The Batman.... live action thoughts by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Warning: Mini-Bat-essay coming...

Superheroes live in a fantasy world, IMHO. To try and set a superhero movie in so-called 'real life' is incredibly tricky (So far, Iron Man has been the best at achieving any real degree of that, and mainly because of the SF content serving to suspend disbelief).

Goofy Batman (the '66 series, Batman & Robin) works on its own nutty level.
Batman Forever is such a mixed bag...
Batman begins & TDK take Batman to a level he's never been to before in film, a quasi-real-life but with fantastic elements. In some ways, it worked better than anything else ever done. In some ways it seemed forced, though. Too many 'real-life' questions linger (for me) with those movies (yeah, maybe I think too much).

But the two Burton/Keaton Batman movies were amazingly successful at creating their own bizarre reality in which Wayne, his motivation, his weaponry, his car, and even his nemeses were nearly 100% acceptable without any serious reservation.
IMO, those two films are part of history. Never to be repeated. Possibly never to be equaled (in live action, anyway, the animated series was phenomenal, but that's not the discussion here).

Have to say I pretty much agree with you here on all counts Chris.

I believe it's all about your attitude when you go into the cinema in the first place. Sometimes you just have to be in the porper mood for some of these superhero films. Right now I'd rather watch the Adam West ones because they're just so much fun, but when I was in a bit of a dark period in my life, the BURTON ones really cut the mustard! I still hold those in high regards and Keaton for me will always be Bruce/Batman.

My best friend who is a cinematographer now just can't deal with the Nolan films. His big gripe is that Nolan overburdens his narratives with contrived intellect that frankly fall to pieces when a guy dressed like a bat suddenly enters shot...

I'd also put THOR right up there too.

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Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:32 AM

Batman, for me, has always been the one. There are other superheroes I like a lot but none of them ever compared to Batman. Although, strictly speaking, I don't class Batman as a superhero but that's for another time.

Batman 60's - Great fun that isn't to be taken seriously in anyway and was never meant to be.

Batmna Forever + Batman And Robin - Terrible movies who's only saving graces were Alfred and that Clooney could have made a great 'older' Bruce Wayne/Batman. The rest isn't worth typing about.

Batman + Batman Returns - As a big Tim Burton fan I love these movies and consider Returns the slightly better of the two movies. Mainly because Basinger is a little too wooden for me, her performance just doesn't sit right. Batman Returns has the excellent Danny DeVito as Penguin (who you almost feel sorry for) and Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman. Meow!! Need I say more?

Batman Begins + The Dark Knight - Nolan has done a brilliant job of not only rescuing Batman in film but also bringing it into an almost real world setting. These films also show why he is so feared by criminals and how the stories of him being a phantom or 12 foot tall etc would have started. Excellent stuff.

I don't like to compare Burton's Batman to Nolan's Batman although I can see why people do. I really like both directors and both of their takes on the Batverse. But they take different approaches to the core ideas and end up with different results. IMO both are as good as each other. Nolan has the realism side of things and Burton has the comic book feel. Although I agree that Keaton makes the better Batman, even though Bale is very good.

I think the reason why Batman and Iron Man have both achieved a level of 'real-worldness' is because both characters are ultimately human. They may use their brains, fighting skills and technology to fight evil but strip all that away and you are left with just a man. All the other major heroes that I can think of are either alien, mutants or subjects of genetic alteration etc. That puts the human born amongst them into a 'superhuman' category.

@The Somnambulist:
I obviously don't know your friend but from that comment it sounds like the kind of BS some film students would come out with in trying to appear clever, intelligent and knowledgeable by going against the successful and/or popular. It seems like he just doesn't get the movies or doesn't want to.
It's like what happened during Spielberg's heyday when students would state that he never made films of any substance or with any real grit. They basically disliked it because he (generally) made family friendly films and was very good and successful at it. So they picked up on things that weren't in his movies and slammed him for it.
I'm not trying to have a go at your friend because I only have that little bit to go on but that's what it seems like to me.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Thursday, June 30, 2011 4:00 AM

Lwaves.
I guess I should fill in the gaps regarding my friend. He isn't a student. Far from it, he is a porfessional cinematographer and must be in his tenth year as a DOP by now -- or close to it. Mostly independent stuff but recently he's had two big productions, with studio distribution.
He and I have been best friends for 16 years and I must admit he's prone to such statements. We do often clash with films. We once spent an entire sunday arguing about the merrits or lack thereof of iRobot and Cloverfield. On both counts I liked he disliked. Later he did a complete about turn and decided they are good flicks after all!

However from a professional view I think he almost has to be somewhat petulant. It helps him up his game, and forces him to really understand his craft. It's a process born out of frustration at not yet being asked to DOP for the film equivalent, in visual style, to Blade Runner (Surely the cinematographer's wet dream).

A few of us often rib him about the fact that he's just blowing hot air until the day he finally gets that gig with Michael Bay to be DOP on Bad Boys III.

However in his defence I should say that he often enjoys Nolan's films at the time, but is later burdened with a sort of retrospective distate. This happened with Inception and with Memento. I sort of understand it about Memento as it is a bit of a one trick pony. But it's done well. So fair enough.

By the way. I totally agree with you're assessment of Batman Returns. I loved DeVito as the Penguin. Fella should have had an Oscar for that performance! (Off topic -- Your favourite Burton film? I'm curious because I'm indeed a fan of his too)
Laters

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Thursday, June 30, 2011 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I guess I should fill in the gaps regarding my friend. He isn't a student. Far from it, he is a porfessional cinematographer and must be in his tenth year as a DOP by now -- or close to it.

I didn't actually think that he was a student just that his comment reminded me of some I've known. Maybe he just has the mental age of one.

Quote:

I must admit he's prone to such statements. We do often clash with films.
A few of us often rib him about the fact that he's just blowing hot air.
However in his defence I should say that he often enjoys Nolan's films at the time, but is later burdened with a sort of retrospective distate.

I know someone like that but in a different way. I'll recommend some films I think he'll like and he'll reply that they look crap or boring or something along those lines. He'll 'begrudgingly' borrow a few to watch and when he returns them he'll be saying the same thing - that he didn't like them or that they were just okay. Then some time later he'll be telling me that he saw these films and they were great, classics etc. When I bring up his earlier comments he swears he never said that. He was a film student many years ago so that might explain part of it.

Quote:

By the way. I totally agree with you're assessment of Batman Returns. I loved DeVito as the Penguin. Fella should have had an Oscar for that performance! (Off topic -- Your favourite Burton film? I'm curious because I'm indeed a fan of his too)

Well thanks for the easy question!

Hmmm....fave Burton film?
I want to say Nightmare Before Xmas but he didn't direct that so I won't count it.
If I'm going to be real honest it would probably be Edward Scissorhands just because it seems to include all the things I like about his work. It has a sympathetic main character, off-kilter humour, an emotional side, characters you dislike and it's all wrapped up in a dark fantasy world.
This would be closely followed by Batman Returns, Corpse Bride, Batman, Beetlejuice and Big Fish (I have a soft spot for this type of story/film).
Then Sleepy Hollow, Sweeney Todd, Alice In Wonderland and Charlie And The Chocolate Factory. I didn't really like Mars Attacks, the less said about Planet Of The Apes the better and I haven't actually seen Ed Wood.
I think that's all the major releases?

So what's your fave Burton flick(s)?

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:52 PM

Scissorhands has it by a country mile. I love that film. The only thing that spoils this otherwise perfect film is Winona Rider; she's terrible in this. However it stands as a minor masterpiece!
Then I'd say it's Sleepy Hollow. I just love the design of it and I think it's maybe his best story/narrative.
Followed by
Beetlejuice
Batman Returns
Ed Wood (you should see it)
Big Fish
Pee Wee's Big adventure (It's just so sweet and simple)
Mars Attacks.
The rest, if I'm honest, I'd say I'm so so about.
Chocolate Factory I didn't like and while Apes has it's problems Giamatti wasn't one of them and I wish he'd work with him again. Thereafter, I've yet to see Alice or Sweeney Todd.

Charming beyond belief though is VINCENT !

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Thursday, June 30, 2011 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Scissorhands has it by a country mile. I love that film. The only thing that spoils this otherwise perfect film is Winona Rider; she's terrible in this. However it stands as a minor masterpiece!
Then I'd say it's Sleepy Hollow. I just love the design of it and I think it's maybe his best story/narrative.
Followed by
Beetlejuice
Batman Returns
Ed Wood (you should see it)
Big Fish
Pee Wee's Big adventure (It's just so sweet and simple)
Mars Attacks.
The rest, if I'm honest, I'd say I'm so so about.
Chocolate Factory I didn't like and while Apes has it's problems Giamatti wasn't one of them and I wish he'd work with him again. Thereafter, I've yet to see Alice or Sweeney Todd.

Charming beyond belief though is VINCENT !

Nice that we agree on Edward Scissorhands as it is such a beautiful movie. I get what you mean about Winona Ryder as well, she wasn't very good and I've never considered her a good actress, but in some ways it seems to fit her character of a naive, innocent teenager who is 'controlled' by others.
Sleepy Hollow would have been higher on my list except that I've seen it so many times it has lost some of it's appeal. That's my fault not the film's and if it was a Best Of list it would be a lot higher.
The only reason I watched Sweeney Todd was because it was Burton. I don't like musicals at all but gave it a go and it looks brilliant, is well played but why do they have to sing!! Why couldn't he just do a non-musical version.
Alice In Wonderland looks fantastic (especially in HD) but that's kind of it. I like the story but it's been done so many times that it feels like the re-tread that it is. There is nothing in there to make it really stand out. He should have done something more akin to American McGee's Alice as they would be a perfect match.

I'll check out Ed Wood on your recommendation and try to find Vincent as well.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Friday, July 1, 2011 4:25 PM

I'm not into musicals either which is why I've not yet seen Sweeney Todd. I'm thinking I could go post modern and watch it without the sound and maybe even fast forward the 'numbers'... Might work? I've heard great things about the look of it and that makes it very compelling; at least for me anyway.

Vincent is a nifty little extra on the Nightmare Before Christmas DVD.

Oh and I forgot Frankenweenie too. That's also a little gem. Very sweet and brilliantly twisted :D

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 12:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I'm not into musicals either which is why I've not yet seen Sweeney Todd. I'm thinking I could go post modern and watch it without the sound and maybe even fast forward the 'numbers'... Might work? I've heard great things about the look of it and that makes it very compelling; at least for me anyway.

Vincent is a nifty little extra on the Nightmare Before Christmas DVD.

Oh and I forgot Frankenweenie too. That's also a little gem. Very sweet and brilliantly twisted :D

The visuals of Sweeney Todd are truly excellent. I would suggest hiring, borrowing or obtaining it by other means

because it is definitely worth one look as you like his other works. Plus a couple of the songs are okay and they all do their own singing which is a nice touch.

Vincent is on the Nightmare DVD? Strange I haven't noticed that. I hope it's also on the blu-ray as that's my only copy now. I muust go check it out.

Frankenweenie is great and I assume you know that he's redoing it. Due for release next year, I believe, and using some of his regular cast for the voice work. Looking forward to it already.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 2:28 PM

Edward Scissorhands is an absolute pinnacle of fantasy film-making. Definitely Burton's finest work all around. It's so great that I even liked the female lead in it- whatshername.

I have no doubt that if Nolan does a Superman film, it will be spectacular. But Burton's Batman flicks will always be my favourites.

@Som- The more I watch Batman Returns, the more I love it.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 2:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
We once spent an entire sunday arguing about the merrits or lack thereof of iRobot and Cloverfield.

Totally loved I,R, liked C a whole lot.
FYI

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 4:42 PM

Originally posted by lwaves:

Quote:

The visuals of Sweeney Todd are truly excellent. I would suggest hiring, borrowing or obtaining it by other means because it is definitely worth one look as you like his other works. Plus a couple of the songs are okay and they all do their own singing which is a nice touch.

Vincent is on the Nightmare DVD? Strange I haven't noticed that. I hope it's also on the blu-ray as that's my only copy now. I muust go check it out.

Frankenweenie is great and I assume you know that he's redoing it. Due for release next year, I believe, and using some of his regular cast for the voice work. Looking forward to it already.

O.K. Lwaves. You have convinced me to watch it. Very intrigued now :D

As for Vincent it does depend on which DVD edition you have. I used to have just a regular copy that had no extras. Then I was bought a special edition that had heaps of extras and I was like a pig in pooh. Loved all the behind the scenes on the model making!

Yes I read he's redoing Frankenweenie. Very much looking forward to it!

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 4:50 PM

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:
Edward Scissorhands is an absolute pinnacle of fantasy film-making. Definitely Burton's finest work all around. It's so great that I even liked the female lead in it- whatshername.

I have no doubt that if Nolan does a Superman film, it will be spectacular. But Burton's Batman flicks will always be my favourites.

@Som- The more I watch Batman Returns, the more I love it.

Hey Chris.
That's exactly the way I feel about BATMAN RETURNS. I just love the atmosphere and how twisted it is for a blockbuster. And DeVito-- well he was never better! And it's one of Danny Elfman's most assured scores along with Scissorhands.

Ryder in Scissorhands is just about trying and in parts it really shows, but the rest of the cast are so good throughout that it almost doesn't matter.

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 4:55 PM

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:
Totally loved I,R, liked C a whole lot.
FYI

I find new sci-fi films are viewed with great 'snobbery'. iRobot was a victim of this.

Cloverfield I loved! Though I should confess a weakness for monster flicks. So I'm loving what J.J. is doing for the genre. Super 8 a worthy addition to the style.

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
And it's one of Danny Elfman's most assured scores along with Scissorhands.

Elfman's ESH score was also his best IMHO. Just breathtaking. There was no pattern to follow; no expectations- just pure creativity.

The gorram movie breaks me down into tears EVERY time.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 10:14 PM

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

The gorram movie breaks me down into tears EVERY time.

Yeah it's moving and I think it's Burton's best endings to any of his films

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Sunday, July 3, 2011 2:34 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

I find new sci-fi films are viewed with great 'snobbery'. iRobot was a victim of this.

I think (provided you pretend the blatent advert for overpriced sneakers didn't happen) iRobot worked really well as an attempt to make an action movie out of a collection of fairly cerebral engineering-puzzle stories.

The frustration is that so many SF films have to go down the "action" route - films in other genres that don't involve lots of shit blowing up get made somehow but non-action SF films are rare and precious beasts. Asimov's "Elijah Bailey" stories would make good films, but there's only about one "action" scene in each book, so they'd need to be shot in the style of Inspector Morse or Colombo.

NB: Talking of Batman, apparently they've been shooting The Dark Night Rises about half a mile from where I live...

http://thebatmanuniverse.net/tag/wollaton-hall/

...except I was stuck in a week-long meeting in Holland while it was going on. Boo.

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Sunday, July 3, 2011 5:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
Talking of Batman, apparently they've been shooting The Dark Night Rises about half a mile from where I live...

http://thebatmanuniverse.net/tag/wollaton-hall/

...except I was stuck in a week-long meeting in Holland while it was going on. Boo.

I'm not quite as close as half a mile (I live a few miles south of Leicester) but it's still the closest I've ever lived to a movie set. It's very suitable as Wayne Manor. Might just have to check the place out at a later date.

And for further non-locals info if you headed directly south from Wollaton Hall you'd find a little village called Gotham!! Nothing to do with the films, just a related name.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Sunday, July 3, 2011 6:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I find new sci-fi films are viewed with great 'snobbery'. iRobot was a victim of this.

Cloverfield I loved! Though I should confess a weakness for monster flicks. So I'm loving what J.J. is doing for the genre. Super 8 a worthy addition to the style.

I also love Cloverfield (I, Robot is great too) and was expecting Super 8 to be similar but in small town America instead of the city. It was much better than that and is a great pastiche of Spielberg's works from that time.

I also agree with the 'snobbery' towards sci-fi. And to the people who make sci-fi. JJ Abrams has had some stick for Super 8 yet, to me, he has tried to do a well worn story from a different POV instead of just going down the straight forward 'monster attacks people' route. There's very little (if any) true originality left so if he can keep seeing things differently then I'll keep watching his movies/TV.
If folks want the same thing over and over with no substance then they can watch a Transformers movie.

"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Sunday, July 3, 2011 11:28 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:
And for further non-locals info if you headed directly south from Wollaton Hall you'd find a little village called Gotham!! Nothing to do with the films, just a related name.

Gotham, Nottinghamshire is probably the source of the name of Batmans 'hood, albeit via an indirect route: Its the source of the legend of the "Wise Men Of Gotham" (in which the locals pretend to be loonies in order to put the King off building there) - this led to the name being used as a nickname for New York, which was picked up by the writers of Batman. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotham,_Nottinghamshire

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Sunday, July 3, 2011 1:40 PM

Originally posted by ImNotHere:

Quote:
NB: Talking of Batman, apparently they've been shooting The Dark Night Rises about half a mile from where I live...

If ever there was a time to use your signame as a play on words it was THIS POST!!

Anyway. I get your point about the need to shoehorn action into sci-fi being a little frustrating, but it's one of those, damned if you do, damned if you don't moments. Seems folk are so picky with the sci-fi genre.

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Sunday, July 3, 2011 2:02 PM

Originally posted by lwaves:

Quote:
I also love Cloverfield (I, Robot is great too) and was expecting Super 8 to be similar but in small town America instead of the city. It was much better than that and is a great pastiche of Spielberg's works from that time.

I also agree with the 'snobbery' towards sci-fi. And to the people who make sci-fi. JJ Abrams has had some stick for Super 8 yet, to me, he has tried to do a well worn story from a different POV instead of just going down the straight forward 'monster attacks people' route. There's very little (if any) true originality left so if he can keep seeing things differently then I'll keep watching his movies/TV.
If folks want the same thing over and over with no substance then they can watch a Transformers movie.

Indeed Lwaves. I like what J.J. is bringing to cinema. He is trying to entertain but also maintain a degree of plot and narrative that relate to the concept. (not too dissimilar to Spielberg)

I took my nephew, who is 13, to see Super 8 and he loved it so much! He just couldn't stop talking about it. He was so excited at the whole idea. The reason being that he and his friends go out and make their own films together too. And he could engage with the idea on a very profound level. So for him Super 8 will be one of the films of his childhood. And that's kinda how it should be really.

As i become older I realise the sort of people who watch films and destroy the magic of them are really all my friends; who are basically just getting old and boring. They can't engage on the same level. Me too to an extent. We all know how the tricks are done so it's almost impossible to become wrapped up in the wonder anymore.

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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 11:58 AM