Pan’s Labyrinth by Finn mac Cumhal

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Pan’s Labyrinth

POSTED BY: FINN MAC CUMHAL
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 13:32
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3010
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Tuesday, July 10, 2007 6:56 PM

Pan’s Labyrinth (El laberinto del fauno)

I can’t remember why I didn’t go see this at the theater, but later when I viewed the trailer again, I can imagine that that must have been it. The trailer was really stupid, mostly because no one talked and the voice over embellished the story so much that it seemed a little uninteresting. The reason for the crappy trailer, I now know, was because this is a foreign film. I missed this magnificent film at the theater because the crappy trailer didn't want to reveal the Spanish dialogue? Anyone else miss this film?

Anyway, after reading some reviews, I decided to buy the film. I know nothing of Spanish and my Italian isn’t good enough to compensate, so I had to rely totally on the subtitles for meaning. I’m going to watch it a couple of times, time permitting, to make sure I get the dialogue right, but my initial impression is extremely positive. I would say that this movie is one of the best of 2007, probably second only to Terabithia (except that technically Labyrinth is a 2006 movie). Both Labyrinth and Terabithia are stories about coming to terms with the difficulties of adulthood, but in Labyrinth’s case those difficulties are the Spanish civil war and the horrific conditions set upon Spain by the Fascist leader Francisco Franco, making Labyrinth very dark compared to Terabithia.

The heroine is Ofelia, the bookish 10-year old daughter of the widowed pregnant newly wed wife to Vidal, a high ranking officer in Franco’s Fascist Spain. Ofelia is played by Spanish actress Ivana Baquero, and the camera adores her. She engrosses herself in books of fairytales to escape the horrors of the brutal Spanish Civil War in which her father was killed as a traitor, and she and her mother have been relocated to a remote bleak wilderness villa outside of Madrid. Although Ofelia, as a child, is not directly involved with much of the horrors that take place, and in many ways is quite protected from them, she is not unaware of the terrible conditions and senses the deep sadness in her mother. While exploring the woods around her new home she encounters the old ruins of a pre-Christian underground temple and meets a Faun that informs her that she is the lost princess of a magical and peaceful kingdom and that she must fulfill three tasks to return. Ofelia lives in two worlds, both deeply shrouded in sorrow. The “real” world of cold-blooded fascism that she desperately seeks to escape and the “fantasy” world of magical fauns, child-eating Pale Man and giant frogs, which in many ways in as putrid and evil, but in it she finds hope, something absent from the real world.

Captain Vidal is a high-ranking officer in Franco’s new Fascist Spain. He is a monstrous man, and perhaps the vilest villain in movies. His first introduction to Ofelia is a cold threat to a frighten girl. He beats in the faces of innocent men and kills remorseless. He takes sadistic pleasure in torturing prisoners. He is truly despicable, but not unfeeling. He does seem to love his new wife and unborn son, though his affection is not unconditional. He demands obedience to the Fascist order, and anything less is unworthy of life. But more then that he has found this brutal Fascist society as an outlet for his own sadism and narcissism. Some would say he may be a too evil to be believable, but I never had a problem believing that such a man could exist and probably did in Fascist Spain.

Throughout the movie you are enchanted by Ofelia’s sorrowful eyes and her desperate search for hope and disgusted by Vidal’s merciless, unremitting hate. Baquero plays Ofelia magnificently, never overreaching, always lost in the quite pathetic shock of a terrorized child but also with that spark of imagination and exploration, always hoping for freedom from the sorrow. The two, Ofelia and Vidal, seem separate entities but they are unwittingly embraced in battle of good vs evil, innocence vs. perversion. A battle that plays out in two separate worlds and only becomes apparent to the two in the end. And the end is something that people will talk about for a long time – what it means, what happened and how. You’re interpretation of it will shade your perception of the whole movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457430/

http://www.panslabyrinth.com/

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I missed it, mainly because it didn't get much pub. I have it now, via blockbuster, and am just waiting for a good time to toss it in the dvd player. Will comment afterward.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:03 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I loved it.

http://templetongate.net/panslabyrinth.htm

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:05 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I actually saw this one on the big screen, it took some doing to find a theatre running it, and I was kinda twitchy that things wouldn't carry so well in subtitles.

I need not have worried.

Finn hits it pretty good, overall, so I have little to add but I'll add it, I guess.

Not only the score, but the audio itself is of amazing quality, something a bit less noticeable but it adds well to a story that is throwback classic to when Faery Tales were actually scary.

Mariel Verdu? I think, was absolutely out-friggin-standing in a glorious piece of a rather different kind of heroism, she really shined as Mercedes, and one would hope she gets more work in the future.

All of the main characters were very striking, with excellent performances, but Mercedes stood out all the same.

This one is gettin bought and put on the DVD rack, and I can offer it no higher praise than that.

-Frem

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:44 AM

REGINAROADIE

You know, I think I might be one of the few people who wasn't ecstatic about it upon seeing the movie. Yes it was enjoyable, but not on the same level that everyone else puts it on. I kinda thought it was just another bit of garden variety fantasy with a nice bit of Spanish flavor attached to it.

Other than that, nothing to really write home about.

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"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:42 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I actually like garden-variety fantasy. I pretty much flipped over the Chronicles of Narnia and the Lord of the Rings, but I have to admit, I have a hard time thinking of Pan’s Labyrinth as ordinary fantasy. It strikes me as fairly original.

It has certain similarities to Narnia, but they seem superficial. Both movies are set against the back drop of World War II and both are about children (child) escaping the harsh realities of war and struggling to negotiate the complicated arena of adults by retreating into a fantasy realm of imagination. I think though that Pan’s Labyrinth puts a much darker spin on the story and brings it up much closer to the reality part of the equation. Narnia was a metaphor, but Pan is a more explicit examination of a child’s imagination and retreat from reality. Narnia also had a much more optimistic and encouraging theme, where it is really hard to find much in Labyrinth that is too optimistic. Although it really depends, I guess, on how you interpret the ending.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:50 PM

TRAVELER

I went to this movie with a friend. He was disappointed to discover it was subtitled.

It's Spanish! Well I am used to that. I see a lot of foreign and independent films. I only get upset if the dialogue is so much you end up reading and not watching the movie. This one was pretty good. The scenes, both in our world and the one Pan entered were to good to bury with dialogue.

An author can create a world with candy mountains and live with rainbows overhead or create a world that requires you to make choices that will effect you and the others around you. This is the true spirit of what fantasy is all about. Lessons in behavior, responsibility and what the real rewards are for your actions. Fantasies were written to teach children these lessons. I think adults should return to them over and over to see if their lives are on the right path.

This story put this together well. The adults are to blind to see their way through the Labyrinth. The child, who must face the trials and not let the adults around her cloud her judgement, is the only one who finds the right path.

"Pan's Labyrinth" may not be epic like "Lord of the Rings", yet it holds true to what good fantasies are all about.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 2:19 PM

ODDSBODSKINS

And that, Traveler, I think says so much about why this film is so well worth seeing, it can be so many things to so many people ^^

I must confess, I hadn't looked at it that way at all, what I took from the film was much darker, and largely related to the brutal realities of life in Franco's Spain, What made Pan's Labyrinth 'good' fantasy to me was that the 'fantasy' elements were used so well to contrast and illustrate this shocking reality.

That the same film could leave us both seeing such different meaning, and presumably reading so much of it from a decidedly ambiguous, and hugely satisfying, ending, is quite the feat ^^

Just as a wee aside, completely different topic, foreign movies are a doddle, movie in one language, subtitle's in English is easy. I's watching an English movie, with English subtitles, to help my (Polish) flatmates make more sense of the dialogue, now that screws with your head

Now I just need to get stuck into the box set, see if Cronos and The Devil's Backbone are on par. 'Backbone looks akin to 'Labyrinth in it's subject, but horror rather then fantasy. Looking forward to them, will report back, and hope no-one who has seen them spoilers them for me xD

They may think their sins are original, but for the most part they are petty and repetitive.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 3:15 PM

TRAVELER

Hello Oddsbodkins:

We all come from different perspectives and see or read each story from our own experiences or expectations. My life has gone through so many changes that I may have seen this movie from many different points of view at different times in my life. I still think I would have liked it.

It was awhile ago since I have seen a foreign film. It was also Spanish. "All About My Mother".
Also subtitled. Not a fantasy, but a very different world from the one I live in.

I guess we are lucky to have theaters that will show these films. I suspect there are a lot of people who don't get the opportunity to see them.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:54 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I’ve watched Pan’s Labyrinth probably a half dozen times this week, in many cases forgoing my normal evening ritual. I’ve really become captivated by the spirituality and the depth of this story. I’ve had a lengthy dialogue between some friends over email and other boards about this movie and I thought I would collect the gist of my thoughts here in an analysis of the Symbolism of Pan’s Labyrinth.

Take note of portion markings. Major spoilers abound.

Select to view spoiler:

What does it all mean?
[MAJOR SPOILER] The main protagonist is Ofelia. In Shakespeare’s Hamlet, there is a character named Ophelia, a young girl who is in love with Hamlet and hopes to marry him. But Hamlet rejects her and later kills her father, which drives Ophelia mad, because she is unable to cope. Ophelia dies when she falls into a brook and is unwilling to save herself, but in her view she is committing suicide to save herself from the torment set upon her by the chaotic lives of others. So Ofelia (the Spanish spelling of Ophelia) is a girl who, having grown up knowing nothing but war, is struggling to cope with the chaos set up her by others. In Pan’s Labyrinth, Ofelia struggles to escape a hopeless world, finding escape only in death.

[MAJOR SPOILER] Ofelia’s imaginative fairytale journey not only provides a mechanism to escape the harrowing world around her, but it will also help her to trust herself, and in doing so she will discover a hidden truth, lost in a world that has succumb to chaos. In the end Ofelia rejects her own fairytale world when she refuses to allow the Faun to sacrifice her baby brother. Ofelia has learned the lesson that no one else has taught her. The hidden truth that Ofelia learns is to rely on her heart and her conscience above her mind, to love her brother above her belief in fairytales, even though her fairytales are the only thing she has left to keep her sane. Sacrificing an innocent life for an ideology is wrong. This is a lesson her nemesis, Captain Vidal, cannot understand and cannot learn so he shoots Ofelia for disobeying. Not all heroes and heroines are fighters, like Mercedes. Sometimes a heroine is a child that learns a truth about humanity all by herself, even though nothing about her world suggests it.

[NO SPOILER] Ultimately, what this story means is that good is eternal. It exists, and even though no semblance of it can be found, a child can figure it out. So you see, while Pan’s Labyrinth may be disturbing and unnerving, underneath it all, it is a story about hope and faith. Good is always with us if we trust ourselves enough to believe in it.

The Fairytale
[NO SPOILER] Fantasy, good fantasy, is all about the symbolism. And all of Ofelia’s fairytale encounters are symbolic of thoughts and emotions awaking within her as she grows and learns.

The Faun.
“I've had so many names. Old names that only the wind and the trees can pronounce. I am the mountain, the forest and the earth. I am... I am a faun.”
-- The Faun

[NO SPOILER] The Faun is the old folklore. The cumulative knowledge of humanity passed down in its morality, ethics and wisdom. It is the natural conscience of man, those “unwritten and unfailing statutes of heaven,” that Sophecles spoke of. Essentially, the faun is humanity and morality, inscribed in the folklore, religions and fairytales throughout history. It is neither good nor evil, but like knowledge, can be used either way, and often does not seem to be what it is.

[NO SPOILER] It also represents something about Ofelia. The Faun is Ofelia’s inner persona, the fear, the confusion, and the innocent knowledge that she has learned.

The Toad.
“Once upon a time, when the woods were young, they were home to creatures who were full of magic and wonder. They protected one another, and slept in the shade of a colossal fig tree that grew on a hill near a mill. But now the tree is dying, its branches are dry and its trunk is old and twisted. A monstrous toad has settled in its roots and won’t let the tree thrive.”
-- Ofelia

[MILD SPOILER] The Toad is a stock fairytale creature. It represents the way Ofelia examines the world around her, as imaginative fairytales. This is her first task, and it is fitting that it be such a common fairytale creature. She encounters the Toad and tricks it into giving her a key. The books of fairytales she reads are like the Toad. They are stories that seem grotesque and disturbing but from them, if Ofelia is brave, she can unlock the lessons, the morals, hidden inside. Ofelia completes this task and is rewarded with confidence, because now she has the ability to find the answers she seeks, if she can be brave.

[MILD SPOILER] The Toad story also represents something about totalitarianism. The Toad is the established nobility and elite that grows wealthy at the detriment of the people. In the “real” world society, there is also a key that is used to lock the door to the provisions being held by Vidal at his outpost. Vidal is rationing these resources to control the population, but once the people worked for these resources and did not need an aristocrat to ration them. Vidal is the Toad, which grows wealthy and powerful, while the people starve, and the key is a symbol of his total authority.

The Pale Man.

“You’re going to a dangerous place, so be careful. The thing that slumbers there is not human.”
-- The Faun.

[MILD SPOILER] The Pale Man is cryptic and disturbing. It represents Ofelia’s basal inner persona, her greed, her selfishness. She is told not to eat from the table of food when she is in the Pale Man’s lair, but she disobeys. Ironically, she disobeys in part because she is now confident in herself. This is the other side of her bravery. Learning to be brave and find the solutions to the problems in life is only part of the lesson; the other part is constraint. But Ofelia fails this task, because she gives into her greed and eats from the table, which awakens the Pale Man. The Pale Man is a hideously disturbing figure that devours little girls, but whose eyes are in his hands. The Pale Man cannot see and devour at the same time, so that when he is in the act of devouring he is powerless. This is greed. Greed is in all of us. It cannot be washed away. It will always be there to tempt us and when we give into it, we will be defenseless and put at risk. Ofelia learns this lesson only by failing the task and narrowly escapes being devoured.

[NO SPOILER] Some have said that the Pale Man represents the Catholic Church, an institution which dispenses morality and guidance to the people, but when it attempts to involve itself directly in politics, it is unable to see the harm that it does. This could be an interpretation, but it is not directly born out by the events in the film and I think that a broader interpretation is need. The Pale Man could represent the Church, but also represents the Rebels, the war, collateral damage etc. It represents the often unintended and sometimes unforeseen terrible consequences of the actions of good men.

[NO SPOILER] Following the Pale Man episode, we learn that the rebels have reinforcements arriving. Dr. Ferreiro and Pedro (the rebel leader and Mercedes brother) have an argument, in which Ferreiro objects to the escalation of force, and tries to convince Pedro to take care of his family and stop the insurgency:

“And then what? You kill [[]Vidal[]] they’ll send another just like him. And another... You’re screwed, no guns, no safe shelter... You need food, medicine. You should take care of Mercedes. If you really love her, you’d cross the border with her.” – Dr. Ferreiro

[MILD SPOILER] But Padro’s answer is zealous. He knows the doctor is probably right, but he’s willing to reek destruction just to confront Vidal. And so the conflict starts for real now and many die or worse.

The Final Task.

“I’ve decided to give you one last chance. Do you promise to do what I say? Will you do everything I tell you without question?”
-- The Faun

[MILD SPOILER]The last task is different from the others, because Ofelia has learned all she can from fairytales alone, now her next lesson she involves the real world. Ofelia is brave now and confident in her ability to negotiate the obstacles before her. She is wise now, and knows not to allow her basal ambitions to distract her from the real goal. The last is the most important lesson; Ofelia must take her brother from the throne room of the evil Vidal, and bring him to the Faun.

[MAJOR SPOILER] In a way, Ofelia appears to have gone mad, like the Ophelia of Hamlet. She is risking not only her own life, but the life of her newborn brother. But beyond Ofelia’s imaginary world, her mother has died, leaving Ofelia with an enormous sense of loss, and so she embraces here fairytale world even stronger now. She has lost her mother’s love and attention, but she is also now unprotected in an unpredictable and violent world, and her deepest thoughts are to escape away from Vidal in any way possible. It’s a foolish move, but she doesn’t feel she has any option.

[MAJOR SPOILER] Once she cleverly escapes away with her brother in arm, she runs to the Labyrinth to meet up with the Faun and fulfill her final task, but when she gets there she discovers the Faun’s intent is to sacrifice her little brother to save her. Without even considering the option, she refuses, and in doing so she learns the final lesson. Not to follow blindly the rules of man or fairytales, but to put her compassion and love, before her beliefs. Her fairytale world guided her and taught her and was indispensable in giving her a base upon which to secure her sanity in a cruel world, but her final lesson is to understand not to be driven blindly by that belief.

The Faun: You would give up your sacred rights for this brat you barely know?
Ofelia: Yes, I would.

Ofelia’s beliefs are now mature.

[MAJOR SPOILER] After she rejects the Faun, she is met by Captain Vidal, who takes the infant and shoots Ofelia. Vidal cannot learn the final lesson. He is driven by his ideology, blinded by his hate, and unable to view Ofelia, even as a child, as anything other then an enemy. But Vidal also fears death. He secretly obsesses over it. The watch he carries reminds him he only has so long to live. And that fear of death makes him weak. But as he leaves the Labyrinth he is met by the resistance which has overrun the villa, and knowing that all is lost, he gives up the child, but only asks that the child be told the time his father died, as his father did him. Instead he is told that his son will never even know his name and is shot dead.

[MAJOR SPOILER] Ofelia dies, as her blood drips down into the temple, opening the door to the magical kingdom and allowing her to finally enter, as Princess Moanna. Ofelia has shown us how a true hero dies. Not as a cruel and selfish man driven by a ruthless ideology, but as a brave, wise and compassionate protector of those who cannot protect themselves. With Vidal conquered, there is the promise of a new world and a better world, but it is still a world full of sorrow and will always be, because the actions of men are imperfect. But good does exists and it can be found if we are brave enough and wise enough to seek it. The contrast between Ofelia’s return as Princess Moanna to the golden underground kingdom and Mercedes tearful sorrow over Ofelia’s dead body is heart wrenching, but Ofelia is in a better place.

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Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

OK, I saw the movie. Subtitles didn't bother me a bit. Found 'em kinda fun, actually. The movie ? Slow. Graphic. Violent. Dark. Sad. This ain't Shrek. Parts were visually interesting, imo, but wow...what a downer of a movie.

Select to view spoiler:

The little girl gets SHOT and dies! How fuckin sick and twisted is that ? I got the distinct impression that the entirety of the fariy tale story this was only in her head, as she tried to escape the cruelity of the real world.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, July 15, 2007 4:36 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
OK, I saw the movie. Subtitles didn't bother me a bit. Found 'em kinda fun, actually. The movie ? Slow. Graphic. Violent. Dark. Sad. This ain't Shrek. Parts were visually interesting, imo, but wow...what a downer of a movie.

Sounds like you didn’t care much for it? It was slow, graphic, violent, dark and sad, very sad. It’s also blatantly political. All of which, may set the film outside or at the fringe of what many people like in their fantasy.

Also I should revise my recently overstated position on Vidal. I think I’ve been convinced that Vidal is a little too one-dimensional. He comes across as too evil to really be real. I think if the watch-thing had been expanded on to give some context to why he is the way he is, it would have made a lot of difference, but it’s not evident enough, and that does hurt the film’s sense of balance.

That the film was in Spanish was a big plus. The alternative would have been that the film was in English with Spanish accents, but since the story is set in Spain with all Spanish characters, it really doesn’t make much sense that they would speak English. Frankly, I’ve become increasingly sensitive to this, partly because Mel Gibson has shown me that the original languages can add a lot more realism and authenticity to a film then it detracts from the meaning. So that all the characters in the film spoke Spanish felt much more like a product of the setting then where the film was made.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Select to view spoiler:
The little girl gets SHOT and dies! How fuckin sick and twisted is that ? I got the distinct impression that the entirety of the fariy tale story this was only in her head, as she tried to escape the cruelity of the real world.

Select to view spoiler:

Killing Ofelia was pretty bent, even though it seems pretty critical to the story.

Killing children on screen has been a taboo in film for a very long time, but recently, it seems that this has become more tolerable, maybe even acceptable. I’ve not seen the recent Pirates of the Caribbean film, but a friend was telling me that a young boy is hung in the first few scenes, and this is supposed to Disney.

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Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:43 PM

COSMICFUGITIVE

Bizarrely, I recently bought this DvD when I was on holiday. I sat down and watched it yesterday.

For AGES, one of my friends on this site recommended that I watch it. I love foreign language movies. It is a cracking movie. Although, if I were to nit pick, I felt that the direction/plot maybe lagged slightly in parts. On the plus side though, it's enchanting, gritty and dotted with dark humour throughout. The sfx and creature make up is gorgeous to look at. The musical score caught my attention too.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:17 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by CosmicFugitive:
Bizarrely, I recently bought this DvD when I was on holiday. I sat down and watched it yesterday.

For AGES, one of my friends on this site recommended that I watch it. I love foreign language movies. It is a cracking movie. Although, if I were to nit pick, I felt that the direction/plot maybe lagged slightly in parts. On the plus side though, it's enchanting, gritty and dotted with dark humour throughout. The sfx and creature make up is gorgeous to look at. The musical score caught my attention too.

There actually were some pretty confusing issues with the story.

First of all the movie is politically naïve. It depicts the Fascists as the unparalleled bad guys, but fails to provide the same context into the rebels. In the movie, there is no origin or base of operations for the Rebels. They simply appear out of the woods to fight evil. Now one explanation for the naïve way the story is told is that Ofelia is naïve, and therefore the story as seen through her eyes is distorted by her innocent ignorance.

I think it over emphases the fantasy of fairytale narrative, and as a result it undermines Ofelia’s fairytale world making her seem something of a crazy person, even for a weird child.

Select to view spoiler:

The ending of the movie is confusing too, because Ofelia, after insisting that her brother stay with her, when faced with the questionable motives of the Faun, which she perceives to be a friend or mentor, but willingly gives up her little brother with no struggle to Vidal, whom she knows to be an evil man. Ofelia was courageous and heroic for taking her brother and escaping Vidal, but turns him over without a fight. The moral is do the right thing when faced with the easy option of disobeying a friend, but do the wrong thing when faced with a man with a gun? How is that courageous or heroic? So the story undermines the heroine by presenting her as holding a double standard. Vidal shoots Ofelia, which in a way is fitting because she has abandoned virtue.

I don’t think this was a mistake or an oversight in the story – I think it was deliberate, because Ofelia’s little brother represents the Christ Child. Ofelia’s refusal to abandon her brother to the capricious whim of the Faun, but quickly turn the child over to the brutal Fascist with a gun is making a statement about a perceived hypocrisy in the Church. Del Toro is saying that the Church claims to be protecting virtue by refusing the old religions or more generally guarding morality, but then submits to the ruthlessness of totalitarian statism. Once again it is somewhat of a naïve perspective.

A problem emerges however, when Ofelia is praised for her righteous decision. She goes to heaven or some parallel and is rewarded for her decision, which is very confusing, unless her accent into heaven is just sarcasm or satire, perhaps speaking to the way the church supposedly presents itself as righteous despite its perceived hypocrisy.

The ending gets messy if you try to think too hard about it. I’m not sure Del Toro really thought it threw all the way either. I prefer my perhaps overly simplistic interpretation to this naïve and confusing one.

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Tuesday, July 17, 2007 6:08 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Sounds like you didn’t care much for it? It was slow, graphic, violent, dark and sad, very sad. It’s also blatantly political. All of which, may set the film outside or at the fringe of what many people like in their fantasy.

It wasn't what I had hoped. Of course, I wasn't sure what I was expecting, other than something non-Disney-esque.

Select to view spoiler:

The death of a child in a movie is rare, but the murder of a child.... wow. Can't think of too many instances where that happens. In 'Pay it Forward', we see a young boy get tragically killed - by another youth. I can't recall any 'on screen' scenes were an adult kills a child, though there are countless attempts and/or references made through out film history.

I guess what really made it such a downer for me was the notion that EVERYTHING the little girl experienced from the very start of the movie quite possibly was all in her head, and she simply dreamt up this fantasy world to escape the real one. To me, that underlying theme remains one of hoplessness for the rest of us, and even if we can develop

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Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:14 PM

TRAVELER

I guess you have to look at the Spanish Civil War and see how sick and cruel it was. Franco's air force, actually German and Italian, bombed a city into ashes. A prelude to what was about to happen to the rest of Europe.

The point is the city had no military value. No industry producing weapons of war, no large scale military forces stationed near. They simply wanted the rebels to know what they could do. This was an attack on the people. With their city burning down around them the people ran in to countryside to escape. There was not going to be any escape. As they entered the open fields outside the city the bombers came down and strafed them with their machine guns.

The Spanish Civil War was a warning of what was to come, but the adults ignored it and we ended up with one of the most horrific wars this world has ever known.

This story comes from that background. They did not hold back on the cruelity. It is hard to think a movie would have such evil, but it actually existed.

In Schindler's List we see a very young girl in a pink coat running through the streets of the ghetto she is being driven from. We finally find her body piled with the rest of the people who were shoot down and then set on fire.

There are writers, producers and directors who are not afraid to show how cruel the human being can be. The sad part is not that these films are made, it is sad that it is true.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:53 PM

GREYSTOKE

In every group of people there is good and evil. I'm sure the allies had their share of tyrannical figures. On every battlefield and on every side there are good and bad soldiers. The English are renowned for their late adjustment to modern tactics. They send men in charging waves toward machine gun posts. None returned. And our precious America. The only Country to ever use a Nuclear Weapon in wartime. How many innocents did that little beauty wipe out? We'll never know. Millions likely. Remember that history is written by the victors and is biased as hell.

It's All Gravy Baby!

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Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:37 PM

ODDSBODSKINS

Quote:
Originally posted by Greystoke:
In every group of people there is good and evil. I'm sure the allies had their share of tyrannical figures. On every battlefield and on every side there are good and bad soldiers. The English are renowned for their late adjustment to modern tactics. They send men in charging waves toward machine gun posts. None returned. And our precious America. The only Country to ever use a Nuclear Weapon in wartime. How many innocents did that little beauty wipe out? We'll never know. Millions likely. Remember that history is written by the victors and is biased as hell.

It's All Gravy Baby!

How very even handed, do you intend to make a point along with your insight?

They may think their sins are original, but for the most part they are petty and repetitive.

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Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:45 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
I guess you have to look at the Spanish Civil War and see how sick and cruel it was. Franco's air force, actually German and Italian, bombed a city into ashes. A prelude to what was about to happen to the rest of Europe.

The point is the city had no military value. No industry producing weapons of war, no large scale military forces stationed near. They simply wanted the rebels to know what they could do. This was an attack on the people. With their city burning down around them the people ran in to countryside to escape. There was not going to be any escape. As they entered the open fields outside the city the bombers came down and strafed them with their machine guns.

The Spanish Civil War was a warning of what was to come, but the adults ignored it and we ended up with one of the most horrific wars this world has ever known.

This story comes from that background. They did not hold back on the cruelity. It is hard to think a movie would have such evil, but it actually existed.

In Schindler's List we see a very young girl in a pink coat running through the streets of the ghetto she is being driven from. We finally find her body piled with the rest of the people who were shoot down and then set on fire.

There are writers, producers and directors who are not afraid to show how cruel the human being can be. The sad part is not that these films are made, it is sad that it is true.

The Franco government was responsible for a lot of atrocities during and after the Spanish Civil War, but so were the Rebels. It’s naïve to present that history as if the Fascists were evil and the Rebels were good. It was never that simple. First of all, the Franco government was not the same thing as the Nazi government – a similar totalitarian ideology for sure, but Spain did not practice ethnic cleansing the way the Nazis in Germany did. You can’t draw a conclusion about Spanish Fascists based on images of Nazi ethnic cleansing, but popular culture has painted fascism and fascists with the broad Nazi brush. So when Pan gives us a fascist, we are predisposed to assume he’s evil. It’s stereotypical, not historical. Spanish Rebels were largely Communists supported by Stalin, a lot of them were actually directly aligned with Stalin, and were responsible for a lot of atrocities as well. So if we are supposed to paint the Fascists with the Nazi’s brush, wouldn’t it be only fair to paint the Rebels with the Stalinist brush? If the Spanish Rebels had gained control, it’s hard to imagine that conditions would have necessarily been any different. So the Rebels are stereotypes as well. You can’t take the historical balance in the movie as literal.

I have to admit, my initial view was to accept Vidal’s character without question. I have no doubt that men like Vidal existed in Fascist Spain; I have no doubt that men like Vidal exist in every country, but just because someone is a fascist doesn’t make them evil. So Vidal needed something else to support his behavior to make him feel more real, and as it turned out, there was such a thing, but it was not expounded on enough, in my opinion. The watch that Vidal carries with him was given to him by his father who was killed in Morocco as a soldier, but we don’t know enough details about that, other then that Vidal is uncomfortable admitting it. The watch obviously symbolizes mortality, and this could have been used to give an insight into why Vidal is the way he is, and it’s unfortunate that they missed that opportunity. At the very least, it would have provided some balance to show the innocent people dead on the train that the rebels bombed. It’s difficult to believe that you can blow up a train and not kill anyone. Once again I have no doubt that there were good rebels, but they didn’t give as balanced a picture as they could have, and by making Vidal so flat it just emphasizes this imbalance in the politics of the movie. I like that the Rebel’s were good guys (perhaps it’s the Browncoat in me), but I don’t like that Vidal was left without some solid reason for his attitudes and behavior.

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Thursday, July 19, 2007 4:03 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Select to view spoiler:
I guess what really made it such a downer for me was the notion that EVERYTHING the little girl experienced from the very start of the movie quite possibly was all in her head, and she simply dreamt up this fantasy world to escape the real one. To me, that underlying theme remains one of hoplessness for the rest of us, and even if we can develop

Select to view spoiler:

This is what I meant by emphasizing the fantasy of the fairytale narrative. There were several scenes that suggested that the fairytale narrative or even the entire story was all in her head. That undermined the credibility of the heroine, leading to the impression that she was crazy. It wasn’t necessary, for instance, to show Ofelia standing alone in the Labyrinth, emphasizing that the Faun was all in her head.

I’ve watched this movie over a half dozen times now I guess and I think I can finally see all sides to it. I still think that my interpretation is the best (certainly the most optimistic), but I think I can see your view as well. As I said how one interprets the ending will shade their whole view of the movie.

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Friday, July 20, 2007 1:24 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

To sum up how I feel about this movie,....

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it left me feeling like I did after seeing Jacobs Ladder . Like I had just wasted that part of my life, and I'll never get it back. Granted, some of the movie was fascinating and nicely done. But the overall impression I got was that Ofelia knew nothing good in the world which was full of evil and darkness. She was, understandably, distraught over having lost her dad, over having to go live with the evil captain that her mom was forced to marry, and then losing her mom. She'd become utterly alone in a savage , war torn world. I kinda thought movies were where folks go to ESCAPE from such turmoils, and not to have them amplified on a giant screen.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:32 PM

GREYSTOKE

My point? Mypoint could be that only after defeating one's enemies and vanquishing all threats to ones soverignty can a country begin to speak peace. It would seem that peace can only be forged on a foundation of violence. Which is the country with the current record for preaching peace? Take Americas separation from England. If America practised in theory what it preaches today in those times, It would still be an English settlement. America would not exist without the hardships it has endured as a nation and I wonder if things might have been different with a big brother approach. I only need one word to describe this. Indians. What if someone stepped in and said 'You can't do that'.... Bye Bye West Coast. Many Countries have now the issues America had 150 years ago. My Point? I think I'm lost again..... America Fuck Yeah...... Stay Shiny!

It's All Gravy Baby!

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