OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Doctor Who: The End Of Time (SPOILERS!!)

POSTED BY: LWAVES
UPDATED: Friday, January 8, 2010 11:46
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Monday, January 4, 2010 1:09 PM

LWAVES


This thread won't have spoiler marks so you have been warned twice before you read any further.
I'm kind of surprised that there isn't already a post about this.

Part 1.
I was actually quite disappointed with this. Bringing the Master back with what basically appeared to be magic was pretty weak. Then having him do impressions of Iron Man was just laughable. Although I thought John Simm still did a great job in his portrayal of the character.
The touching scene in the cafe with Wilf was excellent and brilliantly played by both. The two actors play off each other really well IMO.
The ending with the reveal of the Timelords was great but not really a surprise. We've been told enough times that the Doctor was the only one, then the Master appears. He 'dies' and we're told the Doctor is alone again so it was pretty obvious the others would return in some way.

Part 2.
Now this was more like it. Enjoyed the majority of this episode, especially how the Timelords created the Master all those years ago. The Doctor and Wilf scenes were (again) the highlights of the show. And when the Doctor appears to have survived the final conflict between them all and is just about to seem happy we hear the knock. Even though we know who it is and why, it was still an absolutely fantastic moment. Poor silly old Wilf knocking four times on the glass. Then the Doctor who has saved worlds and universes has to finally save just one man. One of the best scenes in the whole show.
If I have one complaint about this episode it's that I thought the ending with previous companions was overlong and a bit contrived for the fans. I couldn't really see the Doctor doing that, to me he'd just go off like every time. It was nice though, just not necessary IMO.


On another note did anyone catch Timothy Dalton's reference to 'the weeping angels of old' and the two people kneeling behind him with hands covering their eyes? The 'Blink' angels?
And the woman that the Doctor knew. Mother? Wife? Could be anyone at the minute but I hope it's a thread that has been deliberately placed for them to carry on with.

Hope the new boy is good.




"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Monday, January 4, 2010 4:22 PM

SLEVIN7


I'm going to miss David Tennent he was a awesome doctor

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Monday, January 4, 2010 5:27 PM

EVILDINOSAUR


these episodes were amazing, Tennant will be greatly missed, I hope this new guy can continue to deliver at the same level.

I agree the part with all the old companions did seem a bit much. Of all the doctor's incarnations, this one did seem the most afraid of regeneration, from what I've seen anyway.

As for the woman, my first thought was his granddaughter Susan, but I'm not sure why, they didn't give any clues to that end, that's just what my gut told me. It could easily be a wife or even a child.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Monday, January 4, 2010 9:17 PM

SINGATE


The main problem with part 1 is that the entire episode is spent setting up part 2. Other than the Wilf/Doctor, Master/Doctor conversations there wasn't a whole lot to get jazzed about. Everyone did a magnificent job with their roles. I was especially pleased with Dalton's portrayal of the Lord President. He came off kinda creepy in an understated way. It would have been really easy to go over the top with the meglomaniacal end of time speech. Well done!

I figured the Master had been implanted with the drums but I thought it was some sort of subliminal or hypnotic trigger. I guess the Prez never figured on him fighting back which is a bit stupid. So Simm must be done with the role, he did an excellent job. I have a feeling the Master will return somehow. Just like the Doctor he always seems to have an out.

Having the Doctor visit and/or aid all of his past associates was a bit much and drawn out way too long. I wonder if David Tennant had any input on that part. He was so good in this role. Really hope to see him in other projects.

The new guy comes off a bit goofy, but then I thought the same thing when Tennant replaced Eccleston. Looking forward to the new season.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 6:25 AM

STORYMARK


Much like Davies' other episodes, I thought it was a mixed bag - great character work and dialog, wrapped around a plot that bordered on the nonsensical.

I will miss Tennant, though.

Oh, and according to Davies, the reasoning behind the LOTR-esque ending was to tie off all the loose plots threads and characters from Davies' run, so that Moffat (the new show-runner) could have a totally fresh start with his new Doctor. And with that in mind, the BBC is referring to the new season as Series 1 - a bit of a reboot rather than a strict continuation (correction: apparently it's just the on-set production team saying that, the BBC is calling it Series 5).

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 6:35 AM

EVILDINOSAUR


Has anyone heard if they're changing the look of the Tardis interior again? I noticed quite a bit of destruction during the regeneration, I was wondering if it's also getting another new look.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 6:59 AM

STORYMARK


Yes, I believe that's the plan, but they have yet to reveal anything.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 9:18 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Has anyone heard the exact date Series 5 premieres in the UK?



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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 9:33 AM

STORYMARK


No official date has been set, but they've said it'll start right around Easter.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:23 AM

SAB39


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
And the woman that the Doctor knew. Mother? Wife? Could be anyone at the minute but I hope it's a thread that has been deliberately placed for them to carry on with.



Wikipedia has the answer:

Quote:

The Doctor attends a book signing where a writer named Verity Newman (played by Jessica Hynes) has released a book entitled A Journal of Impossible Things, based on the diary from her great-grandmother Joan Redfern. Hynes previously played Joan Redfern in the 2007 Doctor Who story "Human Nature" / "The Family of Blood", in which the Doctor, transformed into a human with no conscious memory of his past adventures, wrote elements of his life as fiction in his Journal of Impossible Things and asserted that his mother's name was Verity. The name "Verity Newman" is based on Doctor Who creator Sydney Newman and the show's first producer, Verity Lambert." A pocket watch featured prominently in the plot of "Human Nature" / "The Family of Blood", and a pocket watch is featured on the cover of Newman's book.


EDIT to add that I just realized that wasn't the woman you meant, but I think one of the other repliers in the thread misinterpreted it the same way as I did. Wiki says the other woman is indeed the Doctor's mother according to leaks, but doesn't give direct conformation of that from any authoritative sources.


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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:25 AM

STORYMARK


Wiki is never authoritative. I've read many theories on who she could be. All this means is someone posted their to wiki. The writers have confirmed nothing, though.


EDIT: Oh, wait, we're talking different things. You mean the woman from the book signing - we were talking about the mystery woman with the Time Lords.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:35 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Not sure why Sab39 was confused, I was sure everyone knew the reference was to the woman played by Claire Bloom, who was seen behind and to the right of Timothy Dalton in most scenes of the Time Lords, but she also is the one who appeared to Wilfred both on the telly and spectrally when they were on the alien ship.

I don't know enough about Classic Who to speculate whom she may be, but I assumed it had to be someone from The Doctor's family.



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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 10:47 AM

STORYMARK


The theories I've read are that she's either his Mother, or Grand-daughter (this one based on the Doctor looking as Donna after her Gradfather asks "who is she").

But yeah, my classic Who knowledge is spotty at best, so I don't know.

He's also got a Dughter (not the fake daughter from recently, but a real one from, I think, the first Doctor's run), so she's a possibility as well.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 12:36 PM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
On another note did anyone catch Timothy Dalton's reference to 'the weeping angels of old' and the two people kneeling behind him with hands covering their eyes? The 'Blink' angels?
And the woman that the Doctor knew. Mother? Wife? Could be anyone at the minute but I hope it's a thread that has been deliberately placed for them to carry on with.



I thought she was one of the ones covering their eyes - the two people who voted against Dalton's plan.

Anyway, based on the teaser trailer for the new series ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/newyear/ but probably for UKians only) it looks as if the weeping angels are coming back, so it could be a set up.

(Not sure how I feel about that - Blink was such a perfect episode that Blink II is almost bound to disappoint).

Quote:


Then the Doctor who has saved worlds and universes has to finally save just one man.



...and I did like the way his facade cracked and he finally had a good old whinge about having to sacrifice himself. One of the better parts of what felt like 40 minutes of plot padded out to 2 hours.

Quote:


If I have one complaint about this episode it's that I thought the ending with previous companions was overlong and a bit contrived for the fans.



Plus: Donna gets a multi-million pound lottery win but Martha just gets Micky The Idiot (...and presumably her original fiance gets a Dear John) Does that seem fair to you?

...and Cap'n jack gets a one night stand with a werewolf (oh, sorry, wrong show...)

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 1:51 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by ImNotHere:
One of the better parts of what felt like 40 minutes of plot padded out to 2 hours.





Heh, without commercials, it was only an hour and twelve minutes.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 2:04 PM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by ImNotHere:
Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
On another note did anyone catch Timothy Dalton's reference to 'the weeping angels of old' and the two people kneeling behind him with hands covering their eyes? The 'Blink' angels?
And the woman that the Doctor knew. Mother? Wife? Could be anyone at the minute but I hope it's a thread that has been deliberately placed for them to carry on with.



I thought she was one of the ones covering their eyes - the two people who voted against Dalton's plan.



The woman the Doctor knew was one of the two covering her eyes (and who Wilf saw), I just wanted to point out that it was just that woman I was referring to, not the other person with covered eyes.


As for his family, Tennant's Doctor made a reference to having a family. Can't remember which episode but it was one with Rose or Martha.
William Hartnells original Doctor travelled with his grand-daughter which means he has/had at least a son or daughter from that time.
I don't know of any other reference but then I haven't seen a lot of the first three Doctors episodes.




"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 3:47 PM

PEULSAR5

We sniff the air, we don't kiss the dirt.


Has anything been said about the number of times the Doctor can regenerate? It's been established in the past to be 12 times, which means he only has one left. If the show contiues for a long time this could become an issue

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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:28 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I missed part one!!! Dammit dammit dammit. But I enjoyed part two--the ending was overlong and soppish, yes, and what about ROSE? If he's gonna go visit everyone...yes, I know he said she'd never see him again, but I'd have enjoyed him peeking in or something; it's been hinted several times that she's the one he really loved...?

I was hoping when he visited Cap'n Jack that he'd have something imortant to say or something that would help ease Jack's pain. Just another snark at Jack's "propensities" seemed a waste (spoke as a true Torchwood fan).

Dalton...of course. I KNEW he looked familiar, but couldn't place him. Thank you.

There will NEVER be another doctor like Tennant. Listened to his stints on what's-his-name's show (it comes on right after Who here, guy with guests--you Brits know who I'm sure); he seemed to really enjoy his time as the Doctor. I know he's Royal Shakespeare and has a career to attend to, but he was JUST right (I've only seen a couple of incarnations of the previous ones), crazy eyes, crazy hair, with a wonderful touch of humanity (sorry Doctor!). There will never be another; I can't imagine one!

Now I have to wait for a chance at part one on Netflix or something...sigh...dammit dammit dammit



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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 4:57 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
...the ending was overlong and soppish, yes, and what about ROSE? If he's gonna go visit everyone...yes, I know he said she'd never see him again, but I'd have enjoyed him peeking in or something...


He did see Rose, but he traveled back to 2005 to see her and Jackie, so she wouldn't have recognized him because she hadn't met him at that time. You must have blinked and missed that part.



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Tuesday, January 5, 2010 8:15 PM

STEGASAURUS


It's so funny to read my countrymen's reaction to the ending of a Doctor. Whenever they see Doctor Who for the first time they just latch onto that Doctor and he becomes their favorite to which there can NEVER be a replacement... lol

I guess I'm so used to the changing of the Doctor since I watched it growing up in Michigan (we always picked up Canadian channels), I just don't get so attached. But I will state that DT's Doctor has been my favorite from the "new" series. Just like my freshly introduced brethren, Tom Baker was my first Doctor, and I still kinda miss him.

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 8:50 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Peulsar5:
Has anything been said about the number of times the Doctor can regenerate? It's been established in the past to be 12 times, which means he only has one left. If the show contiues for a long time this could become an issue



Much like the complete destruction of the Daleks and Time Lords, or the "death" of The Master, the bit about limited regenerations will be true up until the point they totally throw it out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 8:54 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
It's so funny to read my countrymen's reaction to the ending of a Doctor. Whenever they see Doctor Who for the first time they just latch onto that Doctor and he becomes their favorite to which there can NEVER be a replacement... lol

I guess I'm so used to the changing of the Doctor since I watched it growing up in Michigan (we always picked up Canadian channels), I just don't get so attached. But I will state that DT's Doctor has been my favorite from the "new" series. Just like my freshly introduced brethren, Tom Baker was my first Doctor, and I still kinda miss him.


Well, I certainly have not watched all of the Doctors, but I gre up watching Baker and Davidson, liked McGann's TV movie and was very fond of Eccleston's take.

But Tennant was my favorite - and certainly not because he was my first.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:28 AM

STEGASAURUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
It's so funny to read my countrymen's reaction to the ending of a Doctor. Whenever they see Doctor Who for the first time they just latch onto that Doctor and he becomes their favorite to which there can NEVER be a replacement... lol

I guess I'm so used to the changing of the Doctor since I watched it growing up in Michigan (we always picked up Canadian channels), I just don't get so attached. But I will state that DT's Doctor has been my favorite from the "new" series. Just like my freshly introduced brethren, Tom Baker was my first Doctor, and I still kinda miss him.


Well, I certainly have not watched all of the Doctors, but I gre up watching Baker and Davidson, liked McGann's TV movie and was very fond of Eccleston's take.

But Tennant was my favorite - and certainly not because he was my first.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



I think I may have come across wrong. I'm not poking fun or pointing out "how wrong" those of us in the US are for making comments like "there'll NEVER be another doctor!". I was merely expressing that I, personally, find it humorous that usually it's the American viewers that latch on to the first actor they see as The Doctor, rather than latching onto the character of The Doctor.

I'm just as much to blame in this. It's just our way of thinking in regards to our shows. Our kin across the pond have unilaterally grown up with Doctor Who, so they have no problem with the changing faces. Here, in the US it's a rarity if you've seen more than Baker or Davidson prior to Eccleston's introduction.

I too, thoroughly enjoyed Eccleston's Doctor and think Tennent's has been the best thus far. But like I said before, Baker will always have a fond, special place in my memories.

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 10:56 AM

EVILDINOSAUR


I watched both parts online @ casttv.com, part one is probably still up there.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 11:28 AM

STORYMARK


And there are always torrents.....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 12:29 PM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by Peulsar5:
Has anything been said about the number of times the Doctor can regenerate? It's been established in the past to be 12 times, which means he only has one left. If the show contiues for a long time this could become an issue



Actually he has two regenerations left. The latest regeneration was the 10th time it has happened making Matt Smith the 11th Doctor. This leaves two more to go making thirteen Doctors in total.
I hope they stick to that rule of twelve regenerations. As much as I love Doctor Who that rule is such a part of my Who mythology, having grown up with the earlier Doctors, that it would be a crime to alter it. They should just give it a big finish with maybe a multi-episode, multi-Doctor story like in past times with The Five Doctors.
But if the ratings are still strong....who knows (pun intended).




"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Wednesday, January 6, 2010 7:58 PM

PEULSAR5

We sniff the air, we don't kiss the dirt.


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
Quote:

Originally posted by Peulsar5:
Has anything been said about the number of times the Doctor can regenerate? It's been established in the past to be 12 times, which means he only has one left. If the show contiues for a long time this could become an issue



Actually he has two regenerations left. The latest regeneration was the 10th time it has happened making Matt Smith the 11th Doctor. This leaves two more to go making thirteen Doctors in total.
I hope they stick to that rule of twelve regenerations. As much as I love Doctor Who that rule is such a part of my Who mythology, having grown up with the earlier Doctors, that it would be a crime to alter it. They should just give it a big finish with maybe a multi-episode, multi-Doctor story like in past times with The Five Doctors.
But if the ratings are still strong....who knows (pun intended).




"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."



Math was never my subject.

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 2:05 AM

IMNOTHERE


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
I hope they stick to that rule of twelve regenerations.



They've already broken that rule:

Back in the Tom Baker era (I think) the Master got to his 12th regeneration and started to go all manky - but He Got Better.

I think he did it by stealing another body - but then he's evil (thunderclap) so that's OK. Maneuvering the Doctor into a position where he is forced to do the same could make for a fun story.

Or perhaps he could die and his "daughter" could take over the family business... They keep on rumbling about having a female Doctor and that could be a less squicky way of doing it.

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 12:39 PM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by ImNotHere:
Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:
I hope they stick to that rule of twelve regenerations.



They've already broken that rule:

Back in the Tom Baker era (I think) the Master got to his 12th regeneration and started to go all manky - but He Got Better.

I think he did it by stealing another body - but then he's evil (thunderclap) so that's OK. Maneuvering the Doctor into a position where he is forced to do the same could make for a fun story.

Or perhaps he could die and his "daughter" could take over the family business... They keep on rumbling about having a female Doctor and that could be a less squicky way of doing it.



You are right about the Master and the era but as you say, he is evil, so normal rules don't usually apply (look at his recent return). And the Timelords themselves have brought The Master back for the Time War so it is possible. But they aren't really around now and are certainly not going to help the Doctor.



"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Thursday, January 7, 2010 1:19 PM

STORYMARK


They're not going to just stop the show or kill the Doctor because of a rule written before they ever thought the series would last so long.

Like I said above, if the series is still popular enough to continue when they hit that point, that rule will be tossed out or written around in a heartbeat.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, January 8, 2010 11:46 AM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
They're not going to just stop the show or kill the Doctor because of a rule written before they ever thought the series would last so long.

Like I said above, if the series is still popular enough to continue when they hit that point, that rule will be tossed out or written around in a heartbeat.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Oh, I agree that if they want to write around it they will find a way and for the same reasons as you, but as I said further up I 'hope' that they don't. I'd like them to stick to it as the rule is there. Everything has to come to an end and for long term fans that final moment has always been there, that little bit closer with each new Doctor. Obviously whatever they decide will depend on how the next series does, and then the following ones if that does well.
But I live in hope that he'll get the send off he deserves. But I wouldn't want to be the writers who have to do it!!



"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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