Endgames, in movies & TV shows... by chrisisall

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Endgames, in movies & TV shows...

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Monday, January 18, 2010 06:47
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VIEWED: 2900
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Friday, January 15, 2010 7:10 PM

Some movies & TV shows start out strong, then falter towards the end. Others get better as they go. Still others begin boldly, lose it in the middle, and gain grace at the end.

What shows/movies do you feel went through a process that fundamentally changed them, for better or worse?

My initial examples would be Buffy, ALIAS, Firefly & the Matrix films. Buffy seemed (to me) to lose its way somewhere between season 5 & 6, only to come back strong for its finale. ALIAS lost it between season 3 & 4, to regain excellence in 5. Matrix was great out of the gate, then petered down to nonsense in the sequels.
Firefly was an anomaly IMO. Great from the gate, & groovy at the movie.

Thoughts? Additions to the list?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, January 15, 2010 7:54 PM

BIGRICHARD

I'd agree with all of those, except Matrix.
I think I'm one of the few people who actually liked Matrix Revolutions. The first one is still the best, I kinda dug parts of Reloaded, mainly actionwise, but Revolutions I quite enjoyed, as unnecessary as the sequels were.

Other examples....the Harry Potter movies, in my opinion, as much as I like the first few films, they're getting much stronger lately (although a lot of people disagree). I feel the last 2 films have been particularly great. (Goblet of Fire wasn't as good as Azkaban, Phoenix or Half-Blood though.)

I think I'd say that Angel got better over time. I liked all of it, but it definitely grew stronger toward the end, when we started getting much more arc-based seasons, as opposed to standalone episodes.

Scrubs started off well, has been slowly getting worse, and has now pretty much died with it's latest season (although I still watch it, just because I feel some sort of obligation.)

ETA:
Dollhouse has been getting better and better lately. It started off fairly well in season 1, and got absolutely brilliant by the end. Season 2 started off well, and again is getting much better toward the end.

Dexter is a show I loved in season 1, liked in seasons 2 and 3, and loved again in season 4.

And I feel Lost has been terrific throughout so far, with the exception of a few standalone episodes here and there, that felt like they were there just to fill the episode order. Thankfully, they don't have them anymore!

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Friday, January 15, 2010 8:07 PM

CHRISISALL

Is Lost better than Fringe?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, January 15, 2010 8:17 PM

BIGRICHARD

I've fallen behind on Fringe actually. Only ended up watching the first 6 episodes of the first season. And not because it wasn't good. Just because my brother and dad want to watch it with me, and I'm not allowed to watch it without them. This therefore means that we'll never watch it, as we're never all free at the same time. I'll just have to sneakily watch it sometime.

From what I've seen though, yeah, Lost is probably better.

I love Lost. It's not for everyone though, and I can understand why some people don't like it.
But personally, it's one of my absolute favourites, and if you want to watch it, I recommend you start now, before the ending is ruined for you.

The final season is upon us.
4.8.15.16.23.42

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Friday, January 15, 2010 8:26 PM

CHRISISALL

If the reviews of Lost's finale suck, then I saved my coin. If they're great, the I must collect from season one.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, January 15, 2010 8:33 PM

CALHOUN

Quote:
chrisisall wrote:
Friday, January 15, 2010 19:10

Matrix was great out of the gate, then petered down to nonsense in the sequels.

The new Battlestar Galactica was awesome at the beginning but grew to be nonsensical and then just utter tripe..

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Friday, January 15, 2010 8:43 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I don't know why, but too many shows that go 7 seasons seem to really falter in Season 6. Buffy did it, to a degree. The West Wing did, Gilmore Girls, even The Shield. Season 6 starts just feeling like nothing more than filler, just a crappy bridge to get to a big finish.

By the way, The Shield didn't really undergo a fundamental change, but there WERE some serious surprises. It was one of the best series finales I've seen. It was wrong, but it was oh-so-RIGHT. But I'll not spoil it for those who haven't seen it.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Friday, January 15, 2010 8:51 PM

BIGRICHARD

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
If the reviews of Lost's finale suck, then I saved my coin. If they're great, the I must collect from season one.

The laughing Chrisisall

Fair call. Here's to hoping they're awesome.
Honestly, I reckon 50% of people will be disappointed, regardless what the outcome is. It just won't live up to whatever grand pedestal they'd placed the show on. That's what I think anyway.

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Saturday, January 16, 2010 6:04 AM

CYBERSNARK

Hmm. Just off the top of my head:

Star Trek The Next Generation's "All Good Things. . ." set the bar for a finale, neatly book-ending the series with Q's trial, callbacks to the first episode, and a glimpse of a then-possible future, while leaving the floor open for continuing stories.

I'll count Nemesis as a second TNG finale, which I deeply enjoyed; it touched on what I consider to be the fundamental meaning of Trek (are we simply products of our environment, or can we choose to improve ourselves?), and closed one chapter of the crew/family's career while opening another.

Deep Space Nine's "What You Leave Behind" took the bar that TNG set and raised it; ending but a chapter, while leaving the characters and storyline clear for other authors to follow (and thereby setting the stage for a Golden Age of Trek prose --after DS9 is when Pocket decided to pull a Star Wars and start weaving the self-contained novels into a cohesive universe. The Status is no longer Quo.)

I consider "Terra Prime" to be Enterprise's finale ("These are the Voyages" has all but been officially scrubbed from canon), and it's glorious. Resolution to the Trip/T'Pol romance, a reminder of another of Trek's themes (do we hide our heads in the sand, struggling to solve our own problems and protect what little we have, or do we have the courage to boldly go where no one has gone before?), and, ultimately, a hint of what's to come (human/Vulcan hybrids, the Romulan War, a United Federation built on trust, respect, and compassion).

Prison Break managed to find a cathartic end point to Michael's saga. Wasn't necessarily a totally happy ending, but after the non-stop tension of the last few seasons, the story clearly ended.

Oban Star Racers started out awesome, then became moreso. The only change I would've made to the ending would've been the payoff to the romantic arc --Nourasia and Earth are clearly heading for an alliance, and I know an Earth girl who'd make a great ambassador to meet with the Nourasian prince. . .

Stargate SG-1: I loved the non-finale of the series (just another day at the office), and the DVD movies haven't let me down yet.

Transformers Animated's "Endgame" was awesome, but ultimately fell short. Inexplicably, the most well-loved Transformers series ever was cancelled, and the writers didn't quite manage to tie up all the plotlines. The final battle for Earth was a Crowning Moment of Awesome for everyone, the Allspark shards were recovered, Sentinel is discredited, Optimus is ascendant, Ratchet finally saved Arcee, Starscream is dead --but Magnus is still in stasis, we still don't know where Sari came from (or if she'll be returning to Earth [and her dad], or staying on Cybertron), Team Charr is still at-large, Blurr's death is unavenged, Starscream's body is unaccounted for, Swindle is still out there somewhere, and we have no concrete word on what happened to the Constructicons, the Dinobots, Wreck-Gar, and Slipstream.

Voyager wins the prize for the worst finale in Trek; "Endgame" featured out-of-character behaviour from practically everyone, ended with a guillotine before any actual resolution could be offered, and further reduced the Borg to a laughingstock.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, January 16, 2010 8:49 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

I consider "Terra Prime" to be Enterprise's finale ("These are the Voyages" has all but been officially scrubbed from canon), and it's glorious. Resolution to the Trip/T'Pol romance, a reminder of another of Trek's themes (do we hide our heads in the sand, struggling to solve our own problems and protect what little we have, or do we have the courage to boldly go where no one has gone before?), and, ultimately, a hint of what's to come (human/Vulcan hybrids, the Romulan War, a United Federation built on trust, respect, and compassion).

Y'know, I really need to get that season on DVD! Thanks for the reminder!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 6:38 AM

LWAVES

I am a huge Lost fan and I am really looking forward to the final series. It's fairly obvious that they won't be able to answer all the questions but my ideal kind of ending would be something where they answer the main ones, give you enough info to work some others out on repeated viewings (as they already do) and leave the others dangling so that there is some speculation and something to discuss.
I'll be very happy if it ends on a par with the new BSG ending which had a couple of problems but ended greatly.

But I can understand that people may want to wait until it's finished. It really is a show that you have to watch every single episode and not miss any. It gets complicated if you see all of them so to dip in ocassionally would make it impossible to follow.

My fave all-time ending has to be Blake's 7. Blake is dead (apparently). Orac mysteriously disappeared part way through the show. Vila falls at the sound of a gunshot but we don't actually see him shot. The others are shot but we see no blood etc. And of course that classic shot of Avon standing over Blakes body surrounded by guards. Brilliant and still talked about to this day.

In TV:

Buffy lost it's way (still good though) but ended with a great final season.
Angel started great and just got better with a fitting end, although the last few episodes were a bit rushed.
The X-Files lost it's way and should have finished big when Duchovny left. After that I found it watchable but poor.
Quantum Leap was consistant throughout but with a fantastic (and sad) final episode.
Only Fools And Horses had the perfect ending until they ruined it by doing a few unfunny episodes (a first for this show).

In Movies:

I can't watch The Matrix because I just think of how they screwed it up with the sequels.
Harry Potter has been thoroughly fantastic all the way but my personal fave is Prisoner Of Azkaban.
The Bourne movies got better with each one and they started out brilliantly.

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 6:45 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:

I can't watch The Matrix because I just think of how they screwed it up with the sequels.

You don't need to think about Matrix 2 or 3 again. Those weren't the sequels you were looking for.You can go about your business of watching the first one. Move along.

The force can have a powerful influence over a bad case of sequelitus.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:33 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
I consider "Terra Prime" to be Enterprise's finale ("These are the Voyages" has all but been officially scrubbed from canon), and it's glorious.
Y'know, I really need to get that season on DVD! Thanks for the reminder!

No prob; remember, just avoid the very last episode.

Depending on the depth of your fandom, you can then pick up the novels "Last Full Measure," "The Good That Men Do," "Kobayashi Maru," and "The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing." They pick up shortly after "Terra Prime," and serve as a sort of "season 5."

"These are the Voyages" isn't even an Enterprise episode, really; it's Commander Riker & Counsellor Troi watching a "historical reconstruction" --one apparently written years after the Romulan War (i.e., ten years after "Terra Prime") by someone who had only a passing familiarity with Archer's ship & crew. As Mal said; half of writing history is hiding the truth.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:06 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

No prob; remember, just avoid the very last episode.

I actually HAD the episode on the Captain's Collection, and found it to be almost laughably bad.
Made me appreciate how *great* the final ep of Voyager was by comparison.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 10:34 AM

LWAVES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:

I can't watch The Matrix because I just think of how they screwed it up with the sequels.

You don't need to think about Matrix 2 or 3 again. Those weren't the sequels you were looking for.You can go about your business of watching the first one. Move along.

The force can have a powerful influence over a bad case of sequelitus.

The laughing Chrisisall

Hahahaha!
That's very true as I have to do that with a certain trilogy featuring a man named Jones. The thought of the fourth one gives me goosebumps . But lets not go down that route again in this thread.

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 10:57 AM

CHRISISALL

My list of unforgivably suck sequels:
Return From Witch Mountain.
Short Circuit 2.
Mummy 3.
Matrix 2 & 3.
Crow 2 & on.
Highlander 2.
Superman 4.
Shanghai Knights.
Jurassic Park 3.
Alien 3.
Pirates of the Caribbean 2 & 3.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 11:10 AM

LWAVES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
My list of unforgivably suck sequels:
Return From Witch Mountain.
Short Circuit 2.
Mummy 3.
Matrix 2 & 3.
Crow 2 & on.
Highlander 2.
Superman 4.
Shanghai Knights.
Jurassic Park 3.
Alien 3.
Pirates of the Caribbean 2 & 3.

The laughing Chrisisall

Mine would be:

Matrix 2 and 3
Highlander 2+
Indy 4
Superman 3+
Escape From LA
Jaws 3+
Batman Forever and Batman And Robin

With dishonourable mentions to:

Alien 3 and Resurrection
Spider-Man 3
Terminator 3+
Pirates 3

Surely Highlander 2 must be universally regarded as a terrible sequel? If there is anyone out there that really likes it then please stand up and be counted.

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 11:15 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:

Surely Highlander 2 must be universally regarded as a terrible sequel? If there is anyone out there that really likes it then please stand up and be counted.

I can't remember who but SOMEONE online convinced me to rent the Director's Cut, promising that it made more sense than the theatrical version that I nearly cried during the day of its release.
I can no longer remember who it was because they lied to me and do not exist anymore.
That's how much I hate that movie.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 11:39 AM

LWAVES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:

Surely Highlander 2 must be universally regarded as a terrible sequel? If there is anyone out there that really likes it then please stand up and be counted.

I can't remember who but SOMEONE online convinced me to rent the Director's Cut, promising that it made more sense than the theatrical version that I nearly cried during the day of its release.
I can no longer remember who it was because they lied to me and do not exist anymore.
That's how much I hate that movie.

The laughing Chrisisall

I saw it with a couple of mates, one of who isn't afraid to say what he thinks. We all hated it so much that he told the queue waiting to go in exactly what he thought of it and suggested they go and spend their money on something else!
Some actually left the queue but most told him to shut up. I wonder if they felt the same way later.

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:02 PM

CORNCOBB

Howdy,
I think Battlestar Galactica is a prime example of a great show that had a lousy ending. The X-files would be another. I couldnt tell you about many shows that started out weak and redeemed themselves. I've only given a chance to a few shows that failed to impress me early on, and most of those remained poor for their whole run. So I tend to not waste my time with anything that doesn't show potential. Having said that, Farscape started out quite ordinary but ended up one of my all time favourite shows (great finale too).

As for Lost - Don't wait for reviews of the finale. chances are they'll contain spoilers that will ruin the show for you. Just start watching from episode one, asap. I've seen enough to assure you that it's worth it. As a writer, I'm intensely envious of what the script writers on Lost are capable of. They've delivered some of the finest, most intelligent and nuanced writing ever seen on televion. They clearly have thought things out in great detail, and have a plan for the finale. Its unlikely that plan will satisfy everyone, (there's just too much to cover and too many conflicting wishes from viewers) but it'll be a quality finale regardless.
It's true that it's not for everyone, but if you appreciate good writing, if you want to see a show with meaning and characterisation that can rival works of literature, you'll find somethign to enjoy in Lost.

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:06 PM

CHRISISALL

Thanks Corn, that's about the best recommendation for Lost I ever did read.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:57 PM

CORNCOBB

Shiny :)
Lost requires some patience though, just to give you fair warning. The style of storytelling necessitates that plots and character arcs and themes take a little while to develop and pay off. The show also uses mystery a lot, and prefers to take its time to give satisfying believable answers rather than quick and easy flimsy ones.

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:59 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Surely Highlander 2 must be universally regarded as a terrible sequel? If there is anyone out there that really likes it then please stand up and be counted.

Or just stand up so we can get a good shot at you. :)

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 5:07 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Surely Highlander 2 must be universally regarded as a terrible sequel? If there is anyone out there that really likes it then please stand up and be counted.

Or just stand up so we can get a good shot at you. :)

Hmmm. Highlander 2 just MAY be the most severe decent-to-big budget suckfest ever made...
That or Matrix 3, whaddya think?
I vote H2 d'oh!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 5:27 PM

KWICKO

Honestly, I can't remember H2. I've blotted it from my memory. I'm thinking maybe I smashed myself in the head with a cinder block after watching it, because that whole day is gone. I *do* remember renting it, and being excited to see it, but nothing else.

So, unless I actually go and rent it again (not bloody likely!), I'm going to have to go with Matrix 3.

Of course, I *could* be wrong. But I'm not about to go find out.

Oh, wait - you left out all three of the Star Wars prequels from your worst big-budget suckfest competition. And silly, silly me - I saw all three! :(

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 5:36 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm going to have to go with Matrix 3.

I could prolly get through about a half-hour of M3, but not even ten minutes of H2.

Quote:

Oh, wait - you left out all three of the Star Wars prequels from your worst big-budget suckfest competition.

Crap, yes. But somewhat sit-through-able.
From a certain point of view.

Like, a very drunk one.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 6:06 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Corncobb:
The show also uses mystery a lot

And I hear it used our Cap'n at least once, eh?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, January 18, 2010 4:30 AM

LWAVES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Corncobb:
The show also uses mystery a lot
And I hear it used our Cap'n at least once, eh?

The laughing Chrisisall

Yep, he's been in one episode so far. I can't imagine him returning, but you never know with this show. And there's a scene with him that's very Firefly-esque (new word?).

I have to agree with CornCobb that if you can handle REALLY watching the show, no distractions or anything, and take as much in as you can then it is definitely worth it. You are bound to catch spoilers after it is over and it will ruin it for you. So don't wait.

There is a lot to take in and it can get very complex and you'll think that the writers don't know what they are doing. But on repeated viewings (I'm currently going through it all again ready for the last season) you pick up on so much that you didn't spot first time round. Sometimes they are innocent, throwaway type lines that only come into meaning later, sometimes a season or two later. There's a little scene in season 3 that I am hoping will feature in the finale. It's never been mentioned since but I'm hoping.

For me the questions are one of the great things about it. I like that they don't give you too many answers (you do get some though and there is enough info to work others out). If they told you the big answers there would be no point in watching.

Each character also has their own arc, some more than others. How they intertwine with each other is brilliantly done playing up the whole 'destiny' motif that runs through the show. Some characters are more likeable than others, some get annoying and every veiwer has their faves.

If you go ahead be warned that the start to season 3 is a little slow. They pretty much stay in one location too long and concentrate too much a few characters. It's still good but not as good. Get to episode 6 or 7 and the show is back where it should be.

So go for it matey!
Enjoy it because the makers have stated that this is it. No spin-offs, movies or anything. Whether that's the case is another thing...

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Monday, January 18, 2010 6:47 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:

So go for it matey!
Enjoy it because the makers have stated that this is it. No spin-offs, movies or anything. Whether that's the case is another thing...

I just signed up with Netflix, it will be the first thing I rent!

Currently watching ALIAS' last season for the second time- lovin' it even more than the first time. Good endgames are priceless.

The laughing Chrisisall

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