Stargate is not the best Sci-Fi Series there is, but I really enjoy it, the tongue-in-cheek humour between O'Neill and Teal'c is even saving the more cheesy episodes IMHO

See ya,
Gavida

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 4:24 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gavida:
Hi all,

since from time to time people talk about StarGate, I thought that there are some fans here that can help me with some questions.

In the Pilot of the Series the people going through the gate were covered with ice when they arrived on the other side and needed some time to cope with the side effects of travelling through the wormhole.
It was never explained why it doesn't happen anymore after the pilot, if I remember correctly.

Has anyone from the fan side come up with an idea how to explain it?

The only thing I could think of was that the SGC "tweaked" the dialing computer a bit and found a way to compensate for any planetary drift later on and that the "cold effect" was because of the first trips being without the finetuning.
(I actually do not remember if the effect appeared in the movie with Kurt Russell)

I found the whole cold/ice on the team thing odd as it did not appear at all in the original movie.

I think it was something that the writer of the pilot came up with that they decided to leave out of the series afterwards as it was not necessary, did not really add anything to the story, and may have been a real hassle for makeup people to apply everytime someone steps through the gate. I don't think it has anything to do w/ compensating for planetary drift or making adjustments to equipment.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gavida:
Second question is about the "Zat Guns".
One shot stuns, two kill and three disintegrate the corpse.
But everyone watching the Series knows that all the members of the Team have been hit more than once by a Zat.
So do the rules only apply when all shots are from the same Zat?
Or is the effect of the first shot disappearing over time?
I think they said somewhen that it is an energy that messes up the body's bioelectric field or whatever it was called (not too good with words in english, it is not my native language, sorry)

I know that Stargate is not the best Sci-Fi Series there is, but I really enjoy it, the tongue-in-cheek humour between O'Neill and Teal'c is even saving the more cheesy episodes IMHO

The effects of a Zat gun were off after a while and the effect is not permanent or cumulative over time from hits sustained from Zats. One shot stuns and causes great pain, a second hit shortly after the first is more than the average human or Jaffa body can handle and it kills. The third shot disintegrates the body.

Personally I thoroughly enjoy Stargate SG1 and its spin off Stargate Atlantis. I really like O'Niell and I miss his on screen time now that he is in command of SG Command. His dry wit and sarcasm really made the show funny, but I guess w/ Richard Dean Anderson wanting more down time we and the show quality pay the price.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Meet Up:
http://firefly.meetup.com/9/boards/

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 4:57 AM

GAVIDA

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

I found the whole cold/ice on the team thing odd as it did not appear at all in the original movie.

I think it was something that the writer of the pilot came up with that they decided to leave out of the series afterwards as it was not necessary, did not really add anything to the story, and may have been a real hassle for makeup people to apply everytime someone steps through the gate. I don't think it has anything to do w/ compensating for planetary drift or making adjustments to equipment.

Thanks for confirming that it was not in the orginal movie :)

I agree that they took it out of the scripts probably so they were able to keep it at a faster pace.

I was trying to find a more "story-like" explanation, fitting into the SG-Universe and was wondering if anyone came up with a plausible "excuse" for it not being in anymore

Quote:

The effects of a Zat gun were off after a while and the effect is not permanent or cumulative over time from hits sustained from Zats. One shot stuns and causes great pain, a second hit shortly after the first is more than the average human or Jaffa body can handle and it kills. The third shot disintegrates the body.

Thanks for the reply on the Zats.
Kind of what I thought. I was just not sure about the wearing off of the effect and was wondering if I missed some explanation while watching the episodes.

I own Season I - VI so far and started to watch them in english, since I realized that so much of the humour got lost with the dubbing.
Actually all the dialouges are so much better in english.

But there is the risk of missing information when you don't watch it in your native language, hehe.

Quote:

Personally I thoroughly enjoy Stargate SG1 and its spin off Stargate Atlantis. I really like O'Niell and I miss his on screen time now that he is in command of SG Command. His dry wit and sarcasm really made the show funny, but I guess w/ Richard Dean Anderson wanting more down time we and the show quality pay the price.

I guess I will have to cope with that as well, once I reach the Season where he leaves the active duty on SG-1, but I still hope it will be as enjoyable as it is right now to watch.

I had some problems with the show when Michael Shanks left and was replaced by this Jonah-guy, when I watched them on TV (but again it might as well be the german dubbing and the fact that I missed the one or the other episode)

See ya,
Gavida

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:31 AM

KELLAINA

Quote:
In the Pilot of the Series the people going through the gate were covered with ice when they arrived on the other side and needed some time to cope with the side effects of travelling through the wormhole.
It was never explained why it doesn't happen anymore after the pilot, if I remember correctly.

Has anyone from the fan side come up with an idea how to explain it?

The only thing I could think of was that the SGC "tweaked" the dialing computer a bit and found a way to compensate for any planetary drift later on and that the "cold effect" was because of the first trips being without the finetuning.

I may be completely wrong about this but I was under the impression that the cold effect and violent gate exit were the result of not having a DHD (some kind of stabilization thing), and that they simply adjusted the gate program to compensate. I can't remember where this was from though, likely near the beginning of season one.

I enjoy Stargate too! Although I must admit to being slightly disappointed with season 8. It's just not holding my interest. Of course watching the episodes out of order may not be helping.

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:52 AM

TERRANELL

I don't know if it effected the cold/ice of going through the gate, but quite early on in the first season they put stabilisers on the gate (it made the whole place shake before as mentioned in Solitudes) and compensated for the planetary drift (after going to Abydos). The only other time I remember there being ice when they exited the stargate was (in Red Sky, i think) when they overrode the gates protocals and had a rather bumpy ride which makes me think it was a result of an extended or more difficult wormhole journey.

As for not being in the film, lots of things are different from the film not least that in the film Abydos is the other side of the universe where as in the series it is not only in the same galaxy but is the closest planet in the gate system. (and the pre-symbiote Goa'uld looks like a wrinkly evil Asgard)

Stargate continuity isn't the greatest. One of the most notable things is the effect of the zat stun as required by the story. The same person can be completely knocked out by it but three episodes earlier managed to shrug it off quite easily. It's been freely admitted that it is simply down to the requirments of the script.

yeees I have been a little bit Stargate of a stragate geek in the past :D

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:58 AM

RAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Kellaina:
result of not having a DHD (some kind of stabilization thing), and that they simply adjusted the gate program to compensate.

Actually, I think they do explain it that way! But like you, I can't remember where it was from!

What I want to know about the Zatguns, is why when they shoot someone, that someone is stunned. But when someone shoots them, they shake it off!

BTW, I like season 8!!

-Ratboy

edit- I need to refresh more often!

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 7:40 AM

GAVIDA

Guess I have to give the Pilot another go soon.
I think I remember that they mentioned there that they only could go to Abydos because it was the only connection with little planetary shift and that, after Daniel found the Cartouche (sp?) of Abydos they were able to compensate for planetary shifts by altering the program that they used in their dialing computer.

On a sidenote: That was the first time I realized how much got lost with the german translation of the dialogues, when Carter said that they "mcguyvered" together a dialing computer and O'Neill gave her this look. In german she only stated that they needed several years to put it together (no tongue-in-cheek reference to Richard Dean Anderson's probably best known role on TV). So his somewhat irritated glance at her is totally out of context and the joke is lost.

Regarding the Zatgun effect being weaker on our SG-1 "Heroes" than on other people that are shot by it, I also have to check how it was in the first episodes. But didn't they get stunned there as well?
Maybe the body gets kind of used to the effect after being shot with a Zat every now and then, while the Jaffa don't shoot each other with them?

Ok, I am starting to sound like a geek here, trying to fix holes in the storylines and plots :)
But after seeing the DVD Menues with the Chapter selection where you can see small scenes from the episodes I realized, that most of the time I could/would say "Oh, that is the one with the russians", "Yeah, remember that one with the alien pretending to be a member of the team" and so on, so probably I am on my way to geekiness already..... scary, hehe

See ya,
Gavida

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:44 AM

CYBERSNARK

The freezing thing was in the movie novelization (which makes me think it was in the movie script, just not conveyed right on film). It's caused, BTW, by their molecules being compressed when they hit the "exit" side of the gate (think of a crowd of people all walking fast, then the first guy stops suddenly) and are re-combined. The compression is really painful, and slows their molecular movement enough (movement = temperature, remember) that they flash-freeze.

And yeah, I'm assuming there's a safety system built into the Gate itself that the original barely-stable connection to Abydos didn't have.

As for the zats, I'm assuming (from observation) that they work by breaking down molecular electro-chemical bonds --they're disruptors (as opposed to blasters or phasers). The first shot weakens the bonds enough to cause excruciating pain, which would likely be made much worse by trying to move. Two shots breaks the bonds past the point where nerves can sustain life --the heart skips a beat and just won't stop again. I'd guess that if there was a full medical suite literally within arms reach it might be possible to "restart" someone before "too much" brain damage sets in. Third shot completely breaks the bonds, and the remains are vapourized.

So, yeah, the effect would wear off with time, as the victim's bioelectric field stabilizes.

And as for the movie/series continuity, I've been thinking.

I mean, as awesome as it would be to get Anderson & Shanks to go back and redo the movie "as it 'actually' happened," it's not really needed. We know the basics.

Ra's servants being humans and not Jaffa (note their exposed and un-pouched bellies) bugged me until I thought through the implications: Having humans as his personal honour guard (as evidenced by their lack of armour) would be a powerful symbol, and the Goa'uld are all about symbols.

If anyone would've forseen a Jaffa rebellion, it'd be Ra (who, according to the movie novelization, first discovered the Tau'ri millennia ago, and whose human host was himself something of a rebel). He also had a "harem" of young humans, possibly as gifts/hostages from other System Lords. Humans would be even more cowed by his power than the Jaffa, and would be even more hesitant to defy him. The only trade-off is that humans are physically weaker, but if the human-Horus guards in the movie were Ra's personal entourage, he may've (hell, he likely) had massive Jaffa armies back on wherever his throneworld was (probably under Heru'ur's command). Nobody would've dared to attack him; even Apophis and Solkar together wouldn't've had the sheer manpower. It was only after Ra died that Apophis vacuumed up most of Ra's army before Heru'ur could consolidate his power. That's what touched off the Goa'uld civil war that we see in the series.

The only Jaffa Ra would've needed would've been his First Prime --Anubis (the only one in the movie who did not bare his midriff, and could thus have been hiding a Jaffa pouch), who was obviously a symbolic name, adopted after the original Anubis "disappeared." Sort of Ra saying: "Look at the once-mighty Anubis, now my humble servant! Bow before me, for I am your god!"

Yeah, I've put way too much thought into this.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:31 PM

GAVIDA

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Ra's servants being humans and not Jaffa (note their exposed and un-pouched bellies) bugged me until I thought through the implications: Having humans as his personal honour guard (as evidenced by their lack of armour) would be a powerful symbol, and the Goa'uld are all about symbols.

If anyone would've forseen a Jaffa rebellion, it'd be Ra (who, according to the movie novelization, first discovered the Tau'ri millennia ago, and whose human host was himself something of a rebel). He also had a "harem" of young humans, possibly as gifts/hostages from other System Lords. Humans would be even more cowed by his power than the Jaffa, and would be even more hesitant to defy him. The only trade-off is that humans are physically weaker, but if the human-Horus guards in the movie were Ra's personal entourage, he may've (hell, he likely) had massive Jaffa armies back on wherever his throneworld was (probably under Heru'ur's command). Nobody would've dared to attack him; even Apophis and Solkar together wouldn't've had the sheer manpower. It was only after Ra died that Apophis vacuumed up most of Ra's army before Heru'ur could consolidate his power. That's what touched off the Goa'uld civil war that we see in the series.

Hmm, I gave this some thought as well, but came to some other conclusion regarding the human guards in the movie.

Since Ra was "THE" Snakehead in charge and the System Lords seem to have a certain hunger for power I had drawn the conclusion that he used humans as his guards on Abydos because his main army (his battleworthy Jaffa) were garrisoned on the worlds under his control to prevent any uprising from the System Lords or used as occupational forces on the planets in his domain.

So, why draw away some strength from the planets that might need defense when just going to some low-tech backwater planet like Abydos? Some weak troops (compared to Jaffa troops) but still tough and well equipped enough to cope with any possible resistance from a weak population on Abydos.

(Hmm, I have to work on my rethorical skills, using too many words and sentences to describe my ideas, making them a lengthy read)

See ya,
Gavida

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:55 AM

CYBERSNARK

That's a good idea as to Ra's troops being "hosted" among the other System Lords.

I kinda got the impression though that (before Ra's death), the most powerful System Lords were Heru'ur (Ra's son and thus part of Ra's household), Apophis (leader of the "official opposition"), and Solkar (who mostly kept to himself).

I'm assuming that the current power struggle only started after Ra died, and (as word of Ra's demise spread) his Jaffa pledged allegiance to various other Lords. Apophis eventually took out Heru'ur, the Tok'ra blew up Solkar, and Apophis got eaten by Replicators, which led to that coalition that nearly formed. This left Yu and Ba'al (the Backstreet Boy wannabe) as the dominant System Lords until Anubis reappeared. Yu's empire started to decline (after fighting Ba'al and Anubis at the same time), leaving Ba'al as the major power-player.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:11 AM

KELLAINA

Quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kellaina:
result of not having a DHD (some kind of stabilization thing), and that they simply adjusted the gate program to compensate.

Actually, I think they do explain it that way! But like you, I can't remember where it was from!

Oh, good, it's not just me then!

Quote:
What I want to know about the Zatguns, is why when they shoot someone, that someone is stunned. But when someone shoots them, they shake it off!

'Cause SG-1 is special? Honestly I don't know, but I suspect that like Terranell said, it's dependent on the plot.

Quote:
BTW, I like season 8!!

I want to! I'm looking forward to some of the episodes later in the season, I've heard they're pretty good.

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:33 AM

RAE

Anyone know when season 8 is supposed to be released on dvd?

Rae

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:33 PM

LORDKAFER

In the movies Daniel Jackson is obviously rattled and is told, "Keep moving, it wears off in a moment." In all these scenes just after the wormhole trip there is what looks like snow flakes on all the characters and their skin is wet. French Stewart appears to have a frosted face and some of the soldier’s goggles appear to be iced up. Why Daniel’s face is not frosted as well seems wrong as he travelled through last.

To say that there is no "freezing" in the movies seems to be inaccurate. Yes - the freezing is far more apparent in the series. I think they tried to keep some continuity to the movie but ended up outdoing the original.

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:01 PM

GAVIDA

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
That's a good idea as to Ra's troops being "hosted" among the other System Lords.

I kinda got the impression though that (before Ra's death), the most powerful System Lords were Heru'ur (Ra's son and thus part of Ra's household), Apophis (leader of the "official opposition"), and Solkar (who mostly kept to himself).

Hmm, so it could also be assumed that Ra not only garrisoned the planets under his control with his Jaffa and used them to protect his territory against some power hungry Goa'uld, but as well could have sent some troops to Heru'ur to keep his son a strong force too.
(probably the second most powerful System Lord after himself)

That would speak for the theory of taking humans as bodyguards to Abydos as well (imo).
Leave the troops that can do battle as defense in the homesystems (for a lack of a better word), strengthen the son with backups from the own troops so he is able to hold any other System Lord who tries to go for the power at bay (sp?) until he comes back from his trip to Abydos and could take over command in the defense and the probable retaliation himself.

Humans in armour and equipped with staff weapons would still be more than enough against some lowtech population that could.... well.... throw rocks at them, wouldn't they?

I really have to order Season 7 soon at the pace I am watching the show right now :)

See ya,
Gavida

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:18 PM

GAVIDA

Quote:
Originally posted by LordKafer:
In the movies Daniel Jackson is obviously rattled and is told, "Keep moving, it wears off in a moment." In all these scenes just after the wormhole trip there is what looks like snow flakes on all the characters and their skin is wet. French Stewart appears to have a frosted face and some of the soldier’s goggles appear to be iced up. Why Daniel’s face is not frosted as well seems wrong as he travelled through last.

To say that there is no "freezing" in the movies seems to be inaccurate. Yes - the freezing is far more apparent in the series. I think they tried to keep some continuity to the movie but ended up outdoing the original.

Definetly have to rewatch the movie, it has been so long!

But I once realized that I prefer the show to the movie after watching some episodes and watching a rerun of the movie on TV.
Maybe it is because the movie is missing the dry humour and charme the series has.
Or it is just that after so many hours of SG-1 the characters in the movie seem to be "wrong" because of the different actors.

Regarding continuity, I am not sure what you mean by "outdoing the original".
Did you mean, they overshot, or did you mean they made it work better in the series than in the movie?

And a trivia sidenote to continuity stuff:
The character in the movie was "Jack O'Neil" and in the series it is "Jack O'Neill" (RDA more than once states "O'Neill, with two L")

Not sure if it was a mistake in the show script, or if it was for legal reasons.

See ya,
Gavida

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Friday, April 15, 2005 2:55 AM

MAJORCLOD

I remember in an earlier SG1 Episode, where Sam finds out about her old man getting sick. O'niell is being pestered by a reporter trying to find out about the stargate program. He says something along the lines of "It's O'niell, with two L's. There's another Colonel O'niell with one who has no sense of humour at all".

He is referring to Kurt Russell's portrayal of Jack in the movie.

As far as working out reasons why Ra did not have Jaffa bodyguards, I always like to think they were servant Goa'uld. We've seen many servant Goa'uld in the show before.

There are too many continuity differences between the shows to count. There was no such thing as Goa'uld symbiotes, Jaffa, DHD's etc in the film. I think they've done quite a decent job of expanding on the film.

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Friday, April 15, 2005 7:13 PM

LORDKAFER

Quote:
Originally posted by GAVIDA:
Regarding continuity, I am not sure what you mean by "outdoing the original".
Did you mean, they overshot, or did you mean they made it work better in the series than in the movie?

Hmmm, perhaps I’ll leave that ambiguous. For one thing, I don’t own season one on DVD and it’s been a long time since I saw the pilot so my memory of the representation is hazy at best. Certainly though it seems to have been far more noticeable an effect and in that sense it must “work better”. However, that being said, I’ve seen many effects on the series that were dumbed down for TV (probably more because of budget concerns than disrespect for the audience) such as makeup used to show that the character is freezing.

Don’t get me wrong though, I love the series! I like the movie too, but the series is my favourite (when referring to Stargate – Firefly is my true favourite of course:). I’m just not rich enough to buy the TV DVD’s yet.

Quote:
Originally posted by MAJORCLOD:
As far as working out reasons why Ra did not have Jaffa bodyguards, I always like to think they were servant Goa'uld. We've seen many servant Goa'uld in the show before.

Actually that makes a whole lotta sense to me. The other theories I’ve read never settled why there would be more than one type of helmet amongst Ra’s soldiers. There was the hawk helmet of Horus and the jackal helmet of Anubis for instance, both of which have more elaborate workings than the standard Jaffa helmet as seen on TV. Perhaps he has conquered those respective leaders and now he fancies himself some sort of Super Go’auld. Perhaps that’s why Ra’s helmet, a very human face, is so different from any other Goa’uld.

Of course these wouldn’t necessarily have to be the real Anubis and Horus. Maybe Ra made the helmets of his servants look like the helmets of those Goa’uld to mock his rivals (or those he has defeated) in which case it would likely be even more insulting to put these helmets on mere humans.

Of course all of this is only relevant in regards to the TV series and only necessary if you are trying to explain the discrepancies between it and the movie. Actually, if you take the movie as Cannon, Ra was the last of the Goa’uld, and therefore his servant’s could not also be Goa’uld (And if there are no other Goa’uld, then why would he need Jaffa?). Besides they were too wimpy to be Goa’uld.

Still, Maybe they really are the real Goa’uld, just diminished somehow. Perhaps by age or disease of the symbiote they have become weakened. In which cause they may be effective nonentities as far as the Goa’uld are concerned, leaving only Ra as a true Goa’uld.

Actually I have my own theory that Ra is not really a Goa’uld (therefore the last of his kind but not the last Goa’uld) - but I’m sure you’re already convinced I’m just a huge nerd and have skipped most of this post.

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Sunday, April 17, 2005 10:02 PM

GAVIDA

Quote:

Originally posted by LordKafer:

Hmmm, perhaps I’ll leave that ambiguous. For one thing, I don’t own season one on DVD and it’s been a long time since I saw the pilot so my memory of the representation is hazy at best. Certainly though it seems to have been far more noticeable an effect and in that sense it must “work better”. However, that being said, I’ve seen many effects on the series that were dumbed down for TV (probably more because of budget concerns than disrespect for the audience) such as makeup used to show that the character is freezing.

I agree about the effects having to be cheaper in a TV Show than in a movie and therefore being "toned down".
Although Firefly was an outstanding example that awesome effects in a TV Show are possible

I am only guessing here, but when they started to shoot SG-1 no one was able to say if it was going to be a success or not.
So they cut on the production costs after the Pilot by getting rid of some stuff (like the freeze-over makeup).
When I compared some of the episodes from Season I to the ones of Season V (which I am watching at the moment) I realized that with the success of the show the effects got better again (like the Jaffa Pouch, it looked a bit too fake in the beginning of the series, or the other make-ups)

But I still think that it was also a decision for a faster pace to get rid of the freezing effect.
Imagine the Team going through the gate, being frozen and nauseaus (sp?) when on the other side there is a Jaffa ambush. SG-1 would get shot, captured or killed and the series came to an end early.

Quote:

Originally posted by LordKafer:

Don’t get me wrong though, I love the series! I like the movie too, but the series is my favourite (when referring to Stargate – Firefly is my true favourite of course:). I’m just not rich enough to buy the TV DVD’s yet.

I do love the series as well. And it really is close second to Firefly for me.

Quote:

Originally posted by LordKafer:

Actually that makes a whole lotta sense to me. The other theories I’ve read never settled why there would be more than one type of helmet amongst Ra’s soldiers. There was the hawk helmet of Horus and the jackal helmet of Anubis for instance, both of which have more elaborate workings than the standard Jaffa helmet as seen on TV. Perhaps he has conquered those respective leaders and now he fancies himself some sort of Super Go’auld. Perhaps that’s why Ra’s helmet, a very human face, is so different from any other Goa’uld.

Of course these wouldn’t necessarily have to be the real Anubis and Horus. Maybe Ra made the helmets of his servants look like the helmets of those Goa’uld to mock his rivals (or those he has defeated) in which case it would likely be even more insulting to put these helmets on mere humans.

Not sure if I am mixing up something here, but wasn't Anubis presumed dead by the System Lords? (at least I think it is said in the series, I think in "The Summit", don't nail me on that one, sitting in the office and trying to remember from the top of my head)

So that could explain Anubis' helmet in the movie. Ra used the old equipment of a Goa'uld that was considered "gone".
The suit of armour from a Goa'uld probably has more technical possibilites than the "standard" suit as seen on the show, so maybe he would give such a nice suit to someone he trusted (and/or mind controlled) to be the best possible equipped body guard.

Not sure how to explain Horus' suit though, have to check the "history" on that Goa'uld

Quote:

Originally posted by LordKafer:

Of course all of this is only relevant in regards to the TV series and only necessary if you are trying to explain the discrepancies between it and the movie. Actually, if you take the movie as Cannon, Ra was the last of the Goa’uld, and therefore his servant’s could not also be Goa’uld (And if there are no other Goa’uld, then why would he need Jaffa?). Besides they were too wimpy to be Goa’uld.

Actually I am not sure if I want to take the movie as Cannon. Don't get me wrong, I liked it and the idea in it really hit a nerve somehow when I watched it in the theatre, but somehow I do prefer the show, storywise and backgroundwise.
The Series has a far more fleshed out universe to immerse in.

Maybe the discrepancies between the show and the movie could best be explained with the following:

Movie = What the humans knew then
Show = What the humans learned later

(I am always trying to find an explanation that fits into the universe, just saying "glitch" or "different writers" or something like that doesn't work for me, hehe)

Quote:

Originally posted by LordKafer:

Still, Maybe they really are the real Goa’uld, just diminished somehow. Perhaps by age or disease of the symbiote they have become weakened. In which cause they may be effective nonentities as far as the Goa’uld are concerned, leaving only Ra as a true Goa’uld.

I like the idea. Maybe Ra was the last "true" Goa'uld and the System Lords from the series are kind of evolutionary degenerated Goa'uld?
Their genetic code "tainted" by the use of Jaffa as incubators.

Whew, guess this is long enough now. Thanks for reading my ramblings

See ya,
Gavida

Edit: Fixed a "There/Their"-Issue :)

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Monday, April 18, 2005 3:56 AM

CYBERSNARK

Well, I'm assuming that Faux-Anubis (in the movie) was Ra's First Prime; the head of his army (like what Teal'c was for Apophis). Note that Anubis' costume covered his stomach (where none of the others' did), so he could very well have been an actual Jaffa. Anubis also seemed to have a somewhat closer relationship with Ra than any of the Horus guards, what with their occasional non-verbal communication. It'd make sense for Ra to set up a hierarchy in his staff; wouldn't want the priviledged human Horus guards to start thinking they were equals to Jaffa, after all.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gavida:
Not sure how to explain Horus' suit though, have to check the "history" on that Goa'uld

In the show, the Horus were Ra's personal army/guards. They only turned up when Heru'ur appeared, which is what makes me think that Heru'ur had the job of commanding Ra's actual forces on the System Lord level (Ra technically being an Overlord, like the difference between a High King and a King).

Originally, there were three great legions of guards, equating to those who were once the greatest System Lords before the rise of Ra. The Serpent guards were used by Apophis, the Horus guards served Ra, and the Setmos guards served Set (Teal'c told what was apparently a very funny joke about the Setmos that kinda died in translation).

These account for "masked" soldiers; other ("lesser") System Lords seem to rely on unmasked Jaffa, just with the standardized forehead tattoos. (Incidentally, anybody notice a really high percentage of Ra/Heru'ur's falcon-tattoo among the Jaffa rebels? Kinda makes sense that Ra's army would have a higher number of deserters, since he was the first Goa'uld Lord to die in recent memory.)

Presumeably, Anubis had his own legion, who likely vanished with him, and so are less well-known/remembered than even the Set guards. That's probably where Ra got that mask for his servant.

Mythologically, Horus was the son of Osiris & Isis. Isis was pregnant when Set killed Osiris. After Horus was born, he killed Set (meanwhile, Isis was gathering up Osiris' remains and reviving him with a sarcophagus).

When Osiris appeared on the show, I kept hoping for some reference that he or Isis had founded the Horus legion millennia ago and used it to destroy Set (securing Ra's ascent to power), then given it to Ra (to secure their favour in Ra's new order).

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, April 18, 2005 4:09 AM

GAVIDA

I am not sure about the "masked" and "unmasked" soldiers.

Maybe it is kind of "line soldiers" (unmasked) and special troops (masked)?

I can't say that I gave much thought about the organisation of the Goa'uld armies, but maybe the unmasked are the cannon fodder and the masked ones are the guys that get going when the going gets tough?

And having many Jaffa rebels with Ra and Her'ur tatoos makes sense. After their defeat it must have taken the remaining 'lesser' System Lords some time to absorb or assimilate the remaining forces of Ra and Her'ur. So they had the chance to free their minds from the indoctrination of their "gods".
I would presume that the death of your god makes you wonder if your beliefs are really that waterproof.

See ya,
Gavida

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